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El Pip said:
trekaddict
Jape - I think the right wing slant is inevitable, I'm aware of it and have been trying to avoid being too blatant in the last few updates. If it's still to strong for you now them I'm afraid you must accept it's going to get any better.

Bah, as long as you don't turn blind to Winnie's faults.

Would you say Attlee was a terrible PM for his managing the transition to a peace economy BTW ?

It seems he was left holding the bag when Churchill left : an economy that needed to be readjusted to peacetime levels, and of course the liquidation of the Empire - which seem an unavoidable consequence of Britain's heroic efforts of WW2 anyway.

I'd be curious to know your opinion, as leader of the First Winniecan Church of England ! ;)
 
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Atlantic Friend said:
Bah, as long as you don't turn blind to Winnie's faults.

Would you say Attlee was a terrible PM for his managing the transition to a peace economy BTW ?

It seems he was left holding the bag when Churchill left : an economy that needed to be readjusted to peacetime levels, and of course the liquidation of the Empire - which seem an unavoidable consequence of Britain's heroic efforts of WW2 anyway.

I'd be curious to know your opinion, as leader of the First Winniecan Church of England ! ;)


We don't turn a bind eye to his faults, we just tend to worship him for what he did right. :D
 
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El Pip said:
It has dragged a bit I do confess, but it was interesting to do. And enjoying it is one of the main reasons I do this, though of course it is important that someone actually reads it. :)

I think at this point you could spam a whole post and people will come back asking what the next update will be about.
 
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Vann the Red - You may be pleased to know I recently acquired a pair of interesting books on jet engines and the Fleet Air Arm, containg some information I am now determined to wangle into the next (very long overdue) tech update.

Regardless, it's always good to see you back Ruddy. :D

Nathan Madien - A mixed bag indeed. But then no person, let alone politician is perfect, so a mixed bag is perhaps the best one can hope for. Which neatly brings me on to;

Atlantic Friend - The faults of Churchill. Where to begin really, for he far from faultless. Sometimes so far away from faultless he couldn't even see it. ;)

Starting in the Great War, Gallipoli obviously (though I'd argue it was more badly executed and under-resourced than actually a bad idea, still his fault though), implementing the Ten Year Rule in 1919 (which those with long memories for small details may remembered was noted in this very AAR) and the continued intervention in the Russian Civil War (too small to do any good, just large enough to annoy the Soviets and get too many Tommies killed)

Moving onto inter-war you'd have to highlight his tenure as Chancellor, including the quite epically wrong decision to take Britain back onto the Gold Standard, a decision so wrong it could well be used as some form of international benchmark for incorrectness.

Finally his war record, you'd have to at least question the Greek Campaign (or put it down as a stupid idea that extended the North African Campaign by months and saw Crete needlessly lost) and wonder why Bomber Command got all the long range bombers when transferring even a few squadrons worth to Coastal Command would have turned the Battle of the Atlantic. And that's just off the top of my head.

Yet for all that his achievements were immensely valuable, so he ends up considerably in credit despite it all. That said he was best used by putting in a case marked "Break in case of War", possibly with the label beneath "And force him to listen to the General Staff occasionally". His biggest failure as a PM, both times actually, was that domestic policy just didn't interest him and he regularly made big mistakes and got badly out of touch, such as over Edward VII's abdication. Which attentive readers will note is what caused his downfall in this AAR. :D

Moving on to Attlee, I am utterly incapable of forgiving him for a variety of reasons;
1. British Rail.
2. Giving the Rolls Royce Nene (the most advanced jet engine in the world, as used by the RAF and USAF in various forms until the late 1950s) to the Soviets. Who promptly copied it and used it in the MiG-15 to shoot down Allied pilots over Korea. There's blood on his hands over that if nothing else.
3. British Rail.
4. Not shooting Cripps, not only for #2 above, but just for the fact he actually enjoyed imposing the harsh post-war rations. He genuinely liked imposing what the country could or couldn't buy and eat, because he believed he knew better than anyone else.
5. African policy. Just look up the Tanzanian ground nut scheme for proof.
6. British Coal. It hurts my miners soul what happened there. *sob*
7. British Rail. Unless you travelled on it you can never know the horror of BR. So inept they had trouble making toast. (Literally actually, apparently the on-train toasters on the Inter-city trains never worked properly :) )

Of course he was dealt a very rough hand and it was never going to be pleasant post-War. He did a great deal of good work on social reform, the NHS and much else. But the nationalisations left a terrible legacy and one a miner/railway nut cannot forgive him for.
 
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El Pip said:
Moving on to Attlee, I am utterly incapable of forgiving him for a variety of reasons;
1. British Rail.
2. Giving the Rolls Royce Nene (the most advanced jet engine in the world, as used by the RAF and USAF in various forms until the late 1950s) to the Soviets. Who promptly copied it and used it in the MiG-15 to shoot down Allied pilots over Korea. There's blood on his hands over that if nothing else.
3. British Rail.
4. Not shooting Cripps, not only for #2 above, but just for the fact he actually enjoyed imposing the harsh post-war rations. He genuinely liked imposing what the country could or couldn't buy and eat, because he believed he knew better than anyone else.
5. African policy. Just look up the Tanzanian ground nut scheme for proof.
6. British Coal. It hurts my miners soul what happened there. *sob*
7. British Rail. Unless you travelled on it you can never know the horror of BR. So inept they had trouble making toast. (Literally actually, apparently the on-train toasters on the Inter-city trains never worked properly :) )

Of course he was dealt a very rough hand and it was never going to be pleasant post-War. He did a great deal of good work on social reform, the NHS and much else. But the nationalisations left a terrible legacy and one a miner/railway nut cannot forgive him for.


Full agreement.

EDIT: This was also the reason why I gave Winston a more or less capable Home Secretary, so that some of his bigger mistakes are avoided or at least curbed and he can concentrate on winning the war.
 
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trekaddict said:
We don't turn a bind eye to his faults, we just tend to worship him for what he did right. :D
I should have just posted that answer, far punchier. :D

C&D - One more to go. Then the US Primary update. Then carriers, bombers and tanks back in Britain!
 
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As for British Rail: You might find it unbelievable and utterly bonkers, but many in Germany, yours truely included want the old, non-profit oriented Bundesbahn back, for the simple reasons that a) the trains were on time b) they didn't kick nine year olds off the train in the middle of nowhere if they forgot their ticket but offered proof of ownership, c) they didn't cut half of the local routes every three months, d) the trains didn't fall apart every three hours. e) the trains were on time, and lastly f) the trains were on time.
 
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I don't think British Rail ever managed to get the trains on time... there are Giles cartoons stretching back into the 50's which lament the tardiness of British Rail.

*fades back into the lurking, and continues to slowly read through the thread.*
 
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El Pip said:
7. British Rail. Unless you travelled on it you can never know the horror of BR. So inept they had trouble making toast. (Literally actually, apparently the on-train toasters on the Inter-city trains never worked properly :) )

Tell me about it. I heard that when British Rail hired Dutch railway specialists to improve things, they were extremely pleased with the job. This is proof beyond doubt the British Rails was in a terrible condition at the time if the Dutch Railways could make improvements! There's a lot that Dutch people will do on time, but infrastructure is certainly not one of them.
 
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C&D said:
Tell me about it. I heard that when British Rail hired Dutch railway specialists to improve things, they were extremely pleased with the job. This is proof beyond doubt the British Rails was in a terrible condition at the time if the Dutch Railways could make improvements! There's a lot that Dutch people will do on time, but infrastructure is certainly not one of them.


Well, the German railways are now like British Rail. They used to be better. Oh the idiocy of the 1990s privatization wave! Note that our railways aren't actually private-owned yet, but run as such.
 
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trekaddict said:
Well, the German railways are now like British Rail. They used to be better. Oh the idiocy of the 1990s privatization wave! Note that our railways aren't actually private-owned yet, but run as such.

I had no idea British railroads were so bad and German railroads were so good. :eek:

Any way to make them better?
 
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What is it with you people, always with the trains! :confused:
 
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Trains, Mines, South Americans... Zzzz*Huh?*

- Did somebody say Jet engines? Carriers? Bombers? ...Winnie? :cool:

Chocks away, and waiting eagerly to bounce 'Winkle' of the Fleet Air Arm for the priviledge of checking out the RAF research & production queues first!

Go Pip, turn Churchill loose on those moribund aircraft design chappies - eg the Fairey Battle, obsolete as designed, (and since we're at it, how about shooting each and every last Brit tank designer, and buying a prototype or two from the USSR?) :rofl:

Orbiting at Angels One Five, keenly waiting...
 
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I think the key problem with Railways the world over is that passenger services lose money, something government's occasionally make attempts to fix but only the Japanese appear to have fixed (to my knowledge).

The Japanese solution being complete and utter privatisation and a regulator to make sure they don't abuse the monopoly position. Now Japan is probably ideal for passenger railways due to the high population density on the coasts (all those mountains don't need trains and don't have people) so it may or may not work elsewhere.

Contrast with the Indian approach where the highly profitable freight and inter-city routes subsidise everything else and just about make a net profit. But again somewhat unusual as the revenue of Indian Railways is higher than the income tax take of the Indian government! Plus of course the low number of cars on the road make it not much of a model for anyone else.

I would say the problem is halfway houses, either a nationalised social service or a cut down, fully privatised beasty. Not a part privatised mess or attempting to make a state owned railway turn a profit (or even break even).

Anyway having annoyed Durry enough I'll move on.

RAFspeak - Churchill has ideas and will soon be meeting an interesting chap from a firm called PowerJets... However there are also some chaps at the RAE with a few things to say on the matter.

As to tanks, my plan instead is just to tell the tank designers to jump to the end and start making the Cromwell, Comet and Centurion straight off. :D

What was needed to produce those beauties was a proper idea of what tanks are for and supposed to do on the modern battlefield, Britain didn't really formally sort that out quite late on, there wasn't even a single British Armoured Division until mid-1938.

Luckily that wont be a problem this time round, there is experience from North Africa and the Spanish Civil War to call on and an Experimental Mechanised Force (armoured division) formed up to try them out with. :D
 
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RAFspeak said:
(and since we're at it, how about shooting each and every last Brit tank designer, and buying a prototype or two from the USSR?) :rofl:

Orbiting at Angels One Five, keenly waiting...


Only the early ones. Tha later British Tank designs were actually quite nice, the Cromwell for example was a rather good vehicle, it only arrived much too late. Same goes for the Comet and the Conqueror immediately after the war.
 
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A tech update? Really? I shall commence salivating now. For the sake of my keyboard, please deliver said tech update directly.

Vann
 
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Duritz said:
What is it with you people, always with the trains! :confused:
Once you get the rail, you never go back. :cool:

Not a part privatised mess or attempting to make a state owned railway turn a profit (or even break even).
*Queensland Rail ~ Government owned highly profitably corporation* hint hint**

Also in general, some of the Arab states seem to have got the "government owned corporation" idea right, in a very successful way as well. :)
 
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Sir Humphrey said:
Once you get the rail, you never go back. :cool:

I get the rail to work daily... and back. So there goes your theory! :D

Hmm, tech update. Now that's more like it!
 
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El Pip said:
As to tanks, my plan instead is just to tell the tank designers to jump to the end and start making the Cromwell, Comet and Centurion straight off. :D

Talk about literally jumping the gun. :p

That's a bold plan you have, telling tank designers to make a blind leap forward without a beginning to start on.
 
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