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Thread: Welsh Expansion discussion thread

  1. #21
    Buckler of Wales Drachenfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Llywelyn
    Also, is it Dafydd or Dewi?

    Apparently St. David is Dewi Sant, but the modern name is Dafydd, maybe?

    How's that work? what was Lly's uncle named?

    j.

    Dewi is a demunitive of Dafydd. Both are used in Welsh going back well before the middle ages. More like, Dafydd Sant became Dewi Sant as a more affectionate way of referring to the Patron Saint of Wales. This is speculation, but both names were common. Just like the demunitive of Llywelyn is Llelo.


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  2. #22
    Field Marshal Llywelyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drachenfire
    Dewi is a demunitive of Dafydd. Both are used in Welsh going back well before the middle ages. More like, Dafydd Sant became Dewi Sant as a more affectionate way of referring to the Patron Saint of Wales. This is speculation, but both names were common. Just like the demunitive of Llywelyn is Llelo.
    :learned something new:

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  3. #23
    Buckler of Wales Drachenfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Llywelyn
    the I-V: Un Dau Tri Pedwar Pump (pum before consonants)
    the VI-X: Chwech (/chwe) Saith Wyth Naw Deg

    Welsh
    English y Saesneg
    Scottish yr Albonwr
    Italian yr Eidalwr

    Crusader Croesgadwr
    Pious Crefyddal
    Godly Duwiol
    Godfearing Duwiolfrydig
    Wifefearing Gwraigfrydig
    Rhewydd Lustful
    Chwantus Lustful
    Blysig Greedy
    yr Anwar the Barbarian
    Mawr / Fawr the Great
    Hir the Tall
    Dda the Good
    Drwg the Bad (cf. A Clockwork Orange)
    Adwythig the Cruel
    Sant St.
    Santes Ste.
    yr Edling the Heir
    Naf Lord
    Diwethaf the Last
    Lawgoch Red-hand (what does this mean?)
    Goch the Red
    Glyw Governor
    Unben Despot
    Arglwydd Baron
    Rhi King
    Brenint King
    Lawhir Long-hand (what does this mean?)
    Wledig Imperious
    Yrth Impetuous
    Cadomedd Battle-shirker
    Fendiagaid the Blessed
    Iwrch Roebuck (why use this?)
    Molwynog the Bald and Gray
    Llwyd the Gray
    Doel the Bald
    Gryg the Hoarse
    Frych the Freckled



    I love this list alot! Is it possible, through events, to add these to a character's name? Like.. Croesagdwr. When a Welsh cultured courtier gets the crusader trait, can the text be specific and list it as in Welsh? Does this make sense?

    More to the point I suppose is can the events be culture-specific. For instance, when you gain a trait or lose one, can we have it ..."your child is a survivor" but list that as "your child is a (welsh word for survivor), a survivor."

    Also, many of these names could also be used for generic dynasty names in Wales, as many last names are decriptive too. For the generic dynasty names, I am looking for descriptive or regional names.

    Lastly, I like the idea of listing it as "Hywl Dda Dinefwr" or "Owain Gwynedd ap Gruffydd Aberffraw." Though with some names, the actual name might bleed over the box with how large it would be. Where did you see Rhi and Brenint used in Welsh to mean king? In all the lititure Ive seen, Brenin/Brenhines means king and queen. Rhi is Irish, no?

    This weekend I have online events in Galaxies to attend, though I will work on some of this on Saturday and Sunday.
    Last edited by Drachenfire; 17-11-2006 at 07:20.


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  4. #24
    Field Marshal Llywelyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drachenfire
    I love this list alot!
    Thanks!

    Is it possible, through events, to add these to a character's name? Like.. Croesagdwr. When a Welsh cultured courtier gets the crusader trait, can the text be specific and list it as in Welsh? Does this make sense?
    Yes, it makes sense, but no, currently you can't have patronyms or modified names. It seems like most of them would be easy enough to code: take dad's name, chop off his patronym, and add "ap " or "ab " for Welsh culture; "O'" for Irish; "Mc" or "Mac" for Scottish; "Fitz" for Norman; "ibn " for Arab; and so on. But no, this is not something CK can do now.

    You'd have to just leave the list online and let Welsh players add their own epithets. The only thing you can do is add a few of the common ones as actual names: eg, have three or six "Dafydd"s in your name list and one "Dafydd Drwg" and one "Dafydd Hir" and just spread those around.

    Alternatively, you could use some of them as surnames, but IMO it's better for Welshies to use local place names - eg, replace the aps and whatnot with places like Aberffraw, Dinefwr, x Gwynedd (I forgot what "of" or "from" was... - maybe just Gwynedd ), etc. for created dynasties.

    More to the point I suppose is can the events be culture-specific. For instance, when you gain a trait or lose one, can we have it ..."your child is a survivor" but list that as "your child is a (welsh word for survivor), a survivor."
    Not to my knowledge. Veld??? Is there a culture = X trigger?

    I do know you can just edit the event names and event text and leave it as a mod for players to use when they're playing Wales. You can also use one of the language tiers in the events and have the whole dang thing translated into Welsh instead of, eg, German.

    But it would be a lot of work.

    Also, many of these names could also be used for generic dynasty names in Wales, as many last names are decriptive too. For the generic dynasty names, I am looking for descriptive or regional names.
    Yeah, these would be better than the current inaccurate patronym surnames - eg, Llywelynlynlyn "ap Llwyd" whose dad is actually named Dewi. Is there a different word you use for dynasties? eg, Cunedda was the ancestor of the Aberffraws - did they call themselves ap Cunedda or was there a different word there? Ditto, should there be anything before Aberffraw or was it just Dewi Aberffraw by itself?

    Lastly, I like the idea of listing it as "Hywl Dda Dinefwr" or "Owain Gwynedd ap Gruffydd Aberffraw." Though with some names, the actual name might bleed over the box with how large it would be.
    Nah, that would be really rare - although you could just leave it at Owain Gwynedd Aberffraw

    Where did you see Rhi and Brenint used in Welsh to mean king? In all the lititure Ive seen, Brenin/Breninas means king and queen. Rhi is Irish, no?
    No idea. I think so.

    I just pasted words from an online Welsh-English dictionary.

    This weekend I have online events in Galaxies to attend, though I will work on some of this on Saturday and Sunday.
    Have fun!
    Last edited by Llywelyn; 19-11-2006 at 08:16.
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  5. #25
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    Definitive list of Welsh surnames

    From www.ancienttexts.org:

    From the Red Book of Hergest:

    The Cantrevs and Commotes of Wales:

    Here begins the Cantrevs of Gwynedd and Its Commots
    Cantref Teigyl:
    # Commot Insel
    # Commot Prestan
    # Commot Rhuddlan.

    Cantref Dyffryn Clwyt:
    # Commot Colyan
    # Commot Llannerch
    # Commot Ystrad

    Cantref Rywynyawc
    # Commot Rhuthyn
    # Commot Uch Alech
    # Commot Is Alech

    Cantref Rhos
    # Commot Uch Dulas
    # Commot Is Dulas
    # Commot Ykreudyn

    Cantrefoed Mon (Anglesey)
    # Commot Llan Uaes
    # Commot Cemeis

    # Commot Talebolyon
    # Commot Aberffraw

    # Commot Penn Rhos
    # Commot Rosvyrr

    Cantref Arllechwed
    # Commot Treffryw
    # Commot Aber

    Cantref Arfon
    # Commot Uch Conwy
    # Commot Is Conwy

    Cantref Dinodyn
    # Commot Rifnot
    # Commot Ardudwy

    Cantref Llyyn
    # Commot inmael Commot is
    # Clogyon Commot Cwmdinam.

    Cantref Meiryonyd
    # Commot Eftumaneyr
    # Commot Talybont

    Cantrefoed Eryri
    # Commot Cyueilawc
    # Commot Madeu

    # Commot Uch Meloch
    # Commot Is Meloch

    # Commot Llan Gonwy
    # Commot Dinmael
    # CommotGlyndyudwy

    Such are the Cantrefs of Gwynned--15--and the Commots are 36.

    Powys
    Cantrefoed Powys Madawc:
    # Commot Iaal
    # Commot Ystrad Alun
    # Commot Yr Hop

    # Commot Berford
    # Commot Wnknan

    # Commot Trefwenn
    # Commot Croesosswallt
    # Commot y Creudyn

    # Commot Nant Odyn
    # Commot Ceuenbleid
    # Commot Uch Raeadyr

    Cantrefoed Powys Gwennwynwyn:
    # Commot Is Raeadyr
    # Commot Deu Dyswr
    # Commot Llannerchwdwl

    # Commot Ystrad Marchell
    # Commot Mecheyn
    # Commot Caer Einon

    # Commot Uch Affes
    # Commot Is Affes

    # Commot Uch Coet
    # Commot Is Coet

    Such are the Cantrevs of Powys--8--and the Commots are 21.

    Maelenyd:
    Cantrefoed Maelenyd:
    # Commot Ceri
    # Commot Gwerthrynnyon

    # Commot Swyd Uudugre
    # Commot Swyd Yethon
    # Commot Llwythyfnwc

    Buellt
    Cantref Buellt:
    # Commot Penn Buellt
    # Commot Swydman
    # Commot Treflys
    # Commot Is Iruon.

    Eluael
    Cantref Eluael:
    # Commot Uch Mynyd
    # Commot Is Mynyd

    Brecheinawc
    Cantref Selyf:
    # Commot Brwynllys
    # Commot Talgarth

    Cantref Tewdos:
    # Commot Dyffryn Hodni
    # Commot Llywel
    # Commot Tir Rawlf

    Cantref Ida:
    # Commot Ystrad Yw
    # Commot Cruc Howel
    # Commot Efyas

    Ystrat Tywi
    Cantref Bychan:
    # Commot Hirvryn
    # Commot Perued
    # Commot Iskennen

    Cantref Eginawc
    # Commot Kedweli
    # Commot Carnywyllawn
    # Commot Gwhyr

    Cantref Mawr
    # Commot Mallaen
    # Commot Caeaw
    # Commot Maenawr Deilaw
    # Commot Cetheinawc
    # Commot Mab Eluyw
    # Commot Mab Utryt
    # Commot Widigada

    Ceredigyawn
    Cantref Gwarthaf
    # Commot Geneurglyn
    # Commot Perued
    # Commot Creudyn

    Cantref Mabwynyon
    # Commot Meuenyd
    # Commot Anhunyawc
    # Commot Pennard

    Cantref Caer Wedros
    # Commot Wenyionid
    # Commot Is Coed

    Emlyn
    Cantref Emlyn
    # Commot Uch Cuch
    # Commot Is Cuch

    Cemeis
    Cantref Cemeis
    # Commot Uch Neuer
    # Commot Is Neuer

    Wartha
    Cantref Wartha
    # Commot Eluyd
    # Commot Derllys
    # Commot Pennryn
    # Commot Estyrlwyf
    # Commot Talacharn
    # Commot Amgoet
    # Commot Peluneawc
    # Commot y Uelfre

    Deugledyf
    Cantref Deugledyf
    # Commot Llan y Hadein
    # Commot Castel Hu

    Pennbrwc
    Cantref Pennbrwc
    # Commot Penncaer
    # Commot Menew

    Pebidawc
    Cantref Pebideawc
    # Commot Hawlfford
    # Commot Castell Gwalchmei

    Morgannwg
    Cantref Gorvynyd
    # Commot Rwng Net A Thawy
    # Commot Tir Yr Hwndryt
    # Commot Rwng Neth ac Avyn
    # Commot Tir Yr Iarll
    # Commot Y Coety
    # Commot Maenawr Glyn Ogwr

    Cantref Penn Ychen
    # Commot Meisgyn
    # Commot Glyn Rodne
    # Commot Maenawr Tal y Vann
    # Commot Maenawr Ruthyn

    Cantref Breinyawl
    # Commot Is Caech
    # Commot Uch Caech
    # Commot Kibwr

    Cantref Gwynllwc
    # Commot Yr Heid
    # Commot Ydref Berued
    # Commot Edelygyon
    # Commot Eithyaf
    # Commot Y Mynyd

    Cantref Gwent
    # Commot Is Coed
    # Commot Llemynyd
    # Commot Tref y Gruc
    # Commot Uch Coed
    It's a little late, but these would be the major ones, although there are obviously others that could be included: Dinefwr had already gone; glyn Dwr & glyn Cothi aren't here but were famous; others?

    EDIT: From Rhodri ap Dafydd:

    I found material on the traditional "tribes" of Wales (also has heraldry). It's given that

    The Five Royal Tribes of Wales descended from
    • Gruffydd ap Cynan tywysog Gwynedd (1081-), a branch of the Aberffraw dynasty
    • Rhys i ap Tewdwr tywysog Deheubarth (1078-), a branch of the Dinefwr dynasty
    • Bleddyn ap Cynfyn tywysog Gwynedd a Powys (1063-), the Mathrafal dynasty
    • Iestyn ap Gwrgant tywysog Morgannwg (1081-), the Morgannwg dynasty
    • Elystan Glodrydd, Saxon Earl of Hereford and Gloucester, styled King of Fferlix, who reigned at Buellt and whose descendants were called Earls Cadogan from his son (call them Cadwgannwg? Elystannwg?)
    and

    The Fifteen Tribes of Wales descended from
    • Hwfa ap Cynddelw of Presaddfed, Lord Llysllivon, steward to Owain i Gwynedd
    • Llywarch ap Bran, Lord Cwmmwd Menai, steward to Owain i Gwynedd
    • Gweirydd ap Rhys Goch
    • Cilmin Troed du, nephew of Mervyn Vrych
    • Collwyn ap Tango, Lord Eifionydd, Ardudwy, and Llyn
    • Nefydd Hardd of Nant Conway
    • Maelog Crwm, Lord of Llech Wedd Isaf and Creuddyn
    • Marchudd ap Cynan, Lord of Abergeleu
    • Hedd Molwynog, Lord of Llanfair Talhaiarn, Dyffryn Elwy and Nant Aled
    • Braint Hir, Lord Is. Dullas
    • Marchweithian, Lord Isaled
    • Edwin ap Gronwy, Lord Tegaingl
    • Ednywain Bendew
    • Efnydd Gwerngwy, Lord Dyffryn Clwyd
    • Ednowain ap Branwen, Lord Tal y bont

    plus the tribe of March, descended from
    • Tudor Trevor, Earl of Hereford and Gloucester
    Now, certainly, the royal dynasties were called after their strongholds - the ones you already have - would people be called anything related to these guys? or would they just know that their ancestry relates back to them and only go by the surnames of their native villages and commotes?

    Just trying to think what the default surnames should be for generated courtiers in Wales.
    Last edited by Llywelyn; 25-11-2006 at 09:11.
    All Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia!
    The experience of our ancestors, ever incentives and aids to virtue, would never
    have inspired or saved a single soul, had not the loyalty, zeal, and diligence of writers
    triumphing over sloth transmitted them to posterity
    . — John of Salisbury
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  6. #26
    Field Marshal Llywelyn's Avatar
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    1. Greatly expanded the epithet list. Help with the hard ones would be appreciated.

    2. You must include Elvis in the list of Welsh names (from Elvis Sant, who baptized Dewi Sant near the Pressley hills )

    3. More Welsh flavor events: the Black Cats of Britain (cryptozoology: for hundreds of years people have claimed to see panthers all over Wales and Britain but it's never been verified - eg Cath Palug - as a "boar" event); also
    Twrch Trwyth (great boar of the welsh); search for the Cauldron of Plenty; kids should get really pissy about not having salic gavelkind law; horse events; Irish relations; English march lords on pirate raid; genealogy events giving the Welsh claims on Galloway, Chester, York, etc.

    4. Most importantly, I was reading the Welsh regnal genealogies and ap is wrong for the period - all "sons of" should be rendered map and all "daughters of" should be rendered merch.

    5. The welsh for "House of Rhodri" (e.g.) is plant Rhodri. Did they use that in their names? Should it be plant Aberffraw?

    6. We were talking about the Welsh word for king earlier - it's tywysog. The English just translated it over as Prince to keep Welsh lords on a lower standing (cf. the Chinese huangdi and the wangs or the Byzantine basileus and the reges), so later the Welsh created brenin as a neologism.

    Every tywysog was theoretically autonomous but included anyone in charge of a commote - they were that fractured politically. More powerful tywysogs commanded personal or clan loyalty from the other ones, so that they were titled tywysog Gwynedd (eg) instead of being merely tywysog Aberffraw or Ynys Mons. A Tywysog holl Gymru would be king of all Wales.

    7. From a couple of the genealogy pages, I put together this:

    Llywelyn ii Fawr (the Great) twywsog holl Gymru
    mab Iorwerth Drwyndwn (Flatnosed)
    mab Owain i Gwynedd tywysog Gwynedd
    map Gruffydd ii tywysog Gwynedd
    map Cynan ii tywysog Gwynedd
    map Hywel iii tywysog Gwynedd
    mab Ieuaf tywysog Gwynedd
    mab Idwal ii Foel (the Bald) tywysog Gwynedd
    mab Anarawd tywysog Gwynedd [founder of the house of Aberffraw]
    map Rhodri ii Mawr tywysog holl Gymru [Rodri]
    map Merfyn Frych (the Freckled) tywysog Gwynedd [founder of the plant Merfyn]
    map Eithyl merch Cynan i Dindaethwy [of plant Cunedda Wledig] ac Gwriad tywysog Ynys Manaw ac Gwynedd
    mab Elidyr tywysog Ynys Manaw ac Deheurheged
    map Sandde Bryd Angel (Angel-faced) tywysog Ynys Manaw [who faught at Baddon Hill and whose wife was Celenion merch Tutwal Tutclith of the line of Macsen Wledig]
    mab Algwyn map Tegyth [whose mother was Anna Morgause sister of Arthwr tywysog Prydain]
    map Gwyar
    map Dwywg
    map Llywarch Hen (the Old)
    mab Elidyr Llydanwyn (the Stout & handsome) tywysog Deheurheged
    map Meirchion Gul (the Lean) tywysog Rheged
    map Gwrst Ledlwm (the Half-naked) tywysog Rheged
    map Keneu Sant tywysog Prydain Gogledd
    map Coel iii Godebog (the Magnificient) tywysog Gododdin
    map Tegfan Gloff (the Lame)
    map Deheweint [whose mother was daughter of Coel i Hen]
    map Telpwyll
    mab Erbin [Vrbanus]
    map Gradd [Gratianus]
    map Rhyfedel
    map Rhydeyrn
    mab Euddigan
    mab Eudeyrn
    mab Eifydd
    mab Eudaf [Octavianus]
    mab Euddolen
    mab Afallach [Avalon, land of the dead]
    map Lludd Llaw Ereint (the Silver-handed, god of healing) tywysog Prydain
    map Beli Mawr (the Great) tywysog Prydain [Celtic god] [whose wife was Anna the Prophetess, daughter of Joseph Sant ben Matthat of Arimathea who was of David by his son Nathan and Anu, a Celtic goddess, or else the cousin of the Virgin Mary]
    map Mynogan tywysog Prydain
    mab Capoyr tywysog Prydain
    map Gerwyd
    map Crydad
    map Cynfarch tywysog Cernyw
    map Prydain tywysog Cernyw [for whom is named Britain]
    mab Aedd Mawr tywysog Cernyw
    mab Anwn tywysog Cernyw
    map Seisyll tywysog Prydain
    map Gwrwst tywysog Prydain
    map Riwallon tywysog Prydain
    map Cunedda tywysog Prydain [whose mother was Regan, d of Llyr]
    map Henwyn tywysog Cymru ac Cernyw
    mab Asser tywysog Cymru ac Cernyw
    map Cyngen tywysog Cymru ac Cernyw
    map Dyfynwal Hen tywysog Cymru ac Cernyw
    map Gorwynyawn tywysog Cymru ac Cernyw
    map Cymryw tywysog Cymru ac Cernyw [eponym of Cambria][whose mother was Ignoge d king of Greece]
    map Bryttys tywyssauc o Ruvein
    map Sylhys Hen [Silvius]
    map Esgannys tywysog Gwynhir [Alba Longa]
    mab Eneas ysgwyt wyn (of the white shield)
    map Gwener [Venus] et Ensissesque [Anchises]
    map Capys who warned about the Horse
    mab Assarakys [Assaracus] tywysog Dardanianorum
    map Troyaf [Tros] tywysog Dardanianorum et Troyaf [Troy]
    mab Erichthonius tywysog Dardanianorum
    map Darda qui vocatur Dardar [Dardanus] tywysog Dardanianorum
    map qua vocatur filia Atlas Electrae [the Pleiade] et Mahol Zerahiaid qui frater Achan Zerahiaid the Cursed
    map Carmi
    map Zabdi
    map Zerach [Zerah]

    [NB. Zerah's descendants are a little screwy in the Bible - In Joshua, Achan is given as son of Carmi son of Zabdi son of Zerah; in Chronicles, it sez Zerah's children were "Zimri, and Ethan, and Heman, and Calcol, and Dara; five of them in all;" in Kings, it says Solomon is wiser "than Ethan the Ezrahite [which the Rabbis glossed as a variant for Zerahite], and Heman, and Calcol, and Darda, the sons of Mahol" - a little of the funkiness is relieved by the Hebrew "son" referring to any (especially the most exceptional) of one's descendants]

    map Juda [Judah] tywysog Israel
    map Iacob [qui tamen] Israel [vocatur]
    mab Isaac
    mab Abram tywysog Damascus [who became] Abraham Sant Wledig
    map Tarah Ur y Caldeaid [Terah of Ur of the Chaldees]
    map Nachor [Nahor]
    map Serug
    map Reu
    map Peleg [Pelag]
    map [a daughter of] Nimrodd [Nimrod] ac Heber [Eber] [who was in] Babel [eponym of Hebrews]
    map Selah [Shelah]
    map Arphaxad [Arpachshad]
    map Sem [Shem]
    map Noah
    map Lamec [Lamech]
    map Methulselah
    mab Henoc [Enoch]
    map Jered [Jared]
    map Mahalaleλl
    map Cenan [Cainan]
    mab Enos ac Noam qua sorer erat
    map Seth ac Azura qua sorer erat
    mab Adda ac Efa [Adam and Eve]

    [I had seen some Welsh Biblical names (eg, Iago is supposedly Jacob) but took these from the first Welsh Bible]
    [Welsh Trojan names from the Chronicle of the Early Britons by Caradoc of Llancarfan, the Welsh sister work to Geoffrey of Monmouth's history]

    8. Certainly, we should push the genealogy back to Rhodri Mawr (of the no-last-name dynasty) to show the connection of the Aberffraw and Dinefwr dynasties. Where do the others come in, do you know?

    9. Since it's a mod anyway, though, what do you think about coming up with cards all the way back to Adam? I'd help out; I think it'd be funny; and good flavor for the Welsh obsession with genealogy and status
    Last edited by Llywelyn; 27-11-2006 at 14:19.
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    :Phew:

    I think that's it for edits, unless I find any more funny epithets.

    Anyway, assuming you've already cruised wiki for material on the ingame characters (ie, those excommunications), that looks like it for now - what do you think?
    j.
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  8. #28
    Buckler of Wales Drachenfire's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Llywelyn]1. Greatly expanded the epithet list. Help with the hard ones would be appreciated. These monikers are fantastic!

    2. You must include Elvis in the list of Welsh names (from Elvis Sant, who baptized Dewi Sant near the Pressley hills ) Aye, there is strong evidence that Pressley did origionate from the Presli mountaints in Dyfed.

    3. More Welsh flavor events: the Black Cats of Britain (cryptozoology: for hundreds of years people have claimed to see panthers all over Wales and Britain but it's never been verified - eg Cath Palug - as a "boar" event); also
    Twrch Trwyth (great boar of the welsh); search for the Cauldron of Plenty; kids should get really pissy about not having salic gavelkind law; horse events; Irish relations; English march lords on pirate raid; genealogy events giving the Welsh claims on Galloway, Chester, York, etc. Love this!

    4. Most importantly, I was reading the Welsh regnal genealogies and ap is wrong for the period - all "sons of" should be rendered map and all "daughters of" should be rendered merch. I have not yet found any evidence of this. From the sources I speak with, ap is the correct form even as of the late dark ages. These sources I am speaking with say that Map was archaic Welsh, from the early Dark Ages. It has long since contracted to ap by the 9th century. Some poets may have used the more flourished Map, but this was not the standard. I have not seen in your sources yet where Map was used. ap/ferch are the standard as of the 1066 start as far as I can determine

    5. The welsh for "House of Rhodri" (e.g.) is plant Rhodri. Did they use that in their names? Should it be plant Aberffraw? The names Aberffraw, Dinefwr, Mathrafal are local seats of power, where the various branches of Plant Rhodri origionally held their seat at. I followed the format followed by later historians by describing this or that dynasty as of the Aberffraw line or Dinefwr line. The Welsh, until the modern era, did not have surnames. Surnames are a recent event, and even in a game like CK, it is rather an artifical application for these dynasties that they are so hard-coded. It is a game mechanic. If we were to assign all the branches to Rhodri, we would indeed use Plant Rhodri. But instead, I am using the already established application (for Western Europe anyway) of designating the dynasty name after the principal seat of power. Thus, you have the d'Aquitaine for the Aquitaine line, amongst others.

    6. We were talking about the Welsh word for king earlier - it's tywysog. The English just translated it over as Prince to keep Welsh lords on a lower standing (cf. the Chinese huangdi and the wangs or the Byzantine basileus and the reges), so later the Welsh created brenin as a neologism.


    Every tywysog was theoretically autonomous but included anyone in charge of a commote - they were that fractured politically. More powerful tywysogs commanded personal or clan loyalty from the other ones, so that they were titled tywysog Gwynedd (eg) instead of being merely tywysog Aberffraw or Ynys Mons. A Tywysog holl Gymru would be king of all Wales.

    tywysog / tywysoges is most commonly translated to prince/princess. Brenin/brenhines is translated to king/queen. Another poster claims that tywysog origionated more or less as "leader". And this may be true. Eventually it became a heriditary title associated to prince.


    7. From a couple of the genealogy pages, I put together this:

    Llywelyn ii Fawr (the Great) twywsog holl Gymru
    mab Iorwerth Drwyndwn (Flatnosed)
    mab Owain i Gwynedd tywysog Gwynedd
    map Gruffydd ii tywysog Gwynedd
    map Cynan ii tywysog Gwynedd
    map Hywel iii tywysog Gwynedd
    mab Ieuaf tywysog Gwynedd
    mab Idwal ii Foel (the Bald) tywysog Gwynedd
    mab Anarawd tywysog Gwynedd [founder of the house of Aberffraw]
    map Rhodri ii Mawr tywysog holl Gymru [Rodri]
    map Merfyn Frych (the Freckled) tywysog Gwynedd [founder of the plant Merfyn]
    map Eithyl merch Cynan i Dindaethwy [of plant Cunedda Wledig] ac Gwriad tywysog Ynys Manaw ac Gwynedd
    mab Elidyr tywysog Ynys Manaw ac Deheurheged
    map Sandde Bryd Angel (Angel-faced) tywysog Ynys Manaw [who faught at Baddon Hill and whose wife was Celenion merch Tutwal Tutclith of the line of Macsen Wledig]
    mab Algwyn map Tegyth [whose mother was Anna Morgause sister of Arthwr tywysog Prydain]
    map Gwyar
    map Dwywg
    map Llywarch Hen (the Old)
    mab Elidyr Llydanwyn (the Stout & handsome) tywysog Deheurheged
    map Meirchion Gul (the Lean) tywysog Rheged
    map Gwrst Ledlwm (the Half-naked) tywysog Rheged
    map Keneu Sant tywysog Prydain Gogledd
    map Coel iii Godebog (the Magnificient) tywysog Gododdin
    map Tegfan Gloff (the Lame)
    map Deheweint [whose mother was daughter of Coel i Hen]
    map Telpwyll
    mab Erbin [Vrbanus]
    map Gradd [Gratianus]
    map Rhyfedel
    map Rhydeyrn
    mab Euddigan
    mab Eudeyrn
    mab Eifydd
    mab Eudaf [Octavianus]
    mab Euddolen
    mab Afallach [Avalon, land of the dead]
    map Lludd Llaw Ereint (the Silver-handed, god of healing) tywysog Prydain
    map Beli Mawr (the Great) tywysog Prydain [Celtic god] [whose wife was Anna the Prophetess, daughter of Joseph Sant ben Matthat of Arimathea who was of David by his son Nathan and Anu, a Celtic goddess, or else the cousin of the Virgin Mary]
    map Mynogan tywysog Prydain
    mab Capoyr tywysog Prydain
    map Gerwyd
    map Crydad
    map Cynfarch tywysog Cernyw
    map Prydain tywysog Cernyw [for whom is named Britain]
    mab Aedd Mawr tywysog Cernyw
    mab Anwn tywysog Cernyw
    map Seisyll tywysog Prydain
    map Gwrwst tywysog Prydain
    map Riwallon tywysog Prydain
    map Cunedda tywysog Prydain [whose mother was Regan, d of Llyr]
    map Henwyn tywysog Cymru ac Cernyw
    mab Asser tywysog Cymru ac Cernyw
    map Cyngen tywysog Cymru ac Cernyw
    map Dyfynwal Hen tywysog Cymru ac Cernyw
    map Gorwynyawn tywysog Cymru ac Cernyw
    map Cymryw tywysog Cymru ac Cernyw [eponym of Cambria][whose mother was Ignoge d king of Greece]
    map Bryttys tywyssauc o Ruvein
    map Sylhys Hen [Silvius]
    map Esgannys tywysog Gwynhir [Alba Longa]
    mab Eneas ysgwyt wyn (of the white shield)
    map Gwener [Venus] et Ensissesque [Anchises]
    map Capys who warned about the Horse
    mab Assarakys [Assaracus] tywysog Dardanianorum
    map Troyaf [Tros] tywysog Dardanianorum et Troyaf [Troy]
    mab Erichthonius tywysog Dardanianorum
    map Darda qui vocatur Dardar [Dardanus] tywysog Dardanianorum
    map qua vocatur filia Atlas Electrae [the Pleiade] et Mahol Zerahiaid qui frater Achan Zerahiaid the Cursed
    map Carmi
    map Zabdi
    map Zerach [Zerah]

    [NB. Zerah's descendants are a little screwy in the Bible - In Joshua, Achan is given as son of Carmi son of Zabdi son of Zerah; in Chronicles, it sez Zerah's children were "Zimri, and Ethan, and Heman, and Calcol, and Dara; five of them in all;" in Kings, it says Solomon is wiser "than Ethan the Ezrahite [which the Rabbis glossed as a variant for Zerahite], and Heman, and Calcol, and Darda, the sons of Mahol" - a little of the funkiness is relieved by the Hebrew "son" referring to any (especially the most exceptional) of one's descendants]

    map Juda [Judah] tywysog Israel
    map Iacob [qui tamen] Israel [vocatur]
    mab Isaac
    mab Abram tywysog Damascus [who became] Abraham Sant Wledig
    map Tarah Ur y Caldeaid [Terah of Ur of the Chaldees]
    map Nachor [Nahor]
    map Serug
    map Reu
    map Peleg [Pelag]
    map [a daughter of] Nimrodd [Nimrod] ac Heber [Eber] [who was in] Babel [eponym of Hebrews]
    map Selah [Shelah]
    map Arphaxad [Arpachshad]
    map Sem [Shem]
    map Noah
    map Lamec [Lamech]
    map Methulselah
    mab Henoc [Enoch]
    map Jered [Jared]
    map Mahalaleλl
    map Cenan [Cainan]
    mab Enos ac Noam qua sorer erat
    map Seth ac Azura qua sorer erat
    mab Adda ac Efa [Adam and Eve]

    [I had seen some Welsh Biblical names (eg, Iago is supposedly Jacob) but took these from the first Welsh Bible]
    [Welsh Trojan names from the Chronicle of the Early Britons by Caradoc of Llancarfan, the Welsh sister work to Geoffrey of Monmouth's history]

    8. Certainly, we should push the genealogy back to Rhodri Mawr (of the no-last-name dynasty) to show the connection of the Aberffraw and Dinefwr dynasties. In the 1066 scenario I assigned Rhodri to the Cunedda dynasty, as his line allegedly springs from that source (this is where Plant Cunedda would come into place if we were translating the "Cunedda Dynasty". The connection between Aberffraw and Dinefwr are between Rhodri's eldest son (who established the Aberffraw line) and his second son (who established the Dinefwr line). I already establish this n the 1066 scenario.

    9. Since it's a mod anyway, though, what do you think about coming up with cards all the way back to Adam? I'd help out; I think it'd be funny; and good flavor for the Welsh obsession with genealogy and status Amusing yes. and I dont see why it couldnt be done. You seem most anxious for this, so mayhap we could do it. Hehe. I have no objections from a historical sense.[/QUOTE]


    I still havent found the time to update the mode, mayhap over Christmans. Every time I start the game I still cant continue, as not having modded female succession still upsets me so.


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    True I am to my country


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  9. #29
    Field Marshal Llywelyn's Avatar
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    Granma always said we were descended from the kings of Wales, so I probably took the genealogy a bit too far it'd be kind of fun to just pile everything from, eg, EBK into a big add on to the game file, but finally thought better of it. I'll prune out the important stuff and post it here in the next week or so; maybe leave the rest in the history section for anyone else who's curious. God knows Wiki's Welsh pages are a mess, but since I'm in China and they started blocking the https:// sites, I can't do anything about it myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drachenfire
    These monikers are fantastic!
    Thanks

    Still torn myself between whether it's better, eg, to have

    character = {
    name = "Llywelyn Fawr" #the Great
    . . .

    or

    character = {
    name = "Llywelyn the Great" #Llywelyn Fawr
    . . .

    Some of those monikers are hilarious in their own right (Tegau Goldbreast comes to mind) and you can't enjoy it without the translation. I think the purist in me will give out, and I'll do the genealogy with the English epithets. OTOH, if you do throw in a few Gochs and Ieuafs and Ddus into your name list, should probably leave them in the Welsh.

    Aye, there is strong evidence that Pressley did origionate from the Presli mountaints in Dyfed.
    I don't know the evidence is really all that strong, but it's still funny.

    Love this!
    I like coming up with the ideas but have a pretty strong hunch that scripting CK events will be a pain. I'll leave that part of the mod to your eponomy.

    I have not yet found any evidence of this. From the sources I speak with, ap is the correct form even as of the late dark ages. These sources I am speaking with say that Map was archaic Welsh, from the early Dark Ages.
    Well, you might be right. I don't know what your sources are.

    I prefer map/b from an amusement and aesthetic perspective and merch because I don't have to worry about f/v but it's hard to believe you haven't found any evidence of it if you were looking: it's the only version used in the genealogical material during the CK period. Cf. esp. the Harleian MS 3859 genealogies (c. 1100), the Jesus College MS 20 genealogies (~), the Descent of the Men of the North (12th & 13th c.), and the Mostyn MS 117 genealogies (late 13th c.). These can also be seen at kmatthews.org.uk.

    The triads and the Brut y Tywysiog are partial to uap and uab. The Annales Cambriae and Gildas (see K. Matthew's site) and the Pillar of Eliseg (see Mary Jones's) simply use the Latin filius.

    Ap is used on Wiki, but as mentioned before Wiki's a mess re: Wales. It's used along with uap and uab in the Brut, but that's from a 14th or 15th c. volume. We use ap to talk about them now, but that's because ap is, yknow, what we use now. The game should use map IMHO.

    But instead, I am using the already established application (for Western Europe anyway) of designating the dynasty name after the principal seat of power. Thus, you have the d'Aquitaine for the Aquitaine line, amongst others.
    Makes sense. Reading up, looks like the Aberffraw, Dinefwr, Mathrafal thing was pretty well established; and with Welsh, you don't need to add any particals like "of" to make it work. It just functions like another epithet - eg, Maelgwn Gwynedd.

    One problem, though: Afen was the seat of the descendants of Caradog ab Iestyn ap Gwrgant ab Ithel Ddu after Iestyn was displaced from his seat in Morgannwg. Cadwgan ap Morgan in the 1066 scenario would've considered himself either Cadwgan Morgannwg or Cadwgan plant/map Morgan or (more distantly) Cadwgan plant/map Caradawg Breichfras. By the time the family was dispossessed enough to be called Afen, they wouldn't be playable; alternatively, if the player saves them, they wouldn't be called Afen.

    And we really should just rename Glamorgan, map or no map. @#$^$ing Marcher lords.


    In the 1066 scenario I assigned Rhodri to the Cunedda dynasty, as his line allegedly springs from that source (this is where Plant Cunedda would come into place if we were translating the "Cunedda Dynasty".
    But Rhodri's really from the Manaw dynasty through Merfyn Frych's dad whatshisface - Gwriad. His mother/grandma (depends on your source) was the end of the Cunedda line.

    I already establish this n the 1066 scenario.
    You started to, but the Aberffraw representatives there, Cynan and Gruffydd, aren't included on the Aberffraw genealogy and - in fact - are just given as "of Dublin."

    Amusing yes. and I dont see why it couldnt be done. You seem most anxious for this, so mayhap we could do it. Hehe. I have no objections from a historical sense.
    Heh.

    Every time I start the game I still cant continue, as not having modded female succession still upsets me so.
    I feel your pain. Hope the Welsh World Conquest in my AAR eased it some, even if it was accomplished by guys.

    Plus, this mod and my AAR inspired Veld to start his own Welsh AAR.
    Last edited by Llywelyn; 31-12-2006 at 18:00.
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    have inspired or saved a single soul, had not the loyalty, zeal, and diligence of writers
    triumphing over sloth transmitted them to posterity
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  10. #30
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    Dynasties

    • The Five Royal Tribes of Wales were

      Code:
      #descendants of Anarawd map Rhodri Mawr
      dynasty = {
      	id = { type = 12 id = 70274064 }
      	name = "Aberffraw"
        	province = { }
      }
      #descendants of Cadell map Rhodri Mawr
      dynasty = {
      	id = { type = 12 id = 70274018 }
      	name = "Dinefwr"
        	province = { }
      }
      #descendants of Bleddyn map Cynfyn Arwystli ac Angharad merch Maredudd Dinefwr 
      dynasty = {
      	id = { type = 12 id = 548 }
      	name = "Mathrafal"
      	province = { }
      }
      #descendants of Caradog map Iestyn map Gwrgant mab Ithel Ddu Morgannwg
      dynasty = {
      	id = { type = 12 id = 547 }
      	name = "Afen"
      	province = { }
      }
      #descendants of Cadwgan mab Elystan*
      dynasty = {
      	id = { type = 12 id = 702740137 }
      	name = "Cynllibiwg"
      	province = { }
      }
      If the main part of the dynasty was wiped out during the period and there weren't distant, legitimate cadet branches, these should not have province numbers. I'm not sure about Afen and Cynllibiwg though - perhaps they should spawn distant cousins in Morgannwg, Gwent, and Hereford.

      * See here for a discussion of the Cyllibiwg dynasty and its lands - I'll look over it but it might be that 1066 Hereford should be independent and Welsh or that Cyllibiwg courtiers in the other kingdoms should have a claim to it. Since his descendants took the name Cadogan, it might be more appropriate to call it "plant Cadwgan" but a) Cadwgan himself should be added and Cadwgan plant Cadwgan looks a little silly and b) using his domain is more in keeping with the other dynasties.
    • In addition, the game should include the following historical dynasties:

      Code:
      #descendents of Cunedda wledig mab Edern through Esyllt merch Cadell
      dynasty = {
      	id = { type = 12 id = 7027410811 }
      	name = "plant Cunedda" #currently given as Cunnedda*
        	province = { }
      }
      #descendents of Sandde Bryd Angel through Rhodri Mawr
      dynasty = {
      	id = { type = 12 id = 702740138 }
      	name = "Manaw"
        	province = { }
      }
      #descendents of Morgan Hen mab Owain through Gwrgant mab Ithel Ddu and including Cadwgan mab Morgan in the 1066 scenario
      dynasty = {
              id = { type = 12 id = 702740139 }
              name = "Morgannwg"
              province = { } 
      }
      #descendants of Caradog Breichfras through Morgan Hen mab Owain
      dynasty = {
              id = { type = 12 id = 702740141 }
              name = "plant Caradog"*
              province = { } 
      }
      #descendants of Cyndeyrn ap Gwrtheyrn [Vortigern] through Nest merch Cadell Powys and possibly the ap Seisyll kings of Gwynedd
      dynasty = {
              id = { type = 12 id = 702740140 }
              name = "Gwerthernion"
              province = { } 
      }
      #predecessors of Bleddyn's father Cynfyn map Gwerstan and descendents of his cousin Trahearn map Caradog
      dynasty = {
              id = { type = 12 id = 702740158 }
              name = "Arwystli"
              province = { 060 } 
      }
      [/color]
      *looking at Brychan Brycheiniog, Ceredig Ceredigion, Owain Cyfeiliog, and Morgan Morgannwg, should these more properly be something like Cuneddwg? Caradogion? Even though, of course, these people didn't really have surnames, but just knew that Cunedda was their great-great-great-grandfather, etc.
    • It's not perfect but here are my thoughts on
      The Fifteen Tribes of [North] Wales:

      Code:
      #descendants of Hwfa map Cynddelw, Lord of Llifon and steward to Owain Gwynedd
      #His sister and daughter both married Lord Rhys of Deheubarth
      dynasty = {
              id = { type = 12 id = 702740142 }
              name = "Llifon"
              province = { 018 060 064 065 } 
      }
      #descendants of Llywarch ap Bran, Lord of Menai and steward to Owain Gwynedd
      #His grand-daughter was the first wife of Llywelyn Fawr 
      dynasty = {
              id = { type = 12 id = 702740143 }
              name = "Menai"
              province = { 060 064 065 } 
      }
      #descendants of Gweirydd ap Rhys Goch, lord of Henllys
      dynasty = {
              id = { type = 12 id = 702740144 }
              name = "Henllys"
              province = { 060 064 065 } 
      }
      #descendants of Cilmin Troed-ddu Blackfoot map Cadrod map Gwriad Manaw, nephew of Merfyn Frych
      #ancestor of a number of judges and the Gilman and Wynn families
      dynasty = {
              id = { type = 12 id = 702740145 }
              name = "Gilmyn"
              province = { 060 064 065 } 
      }
      #descendants of Collwyn map Tango, lord of Efionydd
      dynasty = {
              id = { type = 12 id = 702740146 }
              name = "Efionydd"
              province = { 060 064 065} 
      }
      #descendants of Nefydd Hardd the Handsome, lord of Nant Conwy & murderer of Idwal map Owain Gwynedd
      dynasty = {
              id = { type = 12 id = 702740147 }
              name = "Nant Conwy"
              province = { 060 064 065 } 
      }
      #descendants of Maelog Crwm the Crooked, lord of  Llechwedd and y Creudyn
      dynasty = {
              id = { type = 12 id = 702740157 }
              name = "y Creudyn"
              province = { 060 064 065 } 
      }
      #descendants of Marchudd map Cynan, lord of Brynffenigl 
      #Ednyfed Fychan Brynffenigl map Cynwrig was chief chancellor and justice for Llywelyn Fawr, a general, and father of bishops and soldiers 1174-1246
      dynasty = {
              id = { type = 12 id = 702740156 }
              name = "Brynffenigl"
              province = { 060 064 065 } 
      }
      #descendants of Hedd Molwynog the Bald and Gray, lord of Talhaiarn
      #Hedd Molwynog was an esquire to Edward IV and a superintedent to Dafydd map Owain Gwynedd
      dynasty = {
              id = { type = 12 id = 702740155 }
              name = "Talhaiarn"
              province = { 060 064 065 } 
      }
      #descendants of Braint Hir the Tall, lord of Is Dulas
      dynasty = {
              id = { type = 12 id = 702740154 }
              name = "Is Dulas"
              province = { 060 064 065 } 
      }
      #descendants of Marchweithian map Tango, lord of Isaled
      dynasty = {
              id = { type = 12 id = 702740153 }
              name = "Isaled" 
              province = { 060 064 065 } 
      }
      #descendants of Edwin map Gronwy, lord of Tegaingl
      dynasty = {
              id = { type = 12 id = 702740152 }
              name = "Tegaingl"
              province = { 059 060 064 065 } 
      }
      #descendants of Ednywain Bendew
      #usually given as map Cynan, resident at but not lord of Tegaingl
      #this goes with his descent by Eva Morgannwg and Neiniad lord of Aberteifi (Cardigan)
      dynasty = {
              id = { type = 12 id = 702740148 }
              name = "Aberteifi"
              province = { 059 060 064 065 } 
      }
      #descendants of Efnydd Gwerngwy, lord of Dyffryn Clwyd
      dynasty = {
              id = { type = 12 id = 702740149 }
              name = "Dyffryn Clwyd"
              province = { 059 060 064 065 } 
      }
      #descendants of Ednywain ap Branwen, lord of Tal y bont 
      dynasty = {
              id = { type = 12 id = 702740151 }
              name = "Tal y bont"
              province = { 018 019 060 064 065 } 
      }
      #descendants of Tewdwr Trefor, lord of Powys, Hereford, and Gloucester
      #ancestor of Henries VII and VIII through his second son Dingad
      dynasty = {
              id = { type = 12 id = 702740150 }
              name = "Tewdwr"
              province = {  017 019 020 021 060 065 066 067 } 
      }
      
      Again, they wouldn't think of themselves by these names and would likely be called by their nearest relatives or their own place of residence. Still, courtiers from the period would very likely have been related to one of these clans. Would you rather they were all "plants?" "Plant Tango" would be fun...
    • The name notwithstanding the Fifteen Tribes of Wales are mostly just the families of Gwynedd and Powys. If you have any sources on the lesser nobility in Deheubarth, Morgannwg and Gwent, feel free to bust 'em out.

      Otherwise we could always just use six or ten of the commote and cantref names.
    • Currently, the dynasties.txt file also has

      Code:
      dynasty = {
      	id = { type = 12 id = 101910 }
      	name = "Dinefwr"
      	province = { }
      }
      dynasty = {
      	id = { type = 12 id = 101911 }
      	name = "Aberffraw"
      	province = { }
      }
      but no characters use them. They should probably be removed or used for one of the families of the lower nobility.
    • The dynasties.txt file also has these:

      Code:
      dynasty = {
      	id = { type = 12 id = 196 }
      	name = "of Gwynedd"
      	province = { }
      }
      dynasty = {
      	id = { type = 12 id = 549 }
      	name = "ap Cynfyn"
      	province = { }
      }
      Lazy leftovers from the vanilla scenarios. We've replaced the characters who use these or retitled their dynasties.

      Code:
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14250 }
      name = "ap Madog"
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14251 }
      name = "ap Einion" #should be ab
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14252 }
      name = "ap Iorwerth" #should be ab
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14253 }
      name = "ap Gronw"
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14254 }
      name = "ap Gwyn"
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14255 }
      name = "ap Cynwrig"
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14256 }
      name = "ap Cadwgan"
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14257 }
      name = "ap Rhiryd"
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14258 }
      name = "ap Gruffyd" #should be Gruffydd
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14259 }
      name = "ap Tegwared"
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14260 }
      name = "ap Meilyr"
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14261 }
      name = "ap Ednyfed" #should be ab
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14262 }
      name = "ap Gwrgenau"
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14263 }
      name = "ap Llewelyn" #should be Llywelyn, I think
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14264 }
      name = "ap Gwion"
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14265 }
      name = "ap Heilyn"
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14266 }
      name = "ap Cynddelw"
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14267 }
      name = "ap Madyn"
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14268 }
      name = "ap Meurig"
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14269 }
      name = "ap Llywarch"
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14270 }
      name = "ap Ednowain" #should be ab
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14271 }
      name = "ap Moriddig"
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14272 }
      name = "ap Cydifor"
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14273 }
      name = "ap Rhys"
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14274 }
      name = "ap Bleddyn"
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14275 }
      name = "ap Cynfnerth"
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14276 }
      name = "ap Maredudd"
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14277 }
      name = "ap Morfran"
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14278 }
      name = "ap Seisyll"
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14279 }
      name = "ap Deheuwynt"
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14280 }
      name = "ap Gwasdewi"
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14281 }
      name = "ap Llygad"
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14282 }
      name = "ap Ynyr" #should be ab
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      id = { type = 12 id = 14283 }
      name = "ap Gwogan"
      province = { 17 18 19 20 60 64 65 }
      }
      The idea is right that this is what people would actually be called and so it's good for flavor - still, to me, it's really off-putting to have patronymics that don't work. The first time that I pair off a daughter with one of these courtiers and the kid's born with the wrong name, it's just annoying.

      Code:
      dynasty = {
      	id = { type = 12 id = 100018 }
      	name = "of Dyfed" #should be Dyfed (no 'of')
      	province = { 18 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      	id = { type = 12 id = 100019 }
      	name = "of Glamorgan" #should be Morgannwg or maybe Brycheiniog to avoid confusion
      	province = { 19 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      	id = { type = 12 id = 100020 }
      	name = "of Gwent" #should be Gwent
      	province = { 20 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      	id = { type = 12 id = 100060 }
      	name = "of Perfeddwlad" #should be deleted
      	province = { 60 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      	id = { type = 12 id = 100064 }
      	name = "of Gwynedd" #should be Gwynedd
      	province = { 64 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      	id = { type = 12 id = 100065 }
      	name = "of Powys" #should be Powys
      	province = { 65 } #should be 60 and 65
      }
      Think it would be better to just use the main families above and maybe some of the cantrefs and commotes.

      Code:
      dynasty = {
      	id = { type = 12 id = 702740181 }
      	name = "Llanbadarn"
        	province = { 64 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      	id = { type = 12 id = 702740191 }
      	name = "Llancarfan"
        	province = { 19 }
      }
      dynasty = {
      	id = { type = 12 id = 70274010 }
      	name = "Gywysing"
        	province = { }
      }
      dynasty = {
      	id = { type = 12 id = 70274011 }
      	name = "Llewellyn"
        	province = { }
      }
      dynasty = {
      	id = { type = 12 id = 70274012 }
      	name = "Deheuwynt"
        	province = { }
      }
      dynasty = {
      	id = { type = 12 id = 70274105 }
      	name = "Gwened"
        	province = { }
      }
      dynasty = {
      	id = { type = 12 id = 702740121 }
      	name = "Llywelyn"
        	province = { }
      }
      Some of these look misspelt, but maybe they are here for historical reasons? Not sure. You use the Llywelyn dynasty for Gruffydd ap Llywelyn and co. but his family should be listed as Gwerthernions of Powys, as plant Llywelyn, or as Seisyllwg - although obviously they wouldn't be the same as the earlier kingdom of that name.

    Let me know what you think and IM me an email address and I can send text files if you don't want to cut and paste this stuff around.
    j.

    ps.

    lol! From this site:
    A testimony to the indomitable the Welsh fighting spirit is that there are more castles, or ruins of castles, to the square mile in Wales than anywhere else in the world.
    I don't know if that's really true, but it's certainly true in spirit.

    EDIT: Included.

    Could include an Arwystli, too, just to give Bleddyn Mathrafal some parental lineage:
    Quote Originally Posted by Wiki
    On the death of Bleddyn ap Cynfyn in 1075, it appears that none of his sons were old enough to claim the throne, and Bleddyn's cousin Trahaearn ap Caradog, seized power. The family is thought to have originated in Arwystli, on the border between Gwynedd and Powys.
    Last edited by Llywelyn; 02-01-2007 at 03:12.
    All Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia!
    The experience of our ancestors, ever incentives and aids to virtue, would never
    have inspired or saved a single soul, had not the loyalty, zeal, and diligence of writers
    triumphing over sloth transmitted them to posterity
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  11. #31
    Field Marshal Llywelyn's Avatar
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    1066 Setup

    Ok, think I've finally got a handle on the dynasties, so let's get at what you were asking for in the first place - thoughts about the mod setup and the characters, mostly leaving aside raw stats and traits for the moment.

    ===GWYNEDD===
    Has Gwynedd, Perfeddylad, Powys

    Ruler: Bleddyn Mathrafal (1025-)
    Father: Cynfyn of Gwynedd (978-1025)
    Mother: Angharad (974-1025)
    Stepfather: Llywelyn ap Seisyll (976-1023)
    Stepbrother: Gruffydd ap Seisyll (1003-1063)
    Wife: Haer (1025-)
    Son: Maredudd Mathrafal (1047-)
    Son: Cadwgan Mathrafal (1059-)
    Brother: Rhiwallon Mathrafal (1025-)
    Niece: Gwladys Mathrafal (1049-)
    Her husband: Rhys Edern (997-)
    Sister: Eferydd Mathrafal (1023-)
    Brother-in-Law: Edwyn Tegaingl (1020-)
    Nephew: Owain Tegaingl (1048-)

    Also: Trahaearn Dyfnallt (1036-)
    Also: Rhys Afen (1053-)
    Suggested changes:
    Has Gwynedd

    Ruler: Bleddyn map Cynfyn Mathrafal (1025-), claims on DEHE by right of his usurped step-brother
    Father: Cynfyn map Gwerstan Arwystli (978-1040?), resident of Powys
    Mother: Angharad merch Maredudd Dinefwr* (982-1040?), resident of Powys
    Stepfather: Llywelyn map Seisyll Seisyllwg** (976?-1023)
    Stepbrother: Gruffydd map Seisyll (1003-1063)
    Widow:Haer merch Gillyn Efionydd (1025-1049)
    Son: Maredudd map Bleddyn Mathrafal (1047-1132)
    Son: Madog map Bleddyn Mathrafal (1048?-1088)
    Son: Rhiryd map Bleddyn Mathrafal (1049-1088)
    Widow: ? merch Gruffydd map Carwed map Alaw
    Widow:? merch Brochwel Nwrcelyn (?-1052)
    Daughter: Hunydd merch Bleddyn Mathrafal (1050?-?)
    ***married to Rhys map Tewdwr Dinefwr

    Son: Cadwgan map Bleddyn Mathrafal (1051-1111)
    Son: Llywarch map Bleddyn Mathrafal (1052?-?)
    Wife: Morien map Idnerth Cynllibiwg (?)
    Son: Iorwerth map Bleddyn Mathrafal (1053-1111)
    Son: Rhiwallon map Bleddyn Mathrafal (1055?-)


    Also: Rhys Afen (1053-) - I'm not so sure who this is supposed to be. Rhys mab Iestyn Morgannwg was born in 1063, but what would he be doing in Gwynedd?
    I'm not sure about the dates on the weddings, but you might marry the boys off to their historical spouses early, since the players would marry them to Komnenoi princes and the heiress of Aquitaine and two free marriages is more than enough at game start.

    Perfeddylad would be a vassal under Rhiwallon to carry over the idea of his joint rule with Bleddyn.

    Rhiwallon map Cynfyn Mathrafal (1026-)
    ***Wife unknown...
    Son: Meilyr map Rhiwallon Mathrafal (?-1081)
    Daughter: Sioned merch Rhiwallon Mathrafal (?)

    Daughter: Gwladys merch Rhiwallon Mathrafal (1049-)
    Sister: Eferydd Mathrafal (1023-)
    Step?sister: Angharad merch Cynfyn Arwystli (1000-)
    ***wife of Gwrgant map Ithel Ddu Morgannwg and mother of Iestyn

    Brother-in-Law: Edwyn map Goronwy Tegaingl (1020-)
    Nephew: Owain mab Edwyn Tegaingl (1048-)

    Also: Rhys Edern (997-) - this might be right, but the genealogy sites say Gwladys's first marriage and child were to Walter de Windsor. . .


    Powys would be a vassal under Trahaiarn

    Trahaearn Dyfnallt map Caradog Arwystli (1036-), claims on Perfeddylad
    Wife: Nest merch Gruffydd Seisyllwg (1059-1125)

    Also: Maredudd map Gruffydd Seisyllwg (?-KIA 1070), claims on duchy and county of Gwynedd or all Welsh titles, since his father had unified the country
    Also: Idwal map Gruffydd Seisyllwg (?-KIA 1070), identical claims
    There's still more kids if you want 'em - eg, Bleddyn's got another daughter Eva by Haer, Haer had three daughters by her previous marriage to Cynfyn Hirdref who were married to local Welsh magnates, Bled's second wife gave him two boys Maelog and a second Rhirid who never did anything to speak of, another daughter by the third marriage - but they seemed the kind of things that should happen off-screen and some of them could have been later add-ons anyway.

    My thoughts - might prune back the kids he has, especially for the version to incorporate in IP2: although maybe it's not too much of an exploit... how many kids does England start out with?
    j.

    *d. Maredudd s. Owain s. Hwyel Dda Dinefwr
    **& Prawst d. Elise s. Anarawd Aberffraw
    Last edited by Llywelyn; 02-01-2007 at 03:14.
    All Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia!
    The experience of our ancestors, ever incentives and aids to virtue, would never
    have inspired or saved a single soul, had not the loyalty, zeal, and diligence of writers
    triumphing over sloth transmitted them to posterity
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  12. #32
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    ===MORGANNWG===

    Currently controls Glamorgan and Gwent

    Ruler: Cadwgan Afen (1042-)
    Father: Meurig Afen (1000-1065)
    Grandfather: Hywel Afen (969-1043)
    Granduncle: Ithel Ddu Afen (970-1041)
    First-Cousin-Once-Removed: Gwrgant Afen (1010-)
    Second-Cousin: Iestyn Afen (1050-)
    His widow: Angharad (1045-1066)
    Second-Cousin-Twice-Removed: Caradog Afen (1061-)
    Second-Cousin-Twice-Removed: Madog Afen (1062-)
    Second-Cousin-Twice-Removed: Rhys Afen (1063-)
    Second-Cousin-Twice-Removed: Morgan Afen (1064-)
    Second-Cousin-Twice-Removed: Nest Afen (1065-)

    Also: Herewald Llancarfan (1025-)
    His son: Lifris ap Herewald Llancarfan (1045-)
    His other son: Steffen ap Herewald Llancarfan (1050-)
    Suggested changes:

    Controls Morgannwg

    Ruler: Cadwgan map Meurig Morgannwg (1042-), claims on Gwent
    Father: Meurig map Hywel Morgannwg (1000-1065)
    Grandfather: Hywel mab Owain Morgannwg (969-1043)
    First-Cousin-Twice-removed: Ithel Ddu Morgannwg (970-1041)
    First-Cousin-Once-Removed: Gwrgant mab Ithel Morgannwg (1010-)
    His wife: Angharad merch Cynfyn Arwystli (1000-?)***
    Second cousin: Eva merch Gwrgant Morgannwg (1047-)
    Her husband: Neiniad map Gwaeddfod Aberteifi (?)
    Her son: Ednowain Bendew map Neiniad Aberteifi (?-1079)****
    Second cousin: Nest merch Gwrgant Morgannwg (1049-)

    Second Cousin: Iestyn map Gwrgant Morgannwg (1045*-)
    His widow: Angharad merch Elystan(1045-1066)
    Second-Cousin-Twice-Removed: Caradog mab Iestyn Afen* (1061-)
    Second-Cousin-Twice-Removed: Madog mab Iestyn Morgannwg (1062-)
    Second-Cousin-Twice-Removed: Rhys mab Iestyn Morgannwg (1063-)
    Second-Cousin-Twice-Removed: Morgan mab Iestyn Morgannwg (1064-)
    Second-Cousin-Twice-Removed: Nest merch Iestyn Morgannwg (1065-)
    His wife: Ddenyw merch Bleddyn Mathrafal (?)

    Also: Herewald Llancarfan (1025-)
    His son: Lifris map Herewald Llancarfan (1045-)
    His other son: Steffen map Herewald Llancarfan (1050-)
    Of course, Herewald should simply be a master theologian. The Brut is much less complimentary towards him compared with Sulien.

    Since Cadwgan is unrecorded as having any living offspring and his uncle differed to his rule knowing that Iestyn would take over, should probably essentially neuter Cad.

    Iestyn was "universally abhorred" for his profligacy and wastefulness. *cohole_in_the_pocketugh*

    *or you can leave it as Morgannwg, too
    **all those kids shoulda tipped you off - although the guy's fertility and health were off the chain: by his three wives, he had 19 children reach adulthood!
    ***the very respectable EBK gives an anonymous ferch Gwyn instead, but I think the perhaps less scholarly genealogy here is much more interesting
    ****the weakest part here: the genealogies are horribly muddled - some give Eva being born before her father, or giving birth to children before she was born: she's obviously been confused with someone else with a similar name and EBK omits her descendents, but since EB was the founder of one of the tribes and they claimed her, thought we should include him even if maybe he's the son of the Eva who married a Cynan

    Independent Gwent

    Ruler: Caradog map Gruffydd Ystrat Tywi (?), claims on Dyfed, Morgannwg and Deheubarth
    Father: Gruffydd map Rhydderch Ystrat Tywi (? - 1055), exceedingly treacherous and KIA
    Uncle: Rhydderch Ieuaf map Rhydderch Ystrat Tywi (?)
    Uncle: Hywel map Rhydderch Ystrat Tywi (? - 1077), KIA by Caradog map Gruffydd
    Uncle: Rhys map Rhydderch Ystrat Tywi (? - 1077), exceedingly treacherous and KIA by Caradog map Gruffydd
    Cousin: Meirchion map Rhys Ystrat Tywi (? - 1076), treacherous and KIA by Trahaiarn map Caradog
    Uncle: Caradog map Rhydderch Ystrat Tywi (? - 1033), KIA by Saxons
    Cousin: Rhydderch map Caradog Ystrat Tywi (? - 1074), killed by Meirchion map Rhys
    Grandfather : Rhydderch mab Iestyn Ystrat Tywi (? - 1031), KIA by Irish
    Wife: ? ()
    Son: Owain map Caradog Ystrat Tywi (?)

    Allied with France against Dyfed and Leicester's king Diarmait Machmael nam Bo, KIA 1072
    ...

    Heh. Nevermind - forgot the Brut calls Norman marcher lords "the French."
    Couldn't find too much about these guys' ancestry. What's here is what I could get out of the Brut y Tywysiog, which repeatedly calles them the men "of the Vale of Tywi." Imagine they're some cadet branch off of the Morgannwgs though.

    Owain map Caradog founded the line that ruled Caerllion and Gwynllwg, so you could also call him by either of those names. Likewise you could call the whole mess Gwent, but that's no fun.

    Sometimes wiki is just too great:
    Caerleon also has a renown for its propensity to bibulousness. A straw poll survey in 1981 discovered 41 separate locations where alcohol was to be had (40 if one discounts the local Roman Catholic church).
    Last edited by Llywelyn; 02-01-2007 at 04:40.
    All Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia!
    The experience of our ancestors, ever incentives and aids to virtue, would never
    have inspired or saved a single soul, had not the loyalty, zeal, and diligence of writers
    triumphing over sloth transmitted them to posterity
    . — John of Salisbury
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  13. #33
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    ==DEHEUBARTH==

    Currently controls Dyfed

    Ruler: Maredudd ap Seisyll (1040-)
    Father: Gruffydd ap Seisyll (1003-1063)

    Also: Sulien Llanbadarn (1020-)
    His Son: Rhygfarch ap Sulien (1045-)
    His Other Son: Ieuan ap Sulien (1050-)

    Also: Rhys ap Tewdwr Dinefwr (1025-)
    His Cousin: Maredudd ap Owain Dinefwr (1023-)
    His Other Cousin: Rhys ap Owain Dinefwr (1030-)
    Brother: Idwal ap Gruffydd Llywelyn (1043-), in Lancaster
    Sister: Nest ferch Gruffydd Llywelyn (1045-), in Hereford
    Stepmother: Eadgyth of Essex (1033-), in Denmark
    This is of course completely wrong: it's Maredudd Dinefwr who ruled Deheubarth in 1066, not Maredudd Seisyllwg.

    Suggested changes:

    Has Dyfed

    Ruler: Maredudd mab Owain mab Edwin Dinefwr (1023 - 1072), claims on Gwent and Morgannwg
    Son: Gruffydd map Maredudd Dinefwr (btwn. ? - 1091), born after 1066? bastard? - after father's death, held lands in Herefordshire
    Brother: Rhys mab Owain mab Edwin Dinefwr (1030 - 1078)
    Hywel map Owain map Edwin Dinefwr (? - 1078)
    Cousin: Rhys map Tewdwr Dinefwr (1040-)
    His Cousin's Wife: Gwladys merch Rhiwallon Mathrafal (1049-)

    Also: Sulien Llanbadarn (1020-)
    His Son: Rhygfarch map Sulien Llanbadarn (1045-)
    His Other Son: Ieuan map Sulien Llanbadarn (1050-)
    Hywel Dda had 8 kids besides Owain and Einion - I'm sure some of them had descendants but couldn't find any and I wanna watch a movie tonight anyway.

    The cousins for Rhys map Tewdwr are almost invisible on the genealogies, but maybe give them barren wives to encourage players to end up with Rhys on the throne. Or 0 or 1 fertility to force them to. Alternatively, just let it happen. . .

    Sulien should just be a master theologian, but deserves good prestige, piety. I'm concerned though that giving him such high ingame stats leads to silly player choices, though: Think about it - you'd never appoint him as bishop. You'd marry him to your daughter and make him your spy master or chancellor. I suppose there's an argument for church diplomacy, but he certainly shouldn't be leading armies well or roughing up peasants for taxes.

    Brother: Idwal map Gruffydd Seisyllwg (1043-), in Lancaster? - eh, maybe; do you know?
    Sister: Nest merch Gruffydd Seisyllwg (1045-), wouldn't be in Hereford since her husband there Osborn FitzRichard was 11 in 1066; perhaps easiest if she's already married to her future husband Trahaiarn map Caradog Arwystli, although one source I found gives Gruffydd two daughters named Nest and Trahaiarn's wasn't born until 1061
    Stepmother: Eadgyth of Essex (1033-), in Denmark ?
    ==OTHER==
    Also: Gruffydd of Dublin (1055-), in Dublin with claims on GWYN and LEIN
    His Father: Cynan of Dublin (1020-1061), in Dublin
    His Mother: Raghnild Olafssdottir of Dublin (1018-1065), in Dublin
    HEY! Completely randomly found this post by you looking for some of the Dinefwrs - looks like great minds think alike So you know what to do with this guy already.

    Why didn't you create the separate Gwent though? etc? It would improve game balance/interest, as long as the marriages and claims are right.

    I've been thinking of ways to create a "Welsh" feel to the game. I'm thinking events that either create alliances between Marcher lords and Welsh leaders or that just drop English Marcher lord loyalty, allowing alliances, would help.

    Also massive fertility for most of these guys and very good health (when they weren't KIA they lived into their fifties and seventies), but events killing off their heirs due to "boundary disputes," "minor lords," "son rises in revolt," etc. Normal Brut-y stuff. . .

    There probably isn't room in the IP for this, but for a welsh mod, we really should make Morgannwg and Powys independent duchies. Or better still make all the welsh duchies kingdoms proper, so they're always disintegrating after a death. The AI makes kingdoms, right?

    If only there were a Machiavellian option to exclude minority succession. . . Them Welshies were ruthless. . .
    Last edited by Llywelyn; 02-01-2007 at 17:13.
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  14. #34
    Buckler of Wales Drachenfire's Avatar
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    my gods you have been busy!!!! You make me wish to return! I love so many of your ideas... clearly you have already made these so in your own scenario? Butm some of your suggestions seem as though we are not tracking on the same page, when you found my older post, this is already completed in the Welsh Expansion, so were you refering to the vanillia? This and the generic dynasty names. It will be hard to play catch up with all of your research, so bear with me. It has been a bit since I lost interest here (no female rulership ) so am refreshing my interest in light of your entheusiam for a Welsh mod.



    Mab verses ap, I had spoken to a friend of mine (meeting through wikipedia) who told me that mab was early Welsh and was not used in middle Welsh for the periode of 1066 onwards. I did come across the sources you listed below, but they were from one single source and were in archaic form... even the spelling of the persons name, so was dubious of the use. It may have been a bardd who was using the archaic style, for instance. Personally, I prefer the contraction ap verses map, as it is more common in the sources I have seen.

    Llywellyn ap Gruffydd: You mentioned in a post below that he was of the Gwerthernion dynasty of Powys, how so? Everything I have seen shows that Gruffydd ap Seisyll (princess Anghared's first husband) was not himself of any notable decent. I did sucpect they were from Powys, mayhap a minor lord that Meredydd had married Anghared too. But, simularily Rhodri the Great's mother (Nest) was the last of the Gwertherion dynasty, as her brother was the last king there. Where can I see more on this?

    I did not research past Rhodri the Great and did designate his dynasty as "Cunedda", basing this on no other reason then stylaistic (and truely lack of not knowing what dynasty to assign him too, but knowing they all claim decent from Cunedda)

    Dynasties:

    I do not know much really of the Glamorgan/Morganwg dynasty... havent been able to find much information on them at all except from gleming from other sources. I did learn (juyst a few weeks ago) that a branch of them did not die out until the 14th century, and that their principle reisdence was a castle now burried under a hotel in Prort Talbolt! I did have intentions to list the last of their dynasty as a courtier in the county of Glamorgan in the 15th century scenario, as by then they were reduced to mere barons of Avene (Afen). This is where I had assigned the name Afen from, working backwards.


    I very much like the 15 tribes of North Wales/5 Royal Tribes, understanding of course they would not have known of themselves as such, but we assign them those dynastic names. It is very plausable that they would have developed this dynastic naming convention in the wider Western European sense. THESE are what I would have preferred in the origional expansion and would be most excellent.

    This, and also the use of commotes and other places within Gwynedd, Powys, Dyfed, ect. Also, the dropping of the 'of' (which I am sure I did on my own expansion, for at least the 1066). I did wish to leave some colorful last names and the like too.


    Give me a bit before you respond directly, this is as far as ive read of your postings.

    I did do away with the vanillia use of dynasty names,
    Last edited by Drachenfire; 03-01-2007 at 19:22.


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  15. #35
    Buckler of Wales Drachenfire's Avatar
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    Some of these look misspelt, but maybe they are here for historical reasons? Not sure. You use the Llywelyn dynasty for Gruffydd ap Llywelyn and co. but his family should be listed as Gwerthernions of Powys, as plant Llywelyn, or as Seisyllwg - although obviously they wouldn't be the same as the earlier kingdom of that name.


    I chose Llywellyn, and conversly added Llewellyn, because 1) Llywellyn ap Seisyl was king before his son, where as his father was not. (I listed hsi father as of Powys, I have only seen them described as non royal and not associated with the Gwerthernion family, though it could be possible).
    And 2) because my own family name is Llewellyn, so.... hehe.


    I do wish to keep Llanbadarn and Llancarfan, for the important church figures from there.


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  16. #36
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    my gods you have been busy!!!!
    You noticed. Do I get partial billing yet?

    It has been a bit since I lost interest here (no female rulership)
    Jeez, you really did take that hard. Too bad I can't code for beans.

    ...but they were from one single source and were in archaic form.
    No, you weren't listenning. Mary's one source for the works, but you can look all over the net. All of the main primary genealogical sources through the 14th century all use map. I just don't think it was archaic at all yet, even if perhaps it was only used on formal occasions (although I'm confused as to how informal, spoken usage would have survived - maybe in Gerald of Wales or the bards . . . ).

    The only reason (although I'll admit it's a good one) to use ap is that we won't be using a welter of Old Welsh spellings (which are consistent the same way that Shaxsperien Anglish is) the way the MS writers did and using ap would be more consistent with the current presentation of their names. People retroactively use ap to refer, eg, to Lly Fawr even though writers in his court used map.

    (and truely lack of not knowing what dynasty to assign him too, but knowing they all claim decent from Cunedda)
    Yeah, but the Welsh truly are Roman that way - they'll swing back and forth from male to female ancestors if it helps 'em sneak in a famous name that way.

    I did have intentions to list the last of their dynasty as a courtier in the county of Glamorgan in the [14]th century scenario, as by then they were reduced to mere barons of Avene (Afen).
    Yeah, put in an Afen (or Avene if that's better for 1337) there and one or two of the plant Owain Gwynedd somewhere around Wales (I finally realized I should just chart the whole damn mess and put it into the history forums for future games or AARists - I'll post a link when I'm done).

    . . .and also the use of commotes and other places within Gwynedd, Powys, Dyfed, [val]. . . I did wish to leave some colorful last names and the like too.
    It's late and not much, but Merry Christmas
    (Map of all the Welsh cantrefi from a website that's been down for 7 years & is invisible to Google - Talk about dumb luck)

    j.
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  17. #37
    Buckler of Wales Drachenfire's Avatar
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    Ohkay, now I shall work on a Welsh Expansion Alpha. The Beta was to see if there were any issues such as crash to desktop or what not. Yes, you of corse shall get credit too, I am simply glad to have someone else interested in Welsh dynasties to work with me on this.

    But I wish to by systematic about this. The goals will be the same:

    I. Welsh Expansion mod most compatable with other mods. This means of corse the scope of this expansion will only effect Wales and Welsh dynasties. Most others do not mod them so it should be easy for them to use the in conjunction with their other mods. I know I will definetly wish this to be compatable with the Angle Land mod of Anglo-Saxon England.

    II. Welsh Events: For these, I think farming them off to BOPACk would be best. Some time ago I had already posted there and they responded simply to suggest such events and they would include them. I think this would be best, as I have not yet learned how to script myself and they are the masters.

    III. Here be Dragons: Shall be the working title to the Welsh Expansion that adds far more in scope. The title is in honor of Sharon Kay Penman's book, following the Aberffraw dynasty from Llywelyn Fawr as the first Prince of Wales to his grandsons Llywelyn ap Gruffydd and Dafydd ap Gruffydd. In this, we shall make a duchy of Powys, a duchy of Morganwg, and duchy of Gwent. I think we should detach ducy of Cornwall and Warwick from the Kingdom of England so as to let them represent a 'marcher' realm between Wales and England for possible expansion. Additionally, I envision a 'Kingdom of Brittany,' and a 'Kingdom of the Isles,' and 'Kingdom of Aquitainia,' and 'Kingdom of Lothringia.' I have always wanted to play a mod with those possible kingdom titles too.


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  18. #38
    Buckler of Wales Drachenfire's Avatar
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    Ok, I have added the "15 tribes" dynasty list. Some of which listed there are already in the game elsewhere. There are some "unused' dynasty tags... the reason is because I never deleted any files when creating the mod. For instance the de Courniaulle dynasty tag remained, but I created another dynasty tag adding Kernw dynasty, and reassigned them to this one. The same holds true for most of the Welsh dynasties. I did not change the of Gwynedd dynasty so much as added the Aberffraw dynasty and reassigned the members from one to the other. There are exceptions, such as the Cynfyn to Mathrafal dynasty... but that was an easy fix.


    I have changed Cunedda to Manaw (dynasty tag: 7027410811).


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  19. #39
    Buckler of Wales Drachenfire's Avatar
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    These are the corrected Breton dynasties. I did not change or remove the other dynasty names, so much as reassigned the Breton characters to this corrected Breton dynasty name list. This was dont previously.

    Code:
    }
    dynasty = {
    	id = { type = 12 id = 70274101 }
    	name = "Roazhn"
      	province = { }
    }
    dynasty = {
    	id = { type = 12 id = 70274102 }
    	name = "Penthievre"
      	province = { }
    }
    dynasty = {
    	id = { type = 12 id = 70274103 }
    	name = "Leon"
      	province = { }
    }
    dynasty = {
    	id = { type = 12 id = 70274104 }
    	name = "Kernow"
      	province = { }
    }
    dynasty = {
    	id = { type = 12 id = 70274105 }
    	name = "Gwened"
      	province = { }
    }
    dynasty = {
    	id = { type = 12 id = 70274106 }
    	name = "Naoned"
      	province = { }
    Last edited by Drachenfire; 08-01-2007 at 21:30.


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  20. #40
    Buckler of Wales Drachenfire's Avatar
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    Aberffraw and Dinefwr: both created from scratch. All the of Gwynedd dynasty members found in the Third Crusade scenario start are unassigned from the of Gwynedd tag (which I am leaving in place) and reassigned here. Also, both Gruffydd ap Cynan (found as Gruffydd of Dublin in Vanilla) and his father Cynan have been reassigned to this Aberffraw dynasty (but this had been done in the prior expansion). One thing of note, is Princess Emma, Dafydd's wife, supposed to be located in the English court? I think she needs to be reassigned to the duchy of Gwynedd.

    Code:
    }
    dynasty = {
    	id = { type = 12 id = 70274064 }
    	name = "Aberffraw"
      	province = { }
    }
    dynasty = {
    	id = { type = 12 id = 70274018 }
    	name = "Dinefwr"
      	province = { }
    I am keeping these dynasties because they have already been established as the church figures, next I will edit their traits down.

    Why didn't you create the separate Gwent though? etc? It would improve game balance/interest, as long as the marriages and claims are right.
    I simply hadnt gotten to that yet, I did create the Gywysing for the dynasty in Gwent... (I had never created the members)... but you say it should be named a differenty dynasty above.

    Brother: Idwal map Gruffydd Llywelyn (1043-), in Lancaster? - eh, maybe; do you know? I dont know, chose Lancaster as reasonable given that many displaced exiles crossed the border seeking aid.

    Sister: Nest merch Gruffydd Llywelyn (1045-), wouldn't be in Hereford since her husband there Osborn FitzRichard was 11 in 1066; perhaps easiest if she's already married to her future husband Trahaiarn map Caradog Arwystli, although one source I found gives Gruffydd two daughters named Nest and Trahaiarn's wasn't born until 1061.

    If we can find speciffically where the children of King Gruffydd went into exile between 1063 and 1066 I would of corse prefer to place them there. Otherwise, I would suggest simply leaving Nest married to Osbern FitzRichart. For, as the reasons you say, Trahaiarn is even younger. Nest is important, because if her brothers remain unwed (as is likely with the AI) then it is Nest's children that would inherit claims to Wales and potentially half of England (as through Eadith the boys would possibly have claims of Mercia too).

    Code:
    }
    dynasty = {
    	id = { type = 12 id = 702740181 }
    	name = "Llanbadarn"
      	province = { 64 }
    }
    dynasty = {
    	id = { type = 12 id = 702740191 }
    	name = "Llancarfan"
      	province = { 19 }
    }
    dynasty = {
    	id = { type = 12 id = 70274010 }
    	name = "Gywysing"
      	province = { }
    Im keeping the Llewellyn dynasty in as it is my personal dynasty name, hehe. And I like Deheuwynt (South-Wind) too.

    Code:
    }
    dynasty = {
    	id = { type = 12 id = 70274011 }
    	name = "Llewellyn"
      	province = { }
    }
    dynasty = {
    	id = { type = 12 id = 70274012 }
    	name = "Deheuwynt"
      	province = { }

    Cunedda is now changed to Manaw per your observations. I chose Llywelyn as the dynasty name for the decendents of Llywelyn ap Gruffydd because Llywelyn was the first king of their line, not his father Siessyll. I shall unassign Nest from marriage to FitzRichard if you say he is too young in the 1066 scenario, but where would she be then before the marriage?

    Eadith of Mercia (in turn Queen of Wales then England) (she is currently located in Denmark in Vanilla-and I didnt move her) was incorrectly listed to the of Essex dynasty (I think she was confused with anther Eadith of Essex, also a relation). She was the daughter of the Earl of Merica, and married to King Gruffydd ap Llywelyn to form allience between the Wales and Mercia. So I added the of Mercia dynasty and reassigned her there (And recreated her father too). I am not moving her from Denmark as I do not know how this would effect other scenarios (unless anyone else knows where she went into exile to).

    What follows are some generic Breton dynasty names for Brittany. But also the Norman-French de Avennes dynasty for possible addition of the last of the Afen dynasty in the last scenario (by then they had become the Barons of Avenne- modern day Port Talbot in Glamorgan) Corbet is added as the step family of Llywellyn Fawr and the characters I was to add on the marches for them. Lastly comes the dynasties you offer for the 15 tibes, which more or less are the native lordships and comotes for Wales.

    Code:
    }
    dynasty = {
    	id = { type = 12 id = 7027410811 }
    	name = "Manaw"
      	province = { }
    }
    dynasty = {
    	id = { type = 12 id = 702740121 }
    	name = "Llywelyn"
      	province = { }
    }
    dynasty = {
    	id = { type = 12 id = 702740122 }
    	name = "FitzRichard"
      	province = { }
    }
    dynasty = {
    	id = { type = 12 id = 702740123 }
    	name = "of Mercia"
      	province = { }
    }
    dynasty = {
    	id = { type = 12 id = 702740124 }
    	name = "Breizh"
      	province = { 102 103 104 105 }
    }
    dynasty = {
    	id = { type = 12 id = 702740125 }
    	name = "de Bretagne"
      	province = { 101 106}
    }
    dynasty = {
    	id = { type = 12 id = 702740126 }
    	name = "Kerouac"
      	province = { 101 102 103 104 105 106 }
    }
    dynasty = {
    	id = { type = 12 id = 702740127 }
    	name = "Paignon"
      	province = { 101 102 103 104 105 106 }
    }
    dynasty = {
    	id = { type = 12 id = 702740128 }
    	name = "Sant Nazar"
      	province = { 101 102 103 104 105 106 }
    }
    dynasty = {
    	id = { type = 12 id = 702740129 }
    	name = "Tanguy"
      	province = { 101 102 103 104 105 106 }
    }
    dynasty = {
    	id = { type = 12 id = 702740131 }
    	name = "Parisy"
      	province = { 101 102 103 104 105 106 }
    }
    dynasty = {
    	id = { type = 12 id = 702740132 }
    	name = "An Oriant"
      	province = { 101 102 103 104 105 106 }
    }
    dynasty = {
    	id = { type = 12 id = 702740133 }
    	name = "Herve"
      	province = { 101 102 103 104 105 106 }
    }
    dynasty = {
    	id = { type = 12 id = 702740134 }
    	name = "de Avennes"
      	province = { 101 106}
    }
    dynasty = {
    	id = { type = 12 id = 702740135 }
    	name = "Sant Brieuc"
      	province = { 101 102 103 104 105 106 }
    }
    dynasty = {
    	id = { type = 12 id = 702740136 }
    	name = "Sant Mikael"
      	province = { 101 102 103 104 105 106 }
    }
    dynasty = {
    	id = { type = 12 id = 802740136 }
    	name = "Corbet"
      	province = { }
    }
    dynasty = {
    	id = { type = 12 id = 702740137 }
    	name = "Cynllibiwg"
    	province = { }
    }
    dynasty = {
            id = { type = 12 id = 702740139 }
            name = "Morgannwg"
            province = { } 
    }
    dynasty = {
            id = { type = 12 id = 702740142 }
            name = "Llifon"
            province = { 018 060 064 065 } 
    }
    dynasty = {
            id = { type = 12 id = 702740143 }
            name = "Menai"
            province = { 060 064 065 } 
    }
    dynasty = {
            id = { type = 12 id = 702740144 }
            name = "Henllys"
            province = { 060 064 065 } 
    }
    dynasty = {
            id = { type = 12 id = 702740145 }
            name = "Gilmyn"
            province = { 060 064 065 } 
    }
    dynasty = {
            id = { type = 12 id = 702740146 }
            name = "Efionydd"
            province = { 060 064 065} 
    }
    dynasty = {
            id = { type = 12 id = 702740147 }
            name = "Nant Conwy"
            province = { 060 064 065 } 
    }
    dynasty = {
            id = { type = 12 id = 702740157 }
            name = "Llechwedd"
            province = { 060 064 065 } 
    }
    dynasty = {
            id = { type = 12 id = 702740156 }
            name = "Brynffenigl"
            province = { 060 064 065 } 
    }
    dynasty = {
            id = { type = 12 id = 702740155 }
            name = "Talhaiarn"
            province = { 060 064 065 } 
    }
    dynasty = {
            id = { type = 12 id = 702740154 }
            name = "Is Dulas"
            province = { 060 064 065 } 
    }
    dynasty = {
            id = { type = 12 id = 702740153 }
            name = "Isaled" 
            province = { 060 064 065 } 
    }
    dynasty = {
            id = { type = 12 id = 702740148 }
            name = "Aberteifi"
            province = { 059 060 064 065 } 
    }
    dynasty = {
            id = { type = 12 id = 702740149 }
            name = "Dyffryn Clwyd"
            province = { 059 060 064 065 } 
    }
    dynasty = {
            id = { type = 12 id = 702740151 }
            name = "Tal y bont"
            province = { 018 019 060 064 065 } 
    }
    dynasty = {
            id = { type = 12 id = 702740158 }
            name = "Arwystli"
            province = { 060 } 
    }
    Last edited by Drachenfire; 08-01-2007 at 21:41.


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