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Thread: The Butterfly Effect: A British AAR

  1. #2181
    Field Marshal Vann the Red's Avatar
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    This thread never fails to entertain and elucidate. Thanks, all.

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  2. #2182
    Field Marshal Nathan Madien's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duritz View Post
    As a general rule the British didn't want Australia developing industries that they hoped to dominate. It's the whole give a man a fish arguement, except Britain had a vested interest in making sure we didn't learn how to fish.
    It seems silly to me that the British don't seem to want Australia to learn how to defend herself. If the Australians can build planes for protection, I say let them. Besides, what's wrong with having Australian planes help defend Asia?
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  3. #2183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Madien
    It seems silly to me that the British don't seem to want Australia to learn how to defend herself. If the Australians can build planes for protection, I say let them. Besides, what's wrong with having Australian planes help defend Asia?
    Nah, Australia defending herself is fine--so long as she does it with British aircraft and British ships protecting British-equipped infantry

  4. #2184
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    Quote Originally Posted by truth is life View Post
    Nah, Australia defending herself is fine--so long as she does it with British aircraft and British ships protecting British-equipped infantry
    at the same time providing a lot of British jobs, haha.
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  5. #2185
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    Agamemnon_1781 - Wasn't aware of that. However the 'cannon fighter' spec is still active (the OTL Whirlwind, TTL who knows?) so the RAF need at least one type of cannon for that.

    DonnieBaseball - Indeed I genuinely wasn't aware of this export plan. I suspect it something the Australians keep quiet about as people kept asking embarrassing questions like 'What were you thinking?" or "Who on earth was going to buy it?"

    I'm not sure on such a scheme, as Dury has said Britain was really very keen to keep the Empire fairly unindustrialised (at the high level anyway) to provide as many British jobs as possible. However as Australia is clearly going to do it anyway, I can't see London refusing out of spite, indeed as far as I can determine offers were made in OTL (admittedly only after it became clear the Aussies were going to the US).

    gaiasabre11 - Gas operation adds weight and complexity, sure in the long term it's the way to go, but in the short term it doesn't give massive advantages. If you want cannon equipped aircraft in service quickly, for the above mentioned Whirlwind for instance you want something simple and ready to go.

    As has been said many times - the best is the enemy of the good. If the RAF had gone for a 'good' FFL instead of a 'better' H-S it could have been ready and in service for the Battle of Britain. Imagine the difference that could of made! No point waiting for a wonder weapon if it turns up too late.

    That said long term you do have a slight problem, the FFL doesn't have much potential to get better where as the H-S does. BUT as all the guns had the same Oerlikon FF heritage I wouldn't have thought adding gas operation is impossible. Worst case you just have to replace it with H-S (or some other cannon depending on foreign relations) so it's not the end of the world.

    Vann the Red - Glad to be of service, though I think the readers should claim most of the credit.

    Nathan Madien - The problem wasn't building for protection it was building for export. Australia arming herself is OK (though I'm sure London wouldn't be happy about it, they would accept it), trying to 'steal' British exports is a different ball-game, even if I still think no bugger would have brought any exports. So it was as much Australia turning away from Britain as Britain not helping.

    truth is life/gaiasabre11 - Wise words.


    Right current plan, unless anyone can come up with a market that looks even slightly possible for Wirraway exports I will have Australia be rudely awakened at the Imperial Conference as it becomes apparent there is no export market.
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    Private Agamemnon_1781's Avatar
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    Right current plan, unless anyone can come up with a market that looks even slightly possible for Wirraway exports I will have Australia be rudely awakened at the Imperial Conference as it becomes apparent there is no export market.[/QUOTE]

    Sell it to the Americans as an improved version of their T-6 trainer (or Havard Mk 1 when exported to the UK) The Wirraway was essentially a cousin having come from the NA-16 airframe. The Wirraway was more useful than the T-6 as it could carry a bomb load, another use for the Wirraway would be for RAF policing action against tribal opponents, such as the North West Frontier, as that was still a rough area, it just depends whether TTL RAF has more capable aircraft, OTL I think they were still using Hawker Demons and Westland Wapitis (at the outbreak of WW2, the Wapiti was still being used by No. 5, 27 and 60 Sqns plus still in service with RCAF and SAAF) so the Wirraway would be a marked improvement, also what about a possible use in the Army Co-operation Role as opposed to the Lysander.....just an idea

  7. #2187
    VC, MC and bar Duritz's Avatar
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    I never said it was a plan that could work (we are talking Conservative politicians after all ) but I believe the idea was that we would sell it to Commonwealth countries and the UK and in turn the UK could shut down their trainer lines and focus on combat aircraft. Our politicians couldn't conceive of military defense outside of the Empire structure but did get quite upset when Britain didn't accept our help. By the time Britain threw its arms up and got serious about helping certain arrangements had been made in regards US investment and didn't want to pull out... a sort of childish petulance if you will.

    I believe the pollies picked trainers because it's an easy 'in' to the art of aircraft making and we saw it as the best way to assist them but our real passion was for bombers, thus our Beufort line. During the war we switched to Beufighters and wanted (but never got) permission to build Lancasters under licence. So I see two options if the Brits are going to give in to our wish:

    1. Shut down trainer production in the UK and retool for newer aircraft while taking Wirraways for training and in Empire stations (like Agamemnon suggested).

    2. In return for kicking out the Americans we get access contracts for the latest bomber designs. We'd want Wellingtons or Sterlings (can't remember what the heavies are in TTL) but would settle for the latest light/medium bombers.

    The second would be our preference, the first would tie in better with historical British reaction... oh, I just thought of a third option - OTL's result that helped no one.

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  8. #2188
    Field Marshal Nathan Madien's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duritz View Post
    During the war we switched to Beufighters and wanted (but never got) permission to build Lancasters under licence.
    What's wrong with Australia building Lancasters under licence?
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    Agamemnon_1781 - It still gets back to the point the NA-16 is a US design, the RAF had a fairly strict 'Buy British' policy. Of course in the run up to WW2 this slipped somewhat (and during the war was dropped entirely) but in general they would much rather get a domestic design.

    Duritz - Thanks for that, most helpful. As it appears my idea is indeed a goer - The Imperial Conference is the perfect time to find out there is no market - I'm going with it.

    Option 1 is right out for the reason discussed above as is Option 3. Thus by a process of elimination that only leaves 2 or a variation thereof. Something for me to ponder.

    Nathan Madien - I have no idea. Especially as the DAP ended up building Avro Lincolns post-war.

    At a guess something to do with engines? Australia only had radial P&W production lines during the war, perhaps Britain didn't want Australia wasting time re-designing the Lancaster to take radials (or spending ages building a Merlin production line) and didn't have spare Merlins to ship out?

    The other option is just some variation on incompetence and/or stupidity. Frankly both are possible but Durry is most likely to know.
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  10. #2190
    Maybe it was hard to see exactly what role AUS Lancs would fill--no Japanese cities in range to burn to the ground, so Beaus and tactical a/c a better idea. (I can't see AUS Lancs being sent to Europe?) Engine point is good too--UK was using all Merlin production (this could be a issue down the road if the US is not around to build 1000s of Packard Merlins!)--Lancs with Twin Wasps would likely be poor performers anyway--even the Mk.II with Hercules engines was inferior to the Merlin versions.
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  11. #2191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Madien View Post
    What's wrong with Australia building Lancasters under licence?
    Maybe it would have disrupted British production somehow for a while (sending specific tools, using some of the workers and designers to teach their Australian counterparts when Churchill felt they were more urgently needed on other things and in Britain) ? Or maybe it was simple rivalry? God knows there has been many such cases during the war.

  12. #2192
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    Interesting about the comprimises in the defense of Hong Kong... Politicians never fail to put forward a half-assed effort just to been seen to be doing something, and making the whole business more easily defeated... Gah!

    Oh, and great update BTW!
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  13. #2193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Madien View Post
    What's wrong with Australia building Lancasters under licence?
    The official line was about engines and machine tools. Britain had none to spare and start up would take too long.

    The real answer involved post war commercial air travel and the fight between the British and the US over control of the industry... and the fact they didn't have engines or machine tools to spare!

    As for why we wanted Lancasters given their limited use to us at that stage of the war; well that goes to Australia's feeble, illogical and ill fated attempts to build a South East Asian protectorate; our hopes to break into commercial air travel; and domestic politics.

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  14. #2194
    saw what you did there Davout's Avatar
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    Only in the Butterfly Effect can a discussion on something as obscure as the Wirraway morph into an analysis on manufacturing strategies within the British Commonwealth and post war commercial airline competition, and take the better part of 3 pages. No wonder we are still in 1937.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davout View Post
    commercial airline competition.
    You cannot beat Air France! Well, not in 1937 you can't. *blows tricolored raspberry*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atlantic Friend View Post
    You cannot beat Air France! Well, not in 1937 you can't. *blows tricolored raspberry*



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    Quote Originally Posted by trekaddict View Post



    You asked for it.
    I cannot see the picture on this computer, but I'm sure you're due for a terrible vengeance as soon as I log in in my usual machine.

    And no, you cannot beat Air France in 1937 my dear sirs!

  18. #2198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atlantic Friend View Post
    I cannot see the picture on this computer, but I'm sure you're due for a terrible vengeance as soon as I log in in my usual machine.

    And no, you cannot beat Air France in 1937 my dear sirs!
    It's a Ju-52 with Lufthansa markings. The picture was taken very recently.
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  19. #2199
    Field Marshal Nathan Madien's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by trekaddict View Post
    It's a Ju-52 with Lufthansa markings. The picture was taken very recently.
    Hey, I saw a show on the Military Channel the other day about this plane.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duritz View Post
    What could be more important than the future of the Wirraway?!?
    I never even heard of the Wirraway until El Pip came along and introduced us to it.
    Last edited by Nathan Madien; 06-08-2009 at 04:57.
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  20. #2200
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    Quote Originally Posted by trekaddict View Post
    It's a Ju-52 with Lufthansa markings. The picture was taken very recently.
    Wicked cool!

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