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Thread: Vatican City Expansion!

  1. #21
    Major Passivocalia's Avatar

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    Feel free! Just don't put their ghost province adjacent to anything, and they won't be able to be invaded.
    Passivocalia (Paternal Autocrat)

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    Vaticanize me, Cap'n! Add the Holy See to your Hearts of Iron!
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  2. #22
    There are FOUR LIGHTS! AllThat4Nothing's Avatar
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    that whole "protestant reichbishop" is really casting protestants in a bad light...

    also Hitler was against organized religion in any form, Catholic, Protestant, or otherwise. He tried to censor Protestant German organizations just as much as he did German Catholic. Hitler believed the religion of German should be very neo-pagan, and uniquely German. I do not think Hitler would ever have condoned the reestablishment of the Papal States nor would he if given the opportunity to decide, would he allow the Papacy to exist as we know it. With so many Catholics in the world, the Pope would be a force to reckon with on the international and moral scene if he so chose to be in oppostion to Hitler.

  3. #23
    The Vatican City State mod is an excellent addition to the game! Cheers, Passivocalia!

    By the way, I wasn't aware of the existence of the Christian Paradox Players' Club!

  4. #24
    Major Passivocalia's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllThat4Nothing
    that whole "protestant reichbishop" is really casting protestants in a bad light...

    also Hitler was against organized religion in any form, Catholic, Protestant, or otherwise. He tried to censor Protestant German organizations just as much as he did German Catholic. Hitler believed the religion of German should be very neo-pagan, and uniquely German. I do not think Hitler would ever have condoned the reestablishment of the Papal States nor would he if given the opportunity to decide, would he allow the Papacy to exist as we know it. With so many Catholics in the world, the Pope would be a force to reckon with on the international and moral scene if he so chose to be in oppostion to Hitler.
    Absolutely. Hitler was against all kinds of organized religions; I realize that completely. I certainly didn't include it simply to cast real Lutherans or other Protestants in a bad light, any more than I added the fascist "Julius IV" to cast Catholics in a bad light.

    And no, Hitler probably wouldn't have gone to the trouble to reestablish the Papal States, and the A.I. will never seek it out. If the German A.I. kidnaps the pope, it won't liberate the Holy See with the Reichbishop.

    It's all just something that the player has the option of making happen, as unlikely as it is. Ludwig Müller was the Nazi Protestant Reichbishop, though. And yes, at least according to this wikipedia article, the Protestant churches were offended that he was appointed to that position. So, just keep in mind that any German puppetized "Protestant" Vatican would have to be immersed in Nazi neopaganism, not tenets of Christian scripture or the Reformation.

    I mean, the modification does terrible justice to Theodor Innitzer, who in 1938 had his residence attacked by Nazis for saying, "There is just one Führer: Jesus Christ". It's just something different for players to do, without meaning offense to the actual actions and people of real history.
    Passivocalia (Paternal Autocrat)

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    Vaticanize me, Cap'n! Add the Holy See to your Hearts of Iron!
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  5. #25
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    Understood, and after all it's only a game scenario in a game where you can make numerous choices that do not have to do with anything at all with reality so I see your point. And I must admit it's incredably interesting! Very clever idea! Hope you have much success with it.

  6. #26
    Major von_Ysselstein's Avatar

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    Could someone post a screenie with the Vatican City and the Swiss Guard in it? I added the ghost province but its really invisible, shouldnt be the guards placed anywhere on the map or something? And what about the exile poles in London, couldnt find a thread for this, has someone a link? And the link for Soleils ghost province thread whatever this may be... just curious
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  7. #27
    Major Passivocalia's Avatar

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    I know this comment's about three years old, and my account being present here is even older... but there really isn't any way for you to see units in the ghost provinces, that I know of. They are there, but they won't be visible on the screen unless they reenter "real" territory.
    Passivocalia (Paternal Autocrat)

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    "Let love be sincere; hate what is evil, hold on to what is good"
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    Vaticanize me, Cap'n! Add the Holy See to your Hearts of Iron!
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    Calling in the Old Guard - an Austrian MusicalAAR (ongoing)

  8. #28
    Rule Britannia Gigalocus's Avatar
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    your making it seem the fascist were highly agaisnt the Vatican, they weren't, infact, the vactican city exists soly becuase of fascism, it didnt exsist (papl states ended when italy began) until Benito created it, they wouldn't annex it, he created it to make himself popular with the catholics, AND Germany/ Austria were very catholic. So, they wouldn't destroy it

  9. #29
    Jehanne's Slave Ayeshteni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gigalocus
    your making it seem the fascist were highly agaisnt the Vatican, they weren't, infact, the vactican city exists soly becuase of fascism, it didnt exsist (papl states ended when italy began) until Benito created it, they wouldn't annex it, he created it to make himself popular with the catholics, AND Germany/ Austria were very catholic. So, they wouldn't destroy it
    Not sure I agree with this. Yes the Vatican supported the Fascists in Italy (and later Germany) but while the Papal States ended in the late 19th Century, the Vatican City was still 'Independent'.

    Germany Catholic? They are mostly Lutheran and the NASDAP tried to ban Christianity (certainly curtailed it).

    Ayeshteni
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  10. #30
    Major Passivocalia's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gigalocus
    your making it seem the fascist were highly agaisnt the Vatican, they weren't, infact, the vactican city exists soly becuase of fascism, it didnt exsist (papl states ended when italy began) until Benito created it, they wouldn't annex it, he created it to make himself popular with the catholics, AND Germany/ Austria were very catholic. So, they wouldn't destroy it
    My avatar reveals that I'm just a wee biased, but bear with me. Both of you are kind of right, yes and no. I've read both John Cornwell's Hitler's Pope and Rabbi David G. Dalin's The Myth of Hitler's Pope. A lot of Germans were Catholic, specifically in Bavaria and anschlussed Austria. There were also a considerable number of Lutherans and others. But that doesn't mean it was inconceivable for Mussolini or Hitler to act against the Vatican. Cornwell writes of an aborted plan Hitler had to kidnap the pope after Italy was being invaded (one of the events I made). Besides, unless I messed up the event files, they usually WON'T annex the Vatican.

    [RAMBLE] When Rome became part of the unified Italy in 1870, the popes basically never left Vatican City; the Vatican failed to recognize Italy, and Italy failed to recognize the Vatican (but didn't drive them out). It was just one of those things that hadn't been resolved yet, just as even today China and "Taiwan" don't have a peace treaty between them. The Lateran Treaty ended this in 1929, recognizing the Holy See while establishing the rights and regulating the powers of Catholics in Italy--and, yes, making Catholicism the official religion of the country. No doubt Mussolini wanted Catholics to like him. Whether you see this as the Vatican existing because of fascism or as a natural follow-through of the "don't kick the Vatican out" precedent set long before fascism existed, is up to you.

    The Vatican then signed a concordat with Hiter's Germany in 1933, which many saw as legitimizing the regime, even if the Vatican said that the agreement meant no such thing. Cornwell himself asserts that the Vatican was aimed at protecting Catholic rights and lives, while Hitler had his own goals. Regardless, Hitler didn't exactly feel bound to the concordat, and he generally violated whomever's rights he pleased. There's something about that guy and breaking treaties, I think.

    And things weren't entirely smooth between the Vatican and the Nazis/fascists. In 1937, Pius XI (the older one) released an encyclical called "Mit brennender Sorge" ("With Deepest Anxiety"), which basically condemned Nazi teachings on race and nation supremacy. It was released in German, which is rare; almost all encyclicals are released in Latin. It was passed along in secret until German priests and bishops could read it on the release date. It was released in Pius XI's pontificate, but the future Pius XII wrote a good bit of it. Of course, the future Pius XII also worked on the earlier concordat with Germany.

    Pius XII, who was pope during the war, would abstractly mention disapproval at fascist actions during the war, but it was always abstract and mired in generic preaching about more commonplace things. This is the main reason why critics believe he didn't do enough to oppose Nazism/fascism. Cornwell's biggest argument about the Pius XII wasn't that he was collaborating with Germany; his argument was that he did not do more to rally Catholics around the world (and in Germany specifically) to overthrow the Nazi regime. He did, however, work to hide several Jews within Vatican property, including filling his vacation residence with such refugees. Those who defend Pius XII say that instigating the fascists further would have sacrificed those Jews he had been able to help; those who criticise him say that he could have saved far more by sticking his neck out more. It is notable that neither Pope ever met with Hitler, always managing to be out of town when he came to Rome. The cover image to Hitler's Pope is a picture of Pius XII back when he was Cardinal Pacelli, walking out of a meeting with the WEIMAR German government. [/RAMBLE]

    Anyway... the events systems probably do reflect my biases in certain areas. It’s been a while since I made them, and I think they were rushed... I know I should look over the "Recognition of Franco" one. It's difficult because Pius XI wasn't too fond of the Nationalists, while Franco grew on Pius XII over time. Of course, when you read the event text that Paradox gives us for "Spanish Civil War", it's hard to think of the Republican forces as much better.

    If the events seem too slanted to you, you can ignore them—they don’t really contribute much to the game other than flavor. Or change parts of them for accuracy, and you can post them here. :-)
    Passivocalia (Paternal Autocrat)

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    "Let love be sincere; hate what is evil, hold on to what is good"
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    Vaticanize me, Cap'n! Add the Holy See to your Hearts of Iron!
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  11. #31
    Jehanne's Slave Ayeshteni's Avatar
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    Hmm, may see about integrating a modified Vatican into my mod.

    Is that OK with you Passivocalia?

    Ayeshteni
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ayeshteni
    Not sure I agree with this. Yes the Vatican supported the Fascists in Italy (and later Germany) but while the Papal States ended in the late 19th Century, the Vatican City was still 'Independent'.

    Germany Catholic? They are mostly Lutheran and the NASDAP tried to ban Christianity (certainly curtailed it).

    Ayeshteni
    hmm, thats odd, infact, i was just doing my History corse work, about why there was a lack of oppostion to the Nazi regime, and whiling reading some reliable sources, the only real oppostion the NAzis had (exept the allies/Soviets, inside Germany i meen) was the catholic church, infact, when Germany introduced some policies, the church argued against them, and they backed down. Also, why would germany ban Christinaity? thats insanity!

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passivocalia
    I know I should look over the "Recognition of Franco" one. It's difficult because Pius XI wasn't too fond of the Nationalists, while Franco grew on Pius XII over time.
    That's putting it mildly. I almost cringe every time I read the text of Pius' congratulatory message to Franco. Victory of Catholic Spain indeed
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  14. #34
    Hey, i can't seem to download the file from rapidshare, it says that the file doesn't exist. Anyone has an alternative download link?

    thanks!

  15. #35
    ....ooo...


    I would like to thank you for giving me the ability to crush the catholic "Base of power" as it were...>.>....for now, after I beat Mussolini into a bloody pulp, I can go straight through and conquer them...


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  16. #36
    Major Passivocalia's Avatar

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    Again, any person is welcome to chop this up and use whatever parts they desire. As far as how to make the download file work, I have no idea. It's easy enough to take the bits and pieces, pasting them where desirable. A lot of people may just want use the basic country information and leave out all events except the minister changes. If anyone introduces additional events or more accurate edits to existing ones, I'll go ahead and edit them into the first post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nietzsche
    ....ooo...


    I would like to thank you for giving me the ability to crush the catholic "Base of power" as it were...>.>....for now, after I beat Mussolini into a bloody pulp, I can go straight through and conquer them...


    <.<...Viva' le Birth Control and Religious Tolerance!
    That's not exactly the epitome of religious tolerance ... but no problem. You can't really make a secular puppet with what I have there right now; the most left-leaning administration is the Social Democrat John XXIII.

    But speaking of Leftism, it also needs more events for Cold War actions against the Soviets. Heh heh...




    ***
    country=SOV

    "The pope has condemned our political system!"

    OPTION A: "The Pope? How many divisions has he got?"
    ***



    Maybe an event for Soviet-sponsored assassination?
    Passivocalia (Paternal Autocrat)

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    "Let love be sincere; hate what is evil, hold on to what is good"
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    Vaticanize me, Cap'n! Add the Holy See to your Hearts of Iron!
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  17. #37
    WE WILL BURY THEM!


    ;D



    <.<...how powerful can this little Vatican-state-thingie get?
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  18. #38
    Major Passivocalia's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nietzsche
    WE WILL BURY THEM!


    ;D



    <.<...how powerful can this little Vatican-state-thingie get?
    Ahem. In this version? Not at all. As it should be. They have no IC, no manpower, no resources, no strategic value. No reason for them to be invaded, except for the sake of wonderful OCD completeness. Keep in mind what we're talking about here; Vatican City can only be a country because Italy allows them to be, both then and now. I'm pretty sure Italy even supplies things like their electricity.

    Even if you fire the events to restore Papal States, they don't have much going for them. It is purely flavor.
    Passivocalia (Paternal Autocrat)

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    "Let love be sincere; hate what is evil, hold on to what is good"
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    Vaticanize me, Cap'n! Add the Holy See to your Hearts of Iron!
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    Calling in the Old Guard - an Austrian MusicalAAR (ongoing)

  19. #39
    Can you make any screenshots, please?

    I would like seeing (and I don't say "reading") the changements, which are done by the mod.

    Thx in advance

  20. #40
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    It could be funny to have a microstates mod

    PROV2602 - San Marino
    PROV2603 - Vatican City
    PROV2604 - Monaco
    PROV2605 - Vaduz
    PROV2606 - Andorra la Vella
    PROV2607 - Danzig (the old Danzig province become Danzig Corridor)
    PROV2608 - Trieste

    Uxx - Saar
    Uxx - Trieste
    Uxx - Danzig
    Uxx - Andorra
    Uxx - Liechenstein
    Uxx - Monaco
    Uxx - San Marino
    Uxx - Vatican
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