Welsh Expansion discussion thread

Drachenfire · Oct 11, 2006

(This is the discussion thread for the Welsh Expansion mod, that can be downloaded here).

I shall rezip using the list by Veld. Its a trial and error thing as Ive never posted like this before. This weekend I am to work on fleshing out more of the Welsh dynasties in the 3rd Crusade and also the last scenario. Then work on the BOPACk thing with Welsh specific events.

When I return home today I shall work with it.

Once I complete it, I wish to know how long Wales lasts in your game play.

LlywelynII · Oct 13, 2006

...how long the Welsh dynasties last

Well, a little less than a year, since the game CsTD in 1066 and in the 1100s right before my first children are supposed to be born. Also, the dynasties don't appear to be changed at all (eg, in 1066, the family running Gwynedd is still called Cynfyn instead of what you have listed above).

I made some changes for my Nubian game, but none that should be affecting stability, since I integrated or used all your files for the game. Is anyone else having stability issues? Did something important get left out of the *.zip?

j.

EDIT: Also, what's with the *19* diplomacy priest who has *every* clerical trait.

We aren't talking about St. Patrick here...

Drachenfire · Oct 13, 2006

Llywelyn said:
Well, a little less than a year, since the game CsTD in 1066 and in the 1100s right before my first children are supposed to be born. Also, the dynasties don't appear to be changed at all (eg, in 1066, the family running Gwynedd is still called Cynfyn instead of what you have listed above).

I made some changes for my Nubian game, but none that should be affecting stability, since I integrated or used all your files for the game. Is anyone else having stability issues? Did something important get left out of the *.zip?

j.

EDIT: Also, what's with the *19* diplomacy priest who has *every* clerical trait. We aren't talking about St. Patrick here...

If the dynasty ruling Gwynedd is not renamed Mathrafal in 1066 then it is not the expansion. /sigh. Is anyone else having this issue?

LlywelynII · Oct 13, 2006

Drachenfire said:
If the dynasty ruling Gwynedd is not renamed Mathrafal in 1066 then it is not the expansion. /sigh. Is anyone else having this issue?

No, it is - I just think maybe the 1066_dynasty_blahblahblah file might need to have its information in the \config\dynasty.txt file instead. Maybe if I change that it'll fix the problem... I'm gonna play some more Khazars first, though.

Ten rapid CsTD gets dispiriting.

j.

Veldmaarschalk · Oct 13, 2006

Oops !

o

I haven't tested it yet, and don't have the time either to test it

But yes

db/dynasties.txt should also be in the file

the dynasties files in the scenarios folder aren't used, they are overwritten by the dynasties file in the db folder

Drachenfire · Oct 13, 2006

so... do I need to repost?? did I do something incorrect this go round?

LlywelynII · Oct 13, 2006

Drachenfire said:
so... do I need to repost?? did I do something incorrect this go round?

Heh, you just got ... incomplete advice

which is now complete

The information in your two scenario dynasty files needs to be combined and put into one dynasty.txt that will go into the db folder instead of the scenario folder.

I think that should solve my problem, since the CsTD were all around the time it would be curious what that new dynasty is supposed to be called and couldn't find it...

j.

Drachenfire · Oct 13, 2006

okokokokok

Try now. I am looking for the dynamics on how the Welsh dynasties play out, how long they survive under normal and the next levels up.

I am to suggest these changes for Wales in the 1.06 project.

LlywelynII · Oct 22, 2006

Not sure about your interest in how long the dynasties last, but it's great to have them, have them be correct, and feel more welshy.

My Afens will be around a while - they're married into the Breton nobility and (different ones) are dukes of ulster, toulouse, and artois. problem is they're all italian, irish, breton, norman

from their moms, so i'm thinking i'll restart unless something fun happens soon.

Something you might want to try would be an event making Welsh rulers in Wales be more likely to rebel, as long as their provinces are Welsh culture and they're ruled by ... well, anyone.

Btw, also need to have the ipack guys edit the config/worldnames.txt if you want to change Celtic > Breton.

j

Veldmaarschalk · Oct 22, 2006

In the Improvement packs, Celtic is already renamed to Breton culture and so are the provinces and characters in Brittany in all 3 scenarios

Drachenfire · Oct 22, 2006

are they using true Breton versions of the names? I searched long and hard for Breton names and a few Breton specific dynasties. My hardest was locating Breton versions of Hawise and Odo.

If the Afens marry outside of Wales into England or France, it would be correct to change their name to de Avene, as they did historically in the 1300's, when they were by then reduced from princes of Glamorgan to mere barons of a demise around the Afen river.

edit: another thing I noticed was I added an extra N to the dynaty Cunedda, so it appeares as Cunnedda. In my scenario I corrected it but it seemed to small to simply change without greater additions to the sencario.

shortly. It seemed a small thing to repost the scenario at the moment. I am cutting and pasting different parts of the scenario for the 1.06 patch, I hope the use them. But I dont know if they will.

Also, I think I may have included French versions of some of the names: de Avens and de Mathraval, and even von Mathraval if they become more German. I dont know how to translate Llywellyn or Dinefwr into French, but I did include a d'Aberffraw. How would you translate that do you think? d'Aberfraux? Aberffraw means Mounth of the river Ffraw.

by the by, I am curious as to how playing a Welsh dynasty might have changed, what are the expierences one has now, playing it more fully and better represented.

Drachenfire · Oct 26, 2006

Llywelyn said:
Well, a little less than a year, since the game CsTD in 1066 and in the 1100s right before my first children are supposed to be born. Also, the dynasties don't appear to be changed at all (eg, in 1066, the family running Gwynedd is still called Cynfyn instead of what you have listed above).

I made some changes for my Nubian game, but none that should be affecting stability, since I integrated or used all your files for the game. Is anyone else having stability issues? Did something important get left out of the *.zip?

j.

EDIT: Also, what's with the *19* diplomacy priest who has *every* clerical trait. We aren't talking about St. Patrick here...

Well, this is where I need feedback. There are two very important leading church figures that were exceptional for their times. Sulien of Llanbadarn who became bishop of St. Davids in Dyfed, and Herewald of Llancarfan who became bishop of Llantwit Major. Between the two and their sons, they have contributed so much to the Welsh church and in eccelestical matters in Wales, these years were very significant. I do not know which traits would best represent that, I was partially trying to make it so the AI would appoint them as court bishop.

Let me know what is more reasonable for these individuals.

LlywelynII · Nov 7, 2006

a.

I'm going to post up a picture AAR of an 1187 Aberffraw game soon - feel free to ask any questions.

b.

I guess it's all relative, but anything north of 15 should really be reserved for exceptional people: eg, Llywelyn Fawr's 17 martial stat seems reasonable - he didn't conquer England but he was one of the best soldiers Wales ever produced and is still known today. A 19 should be saved for a St. Aquinas or a St. Bernard. In any case, he should simply be a master theologian.

c.

Llywelyn's dad should be Iorwerth Drwyndwn (sp?) or Iorwerth Drwyndwn the Broken-Nosed or Iorwerth Broken-Nosed instead of Iorwerth ab Owain. It's funny and accurate.

Likewise, Iorwerth's pa should be Owain Gwynedd, not Owain ap Gruffydd. There were two Owain ap Gruffydds at the time, so he seems pretty universally referred to as the former. Also, wiki sez he should be excommunicated.

It doesn't kill anyone to add Maelgwn in - he was Iorwerth's older brother and was likely executed by Dafydd in the wars following Owain's death.

d.

Wonder if it's possible to edit the map so that Anglesly shows up... I never knew before that the princes of Wales had their capital off the mainland. It'd be fun to see.

j.

Drachenfire · Nov 9, 2006

Llywelyn said:
a.

I'm going to post up a picture AAR of an 1187 Aberffraw game soon - feel free to ask any questions. CANT WAIT!
b.

I guess it's all relative, but anything north of 15 should really be reserved for exceptional people: eg, Llywelyn Fawr's 17 martial stat seems reasonable - he didn't conquer England but he was one of the best soldiers Wales ever produced and is still known today. A 19 should be saved for a St. Aquinas or a St. Bernard. In any case, he should simply be a master theologian. You are speaking of the Llanbardan and Llancarfan family of chuchmen in the 1066 Hastings Start yes? They do need tweeking. I did no tweeking to any other senario characters. What are your suggestions to these very important Welsh church leaders?

c.

Llywelyn's dad should be Iorwerth Drwyndwn (sp?) or Iorwerth Drwyndwn the Broken-Nosed or Iorwerth Broken-Nosed instead of Iorwerth ab Owain. It's funny and accurate.

Likewise, Iorwerth's pa should be Owain Gwynedd, not Owain ap Gruffydd. There were two Owain ap Gruffydds at the time, so he seems pretty universally referred to as the former. Also, wiki sez he should be excommunicated.

I LOVE the nicknames. However I chose instead the Paradox naming convention excluding them. If there were a format for them I would add them. The only exception was with Hywl Dda Dinefwr. We could add Owian ap Gruffydd Gwynedd Aberffraw in a later version.

It doesn't kill anyone to add Maelgwn in - he was Iorwerth's older brother and was likely executed by Dafydd in the wars following Owain's death. Agreed! I want to more fully show Llywellyn's mothers connection to the Mathrafal dynasty. She was the grandaughter to Meredudd ap Bleddyn Mathrafal, the son of Bleddyn ap Cynfyn Mathrafal we see in the 1066 scenario.

d.

Wonder if it's possible to edit the map so that Anglesly shows up... I never knew before that the princes of Wales had their capital off the mainland. It'd be fun to see. Yes, they had it there for maybe the first hundred plus years, before moving to Aber on the mainland. Llywellyn the Great made his capital nominally at Aber, near Bandor towards the Conwy.
Gods I wish we could. The current map is ill formed.

j.

What is interesting, also, is the senior Aberffraw dynasty did not die out in the male line until the 18th century, though they were reduced to the gentry class. By the 16th century, they adopted Wynn (meaning Holy) as their sir name, and in the 17th century won a legal battle that recognized their claim to the title Prince of Wales, de jure.

Eventually, the last Wynn, Sir Sion Wynn of Wynnstay, 4th Baronet, died without children, and the claims and estates passed to his distant cousin Jane Wynn Thewell. Jane was at the time married to Sir William Williams, 3rd Baronet. In honor of Jane's ancestry as a Welsh heiress, the Williams and Wynn dynasties were united under the new name Williams-Wynn.

Today, the decendent of Jane and William is Sir David Watkin Williams-Wynn of Wynnstay, 11th Baronet. According to the 17th century court case, and to Welsh law, he may be the de jure Prince of Wales. Curiously, his son and possibly heir is named Charles Edward Watkin Williams-Wynn. It seems the family went English only this past generation! lol. If he rendered it in Welsh, it would be Siarl Iowerth Watcyn Williams-Wynn (b. 1970). I would hope he does indeed change it.

The Wynnstay estates are located in Dynbych, or Dinbigh.

LlywelynII · Nov 11, 2006

Drachenfire said:
stuff

I like the format of quoting inside the quote, too, but it does make it harder to reply to anything that you say, since it won't show up.

What is interesting, also, is the senior Aberffraw dynasty did not die out in the male line until the 18th century,

Yeah, but apparently it wasn't Lly's line, but one of the legions of other kids from Owain Gwynedd. (Wiki)

More stuff.

Hum. Maybe you should put some of that research over on the history forum, in case people from, eg, Eu2 want to go looking for it.

In any case,

There is a format for it: eg, Llywelyn Fawr ap Iorwerth - Lly the Great, son of Iorwerth. Owain ap Gruffydd Gwynedd would mean Owain son of Gruffydd Gwynedd, not Owain Gwynedd son of Gruffydd; some genealogies call Owain's kids ap Owain Gwynedd, but I think that's obnoxious and unnecessary, especially in a game where you can click upscreen to find which dad he had. Alternatively and more commonly, you use patronymics for those without epithets and epithets without patronymics: eg, Llywelyn Fawr and his uncle Dafydd ab Owain.

The only real complication is what to do about making it sensible. Do you keep the Welsh (good flavor)? Do you use the translation (less flavor and harder to work with a patronymic - Llywelyn the Great ap Iorwerth sounds a little awkward)? or do you use both (Llywelyn Fawr the Great; Hywel Dda the Good)? It's a little awkward, too, but it gives flavor and information - just leave off the patronymic.

I myself like the first and the third ones and not the second one.
Unless you know Welsh, maybe we should keep a list somewhere for words new players can use for their Welshmen.

Mawr/Fawr the Great
y Brydydd the Poet
Hen the Elder
Make that the first complication. The second (you might already know this - I didn't) is that Welsh mutates so that, eg, Rhys the Great is Rhys Mawr but Llywelyn the Great is Llywelyn Fawr. So you have to watch for that. For adjectives you don't use an article (eg, Llwelyn the Great but Llywelyn Fawr), but for nouns you do (eg, William the Scot is William yr Albonwr) and it changes from 'r (preceded by vowel) to yr (followed but not preceded by vowel) to y (consonants on both side).

The patronymic changes, too - usually it's ap but sometimes it's ab in front of a vowel (or ferch/verch), but the Welsh idea of vowels is different from the English one: eg, it's Llywelyn ap Iorwerth even though it's Iorwerth ab Owain. So some (but not all) of those need to be fixed.
The church leaders should be given master theologian and nothing else - great ones should be great (12+), good ones should only be good (7-11), and normal ones should be normal (5-9). They should not be good at everything. Truly great church leaders have very little experience on a battlefield, but may have experience running their "business" and dealing with its politics (D,I,S). Normal churchmen should just be good at diplo and maybe one other field.

It's all about balance. Wales might have been blessed, but it wasn't blessed with the second-coming - and remember that players will breed with these living gods and their daughters.
I'll add other stuff as I come to it, but I suggest if you get the time, just poke around on Wiki for some flavor you can add.

Eg, Owain Gwynedd was excommunicated at the time of his death, and Owain Cyfeiliog (is this right? and your mod (Cyfelliog) wrong? or does Wiki need to be emended?) followed suit in 1188 when he wouldn't meet with or support the archbishop of Canterbury's tour for Crusade. I think it could be added early and give Wales an impetuous to remove him from power as fast as possible before England (as historically) annexes Powys.

Here is a genealogy from Owain Cyfeiliog back to Bleddyn ap Cynfyn from the 1066 scenario. I don't think it's important to add everyone - some of these families are huge - but I do think it's very nice to add that: yknow, the chain of fathers (or some mothers) connecting the various families between realms and scenarios. Similarly, here's a list of Owain Gwynedd's kids - the important dead ones or still living ones could be added for flavor. Ffilip is a ffunny name.

Adding Lly's brother in Ireland didn't seem to matter much (guess it does for Irish games, though, huh? ).

The Iorwerth Redaction is thought to represent the law as modified in Gwynedd during the reign of Llywelyn the Great in the first part of the 13th century by the jurist Iorwerth ap Madog.

Click to expand...

Should he show up? or him?
It's too bad you can't mimic poetry - apparently Owain Cyfeiliog and a few of Owain Gwynedd's children were good ones. Maybe some flavor events.

Welsh flavor events: liege or son studies poetry (hurts attention (S/I), removes bb, improves D); support the poets (cash for prestige); - this is necessary - legitamization events for every bastard (in Wales, it was very common to acknowledge your children, and they were thereafter given completely equal rights - although (and this could show up) the church hated the practice); extra rebellion events for family members or events removing claims (Wales was terrifically disorganized and tended to stay that way - maybe you could even have events +1 or -1 income as different minor "kingdoms" come in or out of control thanks to conditions; or make minor rebellion events similar to the Boar Hunt - chance at injury or death but also chances to secure extra cash or good traits; you'd have to limit it to when the player's a minor Welsh power though); pious lords dedicate new monasteries or abdicate to retire to them (give players an opt out on that); maybe some silly event when sheep are discovered

Wiki on Welsh poetic traditions and Medieval lit.

The manuscript also contains a collection of herbal remedies associated with Rhiwallon Feddyg, founder of a medical dynasty that lasted over 500 years - 'The Physicians of Myddfai'.

Click to expand...

Also, there are some interesting things you could use here, especially in the section on women. I'd especially like amobr payments.

Feel free to tinker with those.

Look at BOPACK for examples, plus Havard and Veld have some guides up and answer questions about scripting, if you haven't been looking at it already - or post rough event structures to the IP forum and ask for feedback about balance.

LlywelynII · Nov 11, 2006

the I-V: Un Dau Tri Pedwar Pump (pum before consonants)
the VI-X: Chwech (/chwe) Saith Wyth Naw Deg

REEDIT:
List of Welsh epithets with examples if found
[?] means I have no idea what meaning is intended

Emrys Ambrosius (by extension, sometimes the Immortal) - Myrddin Emrys
Difyr the Amusing
Benuchel the Arrogant (lit., the High-head) - Gwibei Benuchel, Sawyl Benuchel
Saeth the Arrow
Drwg the Bad - Drwg ferch Bwlch
Foel the Bald - Idwal Foel
Molwynog the Bald and Gray - Rhodri Molwynog
Moelmud the Bald and Silent - Dyfnwal Moelmud
yr Anwar the Barbarian - Cwnyn yr Anwar
Marchawc Trin the Battle Horseman (ie, the Knight) - Gwallawc Marchawc Trin
Caddoc Battle-hungry - Caddawg
Cadwaladr Battle-leader - Cadwaladr
Cadeyrn Battle-prince - Cadeyrn
Cadfael Battle-prince - Cadfael
Sarffgadau the Battle-serpent - Selyf Sarffgadau ap Cynan
Cadomedd the Battle-shirker - Cadafael Cadomedd
Arth the Bear
Barfog the Bearded - Gwynlliw Barfog
Strada the Beautiful - Ystradwal Strada
Hardd the Beautiful (also the Handsome) - Nefydd Hardd
Caradawg the Beloved - Caradawg
Gendawd Bigchin - Gendawd
Geri the Bitter
Ddu the Black - Gwen Ddu
Troeddu Blackfoot - Cilmin Troeddu
Finddu Blacklips - Owain Finddu
Fendigaid the Blessed - Bran Vendigaid, Cadwaladr Fendigaid
Cuneglas Blue Hound - Cuneglas Goch
Glew the Brave - Bywyr Lew
Llurugawc of the Breastplate - Lludd Llurugawc
Ledewig the Breton - Eneas Ledewig
Breit the Bright - Cain Breit
Bryd Angel Bright Angel - Sanddef Bryd Angel
Llydaw of Brittany - Emyr Llydaw [=Budic II]
Hydr the Bold
Cath the Cat - Cath Palug [Welsh supercat born of Henwen the Pig]
Karnaflawc Cloven-hoof - [horse name]
Emlyn the Charming
Cristnogol the Christian
Drwsgl the Clumsy - Cynfelyn Drwsgl
Cernyw the Cornish (or of Cornwall) - March Cernyw
Corneu the Cornish - Tudfwlch Corneu
Braen the Corrupt
Mwynfawr the Courteous - Elidyr Mwynfawr, Morgan Mwynfawr
Adwr the Coward
Adwythig the Cruel
Croesgadwr the Crusader
Cyfrwys the Cunning (the Subtle, the Wily, etc.)
Uradawc the Cunning - Aeddan Uradawc
Farfdrwch Cut-beard - Gwrin Farfdrwch
Dywyll the Dark - Ynys Dywyll
Ddu the Dark - Gwarin Dhu, the Black Lord, Amwn Ddu
Mwyngu Dear One - Mwyngu Sant (St. Mungo)
Tudglyd Defender of the People - Tudwal Tudglyd
Waredwr the Deliverer - Custennin Waredwr [Constantine I Magnus]
Addolgar the Devout
Cadwallen Dissolver of Battles
Draig the Dragon
Bendraig Dragonhead - Wthyr Bendragon
Caron the Kind-hearted (lit., the Loving)
Frenin the King - Einion Frenin
Draigladdiad Dragonslayer
Glafoeriog the Drooler - Peibio Glafoeriog
Hen the Elder
Fawr the Elder
Emyr Emperor - Emyr Llydaw
Ymerawdwr Emperor
Galovyd Enemy-subduer - Greidiawl Galovyd
Saesneg the English
Sais the English - Bleddyn Sais ap Cynfyn
Gwyn the Fair (ie, not dark) - Seiriol Sant Gwyn
Ceinfarfog Fair Beard - Cynyr Ceinfarfog
Garwen Fairleg - Garwen ferch Henin
Bras the Fat
Fflamddwyn Firebrand - Theodoric Fflamddwyn
Aillt the Foreigner - Bledrig Aillt
Fflam the Flame [?] - Ffleudur Fflam
Llyngesog the Fleet-owner Gereint Llyngesog
Gwodryd of Flowing Verse - Aneirin Gwodryd
Bregus the Frail
Frych the Freckled (also, the Spotted) - Merfyn Frych
Brycheiniog the Many Freckled - Brychan Brycheiniog
Hael the Generous - Rhydderch Hael
Gwaraidd the Gentle (also the Civilized)
Gawr the Giant - Gogfran Gawr, Rhita Gawr
Ddyrnllwg Gleaming-hilt - Cadell Ddyrnllwg
Duwiolfrydig the God-fearing
Duwiol the Godly
Eurfon Gold Breast - Tegau Eurfon
Gwallt Euryn Golden-hair - Gwri Gwallt Euryn
Benaur Goldenhead - Emrys Benaur
Dda the Good - Hywel Dda
Prudd the Grave
Llwyd the Gray
Farf Fehinog Greasy-beard - Hywel i Farf Fehinog
Mawr the Great - Rhodri Mawr, Llywelyn Fawr
Gosgorddfawr of the Great Army - Eliffer Gosgorddfawr
Mawr Marchou the Great Knight - Riwal Mawr Marchou
Datharweniddawg of Great Manliness - Gweyr Datharweniddawg
Ryfedd Mawr of Great Wealth - Rhun Ryfedd Mawr
Blysig the Greedy
Darian las Green-shield - Bryttys Darian las
Gwalltafwyn Hair like Rain - Gwalchmai Gwalltafwyn
Ledlwm the Half-naked - Gorwst Ledlwm
Llediaith Half-Speech - Llyr Llediaith
Llaw Ddifro the Hand-severer (ie, the Assassin) - Llofan Llaw Ddifro
Kynn-Crog Hang-Cock (ie, Cock-hanger) [?] - Neol Kynn-Crog
Myrddin the Hawk - Myrddin Wyllt
Trwm the Heavy - Gwydyr Trwm
yr Edling the Heir
Gwron the Hero - Ysfael Gwron
Hirdref Hightown - Cynfyn Hirdref
Gryg the Hoarse - Rhys Gryg
March the Horse - March ap Meirchion [King Mark of the Tristain saga; literally "Horse, son of Horses"]
y Pedolau of the Horseshoes - Hywel y Pedolau
Lwyddog of the Hosts - Elen Lwyddog, Yrp Lwyddog
Lluagor Host-splitter - [horse name]
Gwn the Hound - Maelgwn Gwynedd
Benissel the Humble (lit., the Low-head) - Sawyl Benissel
Crwm the Hunchback - Maelog Crwm
Yrth the Impetuous - Einion Yrth
Awenyd the Inspired - Aneirin Awenyd
Wyddel the Irishman - Matholwch Wyddel, Llenlleawg Gwyddel
yr Eidalwr the Italian
Tywysog King (to Normans, prince; also, count)
Tywysog holl Gymru King of All Wales - Hywel Dda Tywysog holl Gymru
Farchog the Knight - Illtud Sant Farchog
Marchou the Knight - Riwal Mawr Marchou
Lak of the Lake - Lanslod Lak
Wledig of the Land (ie, founder) - Macsen Wledig, Cunedda Wledig, Ceretic Gwledig
Briadwr Landholder - Gwrast Briadwr
Gladrog the Leper - Pebiaw Gladrog
Gwahanglwyfus the Leper (mod.)
Anwir the Liar
Lawhir Long-arm (also Longhand) - Cadwallawn Lawhir
Genhir Long-chin - Chynan Genhir
Wallt Hir Longhair - Gloyw Wallt Hir
Gwdwc Hir Longneck - [horse name]
Garanhir Longshanks - Gwyddno Garanhir
Paladr Hir Longspear - Peredur Paladr Hir
Pendeuc Lord of ~ - Pwyll Pendeuc Dyfed
Pen Lord of ~ (lit., head of the ~) - Pwyll pen Annwfn [Paul, King of the Dead]
Clywd the Loud
Rhewydd the Lustful
Chwantus the Lustful
Vesanus the Mad - Merchwyn Vesanus
Godidog the Magnificent - Coel Godidog
Gwych the Magnificent - Elen Gwych
Gadarn the Mighty - Dyrfel Sant Gadarn
Gafaelfawr Mighty-grip (ie, of the Firm Handshake) - Glewlwyd Gavaelvawr
Forddwyttwll Mighty-thigh - Echel # Achilles
Gwyl the Modest - Gwyl ferch Gendawd
Arvel the Mourned (the Bemoaned, the Wept over, etc.)
Gogledd of the North - Gleissiar Gogledd
Bryneich the Northumbrian
Amynedd the Patient
Nissyen Peace-lover - Nissyen
Geimiad the Pilgrim - Elian Geimiad
Ailither the Pilgrim - Madog Ailither
Post the Pillar (also, the Pillar of the ~) - Pabo Post Prydain Sant
Crefyddal the Pious
Dwyn the Pleasant (the Friendly, the Agreeable, etc.)
y Bardd the Poet
Del the Pretty
Mael Prince - Maelgwn [lit., Prince of Hounds]
Hen the Old (also, Senior or the Elder) - Llywarch Hen
Cafell Oracle (also, Prophetess) - An Cafell
Centygern Overlord - Centygern Sant (=St. Mungo)
Prince, see King
Pef the Radiant - Rhufawn Pef
Bran the Raven - Bran Vendigaid
Goch the Red - Dafydd Goch, Owain Goch
Dremrydd Redfaced (or -eyed) - Rhain Dremrydd
Lawgoch Red-hand [?] - Owain Lawgoch
Glodrydd Renowned - Cyngen Glodrydd, Elystan Glodrydd
Reith the Righteous - Iaun Reith
Iwrch Roebuck [?] - Idwal Iwrch
Alt the Rock
y Prydydd the Rhymer - Golydan y Prydydd
Garwlwyd Rough gray [?] - Gwrgi Garwlwyd
Oer the Sad (also the Dismal) - Cynfarch Oer
Sant Saint - Tysilio Sant, Dewi Sant, Asa Sant, Elvis Sant
Sante Ste. - An Sante
yr Albonwr the Scot
y Dryw the Seer
Tarian the Shield
Briefbras Shortarm - Caradog Briefbras
Llaw Eraint Silverhand - Lludd Llaw Eraint
Syr Sir - Syr Hywel y Pedolau
Cymen the Skilful
Llaw Gyffes Skilfulhand - Lleu Llaw Gyffes
Bach the Small - Gwion Bach
Fychan the Small - Hywel Fychan
Call the Smart - Call [dog]
Cuall the Smarter - Cuall [dog]
Cafall the Smartest - Cafall [dog]
Corryn the Spider - Corryn
Baladrddellt Splintered-spear - Pedrog Baladrddellt [also given as Petrock ]
rac Dehau for the South - Gereint rac Dehau
Cadarn the Steadfast
Areueu Dur Steel Arms - Peredur Arueu Dur
Maer the Steward
Bwr the Stout - Dunod Bwr
Pybyr the Stout - Dunawd Pybyr
Llydanwyn Stout and handsome 0 - Elidyr Llydanwyn
Cadarn the Strong
Cryf the Strong
Trahern Strong as Iron
Freichfras Strongarm - Caradawg Freichfras
Vreichvras Strongarm - Caradawg Vreichvras
Hunanladdiad the Suicide [lit., the self-slayer]
Hir the Tall - Maelgwn Hir
Felyn the Tanned - Cybi Felyn Sant
Bendew Thick-head (or Strong-skulled) - Ednywain Bendew
Tenau the Thin - Gwrtheyrn Tenau [Vortigern]
Gul the Thin (the Lean) - Meirchion Gul
Bradwr the Traitor - Bradwr
Teirbron the Triple-Breasted - Gwen Teirbron
Ysgythrog of the Tusks - Brochfael Ysgythrog
Bren the Ugly - Llywelyn Bren
Enwir the Unjust - Dafydd Enwir ab Owain Gwynedd
Ddiriaid the Unlucky in War - Brwydr Ddiriaid
Wyry the Virgin - Cain Sante Wyry
Oge Warlord of the ~ - Eudaf oge Gewisse
Cadman the Warrior
Dyfyrwr the Waterboy - Dewi Sant Dyfyrwr
Wan the Weak - Owain Wan
Mwynfawr the Wealthy - Morgant Mwynfawr
Berthog the Wealthy - Berthog
Gymraeg the Welsh
Deifnyawc the Well-Endowed (ie, entitled to rule) - Gwalchmai Deifnyawc
Cadyryeith the Well-Spoken
Gwyn the White - Cain Wen
Fyrgan White-ankles - Alain Fyrgan
Branwen Whitebreast - Branwen
Lawgwyn Whitehand - Iseult Lawgwyn
Olwen of the White footprint (or track) - Olwen merch Ysbaddaden
Garwyn Whiteshanks - Cynan Garwyn
Ysgwyt wyn White-shield - Eneas [Aeneas]
Ddantgwyn White-tooth - Owain Ddantgwyn
Gwraigfrydig the Wife-fearing
Wyllt the Wild - Myrddin Wyllt
Benasgell Wing-headed [?] - Arddyn Benasgell
Doeth the Wise - Siblo Doeth, Cadog Ddoeth, Selyf Doeth [King Solomon]
Gwrach the Witch (also the Hag) - Tymam ys Gwrach
Blaidd the Wolf - Rhirid Flaidd
Bleddyn Little Wolf (ie, Wolfy) - Bleddyn ap Cynfyn
Gwaeth the Worse - Gwaeth ferch Cyfwlch
Gwaethaf the Worst - Gwaethaf Oll ferch Sefwlch
Gwron the Worthy (also, the Hero) - Gwgon Gwron
Evrawg the Yorkish
Iau the Younger (also, Junior) - Custennin Iau
Fychan the Younger - Llywelyn Fychan
Fab the Younger - Deiniol Fab

People whose epithets I haven't found Welsh translations for:

? of the Blows - Cadyal
? of the Boasting - Moel
? Broom-hair - Rhiwallawn
? the Dwarf - Rudlwn
? the Good Companion - Gwyn
? the Good Distributor - Gwyn
? Greatknee - Eda
? the Pagan-woman - Ronnwen
? Redsword - Gwgawn
? the Sprightly - Ednyfedawg
? womb-burden - babies

People whose epithets I haven't found English translations for:

Afan Ferddig
Alan Fyrgan
Alltu Redegog
Anarawd Walltgrwn #~ Hair
Anoeth Veidawg
Arnuawn Penyr #the Chief?
Aunwas Adeiniawc
Beuno Gasulsych
Cadwgan Tredylig
Cast Rhvmi
Cengan Peilliawg
Chatrawd Chalchuynyd #placename?
Cleddyf Difwlch
Clydno Eiddyn #placename
Corvil Bervach
Cynan Dindaethwy #placename
Cyndeyrn Garthwys #placename
Cynfawr/Cynfarch Cat Caduc/Hadgadduc
Cynwal Canhwch/Ganbwch
Dafydd Penmachno #placename
Dallwyr Dallben/Dallpenn #~ head
Drustwrn Hayarn
Dwnn Diessic Unbenn # ~ head
Dwywg Lyth ap Tegog
Dyffryn Elwy
Dyvynwal Moel #the Bald?
Eiddon Vawr Vrydic #Great ~
Elidyr Gyvarwydd
Ely Amyr
Enfael/Envael Adran Adrann
Esgeir Gulhwch Govvnkawn
Gallcoyt Govynynat
Ganastyr Kanllaw #~ hand
Gilla Coes Hydd
Gleddyf Kvfwlch
Glwyddyn Saer
Goronwy/Gronw Pefr/Pebyr
Gors Gant-Ewin
Gorust Priodawr
Greidawl Galldonvd
Grudiwyn Gorr
Gruffudd Leiaf
Gwaetcym Herwuden
Gweir Datharweniddawg/Datharwenniddawg
Gweir Gwrhyd Ennwir
Gwelwgan Gohoewgein
Gwenllian Deg
Gwrhyr Gwalstawt
Gwrhyr Gwarthegvras #~ Arms?
Gwrhyr Gwastawd leithoedd
Gwrvan Gwallt Avwyn #~ Hair
Gwyddyl Ffichti
Gwynn Godyvron
Gwythawc Gwyr
Heilyn Ystailforch
Heinin Vardd
Henwas Adeinawg
Hettwn Talarvant
Hyveidd Unllenn
Kilydd Ganhastyr
Kimin Cov
Kynyr Keinvarvawc
Llanfair Dalhaiarn
Llawnrodded Varvawc #~ Beard?
Llevoed Wyneglawr
Llwch/Loch Llawwynnyawg/Llawwynnyawc #~ Hand
Lluber Beuthach
Llwydawg Gofynnyad
Llyr Lluydauc
Llyr Marini #of the sea?
Llysgadrudd Emys
Llywarch Holwbrwch
Mederei Badellfawr #great in battle?
Meilir 'Erys Gwyr Gorsedd' Ap Tydy
Meirchion Fawdfilwr
Moren Mynawc
Mynach Naoman
Nant Aled
Nav Gyssevin
Nodawl Varyf Twrch
Osla Gyllellvawr
Panawr Pen Bagad #Head ~
Peredyr 'Teirnoe' ap Meilir
Reidwn Arwy
Rheu Rhwyd Dyrys
Rhun Rhudwern
Ruawn y Pefyr #the Radiant?
Seithyn Saidi
Sgilti Yscawndroed
Tegyr Talgellawg
Teirnon/Teyrnon Twryf Bliant/Twrf Fliant
Tinwaed Faglaw #Baghand? Younghand?
Twrch Trwyth (Great boar of the welsh)
Uchtryd Ardywad Kad
Uchtryd Varyt Draws
Urgenei Collwyn #White ~
Yspaddaden Penkawr #Chief of the Giants? Gianthead?
Ysperyr Hwingath

Further research on naming, from a girl from the SCA: Heather Rose Jones
One guide to mutation
Welsh-English dictionary
The definitive Welsh-English dictionary: UWales's
List of Welsh Saints, many rulers and only two canonized
Welsh biographies
Welsh genealogies

LlywelynII · Nov 11, 2006

This is also cool: The Celtic Literature Collection.

Hope that all helps!
j.

Drachenfire · Nov 13, 2006

Wow! Llywellyn! This information is terriffic! It might take me a few days to add/respond to it all.

1) I was familure with the mutations of Welsh volwels.
2) edit: one moment
3)Thanks for everything. My next few updates will offer a more vanilla version for incorporation with the the 1.06, and then I shall also do a more Welsh expansion listing the nick names you mention.
4) another Welsh law I wanted to add was when a bastard was "recognized" this would give the wife the oppertunity to divorce her husband. According to the Welsh laws, if a mistress was kept and it was discovered, by the thrid time the wife could divorce her husband lawfully. I wanted to duplicate this with having three bastards, the wife would then divorce the husband, with the husband losing prestigue and vassles losing loaylty. What do you think on this aspect?

LlywelynII · Nov 13, 2006

Drachenfire said:
Wow! Llywellyn! This information is terriffic!

You're the one doing all the heavy lifting. Thank you.

My next few updates will offer a more vanilla version for incorporation with the the 1.06, and then I shall also do a more Welsh expansion listing the nick names you mention.

Well, I wouldn't go modding the Welsh name list so that every third Daffydd is Daffydd Cloff or Daffydd yr Momma; but I think it's more correct and more accessible to use the epithets for characters at scenario start. Example: He's never Owain ap Gruffydd - it's always Owain Gwynedd; Rhys Dinefwr is always Lord Rhys or the Welsh equivalent; when I first dled your mod, I couldn't figure out who Llywelyn the Great was - if there's only one Llywelyn Fawr, it's pretty obvious.

I realized after I posted you can give translations in the code:

Code:

                          name = "Llywelyn Fawr" # the Great

I think that's the way to go.

There's nothing sacred about the pdox vanilla name structure and as you found out, some of their research was simply wrong. In case you forget, I've got one word for you: Anglesey.

4) another Welsh law I wanted to add was when a bastard was "recognized" this would give the wife the oppertunity to divorce her husband. According to the Welsh laws, if a mistress was kept and it was discovered, by the thrid time the wife could divorce her husband lawfully. I wanted to duplicate this with having three bastards, the wife would then divorce the husband, with the husband losing prestigue and vassles losing loaylty. What do you think on this aspect?

It's cool.

It's just a. you'd have to only count legitimized bastards, which the game can't track,

and b. there is no divorce. You'd have to kill the wife.

I'd say we just opt for un-Welshly submissive mates until ck2.

j.

LlywelynII · Nov 13, 2006

Also, is it Dafydd or Dewi?

Apparently St. David is Dewi Sant, but the modern name is Dafydd, maybe?

How's that work? what was Lly's uncle named?

j.

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