ENGLA LAND (1066): Discussions on Alternate History Mod

[SirWellington]

Just tried this mod out and I must say I am really, really impressed, Sarmatia1871

I like how England is laid out following the Victory of the Saxons over the Norman invaders, a great A-historical mod!
I'd rate this high if it were rateable.

Thanks for this great mod.
Any idea of when V2 is released? And if you want, I could dig up some info about 10th/11th c. England if you needed..
Send me a PM if you want some help, I can dig up some links for you!

Cheers,
SirWellington

[Sarmatia1871]

Thanks for reviving the thread!

I think the main useful info which would be needed are the names and details of any real Anglo-Saxon courtiers who'd be active within the various Earldoms, as I'm using a lot of placeholders at the moment. Dynasty names in Anglo-Saxon would be great as well.

I've also played a few games using this mod now, and a couple of issues which may be useful for feedback:

* What do people think about the almost immediate submission of the Northern Earldoms to England? Is this okay, or should they be made a bit more rebellious?
* Has anyone noticed the "English melting pot" events having an impact? I still haven't gone past about 1150...

[Finellach]

I believe we will probably have to what for an expert in Anglo-Saxon iconography and heraldry to turn up...

Or perhaps just make alternatives and anyone can use the CoA which (s)he likes the best.

[Calgacus]

There should be a Malcolm of Strathclyde in the court of Northumbria, with claims on the Duchies of Strathclyde and Galloway. 12 years before the scenario's start, the Earl of Northumbria at that time had engaged in a war to place Malcolm, King of the Cumbrians, back on the throne of the Kingdom of Stratchlyde. Since records are apparently unclear from this point whether that war was sucessful or not, Malcolm's continued presence in Northumbria might open avenues for a Northumbria player, without departing much from actual history.

If you were willing to go further, you could even create Strathclyde as a kingdom title covering Strathclyde, Carrick, Galloway, Cumberland, Westmoreland, and possibly Argyll, and thus provide another Kingdom title in the Isles to spice things up.

There is no evidence that the Kingdom of Strathclyde (of the Cumbrians) ever covered Galloway, Carrick or Argyll. Of these real Carrick (not CK Carrick) is possibly an exception, but the only argument for this is that in later times the bishopric of Glasgow had jurisdiction over Carrick .. but that was based on the politics of David's I's principality between 1113 and 1124 when the bishopric of Glasgow was given its boundaries.

@ Sarmatia1871 , the core province of the Kingdom of Alba (Scotland) was not Lothian, but Gowrie, that is, the southern part of CK Atholl encompassing Scone and Perth. Most of Lothian was probably not under direct Scottish control in this period. Edinburgh was not the "capital" of Scotland until the end of middle ages. This map may be of help:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ImageavidianCumbria.JPG

[Sarmatia1871]

@ Sarmatia1871 , the core province of the Kingdom of Alba (Scotland) was not Lothian, but Gowrie, that is, the southern part of CK Atholl encompassing Scone and Perth. Most of Lothian was probably not under direct Scottish control in this period. Edinburgh was not the "capital" of Scotland until the end of middle ages. This map may be of help:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ImageavidianCumbria.JPG

Many thanks - although I made absolutely no changes to Scotland from the vanilla 1066 scenario setup, so this is probably an error lingering in the pre-existing setup.

[verville70]

I never modded at all, but I'd like to try your scenario, could you give me the step by step, like your explaining it to a 5 year old way to install and run.

[Veldmaarschalk]

I never modded at all, but I'd like to try your scenario, could you give me the step by step, like your explaining it to a 5 year old way to install and run.

You don't need to mod it yourself if you want to play this modification

Just download the file into your Crusader kings main directory and then unzip it in that directory. The files will then be unzipped to the correct sub-directories

[verville70]

How do I load it into the correct file, and how do I unzip it? Told you I don't know much about this. But I'm willing to learn.

[Veldmaarschalk]

How do I load it into the correct file, and how do I unzip it? Told you I don't know much about this. But I'm willing to learn.

You must first click on one of the two links in the first post

Then you can choose to download the .zip file and you can choose the directory you want it to download in

The default directory for Crusader kings is

C:\Program Files\Paradox Entertainment\Crusader Kings

So download the file in that directory

The right click on the .zip file and choose the option 'unzip here'

In order to be able to unzip it you must have the program Winzip, that can be found on the web, just do a Google for Winzip software

[verville70]

Thanks Veld...Didn't have time last night but I'll figure it out.

[Arkerless]

This is a WONDERFUL idea for a mod, and as soon as VP get my version updated to 1.05 you can bet I'll be trying it out.

I do have a suggestion, if Harold won at Hastings, there should be a very real chance of him breaking with Rome and England becoming Orthodox, and if he does that, it should also be possible for much of the Isles to follow him. See for instance: http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Harold_of_England

This might make the alternate history aspect even stronger and more interesting

[Veldmaarschalk]

This is a WONDERFUL idea for a mod, and as soon as VP get my version updated to 1.05 you can bet I'll be trying it out.

I do have a suggestion, if Harold won at Hastings, there should be a very real chance of him breaking with Rome and England becoming Orthodox, and if he does that, it should also be possible for much of the Isles to follow him. See for instance: http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Harold_of_England

This might make the alternate history aspect even stronger and more interesting

The only effect from being an orthodox would be that you don't suffer from crusade expactations and you can't be excommunicated and you can't become Papal Controller

The Pope won't do anything against you, nor will other roman-catholic rulers treat you differently.

Orthodox aren't religious enemies and there are no events that can deal with a catholic-orthodox controversy.

So it would just be window-dressing

[Arkerless]

The only effect from being an orthodox would be that you don't suffer from crusade expactations and you can't be excommunicated and you can't become Papal Controller

Nice enough if that's how you want to play it

So it would just be window-dressing

Nonetheless, window-dressing can be very nice

Also, correct me if I'm mistaken, but doesn't it have some influence on relations, particularly on marriages?

Harold, demoralised by his excommunication and pontifical endorsement of William the Bastage, nonetheless straightens his back and goes into battle like the good Saxon warrior he is. So do his troops. And they manage to win. This becomes proof positiven, in the minds of the islanders at least, that the Popes expansive claims from the Schism on are nonsense. The Church in the Isles, remember, had basically ignored the entire affair, and in large part continued to ignore the Pope whenever it suited them as well. They were nominally Catholic, but more because their neighbors (Scandinavian, French, Dutch, and Spanish were their primary contacts) were than because the Pope had any particular pull with them. In practical terms it was much more an Orthodox church than a post-schism Catholic church. In 1052 the Pope went to the point of denouncing the Archbishop of England as a heretic, but to little effect. That only changed with the Norman conquest and the purge that followed.

In this time line, not only does that purge never happen, but the man bearing the Popes blessing invaded and was soundly defeated by the Godwinson, known as a rather pious fellow, well liked - and under excommunication at the time. The excommunication, the blessing of the invasion, the fact that (as it would have been framed at the time) God chose to grant him victory despite the Popes word on the matter, would all have eroded respect for the Pope in the isles greatly, and it was as I noted not at all high to begin with.

Harold, personally, could only have seen his victory as God repudiating the Pope as well. And it's hard to imagine the excommunication and the blessing on the Bastard's invasion not generating some ill-feeling as well. It's possible he would patch things up anyway, for purely pragmatic, political reasons. Certainly there is a likelihood that the Pope, with his champion sent fleeing in defeat, would have gone for that, and been willing to change course and make nice with Harold. But it's by no means certain *either* of them would have set aside the grudge developed so far. And if one or the other didn't... the English at the time had some ties with both Russian principalities and with the Eastern Empire. In fact, in our time line, many of the survivors of Harolds demesne wound up in the eastern Empire, and the north shore of the sea of Azores is littered with evidence of English settlements after 1066. It's also worth noting that Harold's daughter found refuge in Orthodox Russia, and she became an ancestor of Czars there.

So it seems quite natural that, in a timeline where Harold won, the ties with Rome would have been formally severed, and ties with the Orthodox world embraced instead...

[Veldmaarschalk]

I will have to do some reading about how serious this 'conversion' to orthodox supposedly was

But it sounds more to me that he, if it is true, should get the heretic trait. A trait which will have a serious effect on the game

[jordarkelf]

It wasn't a conversion to Orthodoxism!
It merely was that the Anglo-Saxon church had not come under Roman (Papal) influence before the Norman invasion, and as such it was still a pre-schism church.

The argument here is that if one defines Orthodoxism as that branch of the Church which rejected Roman (Papal) authority in 1054, Harold's alleged refusal to bow to Rome should put the A-S church in the Orthodox camp.

This is mistaken however: the schism as we know it today factually only dates to 1453, when the Turks destroyed Constantinople and murdered the christians living there. The Turks demanded that the surviving Byzantine christians refute Papal authority, instead accepting the authority of the Turkish-controlled Patriarch (the Turks sold the office to the highest bidder, and ended up deposing over 120 of them, and murdering six). When Ivan of Kiev declared himself as Czar not only over the Russias but also over the church, it was mostly done to rid himself of Ottoman influence.

Before the 1450s time the majority of the catholic and orthodox christians saw eachother as simply christians, albeit with minor differences (if they were even aware of it!). This "early schism" was more a political than a religious issue.

As such the schism more accurately dates only to the 1450s... or about 60 years before Protestantism.

Even the myth of the mutual excommunication of Pope and Patriarch has no basis in fact.

See ‘The Orthodox Church’ by (Ort.) Bishop Kallistos Ware and ‘The New Catholic Encyclopedia’ for references.

[Ayeshteni]

Sarmatia1871, another top-notch mod, well done.

A few things

1) You may wish to either
a) update this to the new patch to make use of the different duchy setup, or
b) provide the 'old' shields for those who have updated (assuming a seperate install for the mod) to put it in line with the old patch.

2) your marriages. I noticed I could remarry even though my current wife was still alive (As Harold of England) this was because your marriage deathdates are before the start of the scenario (there should be no deathdate for King Harold as he still lives)

3) A reworked dynasty list is necessary to get rid of those pesky Norman names in Britain.

Ayeshteni

[Arkerless]

I will have to do some reading about how serious this 'conversion' to orthodox supposedly was

But it sounds more to me that he, if it is true, should get the heretic trait. A trait which will have a serious effect on the game

There was no conversion. That's a hypothetical, but well rooted in fact.

The pre-norman english church was considered heretical by Rome, as I mentioned, it had gone to the point of a papal ban on the Archbishop as a heretic several years before, in 1052. The great schism with the eastern churches occurs in 1054, over broadly the same issues. The churches of the isles did not formally rebuke the papacy - but neither did they give any credence or obedience to his claims. They continued as an Orthodox church in fact, but attempted to avoid trouble by not declaring themselves against Rome openly. Basically they were hoping he would just leave them alone as long as they were polite and quiet. They were mistaken.

William rode with the Popes blessing, and Harold was excommunicated on the eve of the invasion. As soon as William was in control, he purged the Archbishop and most of the English clergy straight off. Had he lost, the Pope might have bitten the bullet, lifted the excommunication, and tried to play nice. And that *might* have worked. But the option to declare the Archbishopric an Orthodox Patriarchate was certainly there as well, and probably would have caused less unrest in the realm. It would have been particularly tempting if the Pope continued with his hard line after Williams defeat.

So, I don't know how the heretic trait works, but if there is a conversion, if you can rig something that makes the catholic world a bit upset with him over the conversion, that would be appropriate. Catholic and Orthodox seem to get along a bit too well in this game. But it's not a simple matter of heresy - a heretic is only a heretic if he's in a realm where it's heresy. In pre-norman England, it was not.

[Veldmaarschalk]

If Harold has to be orthodox, he can only be orthodox from the start of the scenario.

There is no eventtrigger for an independent ruler (king) to change his religion, there is only an event that lets you convert to the religion of your liege

EDIT
Have done some reading (Anglo-Saxon England by Sir Frank Stenton) about this subject

The excommunicated archbishop of Canterbury, Stigand, wasn't excommunicacted because of his religious believes. But because of political reasons, the former archbishop, Robert of Jumieges (a Norman) had been forced to flee on instignation of Earl Godwine (the father of Harold) because he was afraid of the Norman influence in the Anglo-saxon church. Stigand was made the archbishop, in Rome this was considered unlawfull and Stigand was summoned to come to Rome. He refused and was excommunicated because of that. Stigand was essentially a politician and the represetative English churchmen of his age considered him an archbishop in name only


Here is a quote from the book

'The Anglo-Saxon church has received hard measure from historian. To many writers it has seemed that its individuality meant indifference to the movements of ecclesiastical thought then coming to influence in the west. (...) Through modern history something of its real quality is slowly beginning to reappear. Much remains to be done, particularly in the analysis of the books which illustrate the Old English concept of Canon Law. But it can already be seen that there existed in pre-conquest England a church receptive towards foreign influences and united to the see of Rome by ancient tradition and present reverence.'

The book doesn't mention 'eastern-orthodox' believes at all

EDIT
Harold was also not excommunicated because of his believes but because he had taken the crown of England unlawfully, breaking a promise he made to William

[Arkerless]

If Harold has to be orthodox, he can only be orthodox from the start of the scenario.

There is no eventtrigger for an independent ruler (king) to change his religion, there is only an event that lets you convert to the religion of your liege

That does complicate matters a bit.

The excommunicated archbishop of Canterbury, Stigand, wasn't excommunicacted because of his religious believes. But because of political reasons, the former archbishop, Robert of Jumieges (a Norman) had been forced to flee on instignation of Earl Godwine (the father of Harold) because he was afraid of the Norman influence in the Anglo-saxon church. Stigand was made the archbishop, in Rome this was considered unlawfull and Stigand was summoned to come to Rome. He refused and was excommunicated because of that. Stigand was essentially a politician and the represetative English churchmen of his age considered him an archbishop in name only

As usual the story is quite complicated, so it's easy for an author to emphasise what he wants to, and you can get rather different accounts of the same events by different scholars. And as history is written by the victors, the dominant post-norman trend in England is certainly to minimise the distance between the English church and Rome. As the churches of the isles before the invasion were trying to avoid trouble by being quiet and low-profile, there's even a similar pattern before.

It was 'political' in a sense, yes, but it had as much to do with ecclesiastic politics as secular politics. Robert, also, was a political appointee, and was considered illegitimate by much of the church, you see. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_of_Jumieges mentions this, in that 'although the chapter had already made an election, Edward appointed him archbishop of Canterbury.' When Godwin came back from exile in 1052, no actual violence ensued, negotiations prevailed. But Robert didn't stick around long enough for that to happen, he 'dropped his pallium (symbol of office) and ran' and didn't stop running until he was back in Normandy. This turned Edward against him, and his office was held solely because of Edward to begin with. He was outlawed and told never to return.

The episode was useful as a pretext to William and particularly Pope Alexander, to manufacture a cassus belli without acknowledging the deeper issues driving them toward confrontation.

'The Anglo-Saxon church has received hard measure from historian. To many writers it has seemed that its individuality meant indifference to the movements of ecclesiastical thought then coming to influence in the west. (...) Through modern history something of its real quality is slowly beginning to reappear. Much remains to be done, particularly in the analysis of the books which illustrate the Old English concept of Canon Law. But it can already be seen that there existed in pre-conquest England a church receptive towards foreign influences and united to the see of Rome by ancient tradition and present reverence.'

Much of that is indisputed. There's a long traditional linkage between the churches in the isles and Rome, and a long history of being receptive to influences from all corners of Christendom. But the word "united" is loading the sentence. There were two different paradigms involved - Rome was claiming dominance over the church as a whole. The Eastern Churches had explicitly rejected that dominance, either by Rome or by any other Patriarchate. The churches of the isles were still caught in the middle, rejecting it in practice while being quiet and hoping the issue would just blow over. In the paradigm in the east, as well as pre-norman England, the churches were in communion, and a Bishopric as old and venerated as Rome was certainly to be held in high regard, but it had no right to dominate.

Harold was also not excommunicated because of his believes but because he had taken the crown of England unlawfully, breaking a promise he made to William

That was the pretext, certainly. Only William's word attested to it's veracity. The Pope didn't normally get involved in such disputes between noblemen, however. He did in this case because he had a big huge ulterior motive - control over the church in England.

Allow me to suggest a little further reading material here.

[Veldmaarschalk]

As Jordarelf also said, being 'anti Rome/Pope' doesn't make you 'orthodox'

Orthodox in the game stands for the eastern christian churches, and the reason they are different from catholic in the game and in in real life history isn't just because they were anti Pope