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Thread: The Prisoners of Silence - NSDAP 1936-1991 (History and background)

  1. #161
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    Well it is the evil-twin sister of nowadays europe! The only "sane" people left are the technocrats and well the military. With no von Brauns in the US, the allies have to work more or less from scratch.

    Well there Navy should be up to notch.

    Edit: Is it the AMX 30?

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zauberfloete
    Well it is the evil-twin sister of nowadays europe! The only "sane" people left are the technocrats and well the military. With no von Brauns in the US, the allies have to work more or less from scratch.
    Pff. Von Braun is greatly overrated for American rocketry.
    I am therefore officially rooting for a Franco-German strike on Russia, prompting the Soviets to strike back with their hitherto secret nukes. This will serve as a salutary lesson to all involved and leave everyone suitably chastened.-El Pip

    Great War: The American Front: Can the United States defeat Britain and its Confederate Lackeys? Or will the CSA defend its freedom against the Yankee Menace?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Faeelin
    My, my. I have a hunch the tank is a postwar French design, but no real evidence for it. Hrmm.
    The French did some tests based on the blueprints of E-50, but then abanoned them and focused to the AMX-13.

    Quote Originally Posted by Faeelin
    Is America ahead in anything again? The Luftwaffe has better fighters, the Wermacht has better tanks...
    Well, since the end of WWII the West has retained many technological advantages and is quickly closing the gap in other critical techs and weapon systems.

    Few examples of areas where Western countries retain clear technical superiourity include carriers and destroyers, ASW technology, radar designs, electronic countermeasures and code-breaking technology, computer designs and their applications, strategic bombers, tactical cooperation systems between airforces and ground troops, supply systems and nuclear weapons design.

    And as for the fighters and tanks:

    Sabre and other Western jets are appearing few years later than OTL due the lack of captured German blueprints and prototypes (Sabre used many originally German design features, such as Me 262-type airfoil and Me 262 HG II wing sweep), but now when the Sabre is finally being brought into service it employs a hydraulic system for the movement of the flight controls, eliminating the excessive control stick forces necessary to maneuver other types of airplanes at high speeds. When combined with the better American G-suits, this basically means that Ta-183-pilots will have to avoid direct dogfights where the Sabres will be able to outmanouver them. And when it comes to tactical bombers, the RAF continues the success of Mosquito with the introdution of their excellent Electric Canberras.

    In tank combat the situation is even worse from the German point of view. In the Italian Front during late WWII German panzers were actually somewhat outgunned or at even odds (with inferiour numbers) after the introdution of British Comets and US M26 Pershings - and then the British fielded Centurions. The Pz VII is thus in many ways just like the Panther - specifically designed to once again give the German Panzerwaffen equal chances to fight against the previously superiour enemy AFVs. But now the US forces are allready using Pattons and British have updated their Centurions - their tanks now have quite adequate infrared sights as well, allthough the German models are still little bit more sophisticated. So no Wünderwaffen here either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Faeelin
    Anyway, it strikes me as sad that the best hope for Europe are a bunch of technocrats led by a former architect.
    If this seems bad enough, just wait for the stagnated Hoffner era.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zauberfloete
    Well it is the evil-twin sister of nowadays europe! The only "sane" people left are the technocrats and well the military. With no von Brauns in the US, the allies have to work more or less from scratch.

    Well there Navy should be up to notch.

    Edit: Is it the AMX 30?
    Yep, Germans are relying on their superiour U-boats mainly because that´s the only field where Kriegsmarine still has some kind of technological advantage left.

    And no, it´s not the AMX 30 either.
    Last edited by Karelian; 09-08-2008 at 22:39.
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  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karelian
    Meanwhile Abwehr and Propagandaministerium should continue their efforts of spreading anti-Western propaganda and instigating revolt mentality elsewhere in Middle-East, including Iran.
    Ah, well there we go.

    Even if it's not a huge leap in technological advancement the Syrians who survived their Panzer IVs with that experience in mind should be able to put the new designs to great use.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karelian
    If this seems bad enough, just wait for the stagnated Hoffner era.
    I'm honestly not sure if Neuropa is richer than the Warsaw Pact states. Congratulations!
    I am therefore officially rooting for a Franco-German strike on Russia, prompting the Soviets to strike back with their hitherto secret nukes. This will serve as a salutary lesson to all involved and leave everyone suitably chastened.-El Pip

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  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karelian
    Few examples of areas where Western countries retain clear technical superiourity include carriers and destroyers, ASW technology, radar designs, electronic countermeasures and code-breaking technology, computer designs and their applications, strategic bombers, tactical cooperation systems between airforces and ground troops, supply systems and nuclear weapons design.
    With advantages in those critical areas this Cold War seems a bit one sided in the long run. What technological advantages do the Germans have?
    Only a fool fights a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the kingdom of fools fights a war on four fronts!

  7. #167
    Field Marshal Faeelin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rekjavik
    With advantages in those critical areas this Cold War seems a bit one sided in the long run. What technological advantages do the Germans have?
    Why should they have any?

    Ideological distortion of science? Check.

    Dislike of academia? Check.

    Rampant cronyism? Check.

    Mind you, the Cold War was a bit one sided in the long run too.
    I am therefore officially rooting for a Franco-German strike on Russia, prompting the Soviets to strike back with their hitherto secret nukes. This will serve as a salutary lesson to all involved and leave everyone suitably chastened.-El Pip

    Great War: The American Front: Can the United States defeat Britain and its Confederate Lackeys? Or will the CSA defend its freedom against the Yankee Menace?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rekjavik
    With advantages in those critical areas this Cold War seems a bit one sided in the long run. What technological advantages do the Germans have?
    Submarine design, AFV design, precision-guided munitions, missile technology, antitank weapon systems, antiair systems, infrared systems, aircraft engineering (only in certain fields such as flying wing-model aircrafts), infantry equipment and small arms design, transport planes...

    Overally the weapon technology of the three sides of the Cold War will remain on roughly equal levels until the 1980s, when the massive defense buildup of United States will finally begin to simply outspent the Reich and the USSR.

    Unsuprisingly this technological balance applies only to military technology: Civilians of New Europe in 1990s live in a society that has roughly equal tech level with OTL Europe in 1970s.

    Quote Originally Posted by Faeelin
    Why should they have any?

    Ideological distortion of science? Check.

    Dislike of academia? Check.

    Rampant cronyism? Check.

    Mind you, the Cold War was a bit one sided in the long run too.
    Well, all three applied to Soviets and their military-industrial complex pioneered many modern-day weapon system consepts. But as you can see from above, the economical superiourity and academic liberty of the West will ultimately swing the balance to their favour.
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    Field Marshal Nathan Madien's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karelian
    Overally the weapon technology of the three sides of the Cold War will remain on roughly equal levels until the 1980s, when the massive defense buildup of United States will finally begin to simply outspent the Reich and the USSR.
    Are you referring to Ronald Reagan and his policies?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Madien
    Are you referring to Ronald Reagan and his policies?
    It might as well ultimately be George H. W. Bush or someone else, since I haven´t really thought or overhauled that part of this timeline yet. Trying to write at least somewhat plausible description of US domestic policy in a world where Third Reich survived WWII and Vietnam War never happened will unsuprisingly require some background research. But all in good time, in next update it´s time to focus to the political consequences of Operation Reaper and the US offensive to Syria.

    Edit: Hooray for over 27 000 views
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    Quote Originally Posted by HKslan
    Ah, well there we go.

    Even if it's not a huge leap in technological advancement the Syrians who survived their Panzer IVs with that experience in mind should be able to put the new designs to great use.
    If I have any nitpicks with the story, then it's the idea that the Syria of the 1950s would in any way be able to build tanks. Syria had next to no industry when it became independent and it's really a wild assumption that they would ever be able to build up a heavy industry capable of producing cars, let alone tanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leviathan07
    If I have any nitpicks with the story, then it's the idea that the Syria of the 1950s would in any way be able to build tanks. Syria had next to no industry when it became independent and it's really a wild assumption that they would ever be able to build up a heavy industry capable of producing cars, let alone tanks.
    Hi, and thanks for commenting. You´re quite right. Most likely the best they could come up with (with large-scale German help) with their current industry would be an insignificant number of Syrian-assembled vehicles using parts that´s have been transferred in from outside.

    edit: I edited the previous chapter accordingly.
    Last edited by Karelian; 18-08-2008 at 00:42.
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    Overview of the Middle-Eastern War, Part XI: Crossing the Jordan

    Statement by the President:

    With deep regret I have to inform you that General Mark Clark has concluded that he is unable to give his wholehearted support to the policies of the United States Government and of the United Nations in matters pertaining to his official duties. In view of the specific responsibilities imposed upon me by the Constitution of the United States and the added responsibility which has been entrusted to be by the United Nations, I will accept his resign proposal and make a change of command in the Middle East. I have, therefore, relieved General Clark of his commands and have designated Lt. Gen. Matthew B. Ridgway as his successor.

    Full and vigorous debate on matters of national policy is a vital element in the constitutional system of our free democracy. It is fundamental, however, that military commanders must agree with the policies and directives issued to them in the manner provided by our laws and Constitution. In time of crisis, this consideration is particularly compelling.

    General Clark's place in history as one of our greatest commanders is fully established. The Nation owes him a debt of gratitude for the distinguished and exceptional service which he has rendered his country in posts of great responsibility. For that reason I repeat my regret at the necessity for the action I feel compelled to take in his case...


    In September 1953 General Mark W. Clark was already an old warrior with 40 years of active service behind him. He had fought in the trenches of Western Front during WWI, and during WWII his command in the Italian Front had ultimately captured Rome before the German resistance had forced the Allied offensive in Italian Peninsula to a halt. After the war he was America's youngest full general, and this together with his former experience from commanding multinational forces and his postwar position as the commander of the 15th Army Group in Italy likely contributed to Truman´s decision to send Clark to command Operation Damask.

    When Nasser and his Lebanese and Syrian allies had refused to surrender and re-enter negotiations after the early success of Operation Damask, General Clark used the forces of II Corps and the 2nd Marine Division to stabilize the situation in Palestine by occupying the region and driving away the various Arab militias openly operating there. After that he ordered his men to "pacify" and garrison Palestine while he waited for further instructions from Washington. But soon it became clear that the situation in Middle-East was not evolving according to the previous plans, and President Truman lacked the domestic support to expand the military mission in Palestine. After all, officially the new conflict wasn´t even war at all, and Truman was now effectively trapped by his earlier portrayal of Operation Damask as a swift and decisive intervention mission. Thus the conflict in Palestine entered into a phase of uneasy anti-partisan warfare, while the Syrian and Lebanese forces still occupied the northernmost Palestine behind the Safad Line. When President Taft came to office, Clark soon found a common ground with him and became a strong supporter of his peace plan. Taft wanted to end the stalemate in Middle-East in the negotiation table without escalating the situation any further, and Clark strongly supported Taft´s attempts.

    His critics claimed that the old warrior had simply lost heart and was merely being too proud to admit that his early passivity in Palestine had given the Lebanese and Syrians time to mobilize their reserves with German support. Maybe the failure at Salerno and the following bloodshed and heavy casualties of the bitter attritional warfare in Italy had made him overtly cautious. Or perhaps Clark simply understood the risks of escalating the conflict well enough. Some reporters claimed that Clark was once again merely seeking personal glory by trying to repeat his successful scheming in North Africa prior to Operation Torch. Ultimately it mattered little. When Taft´s unexpected death turned the tables and MacArthur took office, Clark understood that his dovish viewpoints were no longer supported by his superiors and made a decision to retire from active duty without making a scene.



    General Mark W. Clark ended his military career with a mixed reputation. He tended to unjustly blame his subordinates for his own failures, but was quick to seek personal fame and glory if opportunity presented itself. His wartime service received much criticism due the Allied defeat at Salerno and the bloody battles of Anzio, Rapido River, Vermonte and Monte Casino. Yet his own troops generally called him "the front-line general", since he frequently visited the most forward positions encouraging the troops.

    With Clark out from the way, President MacArthur took special interest in naming his successor. He soon found a suitable candidate. Like MacArthur, he had literally spent his entire life in the U.S. Army. The son of an artillery colonel, he graduated from West Point in 1917, where the yearbook described him as, "Beyond doubt, the busiest man in the place." Having just missed the fighting in France, he worked his way through a series of peacetime assignments, including stints in China, Nicaragua, and the Philippines. But in 1942 he was named commander of the 82nd Division, just before it was turned into one of the army's new elite units. He reorganized this unit as the first airborne division, and then commanded his unit through some of the most difficult fighting in World War ll. His dynamic and outstanding leadership of the 82nd Airborne Division, and later, of the XVIII Airborne Corps, enabled American airborne troops to establish an enviable record of success in North Africa, Sicily and Italy. He had also gained wide fame by saving his scattered unit and breaking through enemy encirclement back to the Utah Bridgehead during the disastrous Operation Overlord.

    MacArthur had known and thought highly of him since the early 1920s, when he placed the young captain in charge of physical education at West Point. With his keen intelligence, aggressive instincts, and reputation as a fighter, Matthew B. Ridgway was the logical choice to take over Clark´s command in Middle-East.



    In a foreshadowing of his aggressive nature, Ridgway asked specifically that if he found the combat situation "to my liking" whether MacArthur would have any objection to "my attacking"? MacArthur answered, "II Corps is yours, Matt. Do what you think best." For deeply religious Ridgway his new mission in the Holy Land was first and foremost a symbolical struggle that he took extremely seriously. He was also quick to utilize the good cooperation system General Clarck had developed with the Haganah and it´s US-trained Chief of Staff, Mickey Marcus.

    Operation Joshua

    After the succesfull Operation Reaper whole Palestine was firmly under the control of US troops and local Haganah units. But while the beaten and demoralized Arab forces withdrew behind the Litani and Jordan rivers, Ridgway had no intentions of giving the enemy forces any rest or pity. Together with Haganah Chief of Staff, Marcus, he planned a quick follow-up mission that sought to utilize the success of Reaper before the Syrians had time to recover. This would be the first true joint combat operation between US forces and Haganah,, and General Ridgway strongly supported it, since he wanted to utilize all possible forces to achieve necessary superiority in numbers with the limited strength of II Corps and it´s supporting units.



    The actual plan followed battle-proven US combined arms tactics and used the mobile armored units and the superiour fire support of II Corps as it´s key asset. The Combat Commands of First Armored and the 2nd Cavalry Group (Mech) would smash through the main enemy defense line with heavy artillery and air support and capture the strategically important Golan Heights region with the support of Haganah forces. Meanwhile the two airborne brigades would link up with 2nd Marine division at the Lebanese coast and keep in contact with the enemy forces at Litani River.


    A wreck of a Panzer IV in position at Golan Heights after the beginning of Operation Joshua. The Sea of Galilee is visible in the plain below. After the Free French forces had withdrawn to their secure bridgeheads at the Lebanese coast and Operation Damask had begun, the Syrians soon dug their remaining Panzer IVs into fixed, camouflaged positions at Golan Heights. Their fortified positions offered excellent fields of fire and had helped to repel the initial American probing attack during Operation Reaper, but later on the superior armor and main guns of US Pattons gave the Americans the chance to destroy the foremost dug-in panzers safely behind the effective distance of their obsolete 75mm main guns.

    The operation begun with heavy aerial bombardment on the first hours of 20th of September 1953. During the previous nights small patrols of Haganah commandos had performed good initial reconnaissance of the foremost enemy positions, and as the night turned into dawn the US artillery opened fire against previously marked targets. Ridgway had quickly learned to respect the fighting capabilities of the units of the SS Arab Legion, but he was also firmly aware that the rank-and-file of the Syrian army consisted of poorly trained conscripts who´d break when struck with an concentrated artillery barrage.

    And true enough, as the support fire moved ahead and units of the First Armored drove ahead, the offensive initially met only token resistance and only enemy minefields delayed the crossing of Jordan.



    Haganah Shermans of the Carmeli Brigade preparing to move ahead. By mounting a modern main gun to the old chassis, Haganah had turned the obsolete workhorse tank of the last war into usable makeshift weapon in the modern battlefield. Yet their new main gun did little to protect the crew, and these "eggshells with hammers" were main targets for Syrian antitank crews during Operation Joshua.

    The first day of the operation witnessed the good initial success of CCA and CCB in the northern flank of the operation, while the diversionary attacks of Oded and Golani Brigades of Haganah were met with much more determined Syrian resistance - just like the plan expected. By pinning the defending Syrian reservist formations down the Haganah units tied them to battle just when the Second Cavalry Group pushed forward towards southeast.

    By now the other part of Ridgway´s plan was also bearing fruit: enemy air activity above Golan Heights had intensified significantly, as the Germans sought to support their struggling allies with all available means. Their small-scale air raids against supply convoys and troop concentrations were quite insignificant, but the presence of enemy Ta-183As prevented the US forces from receiving all possible air support until friendly planes would have regained air superiourity.

    But just like the Haganah brigades tied down the Syrian reservists, the USAF activity above Golan Heights diverted SAF(Syrian air force) away from Lebanese airspace just when the second part of the UN offensive was about to begin there. Soon wrecks of shot-down planes from both sides could be found through the area, but during these bloody days of September the air superiourity above the main battlefield was evenly contested. But while the US supply system provided a steady flow of replacement planes and pilots to their frontline squadrons, each Ta-183A lost by the SAF was much harder to replace.



    Abanoned M46 Patton near the town of Quneitra.

    As the battle for the Heights continued during the second day, the Syrians facing Haganah units south from the US main axis of attack begun to break contact and withdraw towards Quneitra, the regional capitol. Successful holding action of Arabische SS-Freiwilligen-Kavallerie-Regiment "Khalid ibn al-Walid", that once again acted as a firebrigade, bought enough time to draw the bulk of the personel of these reservist units away from approaching encirclement. Still the Haganah units managed to take a large number of prisoners and capture the little heavy equipment these units had originally had.

    Now the Haganah armored units deployed behind the Golani Brigade also surged forward, and struck through the wavering Syrian defense at the southern edge of the operational area. Driving towards northeast through the night of 22nd of September they sought to close the trap by capturing the southern part of the Heights. Syrian position was now turning more and more like a general retreat towards new defense line that was hectically being organized around Quneitra.



    LG40, a WWII-era 105mm German recoilless rifle was the heaviest antitank weapon available for common Baathist infantry units. The heavy back blast made this weapon rather easy to spot in the battlefield, but it´s good range and excellent armor penetration abilities still made it an effective weapon when deployed properly.

    The battle around Quneitra ultimately stopped the CCB and CCC of the First Armored within few miles of their original goal after the fiercest fighting of the whole operation on 23rd of September. Here the Syrian HQ was forced to commit the "Khalid ibn al-Walid" into a battle of attrition in frontline duty, and thanks to the increased SAF air support and the excellent anti-tank capabilities of the brigade the American offensive was stopped to the outskirts of the town. The best unit of the Syrian Baathists, the "Yazid ibn Abu Sufyan" volunteer brigade had been practically destroyed as a fighting unit in this battle after it´s earlier setbacks in Saafad Line had already weakened it. The situation of regular reservist regiments was better only because their morale was already so low that they had retreated rather than fought. The new fron tline stabilized at the end of 24th of September was "a line in the sand", and the shocked Syrian Baathists wired to Berlin and requested immediate assistance, since they were certain that the next US offensive would not stop before Damascus. But while the Syrian Baathists panicked, Ridgway soon continued his offensive operations in Lebanon.



    Syrian Pz VII Löwe in training mission near Damascus. The roughly dozen Pz VIIs that Syrians were able to field during September 1953 were still kept away from the front lines, where the 200 Pattons of US armored units still dominated the battlefield despite their vulnerability to modern German at-weapons.
    Last edited by Karelian; 25-09-2008 at 12:58.
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    You based the beginning of this update on the OTL Korean War, right? It does sound like the Korean War...if the Korean War had been fought in the Middle East.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Madien
    You based the beginning of this update on the OTL Korean War, right? It does sound like the Korean War...if the Korean War had been fought in the Middle East.
    Well, since the US intervention to Palestine during Operation Damask had UN mandate (and United Nations in TTL is organized in a different matter) there are naturally certain cimilarities.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karelian
    *Can anyone quess the real model of this tank?
    It looks quite similar to a Swiss Pz 61...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karelian
    Soon wrecks of shot-down planes from both sides could be found through the region, but the air superiourity above the main battlefield was evenly contested. And while the US supply system provided a steady flow replacements to their frontline squadrons, each Ta-183A lost by the SAF was much harder to replace.[/SIZE][/FONT]
    Hrmm. I am surprised that air superiority is evenly contested; are there any Arab pilots with Bavarian accents?

    Fascinating. Although I have no idea what the US will do with its victory.
    I am therefore officially rooting for a Franco-German strike on Russia, prompting the Soviets to strike back with their hitherto secret nukes. This will serve as a salutary lesson to all involved and leave everyone suitably chastened.-El Pip

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    Out of interest what happened with India and Pakistan? I ask simply because with Europe as a market essentially cut off I would assume that the United States would need to focus its commercial interests elsewhere, and whilst South America would undoubtedly get a fair amount of it I would see it within Americas economic and diplomatic interests to develop new markets. Which is where either or both India and Pakistan might come in, something which becomes increasingly sensible when considering the war being fought in the Middle East during the 50's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Faeelin
    Hrmm. I am surprised that air superiority is evenly contested; are there any Arab pilots with Bavarian accents?

    Fascinating. Although I have no idea what the US will do with its victory.
    The ground-based USAF units and CAGs of the Navy are simultaneously engaged elsewhere as well (more of that in the next update, things are busy in Lebanon), while the SAF (and it´s large number of "military advisor" pilots) focused all of it´s available force to Golan to no avail.

    And the diplomatic goals of MacArthur administration are rather simple - rollback of the fascist presence in Middle-East, by force if necessary, establishment of friendly regimes and finding an acceptable solution to the Palestinian question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zauberfloete
    Looks like Syria will fall very soon! Will Iraq join in to save its neighbor?
    Somebody has to do something or else Syrian Baathists won´t make it, but the current Iraqi regime has no sympathy towards the current masters of Damascus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt_Steiner
    It looks quite similar to a Swiss Pz 61...
    Close enough, it´s Swiss design but actually the later Pz 68. The first prototype came out in 1958 so I´d say it´s not too far-flung to assume that roughly equivalent German AFV would have made it to the field a few years earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by BwenGun
    Out of interest what happened with India and Pakistan? I ask simply because with Europe as a market essentially cut off I would assume that the United States would need to focus its commercial interests elsewhere, and whilst South America would undoubtedly get a fair amount of it I would see it within Americas economic and diplomatic interests to develop new markets. Which is where either or both India and Pakistan might come in, something which becomes increasingly sensible when considering the war being fought in the Middle East during the 50's.
    Hi, and thanks for commenting. It is indeed true that Britain and (southern) Italy are a poor placement for OTL Western European markets, and thus the US economic interests are increasingly focused towards developing Asian economies. This has several implications, that will have to be covered with an additional update eventually.
    Blue Max Alternate History Mod for Hearts of Iron 3

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