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The Croix de Feu participated as a whole (and at de La Rocque's demand) to the demonstrations and subsequent riots, there's no doubts about that. Just like the Communists did, actually, but History books tend to overlook that inconvenient little fact.

Then what was his aim in having them partake in the riots? To topple a government through rioting doesn't seem like something a Legalist would do. And has your depiction of what happened in 1934 changed his personality from what it was IRL?

It'd be vexing if I was Tom Clancy's depicting how moral fiber, church-going virtue and my mom's apple pie drive America to a pure, unequivocal victory against the forces of evil and oppression! ;)
I thought that was what you're doing ;)

My France and Austria certainly have little in common, except their alliance with Italy and their being wary of Germany. On a totally different scale, of course, it's like Winnie Churchill allying with Uncle Joe, all in the name of freedom everywhere of course.
Well, if Austria's De La Rocque's devil...
Though it'll be interesting to see how France and the UK will treat each other once WWII starts.

It was rumored that de Gaulle attended a few Croix de Feu meetings - had it gone any further I'm pretty sure the story would have blown up decades ago. in 1939 France, a soldier didn't vote, and didn't get elected to anything except the Académie Française, so there probably was little point for de Gaulle in seeking closer ties. De Gaulle's own views about the military and the political leader, as exposed in his early books, ironically pleaded for a strict separation of the two. What de Gaulle needed was a political figure who'd defend his ideas, and he picked Reynaud, perhaps out of personal sympathy, perhaps because Reynaud was a more Centrist figure, thus twice as likely to have a ministerial seat than a more polarized politician.

My take on de Gaulle is that he stepped into French politics because French politicians had more or less resigned from their responsibilities. Take 1940 and Vichy away, and de Gaulle would have been just another French general with a particular axe to grind (at least his was the right one). In this alternate France, it is entirely possible that the term "Gaullist" will only apply to a small group of officers at the Ecole de Guerre.

Yes, I'd like to ask you what exactly happened in France from 1920-1958, but that's a pretty big question.

Wiki has its share of reliability issues - but not much more than any history book, actually, when one considers the bias shown by many Historians. As far as French modern history goes, I've so far found the English and French Wiki pages to be a quite reliable source.

I don't know, things like fact-checking and suchlike are a lot easier with proper books, and the bias becomes easier to spot when the author isn't some anonymous guy on the internet.

If anything, I think the refusal to lend a hand in overthrowing the Republic, which he reaffirmed several times in radio broadcats, public speeches, interviews and books is his best non-Fascism certificate. What kind of Fascist refuses to seize power when power is at hand?

One who was so clear-sighted about Fascism's failures as an ideology and as a system of government that he probably wouldn't be one.

He was an Action Française militant, he had shouted "death to the Jews" in the pre-war years, he was definitely not a republican, a democrat.

You seem to connect republicanism with democracy. Was or is there any French monarchist movements (to the extent that they exist today) that held a positive view on things like democracy and the Enlightenment?

De La Rocque started as pro-Pétain indeed, as it was pretty impossible for that generation of Frenchmen to think that the victor of Verdun held anything but contempt and hatred for Germany, and that collaboration with the old enemy could ever be part of his political platform.

What was the opinion of Petain amongst the generation born between 1880 and 1900 and when and why did it begin to change? Was it just the collaboration with der Böhmische korpral?

As early as June, 1940, de La Rocque wrote articles about loyalty to Pétain, but vigilance about Vichy. In August, 1940, he started to organize a resistance network, "Klan", that passed intel to the British intelligence. Some say the British asked him to remain neutrak towards Pétain, as it made his network's job easier, but I don't know what is true about that. Others like historian Jacques Nobécourt state de La Rocque refused until the end to admit that Pétain knew what was going on in Vichy.

But how willing would a French Nationalist be to collaborate with the British, particularly after events like Mers-el-Kébir?

Finally in 1943, he's arrested along with 152 officials of the Parti Social Français, and is deported.
And dies in 1946, about sixty years before a sociopathic French paper-pusher says "Hmm..." and starts writing about him :)

And as a final question, will France's colonies appear in any updates anytime soon?

Edit: Oh, and did they meet?
 
Then what was his aim in having them partake in the riots? To topple a government through rioting doesn't seem like something a Legalist would do. And has your depiction of what happened in 1934 changed his personality from what it was IRL?

The riots originated in massive demonstrations organized by the rightist leagues (and the Communists) to protest the involvement of politicians and officials in the "Stavisky affair" financial scandal. It was not a coup attempt, but rather a mass demonstration, demanding the immediate ousting of various ministers, that degenerates into full-blown riots. That riots ensured was a probability, but not, or at least not for every party involved, a certainty. The level of organization shown by the Croix de Feu is proof that de La Rocque expected violent clashes with the police, but that he made sure certain limits were not crossed also convinces me the Croix de Feu were not there to stage a coup, Fascist or not.


I thought that was what you're doing ;)

"Abortion is a crime, mumblegrumble, socialized medicine is akin to Stalinism! Mumbmemumble....damn libruls!"


Well, if Austria's De La Rocque's devil...

It certainly is, in the alliance family, "that cousin we never talk about".

Though it'll be interesting to see how France and the UK will treat each other once WWII starts.

With extreme caution most probably, in traditional Anglo-French manner.



Yes, I'd like to ask you what exactly happened in France from 1920-1958, but that's a pretty big question.

Particularly if you expect me to be exact about it! ;)


I don't know, things like fact-checking and suchlike are a lot easier with proper books, and the bias becomes easier to spot when the author isn't some anonymous guy on the internet.

On the other hand one might feel it easier to question a Wikipedia page than books written by A. J. P. Taylor or Robert Paxton.

One who was so clear-sighted about Fascism's failures as an ideology and as a system of government that he probably wouldn't be one.

Yup. Also, if the way they run their own political movement is an indication of how politicians prepare to run the country, the Croix de Feu certainly didn't qualify for a Fascist movement.


You seem to connect republicanism with democracy. Was or is there any French monarchist movements (to the extent that they exist today) that held a positive view on things like democracy and the Enlightenment?

You could say what's left of French Monarchism today probably holds positive views on such things, mostly because pretending to overturn democracy and enlightenment would be like King Canute ordering the tide to stop.

At the time, basically the answer is 'no'. The Monarchist Action Française considered things like democracy, enlightenment, or social rights as the very cause of French decline. The "Gueuse" first had to die, and then magic pixie fleur-de-lys dust would make the world a better place.

What was the opinion of Petain amongst the generation born between 1880 and 1900 and when and why did it begin to change? Was it just the collaboration with der Böhmische korpral?

It's no coincidence that Reynaud wanted Pétain in his government, nor that so many people felt they could trust him blindly, for Pétain was basically the next best thing to sliced bread. The victor of Verdun, the man who had won the war, the man who had dared put a stop to stupid communiqué offensives, the general officer who cared for the soldier's plight, the most decorated soldier (something that held weight in a country where one man - and therefore one voter - out of two had been a veteran). To think that he could betray? Work with Germany? Impossible! And you have the age factor - the old patriarch, everybody's grandaddy, the old sage...


But how willing would a French Nationalist be to collaborate with the British, particularly after events like Mers-el-Kébir?

Certainly with great difficulty, particularly considering how futile the operation was. It's a real miracle it didn't backfire badly, sending VIchy straight into Hitler's bed.

When all was said and done, though, they probably considered the core issue was not so much the Royal Navy shelling Mers-el-Kébir, but rather the Wehrmacht occupying France.

And dies in 1946, about sixty years before a sociopathic French paper-pusher says "Hmm..." and starts writing about him :)

Fortunately for the late Colonel's place in posterity, he first caughtd the attention of real historians like Jacques Nobécourt!

What intrigued me most in the Croix de Feu was the proto-Gaullist ideas, and the fact that, if I wanted to think up a "might-have-been" 1939 France, at least de La Rocque was blazing new ground.

And as a final question, will France's colonies appear in any updates anytime soon?

I'll answer this with a resounding "yes", and pretty soon it will be, at least for one of them. It's time for this man to step forth :




(And no, he didn't belong to the Cagoule or any shady group in the 1930s!)

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Edit: Oh, and did they meet?

I have no idea. Logic would dictate that if they were in Poland at the same time (1921) they did, at least socially. It's funny how these little coincidences pop up, sometimes.
 
The riots originated in massive demonstrations organized by the rightist leagues (and the Communists) to protest the involvement of politicians and officials in the "Stavisky affair" financial scandal. It was not a coup attempt, but rather a mass demonstration, demanding the immediate ousting of various ministers, that degenerates into full-blown riots. That riots ensured was a probability, but not, or at least not for every party involved, a certainty. The level of organization shown by the Croix de Feu is proof that de La Rocque expected violent clashes with the police, but that he made sure certain limits were not crossed also convinces me the Croix de Feu were not there to stage a coup, Fascist or not.

You do seem to have an axe to grind as to the unwillingness of certain people to mention that the French Communists were involved. Is this the source of some great and infected historiographic debate in modern France?

On the other hand one might feel it easier to question a Wikipedia page than books written by A. J. P. Taylor or Robert Paxton.
Not if one has studied history as an academic subject, or as Chesterton put it: "Without education, we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously."

At the time, basically the answer is 'no'. The Monarchist Action Française considered things like democracy, enlightenment, or social rights as the very cause of French decline. The "Gueuse" first had to die, and then magic pixie fleur-de-lys dust would make the world a better place.

How then did they explain that the strengthening of democracy, social right and a willingness to adhere to Almighty Reason in the UK and the US had coincided with those two nations becoming the dominant global power and its most likely heir?

It's no coincidence that Reynaud wanted Pétain in his government, nor that so many people felt they could trust him blindly, for Pétain was basically the next best thing to sliced bread. The victor of Verdun, the man who had won the war, the man who had dared put a stop to stupid communiqué offensives, the general officer who cared for the soldier's plight, the most decorated soldier (something that held weight in a country where one man - and therefore one voter - out of two had been a veteran). To think that he could betray? Work with Germany? Impossible! And you have the age factor - the old patriarch, everybody's grandaddy, the old sage...
Yes, but was it just collaborating with Germany that turned people against him? That's generally how it's presented when Vichy is (very briefly) mentioned in most popular history books or documentaries on the war, but surely the process must have been a lot more complex than that?

And storywise, does the left have any candidate to put forth whose credentials as a veteran rival those of De La Rocque?

I'll answer this with a resounding "yes", and pretty soon it will be, at least for one of them. It's time for this man to step forth :

Judging from the picture, I'm guessing Indochina will be involved ;)
I don't if you've dealt with it before, but otherwise it'll be interesting to see what De La Rocque's rather radical views on race might result in.
 
This is what I like about Crossroads. A unique French (you might say continental look) upon the world. And not simplifying issues (unlike certain writers who want their heads of state to meet over barbecue and all be either friends or enemies).
And of course Eams - AF discussions.

Also, when I remember how history went according to the la Republique...
 
You do seem to have an axe to grind as to the unwillingness of certain people to mention that the French Communists were involved. Is this the source of some great and infected historiographic debate in modern France?

An axe to grind, no, but it's true the issue of the 1934 riots is in most books over-simplified as "Fascists and right-wingers try to topple the Republic". That's how I learned it in high school back in the 1980s, and that's even how many History books depict the event.


Not if one has studied history as an academic subject, or as Chesterton put it: "Without education, we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously."

I approve entirely.

How then did they explain that the strengthening of democracy, social right and a willingness to adhere to Almighty Reason in the UK and the US had coincided with those two nations becoming the dominant global power and its most likely heir?

They didn't. Explaining how things worked elsewhere, or how they would work in France never was their strong point. Better to say : "At 8:00, we'll occupy Ministries; at 8:30, we'll execute Blum" (a real Maurras quote, IIRC). After that, I suppose a squadron of royalist pixies would sprinkle magic dust all over the country and ensure we'd all live happily thereafter.


Yes, but was it just collaborating with Germany that turned people against him? That's generally how it's presented when Vichy is (very briefly) mentioned in most popular history books or documentaries on the war, but surely the process must have been a lot more complex than that?

Collaboration with Germany certainly was the key factor in detaching those who had rallied around him and thought he'd be a shield guarding France from German demands - and you had those who were ideologically against Vichy's moral order from the get-go, of course.

In 1940 Pétain says, "I'm sacrificing myself for France, I'll protect you from the enemy's wrath, we'll have to atone for our sins but I will be here with you". Those who engage in resistance acts (which began almost immediately after the Armistice) think Pétain secretly agrees with them. As it becomes clear that he cannot protect French citizens, cannot get the 2 million French POWs back, refuses to help Resistance movements and even helps the Germans dismantle them, you can imagine the disappointment among those who had believed in him and his so-called "double-crossing" the Germans. So they begin to think that it's because Pétain's entourage doesn't tell him the truth. Then that it's because his entourage is dishonest. And then people realize it doesn't matter if Pétain himself is honest or not - at best he has become an obstacle, and at worst an enemy.

I think Pétain came into power in a halo of past glory that for a while prevented people from seeing who he had become, and who were the men that surrounded him. After years of occupation, the halo wore thinner and dimmer. Without the shock of the defeat, no Pétain - and by ricochet, no de Gaulle either.

And storywise, does the left have any candidate to put forth whose credentials as a veteran rival those of De La Rocque?

None with a Colonel's five stripes, as far as I know. Blum never served, Daladier was a decorated Lieutenant, and most of the other prominent Radical-Socialist politicians who served did it (though bravely) as simple soldiers.

Judging from the picture, I'm guessing Indochina will be involved ;)

Yep. Mr Pignon's time has come.

I don't if you've dealt with it before, but otherwise it'll be interesting to see what De La Rocque's rather radical views on race might result in.

I'll bear that in mind!
 
This is what I like about Crossroads. A unique French (you might say continental look) upon the world. And not simplifying issues (unlike certain writers who want their heads of state to meet over barbecue and all be either friends or enemies).
And of course Eams - AF discussions.

Also, when I remember how history went according to the la Republique...

Thanks! I hope the story won't ever disappoint you. :)
 
They didn't. Explaining how things worked elsewhere, or how they would work in France never was their strong point. Better to say : "At 8:00, we'll occupy Ministries; at 8:30, we'll execute Blum" (a real Maurras quote, IIRC). After that, I suppose a squadron of royalist pixies would sprinkle magic dust all over the country and ensure we'd all live happily thereafter.
Baring having an army of royalist pixies at their disposal, what was their strong point, or didn't they have one? Wiki refers to certain historians who claim that people like De La Rocque saved France from fascism by presenting a democratic right-wing alternative to the Popular Front, but how strong were the fascists and the reactionaries who wanted everything to be like it had been in 1788.

I think Pétain came into power in a halo of past glory that for a while prevented people from seeing who he had become, and who were the men that surrounded him. After years of occupation, the halo wore thinner and dimmer. Without the shock of the defeat, no Pétain - and by ricochet, no de Gaulle either.
How easily would they have spotted what he'd become if they'd bothered to look? His earlier desire to become Minister of Education so that he could rectify the moral degeneration does sound pretty ominous, but how vocal was he about his views?

Yep. Mr Pignon's time has come.

What about Papa Ho's time? Or Diem's? Will the Vietnamese king make an appearance? And what was the dominant French view on the colonies and the people in them? I remember having been told that the French goal was to slowly turn those people into proper Frenchmen...
 
Thanks! I hope the story won't ever disappoint you. :)

Well yes, that is until you try to tackle the beast of Balkan history and situation and issues, and I start pouting how you simply don't understand my tribe's version of the events.
 
Well yes, that is until you try to tackle the beast of Balkan history and situation and issues, and I start pouting how you simply don't understand my tribe's version of the events.

You're not suggesting that discussing the history of the Balkans would result in bizarre conflicts, are you?
 
Have you given any thought to a dominion-style system for the more remote French Colonies, especially Vietnam and perhaps some bits of Africa?
 
You're not suggesting that discussing the history of the Balkans would result in bizarre conflicts, are you?

[sarcasm] Noooooooo. What could make you think that people of a peninsula that spent last 1000+ years fighting and quarreling amongst them selfs, about such small issues such as religion, can not agree on history? [/sarcasm]
:D
 
[sarcasm] Noooooooo. What could make you think that people of a peninsula that spent last 1000+ years fighting and quarreling amongst them selfs, about such small issues such as religion, can not agree on history? [/sarcasm]
:D

[sarcasm]
Well, happily enough you've had ample help from other people (Austrians, Russians, Ottomans etcetera etcetera ad infinitum) who have selflessly stepped in to try and solve your little pettifogs for you.
[/sarcasm]
 
[sarcasm]
Well, happily enough you've had ample help from other people (Austrians, Russians, Ottomans etcetera etcetera ad infinitum) who have selflessly stepped in to try and solve your little pettifogs for you.
[/sarcasm]

Don't touch the Russians :D They are the only ones that actually tried to help us. Russia is like a mother into us (well, at leat to the Orthodox part). Sure, an heavily alcoholic one, that we are as likely to find buying herself liquor, or candy for us. :D
 
Well yes, that is until you try to tackle the beast of Balkan history and situation and issues, and I start pouting how you simply don't understand my tribe's version of the events.

I'll do my best to dance around the issue! ;)

Nah, actually I'll probably venture straight into the minefield as I'd like to include Father Draganovic in the story.
 
Have you given any thought to a dominion-style system for the more remote French Colonies, especially Vietnam and perhaps some bits of Africa?

The idea of French Dominions is definitely around, though it cannot be used for every colony given theur different status. Morocco was a protectorate, Syria a Mandate given by the League of Nations, Algeria was made a part of Metropolitan France by law... And to complicate a little further, some colonies were run by the Colonies Ministry, while others were managed by the Navy.
 
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French colonies interest me also. What was plan for them before WW2 and De Gaulle making them overseas departmans? And what are De la Rocque plans?

Basically you had plans by the Left to grant autonomy - not independence - to some of the colonies, and the Mandates were not supposed to last forever, but with mounting fears of war these plans were shelved away. The Empire was too necessary should war break out.
 
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Excellent post, AF. The chaos and frustration in Prague was palpable. I also enjoyed the inclusion of your pair of ne'er do wells and join my forum brethren in wishing them a suitable demise.

While a Indochinese interlude is not unwelcome, I find myself chafing with eagerness to learn the reactions to this post in Paris. A declaration of war and immediate invasion would not be unwarranted.

Vann
 
Excellent post, AF. The chaos and frustration in Prague was palpable. I also enjoyed the inclusion of your pair of ne'er do wells and join my forum brethren in wishing them a suitable demise.

While a Indochinese interlude is not unwelcome, I find myself chafing with eagerness to learn the reactions to this post in Paris. A declaration of war and immediate invasion would not be unwarranted.

Vann

Stay tuned then, for in our next installment we'll see the news of this treacherous Spring of Prague reach Paris and London, and maybe a few other places.
 
Baring having an army of royalist pixies at their disposal, what was their strong point, or didn't they have one? Wiki refers to certain historians who claim that people like De La Rocque saved France from fascism by presenting a democratic right-wing alternative to the Popular Front, but how strong were the fascists and the reactionaries who wanted everything to be like it had been in 1788.

You could say their strongest point was the inherent weakness of the Third Republic, which exasperated citizens and all too often deprived the country of any real leadership at times of crisis.

In terms of brute force, they had precious little. The Action Française had its Camelots du Roy (basically truncheon-carrying SA thugs without the uniform and with delusions of culture), and the other leagues had armed groups, mostly security detachments to protect rallies (democratic parties had those as well in those troubled times).

So basically the Leagues didn't have the muscle to stage a coup - they barely had enough to cause major civil unrest. That's the major reason why they courted army officers (like Weygand, de Lattre, Duseigneur, Giraud...) even tried to "intoxicate" the Army (in 1937-1938 IIRC) into siding with them under the pretense of resisting a Communist coup. In any situation where the Army wouldn't have followed them, they'd have been roundly trounced.


How easily would they have spotted what he'd become if they'd bothered to look? His earlier desire to become Minister of Education so that he could rectify the moral degeneration does sound pretty ominous, but how vocal was he about his views?

He was quite vocal about some of his views, but unlike Hitler he didn't publicize everything beforehand. Also, he was not Vichy's main source of inspiration - there were many groups plotting around, those who wanted revenge against the Popular Front, those who wanted a real Fascist regime, those who wanted some form of National-Socialism.

What about Papa Ho's time? Or Diem's? Will the Vietnamese king make an appearance? And what was the dominant French view on the colonies and the people in them? I remember having been told that the French goal was to slowly turn those people into proper Frenchmen...

France was ambivalent about its colonies. You had both the idea that France was helping the less fortunate to reach the point where they could govern themselves, and the idea that French industry needed the colonies' resources and markets. For a Republic that had embraced universal values of equality and freedom, holding the world's second-largest colonial empire was bound to be an issue. Oddly enough, even the Communists considered it was up to the Metropolitan Communist Party to awaken the colonized people's political conscience, native Communists being relegated to more menial tasks.

I think the importance of France's colonial troops - which were all the craze in the 1880s, and showed bravery in the Great War - had an impact on how the French society looked at the colonies. It definitely was not enough to overcome racial and social prejudice, but it did leave the confuse but persisting impression that the Senegalese Riflemen or the Arab Goumiers were men. It's interesting to see that when American Black troops were deployed in France in both World Wars, the population treated them more or less on equal footing, and much better than their own white officers did. There even were official protests from the US government that the French population fraternized too much with the Black soldiers. That's not to say that racism wasn't prevalent in French society, but only to stress that it was mitigated by the experience France had already had with its own colonial troops.