What is the difference between Ruthenians and Ukrainians?
(I grew up in Ukraine, and I'm ashamed not to know.)
(I grew up in Ukraine, and I'm ashamed not to know.)
Skovac said:(until 12th century Transcarpatia was part of Kievan Rus, after its dissolution part of Kingdom of Hungary, since 1918 part of Czechoslovakia and just from 1945 part of Ukraine again)
motiv-8 said:'Ruthenian' as I see it is a fabrication to disambiguate peoples from one another. The Eastern Slavs are basically divided into three groups, Russians, Ukrainians, and Belarussians. These groups never existed before ca. 1350, and came about primarily because of the Mongol invasion. Of course, some may see this is a gross simplification of a complicated process of ethnic divergence and crystallization, but its what I've taken from my Early Russian History course.
pithorr said:In the matter fact before 1350 any nation in Europe have not existed (in today standards) , not only Russian or Ruthenian but also Polish or French...
motiv-8 said:Err... that depends on what you mean by "today standards". France certainly existed as distinct from England and the German lands in almost every way short of its (much increasing) territorial integrity and cohesiveness. Hungary and Poland were beginning to thrive and expand.
Anyway, I'm not even referring to states in general, I was speaking more in linguistic or 'ethnic' terms.
igen7777 said:no, it newer was the part of the Rus state, it always belonged to the owner of the carpathian basin. the ruthenians were immigrants who migrated to the unpopulated areas of the nortwestern carpathians at the 12-13th century.
Bratislava is Pozsony, not Poszony in hungarian. it's original slovakian name is Prešporok
Vis(uz) said:"Nation" is pretty modern term that came with nationalism.
Simple peasant in 1350 really didn't bother in what state he lives (and often even didn't know). Even if he identified himself with something or someone it was only his landlord-master and/or his local village population.
Norman Davies says that people were "conscious of belonging...to a group possessing a local language whose members could communicate without recourse to Latin or Greek" (Europe: A History, 382).Skovac said:I found that "middle ages didnt know the concept of nation" a modern myth. Surely it wasnt matter of simple uneducated peasants, who never left village or area where they lived so they never met someone of different customs/language. To be aware of your nationality, you have to know people of the other. But in multinational cities (like in Bohemia or Hungary) there were common "national clashes". For example King Louis of Hungary granted to city Žilina, after many appeals of Slovak citizens, special chart "Pro Slavis" (in 1381) that stated that city council will be composed of 1/2 of SLOVAKS and 1/2 of GERMANS. Another example is the founding charter of Charles University in Prague (1348), that stated how many votes will CZECH professors have and how many GERMAN professors. As you see, nationality was clearly designated.
pithorr said:Really? You've just described how the states were forming, not nations
motiv-8 said:State-building in the Middle Ages and early modernity was based usually on one of two models; the multi-cultural empire ie Habsburg Austria and Ottoman Empire, and the nation-state ie France, Poland, Hungary (before 1526), Poland, Portugal, Spain.
Skovac said:I found that "middle ages didnt know the concept of nation" a modern myth. Surely it wasnt matter of simple uneducated peasants, who never left village or area where they lived so they never met someone of different customs/language. To be aware of your nationality, you have to know people of the other. But in multinational cities (like in Bohemia or Hungary) there were common "national clashes". For example King Louis of Hungary granted to city Žilina, after many appeals of Slovak citizens, special chart "Pro Slavis" (in 1381) that stated that city council will be composed of 1/2 of SLOVAKS and 1/2 of GERMANS. Another example is the founding charter of Charles University in Prague (1348), that stated how many votes will CZECH professors have and how many GERMAN professors. As you see, nationality was clearly designated.
Skovac said:Sorry, checked my sources again and I have to correct myself: it was under influence of Kiev until 10th century,
Skovac said:and since then it became gradually part of Kingdom of Hungary (there was power vacum, it still took Magyars some 200 years to control the whole Basin ).
Skovac said:so I dont see a way how would they overlook a place in the middle of this all
Skovac said:I found that "middle ages didnt know the concept of nation" a modern myth.
Lachlan said:Ukrainians are people who are citizens of the Republic of Ukraine, or are ethnic Ukrainians, or both.
As far as Ruthenians are concerned, there is a wide variety of definitions, which are detailed here.