• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
I got a question here which yome of you, especially those who live in China or at least close to it, might be able to answer.

I looked for some information on this a long time but didn't find anything... did those warlord Cliques in China have some sort of flags, banners or anything of that sort? I hardly believe those flags HoI offers are historical (except for the chinese symbols which refer to the cliques from what I can see).

Thanks in advance for any information you can offer.
 
KeldorKatarn said:
I got a question here which yome of you, especially those who live in China or at least close to it, might be able to answer.

I looked for some information on this a long time but didn't find anything... did those warlord Cliques in China have some sort of flags, banners or anything of that sort? I hardly believe those flags HoI offers are historical (except for the chinese symbols which refer to the cliques from what I can see).

Thanks in advance for any information you can offer.

No. After the North Expedition in 1928, China was unified in "name" of the Nationalist government, so they all flew the same ROC flag. And of course, the warlords presented in the game were all Nationalists, but belonged to different cliques in the party I guess.

What I do in the game is that I change Guangxi, Yunnan, Shanxi, and Ma's flags to the Nationalist flag for historical accuracy. But why not the Sinkiang flag? Well, since there have been people who wanted Sinkiang to break away from China, chaging flag for it would not make any sense if it wins "full" independence from China and still uses China's national flag, right?
The only drawback of this is that when you are doing diplomatic things, you'll have to really read the names instead of look at the flags, and it's sort of confusing in battle.
 
clanjay1989 said:
No. After the North Expedition in 1928, China was unified in "name" of the Nationalist government, so they all flew the same ROC flag. And of course, the warlords presented in the game were all Nationalists, but belonged to different cliques in the party I guess.

What I do in the game is that I change Guangxi, Yunnan, Shanxi, and Ma's flags to the Nationalist flag for historical accuracy. But why not the Sinkiang flag? Well, since there have been people who wanted Sinkiang to break away from China, chaging flag for it would not make any sense if it wins "full" independence from China and still uses China's national flag, right?

Well at least for Xibei San Ma I found the flag to be confirmed, just for Guangxi, Yunnan and Shanxi I didn't find anything.
Currently I'm using phantasy flags featuring the chinese names of the Cliques.

So you guys would say taking the Republican Chinese flag for Shanxi, Yunnan and Guangxi would be best?

There has also been a discussion whether the nationalists should be called "Republic of China" or "Kuomintang" to represent the status of that area in 1936 best, and only rename it to republic of China after the war against China before the civil war breaks out...

I must say the entire warlord era and the following decade until 1937 is quite confusing for me looking at it from the outside... Maybe because there is not really any source around going into much detail there.
 
Last edited:
KeldorKatarn said:
There has also been a discussion whether the nationalists should be called "Republic of China" or "Kuomintang" to represent the status of that area in 1936 best, and only rename it to republic of China after the war against China before the civil war breaks out...

I must say the entire warlord era and the following decade until 1937 is quite confusing for me looking at it from the outside... Maybe because there is not really any source around going into much detail there.
Can't change country name in-game...

Civil War in a nutshell:

Sun Yat-sen was an idiot.
He appointed a president (how democratic) who wanted to be emperor.
Regional governors revolted.
Commies formed into bands.
Warlords fight with each other.
Some of them fight the commies, some ally with them. One being KMT. :rolleyes:
KMT get Soviet and some warlord support and retake the south, becoming the legitimate CHI government.
KMT betrays Soviets and purge commies.
Warlords unsuccessfully attack KMT.
Japan occupies Manchuria, Rehe, Chahar, etc; KMT did jacksquat. Guangxi is pissed, and attacks KMT unsuccessfully. (aka the June '36 event)
KMT get German support; reform army.
Japan attacks! oh noes...
KMT cooperate with warlords and commies.
KMT backstab commies!
Commies pissed; stop fighting Japanese.
Americans defeat Japan; Soviets occupy Manchuria.
Commies attack KMT!
KMT gradually loses.
KMT flees to Taiwan.
Commies attack Taiwan several times.
KMT starts to lose Taiwan.
Cappies (formerly commies) try to help KMT out by intimidating Taiwanese Independence forces... unsuccessfully.
KMT loses Taiwan.

THE END

Well that was pretty long actually...
 
mib said:
Can't change country name in-game...

Can be done by switching TAGs. A little complicated but doable.

Anyway.. so you would say the only historically accurate way would be do give the three Cliques in the game the Nat China flag as well?

As I said I am right now using fantasy battle flags for them to make them a little more distinguishable. Somehow I think giving them all the same flag will make them even more confusing for people not familiar with Chinese history.

Any other opinions?

Btw.. thanks for that.. summary ;)
 
mib said:
KMT did jacksquat. Guangxi is pissed, and attacks KMT unsuccessfully. (aka the June '36 event)

Guangxi itself was Nationalist...

KMT starts to lose Taiwan.
Cappies (formerly commies) try to help KMT out by intimidating Taiwanese Independence forces... unsuccessfully.
KMT loses Taiwan.

No way! We'll probably figure it out next year in the presidential election...Just a complaint...I couldn't understand that why so many people felt regret for what they have voted for on the election day and started blaming politicians for not fulfilling their expectations for another 4 years...Same thing happens here in the United States, too. That's probably the most interesting thing about democracy...

Anyway...Even though I am Taiwanese, I STRONGLY deter the so-called Taiwanese independence movement...It is best that the island stays under the banner of the Republic of China...And you are right, I'm a Chinese patriot! :)

KeldorKatarn said:
There has also been a discussion whether the nationalists should be called "Republic of China" or "Kuomintang" to represent the status of that area in 1936 best, and only rename it to republic of China after the war against China before the civil war breaks out...

First of all, I don't like the name KMT since it's Chinese(not that I don't like my own language), it just seems odd to people who do not know much about the history of China and its language. Wouldn't it be strange that we change Germany into NSDAP? That's the same idea. Changing Nationalist China into the ROC is OK, but I would also suggest changing the name of Communist China into the Chinese Soviet Republic, which is the name of the government the CCP uses in its Soviet zones before 1937. The reason why I'd favor that is because this would seem to be regime vs. regime, not like country vs. regime, you know what I'm saying? But I believe that'll require a lot of work if you want to pursue complete historical accuracy...You will have to create a new country called the PRC since the previous regime was officially incorporated into the ROC in 1937, so it no longer existed. And also a whole bunch of events if you plan a future civil war between the Nationalists and the Communists. I guess the Spanish Civil War events will provide quite a good example to this.

HOWEVER, it'll all depend on Mib, obviously. :p

I must say the entire warlord era and the following decade until 1937 is quite confusing for me looking at it from the outside... Maybe because there is not really any source around going into much detail there.

True, but pretty interesting(view from a historical way, not a patriotic way...)
 
clanjay1989 said:
Changing Nationalist China into the ROC is OK, but I would also suggest changing the name of Communist China into the Chinese Soviet Republic, which is the name of the government the CCP uses in its Soviet zones before 1937.

I actually planned that first, but got discuraged by the fact that this country was dissolved by 1934. So far I planned to name it "Chinese Red Army" instead and use their war flag. Do you think it would still be valid to call it Chinese Soviet Republik?


Also.. what is your final go on Clique "Country Names" and Flags. keep the clique names and use the Republican Flag for them all?
I'm trying to find a way that is a little more understandable and distinguishable and still as historically accurate as possible...
 
KeldorKatarn said:
I actually planned that first, but got discuraged by the fact that this country was dissolved by 1934. So far I planned to name it "Chinese Red Army" instead and use their war flag. Do you think it would still be valid to call it Chinese Soviet Republik?

Hmm......Maybe Communist China will just work for me.

Also.. what is your final go on Clique "Country Names" and Flags. keep the clique names and use the Republican Flag for them all?
I'm trying to find a way that is a little more understandable and distinguishable and still as historically accurate as possible...

Yes, I did change flags for all three cliques. Here's a few screenshots of my game:

s1.jpg

War with Guangxi. Notice the "Guangxi" flag over the "Nationalist" flag on the upper left corner. One of the two drawbacks of using the identical flag.

s2.jpg

Yunnan and its flag

s3.jpg

Shanxi and its flag

s4.jpg

The other drawback that I mentioned...
 
KeldorKatarn said:
Can be done by switching TAGs. A little complicated but doable.

Anyway.. so you would say the only historically accurate way would be do give the three Cliques in the game the Nat China flag as well?

As I said I am right now using fantasy battle flags for them to make them a little more distinguishable. Somehow I think giving them all the same flag will make them even more confusing for people not familiar with Chinese history.

Any other opinions?

Btw.. thanks for that.. summary ;)
Switching tags to get a name change will possibly screw up events, ministers and AI, among other things. I think it's too much hassle for not much gain.
clanjay1989 said:
Guangxi itself was Nationalist...
Hmm yes, but not really central-government.
clanjay1989 said:
No way! We'll probably figure it out next year in the presidential election...Just a complaint...I couldn't understand that why so many people felt regret for what they have voted for on the election day and started blaming politicians for not fulfilling their expectations for another 4 years...Same thing happens here in the United States, too. That's probably the most interesting thing about democracy...
I hope that's true... But prevailing trends seem to suggest otherwise.
clanjay1989 said:
Anyway...Even though I am Taiwanese, I STRONGLY deter the so-called Taiwanese independence movement...It is best that the island stays under the banner of the Republic of China...And you are right, I'm a Chinese patriot! :)
同志! :cool:
clanjay1989 said:
First of all, I don't like the name KMT since it's Chinese(not that I don't like my own language), it just seems odd to people who do not know much about the history of China and its language. Wouldn't it be strange that we change Germany into NSDAP? That's the same idea. Changing Nationalist China into the ROC is OK, but I would also suggest changing the name of Communist China into the Chinese Soviet Republic, which is the name of the government the CCP uses in its Soviet zones before 1937. The reason why I'd favor that is because this would seem to be regime vs. regime, not like country vs. regime, you know what I'm saying? But I believe that'll require a lot of work if you want to pursue complete historical accuracy...You will have to create a new country called the PRC since the previous regime was officially incorporated into the ROC in 1937, so it no longer existed. And also a whole bunch of events if you plan a future civil war between the Nationalists and the Communists. I guess the Spanish Civil War events will provide quite a good example to this.

HOWEVER, it'll all depend on Mib, obviously. :p
As a firm believer of the One China Policy, I actually like the current setup very much. :Nationalist China" and "Communist China" suggest that both are factions of one country known as China. Quite politically orthodox and acceptable... ;)
 
mib said:
Switching tags to get a name change will possibly screw up events, ministers and AI, among other things. I think it's too much hassle for not much gain.

Shouldn't if both countries have the correct ministers and the events are written for the correct one...

Anyway.. giving the cliques the nationalist flags is something I'd really like to avoid- Is there a second-best solution which is still somewhat historically valid?
 
KeldorKatarn said:
Shouldn't if both countries have the correct ministers and the events are written for the correct one...
Switching TAGs ALWAYS screws up the game...currently active research projects still continue to be researched (by the Team from the original TAG) but, because those teams are removed progress is VERY SLOW (if any is made at all). Because of this you can have research blocked for years.
 
footefanatic said:
clanjay1989 where can I download the graphic mode that are you using for the Chinese leaders and banners?

Its much better than the vanilla set.

I must appreciate your compliment. In fact the leader/minister pictures and the flag were made by me, and there's some other stuff included in the pack...Check it out yourself!

Hopefully I'll have the spare time to look around and grab more pictures for both Chinas...but there's little progress recently... :(

Please click here to download
 
So can someone tell me again, why does Guangxi declare war on you in 1936?

I can't seem to find any info on it, except the Central Plains War some years before. Can I get any more context into that event? It would be appreciated.
 
Is v.1 still the latest public version?


never mind I made it work.
 
Last edited:
Hail of Nails said:
So can someone tell me again, why does Guangxi declare war on you in 1936?

I can't seem to find any info on it, except the Central Plains War some years before. Can I get any more context into that event? It would be appreciated.
They're mad at you for not standing up to Japanese aggression.