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Thread: The Prisoners of Silence - NSDAP 1936-1991 (History and background)

  1. #181
    Field Marshal Faeelin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karelian
    Hi, and thanks for commenting. It is indeed true that Britain and (southern) Italy are a poor placement for OTL Western European markets, and thus the US economic interests are increasingly focused towards developing Asian economies. This has several implications, that will have to be covered with an additional update eventually.
    Heh. I'm guessing you never read India Unbound?
    I am therefore officially rooting for a Franco-German strike on Russia, prompting the Soviets to strike back with their hitherto secret nukes. This will serve as a salutary lesson to all involved and leave everyone suitably chastened.-El Pip

    Great War: The American Front: Can the United States defeat Britain and its Confederate Lackeys? Or will the CSA defend its freedom against the Yankee Menace?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Faeelin
    Heh. I'm guessing you never read India Unbound?
    Iīm aware of Nehru and his economic ideas
    Note that I never specifically mentioned India in that reply.
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  3. #183
    Second Lieutenant BwenGun's Avatar
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    It would be interesting indeed to see where India might have been if it had the benefits of investment in its industry on a similar scale to the Marshal Plan and a more Market Liberal political stance. Would certainly pose a considerable threat to the damnable Nazis, after all facing off against a nation whose population is twice that of all Europe Combined is fairly daunting, facing off against one with half a century of steady industrial and economic growth and weapons tech comparable to your own would be just downright scary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BwenGun
    It would be interesting indeed to see where India might have been if it had the benefits of investment in its industry on a similar scale to the Marshal Plan and a more Market Liberal political stance. Would certainly pose a considerable threat to the damnable Nazis, after all facing off against a nation whose population is twice that of all Europe Combined is fairly daunting, facing off against one with half a century of steady industrial and economic growth and weapons tech comparable to your own would be just downright scary.
    Thereīs indeed great potential, and therefore the West is certainly not the only force courting India. One can only think what kind of legacy the volunteers of Legion Freies Indien would have had in independent India in TTL, what would the Soviets have to offer to developing India and so on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karelian
    Thereīs indeed great potential, and therefore the West is certainly not the only force courting India. One can only think what kind of legacy the volunteers of Legion Freies Indien would have had in independent India in TTL, what would the Soviets have to offer to developing India and so on.
    Indeed, though I'd say the impact of the Legion Freies Indien would be fairly limited in terms of courting India, after all they never actually got a chance to fight for India's freedom, and neither did the Nazi's for that matter. And at the same time Nazi Ideology was, for the most part, rejected by the Legions creator Subhas Chandra Bose.

    Which highlights the other major problem German influence would have, their policies with regards to the fair treatment of other races is... well not even allowed to be discussed on these forums, and thus any Indian Government would be fairly wary of getting too close.

    On the other hand you could posit that India might not want to become involved in any alliance with the British. Though conversely you could argue that they'd jump at the chance to prove themselves as equals with Britain on the international stage by joining such an alliance, or aligning themselves with it.

    Also from a purely real politik perspective you could argue they'd go to the people with the largest purse first, political reasons second, and ideological reasons third. Though the ideological one would be dependent on how things developed after independence in TTL as opposed to the OTL. Though if it goes down a similar path of the OTL then I could see India siding nominally with the States for Ideological and Economic reasons, with the Reich covertly equipping training Pakistan - not publicly because doing so could well force India's hands when it comes to formally siding with the US.

    The interesting spark points in TTL could well be Bangladesh and Pakistan, particularly if both are supplied by one or two of the superpowers. A communist supported guerilla war in Bangladesh perhaps? Kashmir with the Pakistanis driving their new tanks which look surprisingly like a German model? India could be very interesting, and very worrying for people who would rather the cold war doesn't turn hot.

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    really nice work mate,
    but i have some question concerning croatia...

    how likely is it for italy to still occupy the east adriatic coastline, aka croatian coastline (dalmatia)? cuz they surrendered in 1943?
    (even in our timeline NDH goverment declared all treatys with italy as revoked! and reunited our coastline with the independent state of croatia...)

    what kind of relationship has croatia with the two italys?
    friendly or antagonistic?

    what happend with the red scum aka partisans and the butcher tito?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ahura
    what happend with the red scum aka partisans and the butcher tito?
    I'm sure I remember reading about him being captured and executed in 1945 but I can't recall the update.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HKslan
    I'm sure I remember reading about him being captured and executed in 1945 but I can't recall the update.
    would be nice to see some details...

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    Quote Originally Posted by BwenGun
    On the other hand you could posit that India might not want to become involved in any alliance with the British. Though conversely you could argue that they'd jump at the chance to prove themselves as equals with Britain on the international stage by joining such an alliance, or aligning themselves with it.
    Mrm. There was a fair amount of pro-Americanism in India, right after independence; I imagine that in this world this only continues. Certainly, planned economics may take a bit of a blow, as the extent of "Soviet horrors" come out.

    Anyway, it'd be a bit amusing, given your hints, if wesaw a more prosperous Inodnesia in this world.

    A communist supported guerilla war in Bangladesh perhaps? Kashmir with the Pakistanis driving their new tanks which look surprisingly like a German model? India could be very interesting, and very worrying for people who would rather the cold war doesn't turn hot.
    Mmm. The USSR is obviously the least powerful of the three superpowers; I imagine their main goals would be in East Asia, and in Eastern Europe.
    I am therefore officially rooting for a Franco-German strike on Russia, prompting the Soviets to strike back with their hitherto secret nukes. This will serve as a salutary lesson to all involved and leave everyone suitably chastened.-El Pip

    Great War: The American Front: Can the United States defeat Britain and its Confederate Lackeys? Or will the CSA defend its freedom against the Yankee Menace?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ahura
    really nice work mate,
    but i have some question concerning croatia...

    how likely is it for italy to still occupy the east adriatic coastline, aka croatian coastline (dalmatia)? cuz they surrendered in 1943?
    (even in our timeline NDH goverment declared all treatys with italy as revoked! and reunited our coastline with the independent state of croatia...)

    what kind of relationship has croatia with the two italys?
    friendly or antagonistic?

    what happend with the red scum aka partisans and the butcher tito?
    Hi, and thanks for your comments.
    The Dalmatian question is one of the many "frozen" conflicts of New Europe. In TTL the Soviet Union signed a separate armistice at 22nd of June 1943, well before the Badoglio government announced an armistice with the Allies in September. Since the German chances (and interests) of helping their allies were thus much stronger than in OLT, the RSI regime ultimately became stronger than historically. And since Dalmatia had been officially annexed by Italy (20th of May 1941), the Germans favoured the RSI in this border dispute much to the dismay of Croatian nationalists.

    Currently the provincial capitol is called Zara. Local Croats have violently resisted the RSI ambitions to "Italianize" the region and Hajduk, the famous football club of Spoleto still doesnīt participate to the Italian League. During the Italian Civil War in 1945 many Italian fascists fled from Southern Italy and took refuge from the region. After WWII the question of ownership of Dalmatian coast and especially itīs islands has been a constant sore wound in the relations between RSI and Croatia. The relations towards the pro-Western Republic of Italy arenīt too warm either, allthough the latter has renounced any claims to Dalmatian coast.

    The fate of Tito and the New Order in the Balkans:
    http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...1&postcount=41

    Timeline:
    http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...4&postcount=40
    Blue Max Alternate History Mod for Hearts of Iron 3

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    Quote Originally Posted by BwenGun
    The interesting spark points in TTL could well be Bangladesh and Pakistan, particularly if both are supplied by one or two of the superpowers. A communist supported guerilla war in Bangladesh perhaps? Kashmir with the Pakistanis driving their new tanks which look surprisingly like a German model? India could be very interesting, and very worrying for people who would rather the cold war doesn't turn hot.
    India has huge potential, but also troublesome neighbours as you correctly pointed out. German arms trade to Pakistan is an accurate prediction, but the guerrillas of Bangladesh are much more likely to receive their inspiration and support from PRC rather than USSR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Faeelin
    Mrm. There was a fair amount of pro-Americanism in India, right after independence; I imagine that in this world this only continues. Certainly, planned economics may take a bit of a blow, as the extent of "Soviet horrors" come out.

    Anyway, it'd be a bit amusing, given your hints, if wesaw a more prosperous Indonesia in this world.
    Iīd assume that in this ideologically divided world India will not be viewed as an overpopulated and poor Third World country, but as an large English-speaking democracy and a huge potential market. And MacArthur always showed great interest towards Asia. This spells good for Indonesia as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Faeelin
    Mmm. The USSR is obviously the least powerful of the three superpowers; I imagine their main goals would be in East Asia, and in Eastern Europe.
    Keeping Eastern Europe in turmoil and thwarting all fascist attempts of gaining (or retaining) influence in Africa are more likely goals, since China focuses her expanding influence to East Asia and the Soviets are wise enough to avoid such confrontation with Maoists whenever possible. By the way, with border disputes in Far East solved in favour of China and Stalinism being still officially supported in USSR, would there necessarily be a major Sino-Soviet split?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karelian
    By the way, with border disputes in Far East solved in favour of China and Stalinism being still officially supported in USSR, would there necessarily be a major Sino-Soviet split?
    Not likely since Mao was a great admirer of Stalin! But I think with Oncle Joe losing the war and a great part of European Russia, Maos China would strive to be the leader of Communisms! They have, like what, tens times more people than the Soviets, a more or less centralized and with the Han chinese making the majority of the population, a more effective goverment.

    And with Mao gaining so much more prestige (he should be the leader of Global Communism by now or at least the greatest Icon of it!) and with Stalin being the man who lost to the Fascists, there could be some resentments withhin the Soviet hierachy against Maos popularity and the dependence on Red China.

    There are some intresting points here though that can lead to the Split. Chinese claims to Soviet Far East (now the Soviets are not to strong to resist them, as in OTL)! And with all the ramifications of Stalins crimes brought to light there can be some intresting conflicts with the PRC up ahead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karelian
    Hi, and thanks for your comments.
    The Dalmatian question is one of the many "frozen" conflicts of New Europe. In TTL the Soviet Union signed a separate armistice at 22nd of June 1943, well before the Badoglio government announced an armistice with the Allies in September. Since the German chances (and interests) of helping their allies were thus much stronger than in OLT, the RSI regime ultimately became stronger than historically. And since Dalmatia had been officially annexed by Italy (20th of May 1941), the Germans favoured the RSI in this border dispute much to the dismay of Croatian nationalists.

    Currently the provincial capitol is called Zara. Local Croats have violently resisted the RSI ambitions to "Italianize" the region and Hajduk, the famous football club of Spoleto still doesnīt participate to the Italian League. During the Italian Civil War in 1945 many Italian fascists fled from Southern Italy and took refuge from the region. After WWII the question of ownership of Dalmatian coast and especially itīs islands has been a constant sore wound in the relations between RSI and Croatia. The relations towards the pro-Western Republic of Italy arenīt too warm either, allthough the latter has renounced any claims to Dalmatian coast.

    The fate of Tito and the New Order in the Balkans:
    http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...1&postcount=41

    Timeline:
    http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...4&postcount=40
    interesting...

    what do you think about the possibility of a war between croatia and rsi? something like final solution for this question?

    is the assassination of ante pavelic a alegory on the assault commited by punisa racic on croatian politicans like stjepan radic etc in the parliament of the kingdom shs 1928?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ahura
    interesting...

    what do you think about the possibility of a war between croatia and rsi? something like final solution for this question?

    is the assassination of ante pavelic a alegory on the assault commited by punisa racic on croatian politicans like stjepan radic etc in the parliament of the kingdom shs 1928?
    Leadership of the Reich wonīt allow any disturbances in the European continent and RSI is too strong opponent for Croatia. Dalmatia is simply part of German divide et impera-politics that have so far prevented the smaller nations of New Europe from forming an effective counterbalance against German hegemony - observe the borders of France and Italy and Hungary and Romania for other examples of such border changes.

    As for the assasination: arenīt you aware how Pavelić really died??
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karelian
    Leadership of the Reich wonīt allow any disturbances in the European continent and RSI is too strong opponent for Croatia. Dalmatia is simply part of German divide et impera-politics that have so far prevented the smaller nations of New Europe from forming an effective counterbalance against German hegemony - observe the borders of France and Italy and Hungary and Romania for other examples of such border changes.

    As for the assasination: arenīt you aware how Pavelić really died??
    hmm if we look at the history italian were never good soldiers, not in the
    I.ww, and II.ww they sucked even more...

    hmm so in your timeline pavelic didnt declared all treatys with italy as invalid 1943. when italy capitulated? (after the cap. allmost all italian soldiers retreted)
    if not, why? doesnt make sense (logical) imo...

    if we compare the situation from 1991.-1995. when we fought against the peoples army of jugoslavia (3rd or 4th army in europe at that time) and chetinik paramilitary forces, and see that we defeated them, even we had at the beginning not even a military force, and to top this croatian was under a un weapons embargo... this is about fighting morale, and the will for victory...

    plus, if we keep in mind that around 1945. the HOS (croatian armed forces) had about 200,000 soldiers (croatian and british sources)...

    then look at your ftl, with a rsi or "disabled italy", its doesnt seems logical that "we" couldnt beat them...(imo the war would take in the worst case 5-10 years max)... but the final victory is unquastionable...

    concerning the assination attempt, it failed... pavelic died peacefuly in madrid 1959... so i havent connected this two events...

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    I think what Karelian has said is very logical! Germany is the most powerfull force in Europe and has domination over most of it! So with their "divide and rule" policy it should make their rule much more easier.

    Also I think it can be some sort of referee or declare itself as a peacekeeper among bickering minor states! So with this policy it can thus show itself as a benelovent force and keep its neighbors from teaming up against it.

    Croatia could defeat the RSI, but then Germany is the benefactor of the RSI, so it is unlikely that Croatia will do anything...not until Germany or Nazi Europe as a whole suffers some sort of Glasnost!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ahura
    hmm if we look at the history italian were never good soldiers, not in the
    I.ww, and II.ww they sucked even more...

    hmm so in your timeline pavelic didnt declared all treatys with italy as invalid 1943. when italy capitulated? (after the cap. allmost all italian soldiers retreted)
    if not, why? doesnt make sense (logical) imo...
    When I look at Italyīs military history, I conclude that the main reasons for the failures of the Italian Army were poor leadership combined with obsolete weaponry and organization. Still they developed the first assault rifle (Cei-Rigotti), one of the first submachine guns (Villar-Perosa), and by 1917 they had recovered from their earlier devastating losses and had developed their own stormtroops, the "Arditi" of Reparti d'Assalto. In WWII Il Duce and the dumbass Italian generals did their best to make the Italian Army look bad, but they still had some excellent divisions and special forces.

    And Pavelic wasnīt in a position to annex Dalmatian coast simply because Germans didinīt allow it, simple as that. Why would the Germans have wanted to weaken their most important ally in such a critical moment to please a minor Axis puppet state? Especially when new troops became available from the former Ostfront, further diminishing the importance of Croatia in the Balkans. And with Soviet Union out from the war there were more Italian soldiers willing to fight on in 1943 since the war didinīt seem lost as in OTL.

    Quote Originally Posted by ahura
    if we compare the situation from 1991.-1995. when we fought against the peoples army of jugoslavia (3rd or 4th army in europe at that time) and chetinik paramilitary forces, and see that we defeated them, even we had at the beginning not even a military force, and to top this croatian was under a un weapons embargo... this is about fighting morale, and the will for victory...
    Why should we compare this hypothetical situation to a completely different real-life war? Especially a one where VJ initially basically did what it wanted by ruthlessly occupying large parts of Croatia (namely Krajina) despite fierce Croat resistance. Then Vance Plan turned the conflict into low-scale trench warfare with uneasy truces and occasional clashes while the Croatian forces were greatly reinforced and expanded as the country managed to aquire foreign weapons and receive help from American contractors (MPRI) with the approval of Clinton Administration. When August 1995 came, Milošević had allready abanoned RSK to itīs fate and the VSK had only about 55,000 soldiers available to cover a front of some 700km, so the success of Oluja was quite expected.

    Quote Originally Posted by ahura
    plus, if we keep in mind that around 1945. the HOS (croatian armed forces) had about 200,000 soldiers (croatian and british sources)...
    1945 is two years later than 1943. And Croatia was still too isolated and dependant from German help and goodwill to openly challenge them.

    Quote Originally Posted by ahura
    then look at your ftl, with a rsi or "disabled italy", its doesnt seems logical that "we" couldnt beat them...(imo the war would take in the worst case 5-10 years max)... but the final victory is unquastionable...
    RSI still has way larger population and bigger GNP. Just compare the situation to Cold War-era Soviet sphere of influence in TTL. Sure, the Hungarians didinīt like Romanian ownership of Transylvania one bit - but were not in a position to do anything about it. Same applies here, the Reich has shown that itīs willing to interfere to any local crisis to ensure "stability and order among the free European family of nations."

    Quote Originally Posted by ahura
    concerning the assination attempt, it failed... pavelic died peacefuly in madrid 1959... so i havent connected this two events...
    When Pavelic died, he still had the assasinīs bullet lodged in his spine.
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    Overview of the Middle-Eastern War, Part XII: The Lebanese Front

    The twilight of the Lebanese Baathism arrived along the US troops approaching Beirut from the south, along the Lebanese coast.

    "And Joshua charged the people with an oath at that time, saying: 'Cursed be the man before the Lord that riseth up and buildeth this city, even Jericho; with the loss of his first-born shall he lay the foundation thereof, and with the loss of his youngest son shall he set up the gates of it." Joshua 6:26

    A House of Cards

    Two years after the German-sponsored SS Arab Legion had staged a coup in the country, the Political situation in Lebanon was more volatile than ever before. Two years ago German-sponsored Baathist militias and the SS-trained volunteer units had managed to seize power within the country, but back then few had realized how far-flung effects this coup would ultimately have. Now, two years after August 1951, the same internal instability that had originally enabled the current leadership of Lebanon to seize power was working against them.

    While the new Baathist junta had immediately dissolved other political parties and arrested several opposition leaders, the new regime had simultaneously sought to maintain at least some popular support by making public statements about their aims to respect the National Pact by arranging new elections "as soon as the international situation in Middle-East permits."

    Yet this propaganda clearly conflicted with the official Pan-Arabic dogmas of Lebanese Baathists, and because of this and their difficult historical relations with local Muslims the pro-Western Maronite Christian population had remained wary and outright hostile towards their new rulers.

    Meanwhile the National Pact that had divided the power according to the 1932 census was no longer correctly representing the internal balance of power within the various groups. Muslim population growth and Christian emigration (that only intensified after the beginning of the Middle-Eastern War) had eroded the marginal population edge that Christians had originally held in 1932.

    Dissatisfaction with their current government structure made the Maronites and other Christian groups a potential source of instability within the country, but they certainly werenīt the only part of the Lebanese population opposed to the current situation. The small Druze community felt equally oppressed under the Baathist martial law, and supporters of the Western-minded political parties had begun to organize opposition right after the coup.

    There were other forces in opposition as well. After their failed coup attempt in August 1951 the Syrian Social Nationalist Party, SSNP, had been the prime target for Baathist oppression and persecution. Yet the movement still retained marginal, but well motivated cadre of supporters who were actively resisting the current government. The outlawed Lebanese Communist Party formed another marginal resistance force. During the previous two years the opposition had been too divided to offer much challenge to the Baathist security authorities, but things were quickly changing in autumn 1953.

    The situation in Lebanon had remained relatively calm as long as the front lines of the Middle-Eastern War were outside the countryīs borders. The dissatisfied population had lacked weapons for successful guerrilla warfare, and the lack of trust between different opposition groups had so far prevented effective cooperation between the different factions. But under the surface the situation was already anything but calm.

    When Lebanon fell to the Baathist coup in 1951, the Western intelligence agencies had been quick to react to the early success of Abwehr and CIG. While CIA had been initially woefully unprepared for itīs new role as an opposition organizer in Lebanon, by 1953 it had established an extensive networks of contacts within the various opposition groups in Lebanon. Arms had been smuggled in during the war in Palestine, and new shipments continued to arrive through the officially neutral zone occupied by the Free French forces around the city of Batroun.



    Hitting the beaches - Operation Dauntless begins

    When MacArthur Administration decided to solve the Middle-Eastern War through military victory in the field, the US foreign policy and intelligence experts soon correctly identified the bitterly divided Lebanon as the weakest of the three Baathist regimes of Middle-East. General Ridgway approved the plan to strike against the country, and after his successful feint attack to Golan Heights had drawn the enemy reserves (and especially all available planes of the Syrian Air Force) away, he reported to his superiors that everything was ready for Operation Dauntless - an ambitious plan that aimed to knock Lebanon out from the war.


    Dauntless was a twofold operation - it aimed to quickly capture the Lebanese capitol and initiate a popular uprising against the Lebanese Baathists. The main target for the operation was the ancient Lebanese capitol city.


    After the local Haganah forces and US National Guard reservists had relieved the 2nd Marine Division from the occupation duties in Palestine, the division had been stationed to the Sixth Fleet, reinforced with the recently established 2d Provisional Marine Force [composed of two Marine BLTs: the 1st Battalion (Reinforced), 8th Marines (1/8) and the 2d Battalion (Reinforced), 2d Marines (2/2.)] While assembling at sea, this force prepared for itīs new mission - the first large-scale amphibious operation since World War II. The reinforced division was tasked to establish a secure beachhead, defeat possible counterattacks and then strike southwards to encircle the capitol by linking up with the US Army forces that were currently advancing northwards along the Lebanese coast.

    The military part of Dauntless begun with a surprise attack on the early morning of 24nd of September, when the invasion force composed from the US Sixth Fleet, British Mediterranean Fleet and supporting Commonwealth vessels approaced the Lebanese coast and the first landing crafts swiftly approaced Khalde (Red) Beach. The site chosen for the Marine assault was four miles from the city of Beirut and 700 yards from the Beirut International Airport.

    And while the UN warships and carrier-based aircraft standed by, anti-government guerrillas received the long-awaited signal and initiated their own actions elsewhere in Lebanon. US radio broadcasts and local, CIA-funded propaganda campaign calling for immediate "liberation of Lebanon from her foreign occupiers" had really paved the way for the first wave of Marines hitting the beaches. It soon became evident that the combination of tactical surprise, bribery and covert action had been extremely successful - local Sunni militia defending the area had abandoned itīs positions and fled in disarray before the Marines even reached ashore, while the population throughout the Maronite-dominated parts of Lebanon greeted the news of US invasion with great enthusiasm.



    The US force landed practically unopposed, and the operation was well underway in the morning of 24rd of September.

    Chaos Reigns - Battle of Beirut

    When the Lebanese HQ realized what was happening, the Baathist regime soon concluded that defending and holding the capitol would be their sole chance to remain in power. Signs of open rebellion against the government were already visible through the country, and evacuating Beirut would be a fatal sign of weakness in the current situation. Therefore the drafters of the Baīath intensified their efforts, sandbags and cars were erected to improvised barricades that blocked the narrow side alleys of the ancient city and the increasingly desperate junta urged the Army to "defeat the Zionist invader at the walls of Beirut." The stage was set to the bloodiest battle of the Middle-Eastern War.


    When the renewed US offensive begun, it forced the Lebanese Baathists to make some hard choices concerning their local allies. This in turn offered the Shi'ite population a chance to get themselves involved to the Lebanese politics at a whole new level. While the Shiīite volunteers almost certainly were aware of the suicidal nature of their mission, they soon composed large part of the various armed groups that were hastily organized to defend the capitol.

    While the Marines moved towards the strategic targets within and in the vicinity of Beirut, the situation elsewhere in Lebanon descended towards civil war. The government retained control in Tripoli, a predominately Moslem city. Other loyal elements wielded power in the Moslem city of Sidon in the south and large areas in the El Bika Valley contiguous to Syria. The Druze in the central region of Lebanon, the Chouf, were now openly opposing the government. Within Beirut the Basta area soon became the strongest center of Baathist resistance within the city. Armed civilian partisans of the Syrian Social Nationalist Party (SSNP), the Christian Phalange party and other previously oppressed political forces were now openly operating in wide parts of the country, and the Lebanese Army, tasked to defend the southern part of the country against the invading UN forces begun to dissolute as the soldiers begun to flee from the front lines.


    A loyalist unit formed from local civilian volunteers and soldiers of the Lebanese Army on the move in the Old City on 24th of September. The chaotic first days of Operation Dauntless were marked by the massive number of fleeing civilians who tried to get out of the way of the fighting between various anti-government militias, invading US forces and Baathist troops.

    During the first day the fighting concentrated to the western parts of the city, as the Marines (having secured the airport and established secure perimeter around the actual beachhead) moved south within the city itself. Around this time the paralysis of the Baathist chain of command was allmost complete, and only the presence of loyalist local garrison forces prevented the Marines from finishing their link-up with the US Army troops that were quickly driving northwards from Southern Lebanon. But once the first narrow defense lines begun to take shape within Beirut, the Marine advance slowed to a crawl. Their superior fire support had little use in the densely-populated city filled with civilians, and the narrow streets channeled the attack towards few key areas, where smaller forces could successfully defend themselves against numerically superior foe. But while the Baathists might have had a chance to inflict significant casualties to the invading force, they were simultaneously attacked and harassed by the various militias operating in Beirut. While these forces acted independently and without any coordination with the Marines, their actions nevertheless soon forced the loyalist forces to withdraw towards the still-loyal parts of Beirut.


    While the Marines fought in Beirut, the 2nd Cavalry drove itīs way northwards, passing the Free French-controlled area at southern Lebanon along the way. While the fighting between various militias continued, the US troops moved in to fill the power vacuum created by the collapsing Baathist regime.

    While the internal situation in Lebanon was quickly descending towards Civil War, the MacArthur Administration was busily making plans for the postwar situation in the country. Negotiations between US diplomats and various exiled Lebanese opposition leaders had been ongoing well before Operation Dauntless began, but so far it seemed that only the hatred of Baathist dictatorship united the various Lebanese opposition groups. Ultimately the prevailing viewpoint was that the most important thing would be the removal of pro-Axis government - the actual structure of the new government of Lebanon could wait for the end of hostilities in the Middle-East.


    A Marine squad securing a roadblock in East Beirut.

    But while the Lebanese opposition groups argued, the young Marines kept fighting and dying in the inner city of Beirut. The remaining defenders forced the US troops to fight for every major building, and their deadly arsenal of Panzerfaust 150Ms, machine guns, mortars and anti-aircraft weapons took their toll among the ranks of the invaders. Casualties mounted as the forces engaged in desperate house-to-house fighting, but five days after the beginning of the offensive the Baathist resistance in Beirut had crumbled to isolated pockets of resistance accompanied by occasional sniper attacks. The circle of US troops around Beirut was complete, and only northern and eastern parts of Lebanon remained fully in control of the Baathists - largely due the arrival of Syrian reservist troops that had occupied the openly rebellious territories and re-stabilized the new front lines. It was clear for everyone that Lebanese Baathist government had lost the little credibility it ever had, and now clung to power merely because of Syrian support. The end of Baathist rule in Middle-East seemed to be at hand, and all sides reacted to this change in the balance of power.

    In Turkey President İsmet İnönü received an urgent message from the German Ambassador. And in Egypt a group of men decided that they would have to act now before it would be too late.



    The fighting of Operation Dauntless left the scenic old Beirut in ruins. As the dust settled down in the Lebanese capitol, the locals soon begun to realize that whatever the future had in store for Lebanon, there would be no going back to the fragile status quo that had kept the country intact before the Middle-Eastern War.
    Last edited by Karelian; 25-09-2008 at 12:52.
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  19. #199
    Major Zauberfloete's Avatar
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    Turkey as the equiliviant of China in OTL in the Korean War??? Now the stage is set all is ready for the next level of the middle eastern war!

  20. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zauberfloete
    Turkey as the equiliviant of China in OTL in the Korean War??? Now the stage is set all is ready for the next level of the middle eastern war!
    Not quite, the country is still far from friendly towards New Europe.
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