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Oh and so much more!

Warc said:
Least i have these sexy 3D graphics


Don't forget the sexy grunts and moans!

If nothing else, you could copy the .wav files to a different folder and then assign them to various Windows events. Just think... every time you close a window you could be hearing the sound that the male avatar makes that sounds like he just got a wooden post shoved up his @$$.
 
Well, this is too bad, but not surprising. I bought the game out of support for Paradox anyways. I was not going to have time to play it for another year.
 
heagarty said:
I have enjoyed working with all of you on this project. It did not exactly turn out as I had hoped, and as I said, I am dissapointed by the news.

As most of us are too.

Firstly, thank you Paradox for responding and answering the question "is Paradox listening?" like many others I saw the writing on the wall but I had held a glimmer of hope that Paradox wouldn't bail on the game.

Secondly, I'd like to thank the moderators for advocating on our behalf and for the tireless effort to keep the message board an enjoyable and civilized place.

cheers,
Matty
 
Well, frankly speaking, this is not a surprise at all. When the first page of game forums go back to threads 4 weeks old around release day, this is the first chime of the death bell already. It hasn't changed since then, it only got worse.

I had a couple of nice games with Diplomacy, but I wouldn't have spent 40 bucks on it if it wasn't a Paradox game. It simply isn't that much fun - in my opinion, of course. E.g. I never questioned my decision to buy Victoria, which I didn't play much either, but this was different with Diplomacy.
Maybe being "forced" (more or less) to register and the initial availability of patches to registered people only did its own to hold the game down. I can imagine the intentions behind this decision, but sadly enough this is not the way it is going to work, I think.
 
ForzaA said:
I may be sounding as a Paradox fanboy or a Atari hateboy* now.. but I think Atari (And Hasbro, but that's Atari property, I think) are the ones you should be looking at.

*Let's just say I have more "issues" with Atari...

I agree that ATARI probably have a part in all this, but then again, I was thinking that a contract is a "meeting of the minds", or it may be possible to argue (under law) that is was not a contract at all.
(Maybe this is not the case with US law?)

So, whatever Paradox agreed to and signed they should have known the limitations of that.

I was also wondering if there is a limitation on the rights to Diplomacy?
(Before it becomes 'public'?)
Maybe someone fimilar with US law knows?
 
Castellon said:
"Circumstances that are partly out of our control are preventing us from working further on Diplomacy ..."

I would pay close attention to this line.
It is not for me to discuss or elaborate further since Theo clearly chose not to, but I would give that sentence due consideration.
I would say though, that those are Circumstances that are not present in the upcoming releases of either Hoi2:DD or EU3.

And with that I have probably already said too much. So I will shut up now.

By the sounds of how the Diplomacy Beta testing went, these 'circumstances' have been influencing the creation of this game from the onset.
 
czar1111 said:
I was also wondering if there is a limitation on the rights to Diplomacy?
(Before it becomes 'public'?)
Maybe someone fimilar with US law knows?
AFAIK, Diplomacy was originally copyrighted in the US by Allan Calhamer in the 1950s (it was first published in 1959) and is thus still under copyright protection. The rights to the game were owned for a long time by Avalon Hill and passed to Hasbro when it purchased the former company (although the rights in the United Kingdom are apparently owned by a different company).
 
copyright

The rules for Diplomacy were slightly changed in each of the publications of the game including at the last printing the Hasbro board game version in 1999 released in Jan 2000.

I am not a lawyer on copyrights but as far as I know Diplomacy has never passed into the public domain.
 
Edi said:
The rules for Diplomacy were slightly changed in each of the publications of the game including at the last printing the Hasbro board game version in 1999 released in Jan 2000.

I am not a lawyer on copyrights but as far as I know Diplomacy has never passed into the public domain.
I am under the vague notion that typical copyright law in the US confers something like 70+ years...
 
State Machine said:
I am under the vague notion that typical copyright law in the US confers something like 70+ years...
Close. Life of the author + 70 years for works created after Jan 1, 1978 (except works for hire, which are 95 years from publication or 120 from creation, whichever comes first). For works (like Diplomacy) created before 1978, assume 95 years if the author renewed the copyright in the 28th year (which presumably was done, or you'd have heard about it by now). See the U. S. Copyright Office FAQ.

The Life + 70 term is also the one used in the UK and most of the EU, based on the Directive 93/98/EEC of 29 October 1993 harmonizing the term of protection of copyright and certain related rights. The Berne Convention, to which most of the world is a party, only requires life + 50.
 
I think the major problem of this game was (and I speak in past tense because this incarnation of game is history) that too much effort was put in the UI.
This game never was or will be about UI, about animation, about avatars.
Not only the UI was poorly done, I feel as if it left no room for the development of the core elements of the game.
I can hardly say Paradox are a bunch of amateurs, but I think they totally missed the spirit of the game of Diplomacy…
 
I don't know about too much effort being put into the UI. It's just that not enough effort was put into other facets of the game, and the game is much too hard to modify for the production of variants. Whether this is due to the relationships or obligations of Paradox to Atari/Hasbro, or for economic reasons is immaterial.

The typical Diplomacy player (or person who would like Diplomacy, if they had the opportunity to start playing) is not the typical member of the pgeneral public, or even a typical gamer, and, unfortunately, I agree that Paradox just did not capture/interest this market with the product they delivered.



P.S. I am an attorney in New York (though not a copyright attorney). Diplomacy will not be in the public domain for quite some time.

P.P.S. Mr. Calhamer, the creator of the game, is alive and well, as far as I know, though I have not communicated with him in a while.
 
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David E. Cohen said:
The typical Diplomacy player (or person who would like Diplomacy, if they had the opportunity to start playing) is not the typical member of the pgeneral public, or even a typical gamer, and, unfortunately, I agree that Paradox just did not capture/interest this market with the product they delivered.

I think a lot of people would play this game if the delivered product was good. Paradox's other games like EUII have a huge following of non-typical more mature gamers.

I know dip players like to think of themselves as unique cult individuals. But I think if you take a step back, you would see the game is actually quite attractive, playable and accessable to the general public. Easy to learn difficult to master. Much more so than EUII and other Paradox games that are 'extremely' complicated for the general public in comparison.

No, I would say the game is fine for the general public, (I mean really, it was a popular board game), it is the implemenation that has fallen on its face. This game needed AIAIAIAI and PBEM (or equivalent).

Maybe this is a 8-10 year trick, to make a bit of cash for Hasbro. No-one actually really cares for a success, just a business decision.

Jason
 
Wow...i am really glad i didn't buy it on release and kept on reading. I was going to buy it in the bargain bin but now i'll pass. Diplomacy (i've played the board game many many times) will remain the black sheep in Paradox history (and the only game i do not own). Look forward to buy Doomsday and EUIII.

Cheers.
 
Well, well, what a finely crafted statement.

I think the major points have been already borne out: essentially, we've all lost some money, and Paradox is blaming it on someone else.

I find it somewhat odd that Paradox cannot reveal why Dip will no longer be supported. Can big, bad Atari censor its vendors?

To me it just seems an excuse to distance themselves from this embarrassing project.

I still can't fathom how the grunting avatars got through playtesting. "Yeah, that's real cool, I can tell by his grunt and wink that we're going to form an alliance next turn and move in to attack Belgium."

As an aside, I still look back fondly on that first, pre-1.03 patch, attempt to play Dip MP. The experience was so painstaking and long that it'll be forever emblazoned on my mind!
 
SirGrotius said:
Well, well, what a finely crafted statement.

I think the major points have been already borne out: essentially, we've all lost some money, and Paradox is blaming it on someone else.

I find it somewhat odd that Paradox cannot reveal why Dip will no longer be supported. Can big, bad Atari censor its vendors?

To me it just seems an excuse to distance themselves from this embarrassing project.
While it leaves us in the dark, it is bad form for a company to bitch about business partners in public.
 
Stretch33 said:
I know dip players like to think of themselves as unique cult individuals. But I think if you take a step back, you would see the game is actually quite attractive, playable and accessable to the general public. Easy to learn difficult to master. Much more so than EUII and other Paradox games that are 'extremely' complicated for the general public in comparison.

No, I would say the game is fine for the general public, (I mean really, it was a popular board game), it is the implemenation that has fallen on its face. This game needed AIAIAIAI and PBEM (or equivalent).

Not unique, but Dip is definitely not for everyone. The gripes include the necessity to lie to people, the fact that it takes a long time to play, and the need to collect 7 players. And no, it has not been especially popular as a board game. Dip is almost 50 years old, but most people in the general public haven't even heard of it. Compare that to other, truly popular, board games (Monopoly, Clue, even Settlers of Cataan, which is much newer.

Note, by the way, that 'popular' doesn't mean 'good'. Dip, after all, *is* the best board game ever invented.
 
David E. Cohen said:
Not unique, but Dip is definitely not for everyone. The gripes include the necessity to lie to people, the fact that it takes a long time to play, and the need to collect 7 players. And no, it has not been especially popular as a board game. Dip is almost 50 years old, but most people in the general public haven't even heard of it. Compare that to other, truly popular, board games (Monopoly, Clue, even Settlers of Cataan, which is much newer.

Note, by the way, that 'popular' doesn't mean 'good'. Dip, after all, *is* the best board game ever invented.

I think all of your stated reasons is exactly why Diplomacy 'needs' to be made as a good computer game.

Necessity to lie:
This is not difficult to do to an AI.
It is easier to lie to a stranger over cyberspace than FTF or friends.

It takes a long time to play:
Definetly good for computer play, as you have the ability to save games when playing only with the AI. PBEM has solved much of this with longer-term games.

Difficulty in finding 7 players:
Well the internet would be the best way to locate 7 people and play a game.

Your points are bang on as to why this game is not taking off. These are all the things that Paradox should have focussed on. If they had it would have been a success. This game works much better in the computer environment and would be more accessible to the general public if done right.

Better AI
PBEM - long term games
Joining games in progress
....

I would have liked to been a fly on the wall listening when the decision was made.. "what this game really needs is grunting avatars, then it will sell"

oh well, maybe in 10 years, someone will get it right.

Jason
 
Oh well...lesson learned. Be careful about pre ordering games in the future and take the pre-game hype press releases with a grain of Swedish salt.

Question...is the Metaserver still going to be active (not that there's been anyone there since January).

You know the only function missing from this game was a PBEM option. With a PBEM option seven of us could just get together and have some fun. I know PBEM can be played without the game, but it would have been preferable to DipJudge, and you don't need a GM.

It was fun while it lasted. I had a few enjoyable games, and we've all enjoyed getting spanked by Edi. At least I've learned a few things from him.

So....who's up for an old fashioned Paradox PBEM game? Czar? State? Heag?