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  1. #41
    Hmm... fanatic then?
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  2. #42
    Anon, we are legion Kretoxian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brote Heckler
    Hmm... fanatic then?
    No, "Fanatic" fits well for a person, but not for a government.
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  3. #43

    Thumbs up

    I agree with the idea that Maoist should be the CW equivilant of Stalinist - it applies to the more extreme version of Communism practiced by Mao's PRC, the Khmer Rouge, and the DPRK.

    The label of Communist fits well for the Soviet Union and its satellites but maybe International Communist would fit better, since it refers to this particular time period and is distinct from the nation/personality-centric Stalinism (or Maoism, as we would have it now). This would also make sense for Vietnam as it was less extreme than its neighbors and it took a more Soviet model after the Vietnam War, in opposition to the Maoists. Also International Communist perfectly fits the regime style of the Warsaw Pact as well as Latin American regimes, should they decide to become more belligerent.

    My opinion for the extreme on the Right would be Ideological Counterrevolutionary (or perhaps Totalitarian Traditionalist) for countries with a completely closed society and National Syndicalist for those which are all the way on the Right but maintain state capitalism and perhaps a less closed society. This last one would more accurately describe South American Rightists than the diluted and rhetorical term of Fascist, even though the words are supposed to mean the same thing.
    If there was a modifier for Ecclesiastical influence then we could have Falangists and Islamic Republics, but that obviously comes at the expense of a more important one, so a more generic "totalitarian" (or ideological) label probably covers more ground with less of the semantics.

    One thing that should change is Paternal Autocrat. It covers too much ground and, in vanilla, applies to nations that may not actually have such a system. This is always what happens when I play as France and try to turn it into a rightist state, even though that wouldn't imply a modern succession. I think nations like Taiwan and South Korea would be better represented by a more abstract term, like Nationalist Autocracy or simply Counterrevolutionary, as those can allow more leeway in a country's economic model while still being decidedly non-communist.
    Last edited by Foot Cavalry; 01-12-2007 at 02:53.

  4. #44
    Anon, we are legion Kretoxian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foot Cavalry
    The label of Communist fits well for the Soviet Union and its satellites but maybe International Communist would fit better, since it refers to this particular time period and is distinct from the nation/personality-centric Stalinism (or Maoism, as we would have it now). This would also make sense for Vietnam as it was less extreme than its neighbors and it took a more Soviet model after the Vietnam War, in opposition to the Maoists. Also International Communist perfectly fits the regime style of the Warsaw Pact as well as Latin American regimes, should they decide to become more belligerent.
    Well, it would be only a minor change (IE adding just one word) so i agree with this, however before making any "official" change i want to hear more opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Foot Cavalry
    My opinion for the extreme on the Right would be Ideological Counterrevolutionary (or perhaps Totalitarian Traditionalist) for countries with a completely closed society and National Syndicalist for those which are all the way on the Right but maintain state capitalism and perhaps a less closed society. This last one would more accurately describe South American Rightists than the diluted and rhetorical term of Fascist, even though the words are supposed to mean the same thing.
    If there was a modifier for Ecclesiastical influence then we could have Falangists and Islamic Republics, but that obviously comes at the expense of a more important one, so a more generic "totalitarian" (or ideological) label probably covers more ground with less of the semantics.
    So, let me see if i understand your proposal:
    FA --> National Syndicalist
    NS --> Ideological Totalitarian (or just "totalitarian")

    Seems good to me except for the National Syndicalist one, which, looks too much like Kaiserreich.

    Other thing that you must remember is that the ideology matrix should not be conceived in the communism vs capitalism terms, that's why i discarded the "counterrevolutionary" name.

    Quote Originally Posted by Foot Cavalry
    One thing that should change is Paternal Autocrat. It covers too much ground and, in vanilla, applies to nations that may not actually have such a system. This is always what happens when I play as France and try to turn it into a rightist state, even though that wouldn't imply a modern succession. I think nations like Taiwan and South Korea would be better represented by a more abstract term, like Nationalist Autocracy or simply Counterrevolutionary, as those can allow more leeway in a country's economic model while still being decidedly non-communist.
    Then PA --> National Autocracy (i prefer "National" instead "Nationalist")

    I agree with this one but before making any official change i would like to hear more opinions.
    Last edited by Kretoxian; 01-12-2007 at 12:25.
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  5. #45
    So, let me see if i understand your proposal:
    FA --> National Syndicalist
    NS --> Ideological Totalitarian (or just "totalitarian")

    Seems good to me except for the National Syndicalist one, which, looks too much like Kaiserreich.

    Other thing that you must remember is that the ideology matrix should not be conceived in the communism vs capitalism terms, that's why i discarded the "counterrevolutionary" name.
    That's basically it: Fascist would become NS and retain or even gain meaning in that. It is a state controlled economy to a large extent but not fully socialist, and also Rightist. It is a big movement in modern Latin America among rightists and probably describes Pinochet accurately.
    I agree that Counterrevolutionary may not be the best, since it sounds too much like communist parlance rather than being simple or objective. Totalitarian (with an appropriate descriptor if needed) seems good.
    On that same note, I think it would be a good move to change Market Liberal to simply Capitalist or maybe Market Republic or something similar. My reasoning is that, by this point, economic practice within a nation supersedes the classic definition of liberalism, and sounds more neutral/objective, despite the historical/conservative connotations that ideologues give to the term "Capitalist." Instead of Social Democrat, which is decidedly early-20th century, why not Constitutional Republic? That fits France, West Germany, etc. very well.

  6. #46
    Anon, we are legion Kretoxian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foot Cavalry
    On that same note, I think it would be a good move to change Market Liberal to simply Capitalist or maybe Market Republic or something similar. My reasoning is that, by this point, economic practice within a nation supersedes the classic definition of liberalism, and sounds more neutral/objective, despite the historical/conservative connotations that ideologues give to the term "Capitalist." Instead of Social Democrat, which is decidedly early-20th century, why not Constitutional Republic? That fits France, West Germany, etc. very well.
    No, the democratic ideology Matrix is well just as it is now.

    Oh and FGR and France are a constitutional republic yes, but west Germany is and was, a feud of the Christian Democracy (Social Conservative Ideology) while France has been always more like Social Liberal.

    And about the "Social Democrat" term, it could be created in early XXcent. but it's still a valid term because almost every country in the face of the earth has a Social Democrat party nowadays and there are some countries that can be tagged with that ideology (the Scandinavian ones)

    Here you have a list of Social Democratic parties of the world:
    http://www.broadleft.org/socdem.htm
    Last edited by Kretoxian; 01-12-2007 at 21:11.
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  7. #47
    It is a big movement in modern Latin America among rightists and probably describes Pinochet accurately.
    Pinochet was actually a free-market crusader.

    Totalitarian (with an appropriate descriptor if needed) seems good.
    Every ideology strives towards totalitarianism. (remember how in HOI you always strive to keep your dissent level at 0% ?) There are no exceptions to this rule, so it sounds like a bad label.

    I think it would be a good move to change Market Liberal to simply Capitalist.
    Capitalism is not an ideology but an economic system. Just like with "totalitarian", too many nations qualify for this label. Hell, many people and historians today even refer to Nazi Germany as capitalist and Soviet Union as "state capitalist" or something to that extent. Basically, every state that exists or existed on this planet since the industrial revolution has been referred to as "capitalist".

    Instead of Social Democrat, which is decidedly early-20th century, why not Constitutional Republic
    How about the fact that "Constitutional Republic" is a system of government, not an ideology? How about the fact that you would end up having both West Germany and Soviet Union under same label, because, you know, both of them are Republics with Constitutions? The Cold War would then essentially be between Constitutional Republics (US, USSR, France, etc) and Constitutional Monarchies (UK, Japan, Spain, etc). That's not exactly the historic version of Cold War, is it?
    And I wonder what is it that makes you think Social Democracy is "decidedly early-20th century", even though a crapload of political parties today are still using this label to the fullest, including some of the biggest political parties.

  8. #48
    How about the fact that "Constitutional Republic" is a system of government, not an ideology? How about the fact that you would end up having both West Germany and Soviet Union under same label, because, you know, both of them are Republics with Constitutions? The Cold War would then essentially be between Constitutional Republics (US, USSR, France, etc) and Constitutional Monarchies (UK, Japan, Spain, etc). That's not exactly the historic version of Cold War, is it?
    In name they may both be contained by a Constitution but should not be seriously applied to most of these nations. The Soviet Union never called itself "Stalinist" under Stalin's rule but that is accurate. The same should apply with Nations that are governed by some type of Constitution over an arbitrary system.


    And I wonder what is it that makes you think Social Democracy is "decidedly early-20th century", even though a crapload of political parties today are still using this label to the fullest, including some of the biggest political parties.
    The other guy already made this point and provided evidence as well.

  9. #49
    In name they may both be contained by a Constitution but should not be seriously applied to most of these nations.
    Why not? Even if you have evidence that USSR violated its own constitution, (which I doubt you do) still, same could be claimed about various other countries. Just look at the number of people in US yelling "this is unconstitutional!" every time they happen to disagree with anything present or past. Oh, and by the way, I am not even sure if Britain can be called a constitutional monarchy, since it has never bothered to have a constitution.

    The other guy already made this point and provided evidence as well.
    I reinforced the point this "other guy" was making

    by the way, I'm sorry for lack of activity and testing the new version, I can't do much right now because i have finals and stuff, you know college shit.
    Last edited by kami888; 15-12-2007 at 05:03.

  10. #50
    Anon, we are legion Kretoxian's Avatar
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    "The other guy" answering

    Quote Originally Posted by kami888
    Why not? Even if you have evidence that USSR violated its own constitution, (which I doubt you do) still, same could be claimed about various other countries. Just look at the number of people in US yelling "this is unconstitutional!" every time they happen to disagree with anything present or past. Oh, and by the way, I am not even sure if Britain can be called a constitutional monarchy, since it has never bothered to have a constitution.
    Just a comment, actually U.K. is a democratic-parliamentary monarchy, that's the best tag for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kami888
    by the way, I'm sorry for lack of activity and testing the new version, I can't do much right now because i have finals and stuff, you know college shit.
    Don't worry i'm in the same situation.
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  11. #51
    Anon, we are legion Kretoxian's Avatar
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    This humoristical test gave me an idea about the right wing non democrat ideologies, let's see:

    NS: Religious dictatorship?? (fanatical dictatorship in the test)
    FA: Imperial dictatorship
    PA: Dictatorship --> Just that or "paternal autocrat"

    What do you think?

    PS: Don't comment the results of the test here please.
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  12. #52
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    The ideology matrix is intended to show political leanings not the form of government.

    There are plenty of monarchies that are 'democratic' in that the people control the government or that the government follows the will of the people. Also, there are plenty of monarchies that are despotic and cruel.

    You can have right-wing dictatorships and left-wing dictatorships. The ideological matrix probably only needed tweaking. A more general term for fascism and National Socialism need to be found that are unrelated to the type of government. I could see Fundamentalist used as this describes various political movements. Also, Nationalist is probably a weaker strain of Fundamentalist.

    The proposed terms for new commie strains sound good.

  13. #53
    Anon, we are legion Kretoxian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerWilly
    The ideology matrix is intended to show political leanings not the form of government.

    There are plenty of monarchies that are 'democratic' in that the people control the government or that the government follows the will of the people. Also, there are plenty of monarchies that are despotic and cruel.

    You can have right-wing dictatorships and left-wing dictatorships. The ideological matrix probably only needed tweaking. A more general term for fascism and National Socialism need to be found that are unrelated to the type of government. I could see Fundamentalist used as this describes various political movements. Also, Nationalist is probably a weaker strain of Fundamentalist.

    The proposed terms for new commie strains sound good.

    This is hwo the ideologies are now:
    Code:
    CATEGORY_NATIONAL_SOCIALIST;Religious Dictatorship;;;;;;;;;;X
    CATEGORY_FASCIST;Nationalist Dictatorship;;;;;;;;;;;X
    CATEGORY_PATERNAL_AUTOCRAT;Paternal Autocrat;;;;;;;;;;;X
    CATEGORY_SOCIAL_CONSERVATIVE;Social Conservative;;;;;;;;;;;X
    CATEGORY_MARKET_LIBERAL;Market Liberal;;;;;;;;;;;X
    CATEGORY_SOCIAL_LIBERAL;Social Liberal;;;;;;;;;;;X
    CATEGORY_SOCIAL_DEMOCRAT;Social Democrat;;;;;;;;;;;X
    CATEGORY_LEFT_WING_RADICAL;Left Wing Radical;;;;;;;;;;;X
    CATEGORY_LENINIST;Communist;;;;;;;;;;;;X
    CATEGORY_STALINIST;Maoist;;;;;;;;;;;;X
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  14. #54
    Eternal leader of all Ducks The Great Duck's Avatar

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    Well,a far right dictatorship doesn't need to be religious...and it only fits Iran,IMHO.
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  15. #55
    Anon, we are legion Kretoxian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great Duck
    Well,a far right dictatorship doesn't need to be religious...and it only fits Iran,IMHO.
    Yeah, but i was thinking the NS ideology like a special case, they are not rightist or leftist, they're just fundamentalist, so perhaps a change in ideology matrix should be made, something like this:

    Code:
    #; Left <-> Right (1-10)
    #; Democratic
    SD;SL;SL;SL;SL;ML;ML;ML;ML;SC;x
    SD;SD;SL;SL;SL;ML;ML;ML;SC;SC;x
    SD;SD;SD;SL;SL;ML;ML;SC;SC;SC;x
    LWR;SD;SD;SD;SL;ML;SC;SC;SC;PA;x
    LWR;LWR;SD;SD;SD;SC;SC;SC;PA;PA;x
    LE;LWR;LWR;SD;SD;SC;SC;PA;PA;FA;x
    LE;LE;LWR;LWR;SD;SC;PA;PA;FA;FA;x
    ST;LE;LE;LWR;LWR;PA;PA;FA;FA;FA;x
    ST;ST;LE;LE;LWR;PA;FA;FA;FA;FA;x
    FA;FA;FA;FA;NS;NS;NS;NS;NS;NS;x
    #; Anti-Democratic
    EOF;;;;;;;X
    Where the last line is the ideologies for zero democracy, and therefore the Religious dictatorships only appear there.
    Iran only? and what about the Talibans in Afghanistan? i think that if we start searching we can find a bunch of possible Religious dictators in almost every country of the world.
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  16. #56
    I think Religious Dictatorship fits Saudi Arabia way better than Iran. Paternal Autocrat could be best for the latter. The President is elected with universal suffrage, just like the local authorities (city councils and such). I cant see how a democracy slider of zero could be justified in this case.
    On the other hand, the Shah government of the 1955 should fall under the "Dictatorship" umbrella (traditional dictatorship, perhaps) and Iran should be an American puppet.

  17. #57
    Eternal leader of all Ducks The Great Duck's Avatar

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    Well,that is the reason why I was against NS to be Religious dictatorship.A country can be a theocracy and fit in PA,as well as NS.
    BTW,I think it would be good to change Nationalist Dictatorship to just Nationalist.It is a bit silly for the ministers ideology to be "Nationalist Dictatorship".
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  18. #58
    Anon, we are legion Kretoxian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great Duck
    Well,that is the reason why I was against NS to be Religious dictatorship.A country can be a theocracy and fit in PA,as well as NS.
    BTW,I think it would be good to change Nationalist Dictatorship to just Nationalist.It is a bit silly for the ministers ideology to be "Nationalist Dictatorship".
    Ok, let's park the theme of the NS ideology until we have to deal with it ok?.

    About the National (or perhaps even better, National Autocracy) ideology, it's just a minor detail. So i don't know what to do, it just don't bother.
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  19. #59
    The system seemed fine enough in vanilla. Maybe Stalinism and National Socialism need to be written out and Leninism renamed Communism. Paternal Autocracy is a wonderful name for right-wing, non-fascist dictatorships. Left-Wing Radical is a bad name. Progressive Autocracy would be better. Vanilla didn't deem the differences between Asian monarchies and American caudillates worth mentioning. I don't think the ideological differences between Moscow and Beijing are that grave either. I've always felt the split was over nationalism (Russia is a very old, very big, very proud country and China is even more so) and the fact that Brezhnev was sane and Mao and his international supporters (Pol, Hoxha, Kim?) were anything but.

    Come to think of it, the split between ST/LE and NS/FA in vanilla seem to be mostly about the mental health of the autocrats in question. Hmm...

  20. #60
    If I may just throw my two cents in, to give a communist's view of the whole spiel....

    The Sino-Soviet split was over the issue of revisionism- Kruschev reintroducing limited private property, his policy of 'peaceful coexistence' with the west, and the rampant careerism and cronyism practiced by the leaders of the post-Stalin USSR.

    Though the post-Stalin USSR still professed to be Marxist-Leninist, they were often referred to as 'Eurocommunist' which reflects their less radical nature- I think this would be the perfect substitute for 'Leninist'.

    One problem I had with the original ideology matrix was the difference between Leninism and Stalinism, when in fact the two are synonymous- Stalin's policies are Lenin's theory put into practice. Absolute hardline communism, in my opinion (absolute authoritarian, absolute left), should just be plain 'Marxism-Leninism'.

    'Castroite' or 'Castroism' isn't really a word... As a substitute for 'Left-Wing Radical' I'd use "Titoite", as Titoism (a la Josip Broz Tito) - reflecting all the pseudo-socialistic nations that were left-leaning but not officially aligned with the Eurocommunist or the Anti-Revisionist blocs- (for example, Nasser's Egypt, Tito's Yugoslavia, Saddam Hussein's Iraq)

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