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Thread: Armageddon Consolidated China Improvement Pack

  1. #81
    I got a question here which yome of you, especially those who live in China or at least close to it, might be able to answer.

    I looked for some information on this a long time but didn't find anything... did those warlord Cliques in China have some sort of flags, banners or anything of that sort? I hardly believe those flags HoI offers are historical (except for the chinese symbols which refer to the cliques from what I can see).

    Thanks in advance for any information you can offer.

  2. #82
    Chinese Army 1st Class General clanjay1989's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeldorKatarn
    I got a question here which yome of you, especially those who live in China or at least close to it, might be able to answer.

    I looked for some information on this a long time but didn't find anything... did those warlord Cliques in China have some sort of flags, banners or anything of that sort? I hardly believe those flags HoI offers are historical (except for the chinese symbols which refer to the cliques from what I can see).

    Thanks in advance for any information you can offer.
    No. After the North Expedition in 1928, China was unified in "name" of the Nationalist government, so they all flew the same ROC flag. And of course, the warlords presented in the game were all Nationalists, but belonged to different cliques in the party I guess.

    What I do in the game is that I change Guangxi, Yunnan, Shanxi, and Ma's flags to the Nationalist flag for historical accuracy. But why not the Sinkiang flag? Well, since there have been people who wanted Sinkiang to break away from China, chaging flag for it would not make any sense if it wins "full" independence from China and still uses China's national flag, right?
    The only drawback of this is that when you are doing diplomatic things, you'll have to really read the names instead of look at the flags, and it's sort of confusing in battle.
    INTRODUCING THE.....

    Cooler China Image Project
    or the "CCIP"...Not really an effort to steal Mib's genuine project name, but this is a project intended to be an addition to Mib's CCIP Project.
    All you need to do is:
    First, download and install Mib's CCIP
    Second, download my CCIP Graphic Enhancement Project
    Lastly, say goodbye to Paradox's blurry pictures and enjoy!

    Click HERE for improvement pack for HOI3!! (Unfinished of course)

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by clanjay1989
    No. After the North Expedition in 1928, China was unified in "name" of the Nationalist government, so they all flew the same ROC flag. And of course, the warlords presented in the game were all Nationalists, but belonged to different cliques in the party I guess.

    What I do in the game is that I change Guangxi, Yunnan, Shanxi, and Ma's flags to the Nationalist flag for historical accuracy. But why not the Sinkiang flag? Well, since there have been people who wanted Sinkiang to break away from China, chaging flag for it would not make any sense if it wins "full" independence from China and still uses China's national flag, right?
    Well at least for Xibei San Ma I found the flag to be confirmed, just for Guangxi, Yunnan and Shanxi I didn't find anything.
    Currently I'm using phantasy flags featuring the chinese names of the Cliques.

    So you guys would say taking the Republican Chinese flag for Shanxi, Yunnan and Guangxi would be best?

    There has also been a discussion whether the nationalists should be called "Republic of China" or "Kuomintang" to represent the status of that area in 1936 best, and only rename it to republic of China after the war against China before the civil war breaks out...

    I must say the entire warlord era and the following decade until 1937 is quite confusing for me looking at it from the outside... Maybe because there is not really any source around going into much detail there.
    Last edited by KeldorKatarn; 30-07-2007 at 15:47.

  4. #84
    Custom User Title mib's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeldorKatarn
    There has also been a discussion whether the nationalists should be called "Republic of China" or "Kuomintang" to represent the status of that area in 1936 best, and only rename it to republic of China after the war against China before the civil war breaks out...

    I must say the entire warlord era and the following decade until 1937 is quite confusing for me looking at it from the outside... Maybe because there is not really any source around going into much detail there.
    Can't change country name in-game...

    Civil War in a nutshell:

    Sun Yat-sen was an idiot.
    He appointed a president (how democratic) who wanted to be emperor.
    Regional governors revolted.
    Commies formed into bands.
    Warlords fight with each other.
    Some of them fight the commies, some ally with them. One being KMT.
    KMT get Soviet and some warlord support and retake the south, becoming the legitimate CHI government.
    KMT betrays Soviets and purge commies.
    Warlords unsuccessfully attack KMT.
    Japan occupies Manchuria, Rehe, Chahar, etc; KMT did jacksquat. Guangxi is pissed, and attacks KMT unsuccessfully. (aka the June '36 event)
    KMT get German support; reform army.
    Japan attacks! oh noes...
    KMT cooperate with warlords and commies.
    KMT backstab commies!
    Commies pissed; stop fighting Japanese.
    Americans defeat Japan; Soviets occupy Manchuria.
    Commies attack KMT!
    KMT gradually loses.
    KMT flees to Taiwan.
    Commies attack Taiwan several times.
    KMT starts to lose Taiwan.
    Cappies (formerly commies) try to help KMT out by intimidating Taiwanese Independence forces... unsuccessfully.
    KMT loses Taiwan.

    THE END

    Well that was pretty long actually...
    Chinese Historical Improvements (CHI) Project for HOI3

    Consolidated China Improvement Pack (CCIP) for HOI2
    HOI2 | Doomsday | Armageddon | China players beware

  5. #85

  6. #86
    Valkyria Black Lotus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nigo
    up
    Up?
    "Politics. As exciting as war. Definitely as dangerous... Though in war, you can only get killed once. In politics it can happen over and over."

  7. #87

  8. #88
    Valkyria Black Lotus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nigo


    well

    I will make my question again

    when will see CCIP into SMEP?
    Ohhh, I didn't know you were replying to yourself, silly me.
    "Politics. As exciting as war. Definitely as dangerous... Though in war, you can only get killed once. In politics it can happen over and over."

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by mib
    Can't change country name in-game...
    Can be done by switching TAGs. A little complicated but doable.

    Anyway.. so you would say the only historically accurate way would be do give the three Cliques in the game the Nat China flag as well?

    As I said I am right now using fantasy battle flags for them to make them a little more distinguishable. Somehow I think giving them all the same flag will make them even more confusing for people not familiar with Chinese history.

    Any other opinions?

    Btw.. thanks for that.. summary

  10. #90
    Chinese Army 1st Class General clanjay1989's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mib
    KMT did jacksquat. Guangxi is pissed, and attacks KMT unsuccessfully. (aka the June '36 event)
    Guangxi itself was Nationalist...

    KMT starts to lose Taiwan.
    Cappies (formerly commies) try to help KMT out by intimidating Taiwanese Independence forces... unsuccessfully.
    KMT loses Taiwan.
    No way! We'll probably figure it out next year in the presidential election...Just a complaint...I couldn't understand that why so many people felt regret for what they have voted for on the election day and started blaming politicians for not fulfilling their expectations for another 4 years...Same thing happens here in the United States, too. That's probably the most interesting thing about democracy...

    Anyway...Even though I am Taiwanese, I STRONGLY deter the so-called Taiwanese independence movement...It is best that the island stays under the banner of the Republic of China...And you are right, I'm a Chinese patriot!

    Quote Originally Posted by KeldorKatarn

    There has also been a discussion whether the nationalists should be called "Republic of China" or "Kuomintang" to represent the status of that area in 1936 best, and only rename it to republic of China after the war against China before the civil war breaks out...
    First of all, I don't like the name KMT since it's Chinese(not that I don't like my own language), it just seems odd to people who do not know much about the history of China and its language. Wouldn't it be strange that we change Germany into NSDAP? That's the same idea. Changing Nationalist China into the ROC is OK, but I would also suggest changing the name of Communist China into the Chinese Soviet Republic, which is the name of the government the CCP uses in its Soviet zones before 1937. The reason why I'd favor that is because this would seem to be regime vs. regime, not like country vs. regime, you know what I'm saying? But I believe that'll require a lot of work if you want to pursue complete historical accuracy...You will have to create a new country called the PRC since the previous regime was officially incorporated into the ROC in 1937, so it no longer existed. And also a whole bunch of events if you plan a future civil war between the Nationalists and the Communists. I guess the Spanish Civil War events will provide quite a good example to this.

    HOWEVER, it'll all depend on Mib, obviously.

    I must say the entire warlord era and the following decade until 1937 is quite confusing for me looking at it from the outside... Maybe because there is not really any source around going into much detail there.
    True, but pretty interesting(view from a historical way, not a patriotic way...)
    INTRODUCING THE.....

    Cooler China Image Project
    or the "CCIP"...Not really an effort to steal Mib's genuine project name, but this is a project intended to be an addition to Mib's CCIP Project.
    All you need to do is:
    First, download and install Mib's CCIP
    Second, download my CCIP Graphic Enhancement Project
    Lastly, say goodbye to Paradox's blurry pictures and enjoy!

    Click HERE for improvement pack for HOI3!! (Unfinished of course)

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by clanjay1989
    Changing Nationalist China into the ROC is OK, but I would also suggest changing the name of Communist China into the Chinese Soviet Republic, which is the name of the government the CCP uses in its Soviet zones before 1937.
    I actually planned that first, but got discuraged by the fact that this country was dissolved by 1934. So far I planned to name it "Chinese Red Army" instead and use their war flag. Do you think it would still be valid to call it Chinese Soviet Republik?


    Also.. what is your final go on Clique "Country Names" and Flags. keep the clique names and use the Republican Flag for them all?
    I'm trying to find a way that is a little more understandable and distinguishable and still as historically accurate as possible...

  12. #92
    Chinese Army 1st Class General clanjay1989's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeldorKatarn
    I actually planned that first, but got discuraged by the fact that this country was dissolved by 1934. So far I planned to name it "Chinese Red Army" instead and use their war flag. Do you think it would still be valid to call it Chinese Soviet Republik?
    Hmm......Maybe Communist China will just work for me.

    Also.. what is your final go on Clique "Country Names" and Flags. keep the clique names and use the Republican Flag for them all?
    I'm trying to find a way that is a little more understandable and distinguishable and still as historically accurate as possible...
    Yes, I did change flags for all three cliques. Here's a few screenshots of my game:


    War with Guangxi. Notice the "Guangxi" flag over the "Nationalist" flag on the upper left corner. One of the two drawbacks of using the identical flag.


    Yunnan and its flag


    Shanxi and its flag


    The other drawback that I mentioned...
    INTRODUCING THE.....

    Cooler China Image Project
    or the "CCIP"...Not really an effort to steal Mib's genuine project name, but this is a project intended to be an addition to Mib's CCIP Project.
    All you need to do is:
    First, download and install Mib's CCIP
    Second, download my CCIP Graphic Enhancement Project
    Lastly, say goodbye to Paradox's blurry pictures and enjoy!

    Click HERE for improvement pack for HOI3!! (Unfinished of course)

  13. #93
    Custom User Title mib's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeldorKatarn
    Can be done by switching TAGs. A little complicated but doable.

    Anyway.. so you would say the only historically accurate way would be do give the three Cliques in the game the Nat China flag as well?

    As I said I am right now using fantasy battle flags for them to make them a little more distinguishable. Somehow I think giving them all the same flag will make them even more confusing for people not familiar with Chinese history.

    Any other opinions?

    Btw.. thanks for that.. summary
    Switching tags to get a name change will possibly screw up events, ministers and AI, among other things. I think it's too much hassle for not much gain.
    Quote Originally Posted by clanjay1989
    Guangxi itself was Nationalist...
    Hmm yes, but not really central-government.
    Quote Originally Posted by clanjay1989
    No way! We'll probably figure it out next year in the presidential election...Just a complaint...I couldn't understand that why so many people felt regret for what they have voted for on the election day and started blaming politicians for not fulfilling their expectations for another 4 years...Same thing happens here in the United States, too. That's probably the most interesting thing about democracy...
    I hope that's true... But prevailing trends seem to suggest otherwise.
    Quote Originally Posted by clanjay1989
    Anyway...Even though I am Taiwanese, I STRONGLY deter the so-called Taiwanese independence movement...It is best that the island stays under the banner of the Republic of China...And you are right, I'm a Chinese patriot!
    同志!
    Quote Originally Posted by clanjay1989
    First of all, I don't like the name KMT since it's Chinese(not that I don't like my own language), it just seems odd to people who do not know much about the history of China and its language. Wouldn't it be strange that we change Germany into NSDAP? That's the same idea. Changing Nationalist China into the ROC is OK, but I would also suggest changing the name of Communist China into the Chinese Soviet Republic, which is the name of the government the CCP uses in its Soviet zones before 1937. The reason why I'd favor that is because this would seem to be regime vs. regime, not like country vs. regime, you know what I'm saying? But I believe that'll require a lot of work if you want to pursue complete historical accuracy...You will have to create a new country called the PRC since the previous regime was officially incorporated into the ROC in 1937, so it no longer existed. And also a whole bunch of events if you plan a future civil war between the Nationalists and the Communists. I guess the Spanish Civil War events will provide quite a good example to this.

    HOWEVER, it'll all depend on Mib, obviously.
    As a firm believer of the One China Policy, I actually like the current setup very much. :Nationalist China" and "Communist China" suggest that both are factions of one country known as China. Quite politically orthodox and acceptable...
    Chinese Historical Improvements (CHI) Project for HOI3

    Consolidated China Improvement Pack (CCIP) for HOI2
    HOI2 | Doomsday | Armageddon | China players beware

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by mib
    Switching tags to get a name change will possibly screw up events, ministers and AI, among other things. I think it's too much hassle for not much gain.
    Shouldn't if both countries have the correct ministers and the events are written for the correct one...

    Anyway.. giving the cliques the nationalist flags is something I'd really like to avoid- Is there a second-best solution which is still somewhat historically valid?

  15. #95
    clanjay1989 where can I download the graphic mode that are you using for the Chinese leaders and banners?

    Its much better than the vanilla set.

  16. #96
    Field Marshal xtfoster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeldorKatarn
    Shouldn't if both countries have the correct ministers and the events are written for the correct one...
    Switching TAGs ALWAYS screws up the game...currently active research projects still continue to be researched (by the Team from the original TAG) but, because those teams are removed progress is VERY SLOW (if any is made at all). Because of this you can have research blocked for years.
    Beta Tester: HOI2-DD Armageddon 1.3 Patch
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    I am an American, not a United Statian, United Stater, USAian or any other PC alternative, live with it.

  17. #97
    Chinese Army 1st Class General clanjay1989's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by footefanatic
    clanjay1989 where can I download the graphic mode that are you using for the Chinese leaders and banners?

    Its much better than the vanilla set.
    I must appreciate your compliment. In fact the leader/minister pictures and the flag were made by me, and there's some other stuff included in the pack...Check it out yourself!

    Hopefully I'll have the spare time to look around and grab more pictures for both Chinas...but there's little progress recently...

    Please click here to download
    INTRODUCING THE.....

    Cooler China Image Project
    or the "CCIP"...Not really an effort to steal Mib's genuine project name, but this is a project intended to be an addition to Mib's CCIP Project.
    All you need to do is:
    First, download and install Mib's CCIP
    Second, download my CCIP Graphic Enhancement Project
    Lastly, say goodbye to Paradox's blurry pictures and enjoy!

    Click HERE for improvement pack for HOI3!! (Unfinished of course)

  18. #98
    First Lieutenant Hail of Nails's Avatar
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    So can someone tell me again, why does Guangxi declare war on you in 1936?

    I can't seem to find any info on it, except the Central Plains War some years before. Can I get any more context into that event? It would be appreciated.

  19. #99
    British Unionist trekaddict's Avatar
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    Is v.1 still the latest public version?


    never mind I made it work.
    Last edited by trekaddict; 01-08-2007 at 14:55.

  20. #100
    Field Marshal Moltke's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hail of Nails
    So can someone tell me again, why does Guangxi declare war on you in 1936?

    I can't seem to find any info on it, except the Central Plains War some years before. Can I get any more context into that event? It would be appreciated.
    They're mad at you for not standing up to Japanese aggression.

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