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Thread: Chimú Treachery: Golden World Superpower

  1. #41
    Field Marshal Isaac Brock's Avatar

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    Very interesting stuff. The challenge here is clearly the trade off between colonizing like mad to get more manpower, and starting the BB wars early enough to be able to avoid being steamrollered.

    I had a couple of questions though. It looks like you did not colonize Pastaza beyond population 1,000. This means that it will take about 400 years to hit a population of 20,000 which would give more manpower. Sending an additional 10 colonists (which would cost what, 700 d), would mean that you'd get the manpower sometime in the 18th century I guess, and getting it to population 4,000 (which would cost a lot - 2500 d or something?) would mean you could get the extra manpower in the early 17th century. OK it's a lot of money for one extra point of manpower, but presumably you have lots of cash. Why did you decide to leave it at 1,000?

    Second is it possible for Chimu to go less land at first (to get more colonists) and move to full land in time for BB wars? Manpower being key, faster colonization would clearly help. I guess it depends on how long you can spend between getting maps and going BB.

    Third, my experience is that taking out Andalucia and Toledo usually curtails Spanish colonization. While I can see the advantages of having Andalucia as a staging area, and of having the COT, I would be worried that the reduced Spanish colonization would make getting manpower much harder than it might be otherwise. Did you think about taking Galicia and Asturias (for example) instead of Andalucia and Toledo?

    Sorry about all the kibbitzing - I've no right to complain as I would never try this, but I am interested in how you planned this out.
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  2. #42
    Major Nebukadnezar's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by ws2_32
    Of course I have to colonize all of America. I need every little 0.25 of manpower I can get. I also need every colony built by another nation that is less than 5000 population. Unfortunately, the majors do not seem to be doing very well at colonizing in this game.
    some thoughts about your manpower:

    1. events (MP-related)
    plague+New Land Claimed: these events target every province.
    Agricultural Revolution+Establish Cantonments: only provinces are targeted which could give you MP. As Spain you won't get this event in american provinces for example but you can get them in african/asian provinces when you have a land-connection (played several games just to test this for Spain)

    For maximizing the positive effects of these events you want as many provinces as possible and most of them should not be in America (to avoid the negative effect of plague) and you want all of your provinces in America to be your culture (you get less MP when a positive event targets f.e. Zacatecas)


    2. DP-settings:
    You can increase the likelyness of getting these events when you avoid the dp-settings which would enable other events.

    3. Keep the AI in America alive.
    The AI gets events, too, and MP will increase most of the time

    4. colonies from europeans:
    build a level-1 fortress when you get a province>5000 and wait for rebels to spawn. Keep those rebels around until the popoulation is lowered to <5000 and province culture will switch to your culture

    5. province growth/Stab
    When money is not the limiting factor for you but MP then you may be interested in building manufactories where you can get a boost to MP. 1K, 20 K and 200K are the interesting numbers for province population. Build a manufactory where you want to increase provincegrowth.

    6. Colonies:
    If you're going for colonizing 1-2 provinces at a time then you want to get the natives no matter what aggressivness. Otherwise you won't get to the magical 20K provincepopulation.
    On the other hand you can also build as many colonies as you want. Like Russia colonizing the sibirian corridor (do you remember my ottoman empire WCv?) you can place as many level-1 colonies as you want without penalties for colony placement when these colonies have a land connection to your capital. In this case you won't get to 20K province population but you can have more provinces (also interesting for better research)

    1-6 will add up over time when your current MP is that low

    7. vassal
    Decentralized+1 vassal in America (the MP-bug is still active in 1.09)

  3. #43
    World Conquest Fanboy Grundius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebukadnezar
    4. colonies from europeans:
    build a level-1 fortress when you get a province>5000 and wait for rebels to spawn. Keep those rebels around until the popoulation is lowered to <5000 and province culture will switch to your culture
    Doesn't this only happen if you are a European nation?
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  4. #44
    General ws2_32's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac Brock
    Very interesting stuff. The challenge here is clearly the trade off between colonizing like mad to get more manpower, and starting the BB wars early enough to be able to avoid being steamrollered.
    I must start the BB wars soon or else I have no time for a decent conquest with a low manpower. I must colonize as well. I can do both.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac Brock
    I had a couple of questions though. It looks like you did not colonize Pastaza beyond population 1,000. This means that it will take about 400 years to hit a population of 20,000 which would give more manpower. Sending an additional 10 colonists (which would cost what, 700 d), would mean that you'd get the manpower sometime in the 18th century I guess, and getting it to population 4,000 (which would cost a lot - 2500 d or something?) would mean you could get the extra manpower in the early 17th century. OK it's a lot of money for one extra point of manpower, but presumably you have lots of cash. Why did you decide to leave it at 1,000?
    I started the game with no concern over manpower. I also did not know all the rules on manpower. There would be better choices for sending colonists at the start. Some provinces are only like 4K population or so. As it turned out, I needed all the money I had saved in census taxes to fund the war on Spain. If I had minted like 6000d (about the amount I was over in land tech two research), I would have been better off in tech and with better populations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac Brock
    Second is it possible for Chimu to go less land at first (to get more colonists) and move to full land in time for BB wars? Manpower being key, faster colonization would clearly help. I guess it depends on how long you can spend between getting maps and going BB.
    Well, I plan early badboy wars; so it does not make sense to play with the Land slider. Moving to Free Trade before Centralization may be a good choice. It means more minting and higher tech costs. I need land tech.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac Brock
    Third, my experience is that taking out Andalucia and Toledo usually curtails Spanish colonization. While I can see the advantages of having Andalucia as a staging area, and of having the COT, I would be worried that the reduced Spanish colonization would make getting manpower much harder than it might be otherwise. Did you think about taking Galicia and Asturias (for example) instead of Andalucia and Toledo?
    I always take Andalusia. The extra colonist a year is better under my control than in the AI's control. Taking Toledo was a toss up decision. I was hopeful for a large Spain to form with the annexation of Aragon. Unfortunately, that event was already past and Spain and Aragon hate each other. So I could have done better. But the AI is not colonizing anyway. Portugal is wealthy. They mostly only make trade posts.

    Almost all the AI makes trade posts. I am just going to wipe them away, the colonial nations, not the trade posts. The AI is not actually afraid of me; but it makes a good story line.



    Quote Originally Posted by Nebukadnezar
    some thoughts about your manpower:

    1. events (MP-related)
    plague+New Land Claimed: these events target every province.
    Agricultural Revolution+Establish Cantonments: only provinces are targeted which could give you MP. As Spain you won't get this event in american provinces for example but you can get them in african/asian provinces when you have a land-connection (played several games just to test this for Spain)

    For maximizing the positive effects of these events you want as many provinces as possible and most of them should not be in America (to avoid the negative effect of plague) and you want all of your provinces in America to be your culture (you get less MP when a positive event targets f.e. Zacatecas)
    Well if the provinces are not in America, then I do not get the benefits of new land claimed. New land claimed is better than plague is bad, if that makes sense. Actually a manpower event in Zacatecas would help a lot, I believe, because I do get manpower from Zacatecas; and high manpower provinces benefit more from manpower events than do low manpower provinces of my own culture.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nebukadnezar
    2. DP-settings:
    You can increase the likelyness of getting these events when you avoid the dp-settings which would enable other events.
    Other game considerations are more important than trying to lower Serdom to five for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebukadnezar
    3. Keep the AI in America alive.
    The AI gets events, too, and MP will increase most of the time
    Yes, I thought of that. It would be nice to just let them have their capital. But badboy wars are soon. There are not enough diplomats for constant tromping on the Americans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebukadnezar
    4. colonies from europeans:
    build a level-1 fortress when you get a province>5000 and wait for rebels to spawn. Keep those rebels around until the popoulation is lowered to <5000 and province culture will switch to your culture
    Can I reduce a population below 5K?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebukadnezar
    5. province growth/Stab
    When money is not the limiting factor for you but MP then you may be interested in building manufactories where you can get a boost to MP. 1K, 20 K and 200K are the interesting numbers for province population. Build a manufactory where you want to increase provincegrowth.
    I will keep it in mind. But I cannot build anything but FAAs for a long time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebukadnezar
    6. Colonies:
    If you're going for colonizing 1-2 provinces at a time then you want to get the natives no matter what aggressivness. Otherwise you won't get to the magical 20K provincepopulation.
    On the other hand you can also build as many colonies as you want. Like Russia colonizing the sibirian corridor (do you remember my ottoman empire WCv?) you can place as many level-1 colonies as you want without penalties for colony placement when these colonies have a land connection to your capital. In this case you won't get to 20K province population but you can have more provinces (also interesting for better research)

    1-6 will add up over time when your current MP is that low
    I do not assimilate natives very often. It is pretty late for that advice. I like the idea of land connected colonies. I could let a bunch grow to city status about the time I really needed to make a push for greater conquest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebukadnezar
    7. vassal
    Decentralized+1 vassal in America (the MP-bug is still active in 1.09)
    I do not know what you mean. I will not have any vassals in America.
    Last edited by ws2_32; 09-09-2006 at 19:05.
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  5. #45
    Major Nebukadnezar's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by ws2_32
    Well if the provinces are not in America, then I do not get the benefits of new land claimed. New land claimed is better than plague is bad, if that makes sense. Actually a manpower event in Zacatecas would help a lot, I believe, because I do get manpower from Zacatecas; and high manpower provinces benefit more from manpower events than do low manpower provinces of my own culture.
    MP: you get MP from Zacatecas (at least if you have a land conncetion)
    'Plague' is noz compareable to 'New land claimed' when you look just at the MP.
    NLC gives you +1 MP no matter the size of your nation. Plague is sclaed and reduces MP by -6 when your nation is >200 provinces. Plague becomes really bad the bigger you are. In the beginning (when you're small) you won't have a loss of MP (only population) but then it's getting really bad.

    No, there is no difference between 'high' and 'low' manpower provinces. It seems so because most 'high' provinces are populous provinces.
    +1 MP in 200K Zacatecas would give you +1*0.75 MP (you also get -2 for wrrong culture but this alredy applied)
    +1 MP in a 4K colonial city of your culture would give you only +1*0.25 but
    It's the province population which is important.
    +1 MP in a 4K colonial city which isn't of your culture would most likely give you nothing. Let's say the province had a base MP of 6 before the event (That's already really high for american provinces). Now it's 7 after the event. 7*0.25=1.75 MP but you get -2 for wrong culture..... = 0
    You would get 7*0.5-2=1.5 MP when this province reaches 20K
    Zacatecas should be the only province in America to be able to get over 200 K. For every other province it's only the question whether (and when) 20K is reached. 20K is very important for your MP

    Quote Originally Posted by ws2_32
    Yes, I thought of that. It would be nice to just let them have their capital. But badboy wars are soon. There are not enough diplomats for constant tromping on the Americans.
    Get 3-4 of them into your alliance. Those without living in danger of getting dowed from europeans or other american nations are good vassals for you and won't cost you diplomats: zapotecas, Navaho, Dakota.

    Quote Originally Posted by ws2_32
    Can I reduce a population below 5K?
    Yes. 1K is the magical number.

    Quote Originally Posted by ws2_32
    I will keep it in mind. But I cannot build anything but FAAs for a long time.
    Doens't matter, just the +2 provincegrowth are important to get a province to 20K when MP is your major concern.

    Quote Originally Posted by ws2_32
    I do not know what you mean. I will not have any vassals in America.
    There is a bug with vassals/MP. You get additional MP based on your own MP when you have a vassal (same continent?). Being decentralized increases the effect but the big effect on MP comes from having 1 vassal. Test it by save-edit to see whether an american nation is interesting for you as a vassal instead of annexing.

  6. #46
    General ws2_32's Avatar

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    Chimú Treachery: Golden World Superpower

    Part Two

    War in Central America
    War with England and Austria
    Wars Due to Very Bad Reputation
    Wars in North America
    Badboy Wars


    War in Central America

    The next goal is gaining the gold income from Aztec Empire. It takes a few years to bring troops back across the sea. In diplomatic actions, Chimu gives gifts to Spain. An Iberian alliance is once again had with all countries in Iberia. Spain calls the alliance to war with landlocked Hessen and Bavaria. A gift is made to Aztec Empire; and a royal marriage is made. The throne of Aztec Empire is claimed. A royal marriage is made with Maya.

    On December 1, 1424, Chimu declares war on Aztec Empire. Stability drops to -3. Aztec Empire is currently distracted in a war with Maya. Maya currently has a siege in Aztec Empire. That is okay since a war with Maya is anticipated. Chimu's 57K cavalry come from the north in small numbers of 5K to 7K.

    Aztec Empire completes a siege in Maya's high attrition Guatemala. In the confusion of multiple wars Chimu arrives to reduce Aztec Empire's troops to only 18K, which flee out of sight into unexplored lands. Aztec Empire rebuilds a mighty force of infantry in unexplored Michoagan. Chimu quickly explores the plains of Atlixco. By the time Michoagan is explored, it is decided to allow Aztec Empire to build as large an army as it cares to. All provinces other than Michoagan are besieged.

    A windfall event occurs converting the religion of Andalusia to pagan. The shipyard in Andalusia now has build capacity for as many as seven ships and 3K men, more with a tax collector.

    Aztec Empire reaches the supply limit in Michoagan and continues to build troops. Aztec Empire does not move its troops. Other than Tehuacan, besieged by Maya, and Michoagan all Aztec provinces are captured or nearly so. Maya completes its siege in Tehuacan and begins a pile up of troops in its homelands. Maya's throne is claimed. Stability is raised to -2.

    On September 1, 1526, Chimu declares war on Maya. Troops of Maya in the plains of Tehuacan are quickly annihilated as are the few troops in their core provinces. On October 16, 1528, Maya is annexed.

    Michoagan is the only province of Central America that is uncontrolled by Chimu. A total of 33K Chimu cavalry remain in Central America. Another 16K reinforcements come by ship. The first efforts of knocking Aztec Empire's 52K infantry off the mountain in Michoagan are with insufficient sized armies of 5K and 7K. Next armies of 17K and 18K are used. More reinforcements are shipped in. On September 20, 1529, Chimu finally wins a battle against Aztec Empire. Aztec Empire's remaining 42K infantry are forced into the plains of Atlixco where there is supply for 17K of Chimu's troops. Aztec soldiers are corralled between two plains provinces. Only a remaining 30K of Chimu's cavalry are needed to annihilate the Aztec warriors. Hessen accepts a white peace with Chimu. On April 29, 1531, Aztec Empire is annexed. Chimu has 37K cavalry and 8K infantry. War exhaustion stands at 3.488.


    War with England and Austria

    Additional warships and galleys are built. The number of warships is increased to 23; and 35 galleys are built over time in Andalusia. The slow speed of moving troops is not so much of a concern since it takes time to lower war exhaustion and since some technological advancements are needed before kicking off the badboy wars; land tech five would be nice.

    War is planned with England. England has a colonial city in St. Thomas that must be converted to Andean culture. Also England has a trade post in Bermuda and some colonies in unexplored regions of North America. Hopefully stolen maps will reveal more of the Atlantic for a more rapid crossing. Maps of the areas around North American tribes may be useful too.

    England has a fire phase at land tech nine; but there is not much else to conquer right now. The Americans are fairly poor and they might get some manpower events if left alone for a time. There is some BB to spend, currently at 25.4 of 42.

    In the years leading up to war with England, the first exceptional year event lowers inflation by 2% to 23.9%. The gold province of Monterey is colonized. Gold inflation is back up to 0.20% per year. Income is 129.3d per month, 88.0d from gold. Chimu is the richest nation in the world above China's 90.8d per month. An accident sends ten galleys crashing into rough seas in the Western Approaches between Iberia and the English Channel. Warships combined with some galleys will be used to fight in the war against England as a result.

    Military access with Portugal in and around the English Isles is used to move troops into place. In addition to Andalusia, Toledo also converts to pagan. A single state gift improves relations with England from -67 to +200.

    On June 21, 1536, Chimu DoWs England. A total of 76K Chimu cavalry surround England. Unfortified St. Thomas is quickly captured. Troops enter England from Portugal's Yorkshire and Picardie. Calais, Lincoln, and soon Kent are besieged. England's troops do not respond initially, except to take control of some Chimu colonies. Chimu retains a war score lead after Calais, Lincoln, and Kent are captured.

    Papal States DoWs Aragon. Austria enters the war along side of their alliance leader, Papal States. The Iberian alliance joins the war on Papal States. Chimu must honor the alliance or face a possibly bad situation in Iberia when they might be attacked by Portugal, Spain, or Aragon. Austia owns the CoT in Flandern, which would be a nice addition to Chimu's empire.

    Once captured, England moves 30K men into Lincoln. Afterward England besieges Kent. England assaults, captures, and guards Andalusia. However Chimu besieges six more of England's provinces, which are eventually captured.

    The largest battle of the war comes as 20K English infantry march to a costly victory across the Thames to face 20K Chimu cavalry plus reinforcements just as Anglia and England's maps are captured. England gains control of a nearly completed siege in Anglia. England does not have maps or additional colonies of much interest. In the West, Chimu troops are distracted by a rebellion in Saltillo. The English trade post in Bermuda has not been captured or burned. A quick peace offer is made to England. Peace is not expected, but if it is accepted it may save some time at war. Attention can then be directed to gaining Flandern from Austria. England agrees to give St. Thomas and money for peace. Chimu does not gain Bermuda; but the north Atlantic crossing remains unfavorable anyway. Besides, the Bahamas were discovered in the war against Spain.

    In the war against Austria, Chimu collects troops on the Normandie coast. After a few battles, Austria's 12K defending infantry in Flandern are slowly reduced and finally annihilated. Chimu guards the Coast of Holland with a fleet of 23 warships and 25 galleys. The combination of Portugal's fleet and Chimu's fleet annihilate all Austrian ships. Austria's undefended province of Friesen is also besieged. Once Flandern is captured, a separate peace is made with Austria's alliance leader, Papal States. Chimu must prevent Spain from ending the war with little gain for Chimu. Chimu besieges Franche-Compte, Alsace, and Mainz. Austrian troops prepare for battle.

    Austria offers 400d for peace. Chimu refuses the tempting offer. Austria spends 350d on peace with Aragon instead. There is a diplomatic move event. Once Friesen is also captured, Chimu demands Flandern for peace. Austria refuses but then offers Flandern and Friesen for peace, on April 9, 1540. About to lose a few battles, Chimu accepts the unexpected and generous peace offer. Although Friesen is not desired, it does not create any additional borders than just taking Flandern. Chimu is once again at peace.

    A surplus of diplomats is used to purchase military access from Aragon. Troops can journey by land back to Andalusia. Bahamas is colonized; and troops are sent in preparation for war with Lenape. Chimu has only land tech four, but may as well start conquering the Americas. Manpower must be utilized that is mostly going unused at this time. Some gifts are sent to Lenape; and a royal marriage is established.


    Wars Due to Very Bad Reputation

    At -10, relations between Aragon and Spain have soured. On March 1, 1543, when Cologne declares independence from Aragon, Spain dishonors the alliance. That likely means a war between Chimu and Spain. Chimu dishonors the Iberian Alliance and to possibly enter an alliance with Spain while Portugal and Aragon, less likely to DoW, remain at war with Cologne. Spain DoWs Chimu before that can happen. Chimu is not prepared for war. Chimu ships return soldiers to Iberia. Chimu captures an unfortified CoT in Aires. Spain makes a quick peace giving a trade post in Isthmus for peace.

    Aragon annexes Cologne. On April 25, 1545, Aragon DoWs. Soon afterward Austria DoWs. Quick peaces are desired. Aragon's many trade posts are captured. Austria's undefended lowland provinces are besieged. No provinces change hands. Peace is restored on December 21, 1547.


    Wars in North America

    At the time land tech five is nearly reached, Chimu prepares for badboy wars by building up to the supply near the supply limit in cavalry near 100K, over half of which are kept in Iberia. Additional tens of thousands of infantry are built for assaults on fortresses in North American provinces. Chimu claims Lenape's throne. Just as stability reaches -2 on July 1, 1549, Chimu declares war on Lenape. Cavalry precede the infantry from ships off Lenape's coast. One of Lenape's four provinces is assaulted at a time. Tuscarora must be discovered. There is some delay in capturing Tuscarora. All of Lenape's troops are annihilated. Lenape is annexed on November 12, 1550. Chimu's large army prevents DoWs from Europeans at this time.

    Investment is made into stability, which has risen in cost to 1282d. The goal is to kick off the badboy wars by force-annexing allies, Iroquois and Shawnee. Badboy is 37 of 42. On March 1, 1552, Chimu DoWs Iroquois. Shawnee entered the war. Badboy is now 41 of 42.

    Iroquois provinces are assaulted two at a time. Some serious winter attrition occurs due to impatience in capturing Onondaga. Iroquois cannot be annexed because they also own Tennessee, in reach only through Shawnee's provinces at this time.


    Badboy Wars

    On February 5, 1553, a scandal at the court happens to Chimu. This lowers the badboy threshold and kicks off the badboy wars while half of Chimu's troops busy in North America and only half are present in Iberia. Austria, Cherokee, Portugal, and Spain DoW pretty quickly. Due to some amount of fear due to the unexpected turn of events, Chimu makes a hasty peace with Spain. Portugal's core provinces are besieged and captured. Portugal's maps allow a more rapid crossing of the Atlantic. Oporto is demanded and received for peace. Aragon does not DoW for a long time because they are at -3 stability. Iroquois offers all four controlled provinces other than the capital for peace. That is acceptable since it helps in war with Shawnee.

    Cherokee's troops in unexplored Alleghany do not move. Not much effort is required to assault all of Cherokee's provinces and annex their land and troops. Shawnee is attacked from the south. When Aragon DoWs, on May 13, 1554, Aragon becomes the prime focus of war in Europe; the troops there may as well have some purpose. A force of 24K troops in North America is shipped to Europe. Aragon's Iberian and French provinces are besieged with little opposition. Aragon captures Flandern. Then a different force of 19K of Aragon's infantry meets their end when attacking from Provence across the Rhone to the plains of Languedoc. Aragon eventually submits to a 43% peace demand while losing at 78% war score. Aragon gives Valencia, Aragon, Gerona, and Cevennes plus some money for peace.

    Efforts at capturing Austria's lowland provinces for peace do not succeed because Spain gains the lowland provinces by event. Spain is elected Holy Roman Emperor; so that greatly limits Austria's movements around Europe. Austia is no longer on Chimu's border. Still, there is no way of getting peace with Austria without invading their core provinces. In order to bypass 35K of Austria's troops in Piemonte, Chimu's invasion is made through Aragon's Italian province of Emilia and Portugal's Lombardia. Some battles are won in Andalusia, at sea, and against new Austrian recruits. On April 14, 1558, Iroquois DoWs preventing a recovery from a 1% war exhaustion. On May 15, 1558, Austria agrees to a demand of 50d while losing at 4% war score.

    Spain DoWs once more and peace with Spain is easily had once Aires is capture for the second time. It takes until May 12, 1559, before Iroquois is annexed. Peace is had for a short time until Portugal DoWs on October 12, 1559. Portugal has diplomatically annexed Scotland. Due to the annexed troops, Portugal is no longer the pushover they once were. Portugal besieges Oporto, Flandern, and Friesen. Portugal captures some undefended colonies. Chimu captures Portuguese provinces just after Portugal completes their sieges. Overall, Chimu is ahead by 3% war score. However, Chimu offers Flandern and Friesen for peace. Holding on to the northern provinces will only result in an unpredictable war with England who is currently at war against Poland. Chimu will soon be at war with France and other nations in the French area. Efforts may as well be consolidated. More can be gained in wars that are not intended to be so quick due to fears of out of control war exhaustion, especially a problem when manpower is low. On August 14, 1560, Portugal accepts peace. Chimu loses Flandern and Friesen. Peace is restored until truce expires with Aragon in a year.

    Except for Cape Verde, all of the sub-city colonies from 40 years ago have been raised to cities. An additional city is in Monterey. Jamaica is nearly a city at 978 population and growing at a 9% rate.


    ----- War exhaustion: 1.725
    ------------- Badboy: 65.4/44
    ---------- Inflation: 32.0%
    --- Manpower reserve: 47K
    -- "Maximum" reserve: 47K
    -- Manpower per year: 23K
    ------ Support limit: 121K
    ----- Current troops: (46330/97705/0)
    ------ Combat losses: (46978/112560/0)
    --- Attrition losses: (50454/55251/0)
    ----- Disband losses: (2283/1/0)
    ------- Total losses: (99715/167812/0)
    ------ Recent losses: (63766/127078/0)
    --- Army support 50%: 26.8
    -------- Naval limit: 793
    -------------- Ships: (24/56/0)
    ------- Naval losses: (2/16/0)
    -- Naval support 50%: 2.6
    --------- Census tax: 199
    --------- Tax income: 49.0
    --------- Production: 21.7
    -------------- Trade: 0.0
    --------------- Gold: 103.9
    ----- Monthly income: 174.7
    --------- For land 7: 1107/16748
    -------- For naval 2: 4764/15168
    -------- For stab +1: 1021/3061
    -------- For trade 3: 3227/81372
    -------- For infra 3: 4069/39105
    ----- Gold inflation: 0.18%
    -------- Aristocracy: 10
    ----- Centralization: 10
    --------- Innovative: 0
    ------- Mercantilism: 3
    ---------- Offensive: 10
    --------------- Land: 10
    ------------ Quality: 1
    ------------ Serfdom: 10
    My real name is Tom.
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  7. #47
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  8. #48
    Badboy wars so early. I don't know how you do it

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of Wellington
    Badboy wars so early. I don't know how you do it
    Well, given his capital is in America it will be comparatively easy for him to control them - he really only needs to worry about his neighbours after all.
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  10. #50
    Major Nebukadnezar's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of Wellington
    Badboy wars so early. I don't know how you do it
    Land tech.
    The longer you wait with a nation like chimu the more difficult it would become. The tech gap between chimu and the latin nations is not that big in 1550 and the most important weapon (cavalry) is much stronger compared to infantry than it would be later in the game.
    Getting a lot of provinces (>90) is also important for teching, so starting BB wars early is very important for nations like chimu.

  11. #51
    I can barely handle badboy wars as a European nation...

  12. #52
    General ws2_32's Avatar

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    Badboy wars are not so tough as an American nation bordering few nations. Only nations on your continent with a port will DoW (there are none now) or nations on your border will DoW, there are only three now.

    The tech gap is not that big, I have had land techs 5 to 7 they have had land techs 7 to 11. I use lots of cavalry. My DP sliders are high in Land and Offsiveness; so morale is pretty good. Besides, I rarely fight big battles. I just sort of avoid the AI. It is a different play style than I am used to. Usually, I wipe out all of an enemy's troops; but they just rebuild most of them anyway. This is a low manpower game; so I had better get used to being less confrontational.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebukadnezar
    MP: you get MP from Zacatecas (at least if you have a land conncetion)
    I get 2.0 manpower from Zacatecas with no land connection required. All of South Amercian and North American provinces are given the continent "America" in the province.csv file.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebukadnezar
    'Plague' is noz compareable to 'New land claimed' when you look just at the MP.
    NLC gives you +1 MP no matter the size of your nation. Plague is sclaed and reduces MP by -6 when your nation is >200 provinces. Plague becomes really bad the bigger you are. In the beginning (when you're small) you won't have a loss of MP (only population) but then it's getting really bad.
    Wow! Plague really is bad. I look at the randomevents.txt file and see -6 manpower for >80 and <200 provinces. It is as much as -12 manpower for >200 provinces. Ouch! All I can do is hope it doesn't hit where it hurts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebukadnezar
    No, there is no difference between 'high' and 'low' manpower provinces. It seems so because most 'high' provinces are populous provinces.
    +1 MP in 200K Zacatecas would give you +1*0.75 MP (you also get -2 for wrrong culture but this alredy applied)
    +1 MP in a 4K colonial city of your culture would give you only +1*0.25 but
    It's the province population which is important.
    +1 MP in a 4K colonial city which isn't of your culture would most likely give you nothing. Let's say the province had a base MP of 6 before the event (That's already really high for american provinces). Now it's 7 after the event. 7*0.25=1.75 MP but you get -2 for wrong culture..... = 0
    You would get 7*0.5-2=1.5 MP when this province reaches 20K
    Zacatecas should be the only province in America to be able to get over 200 K. For every other province it's only the question whether (and when) 20K is reached. 20K is very important for your MP
    Okay province population is what is important. So I would like to get a manpower improving event in Zacatecas compared to a low population province. By the way, the wrong culture modifier to manpower was reduced to -1 manpower back in the 1.07 betas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebukadnezar
    Get 3-4 of them into your alliance. Those without living in danger of getting dowed from europeans or other american nations are good vassals for you and won't cost you diplomats: zapotecas, Navaho, Dakota.
    Well, it is too late to keep most of the Americans. They are already annexed. Although I could release some as vassals. But I really would rather ally with some colonial nations so they can help me colonize America.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebukadnezar
    Doens't matter, just the +2 provincegrowth are important to get a province to 20K when MP is your major concern.
    Well, I am not building FAAs. Stability investment is a waste of money. I may research straight to land tech 18 instead of spending time getting naval tech 10 after land tech 14. Most provinces are hopeless to become 20K population. So it really does not matter too much. I must colonize for 0.25 of manpower and hope it adds up to enough. I can get my support limit up with economic resources, grain production, and weapon manufactories. Building troops may cause a lot of war exhaustion. Maybe that is what I am in for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebukadnezar
    There is a bug with vassals/MP. You get additional MP based on your own MP when you have a vassal (same continent?). Being decentralized increases the effect but the big effect on MP comes from having 1 vassal. Test it by save-edit to see whether an american nation is interesting for you as a vassal instead of annexing.
    I tried using edit to make Navaho a vassal. There was no noticable help to manpower.
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  13. #53
    Banned The Real Deal's Avatar

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    Very fine. Your alot braver than I, the thing that would scare me is France and minor european nations quickly out teching you in land, then blitzkrieging your arse out of Europe...and dreams of conquest going up in flames, good luck.

    Im watching

  14. #54
    General ws2_32's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Real Deal
    Very fine. Your alot braver than I, the thing that would scare me is France and minor european nations quickly out teching you in land, then blitzkrieging your arse out of Europe...and dreams of conquest going up in flames, good luck.

    Im watching
    Yes, normally I would be somewhat scared of France and would not want a border with them for some time. However, France is a small nation in this game and has few troops. Minors do not scare me except for the diplomats required for peace. I get three diplomats per year while at war. So that is good enough for handling badboy wars.

    Dreams of conquest are still likely to go up in flames. Wait to you see what happens next. It is a hard fought game and very challenging. Progress continues to be made. I am surprised I can keep it all together. My heart is still pounding from all the excitement.
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  15. #55
    well, i`m not pretending on deeply studying of this WC, i`ve just made quick 10 mins overview. Good work, but i`m suprised in one aspect - manpower.

    More than 3 years ago i`ve made WC for Chimu (it was done in 1.05 times). Manpower was very limitting problem to keep expansion. Look here http://www.europa-universalis.com/fo...7&postcount=30

    At 1725 (pre-CC times) i had 45 MP from colonized (mostly in 1500-1600) almost whole both Americas. Ws2_32 could get 47MP in 1560 with much less colonized provinces. In 1555 i had only 19MP, though avoided to annex Aztec because gold produce 4 times more inflation in 1.05 than now.
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  16. #56
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    Perhaps not expecting Portugal to annex Scotland like that, but very nice to see some provinces in Europe convert to Pagan. Nice work handling the BB wars and standing toe to toe with Europe.
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  17. #57
    General ws2_32's Avatar

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    Yes, I asked myself where did all those Portuguese soldiers come from? I looked up and saw lots of green where Scotland used to be. Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tonioz
    well, i`m not pretending on deeply studying of this WC, i`ve just made quick 10 mins overview. Good work, but i`m suprised in one aspect - manpower.

    More than 3 years ago i`ve made WC for Chimu (it was done in 1.05 times). Manpower was very limitting problem to keep expansion. Look here http://www.europa-universalis.com/fo...7&postcount=30

    At 1725 (pre-CC times) i had 45 MP from colonized (mostly in 1500-1600) almost whole both Americas. Ws2_32 could get 47MP in 1560 with much less colonized provinces. In 1555 i had only 19MP, though avoided to annex Aztec because gold produce 4 times more inflation in 1.05 than now.
    Thanks for the link to the v1.05 AAR. It looks as if the game was played in v1.07 times but was played on v1.05. You would have less manpower in v1.05 mostly due to the bug in the Quality DP sliders not having an effect on manpower. I have an overall 16% (1.45 divided by 1.25 = 1.16) more manpower than you did as a result. Plus I get more manpower from wrong culture provinces. I get 8.7 manpower reserve from Aztec Empire. Relevant to a strategy for Chimu's success, the following is a breakdown of pros and cons of v1.05 compared to v1.09 as best as I can recall.

    Pros of v1.05:
    Small nations could give as much as 2525d for peace compared to approximately 300d in v1.09.
    The AI would accept and repay high interest loans from a player.
    You could loan money to AI while at war, then they would return the money for peace.
    The maps of pagans could be captured with the fall of their capital.
    Map trades with nations would reveal colonizable lands.
    Only 700 population was needed for a colonial city compared to 1000 population in v1.09.
    You could have any number of sub-city colonies and still begin new colonies without penalty.
    Exceptional years gave -5% inflation compared to only -2% inflation for v1.09.
    Troop support costs when over the limit were much less.
    War exhaustion was not tied to manpower.
    War exhaustion dissipated immediately any time when not at war.
    There was much less chance of civil war.
    Rebels were easy to beat.
    Manufactory costs did not increase until the completion of the manufactory.

    Cons of v1.05:
    DoW without CB and having good relations was four badboy instead of two badboy in v1.09.
    The badboy limit was fixed and was lower than in a v1.09 game.
    There was half as much loot.
    There was half as much army support from traded grain.
    Bugged Quality DP slider had no effect on manpower.
    There was -2 manpower in wrong culture provinces instead of -1 as v1.09.
    High gold inflation was a big concern.
    There were lots of rebels.
    Stability costs for high serfdom were only reduced by 25% instead of 50% for v1.09.
    Stability costs were not reduced with FAAs being built.
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  18. #58
    Major Nebukadnezar's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by ws2_32
    Wow! Plague really is bad. I look at the randomevents.txt file and see -6 manpower for >80 and <200 provinces. It is as much as -12 manpower for >200 provinces. Ouch! All I can do is hope it doesn't hit where it hurts.
    Yes, this would be the most devasting event for you imo.
    Quote Originally Posted by ws2_32
    Okay province population is what is important. So I would like to get a manpower improving event in Zacatecas compared to a low population province. By the way, the wrong culture modifier to manpower was reduced to -1 manpower back in the 1.07 betas.
    Thanks for the information about -2->-1.

    Quote Originally Posted by ws2_32
    Well, I am not building FAAs. Stability investment is a waste of money. I may research straight to land tech 18 instead of spending time getting naval tech 10 after land tech 14. Most provinces are hopeless to become 20K population. So it really does not matter too much. I must colonize for 0.25 of manpower and hope it adds up to enough. I can get my support limit up with economic resources, grain production, and weapon manufactories. Building troops may cause a lot of war exhaustion. Maybe that is what I am in for.
    I didn't suggest building FAAs for investment but for increasing province growth. Maybe it's too late now (I posted this suggestion earlier and with a general purpose on mind) but after getting the provinces from the Incas you had a lot of provinces<5000. Send colonists until 5000 is reached starting with the provinces having the lowest population. Then build FAA just to increase province growth. Maybe even let the Incas keep Cuzco to keep the Cot around a bit longer.
    This should bring all of these provinces to 20K before you've finished WC and it would double your MP from provinces with your culture and more than double for provinces with wrong culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by ws2_32
    I tried using edit to make Navaho a vassal. There was no noticable help to manpower.
    Did you test it with centralization<max?
    You don't get additional MP when you're at max centra. Set your centra to 0 just for testing.

    (I'm not suggesting that these are the best things to do. They were just some ideas to improve one aspect)

  19. #59
    Field Marshal Isaac Brock's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by ws2_32
    Cons of v1.05:
    ...
    There were lots of rebels.
    Rebels would be higher tech than you as the game goes on. So not only 12 times more rebels, but rebel armies that outech their opponents. Being down a CRT on rebels used to be very painful.
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  20. #60
    General ws2_32's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebukadnezar
    I didn't suggest building FAAs for investment but for increasing province growth. Maybe it's too late now (I posted this suggestion earlier and with a general purpose on mind) but after getting the provinces from the Incas you had a lot of provinces<5000. Send colonists until 5000 is reached starting with the provinces having the lowest population. Then build FAA just to increase province growth. Maybe even let the Incas keep Cuzco to keep the Cot around a bit longer.
    This should bring all of these provinces to 20K before you've finished WC and it would double your MP from provinces with your culture and more than double for provinces with wrong culture.


    Did you test it with centralization<max?
    You don't get additional MP when you're at max centra. Set your centra to 0 just for testing.

    (I'm not suggesting that these are the best things to do. They were just some ideas to improve one aspect)
    Oh yeah sure, I understand. It is just that I would not build FAAs just for the province growth. I may need FAAs anyway as it turns out. Yes, helping to keep the CoT around a bit longer would be nice. I should have let Inca revolt in Titicaca sooner. Then I could just let them stay there because I would get more income considering they would have five merchants in the CoT. And they would get some manpower events.

    I didn't test with Centralization<max. I didn't know about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac Brock
    Rebels would be higher tech than you as the game goes on. So not only 12 times more rebels, but rebel armies that outech their opponents. Being down a CRT on rebels used to be very painful.
    No way. I would not be behind in tech to rebels. I will far out-tech Europeans if all goes well. Chimu has gold. Chimu is the richest nation in the world. Chimu can afford to pay five or six times the tech costs that Europeans pay. Well perhaps not if I need to build a lot of FAAs.
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