View Poll Results: What do you think about DAIM?

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  • Excellent, one of my favourite mods!

    143 23.25%
  • Good, I often play with DAIM

    150 24.39%
  • Tried it out, but don't like it

    31 5.04%
  • Never used it, and don't intend to

    26 4.23%
  • Daim? Dein? Dain? What?

    108 17.56%
  • Saippuakauppias (None of the options above apply to me, but I wanted to participate)

    157 25.53%
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Thread: What do you think about DAIM?

  1. #21
    I tried it out, but ultimately got rid of it simply because I dont like the idea of the history deviating in really major ways without my intervention. I want to change history as I know it. I know this is not realistic of me, but its what I want from the game. Still, very well made mod, and you have my respect.

  2. #22
    General Ichon's Avatar
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    Do installing other mods like HSR and SMEP change DAIM buildups alot? I've tried 2 DD games with DAIM for all except Italy loaded, and HSR and SMEP combined also installed. Looking at a couple AARs of Germany facing SU, I see much different SU builds than I faced. SU was much lighter on infantry but mass produced armor like crazy, US did the same(over 100 armor by 1942 in US along with 34 carriers) HSR installed led to SU never building past 1939 inf which is sorta historical initially, but they still had only 39 inf in 43 which isn't realistic. SU only made around 420 inf at it's highest point, though I had something to do with the #'s staying low cause of war, but...

    UK did try many amphibious attacks on northern and atlantic coasts which I liked alot, forces Germany to defend the coasts realistically. Just wonder if I should try vanilla DAIM to see the huge SU infantry buildup- or if the AI is reacting to my own builds as Germany? I build around 30 armor and 50-60 mech/motor.

    With HSR giving SU massive industry boosts and moving industry deep into the urals, that seems like it would be the most difficult combination, but SU with DAIM still was mostly beaten by 43 with a 41 war start. To me if Germany defeats SU the war is pretty much over, it's only a matter of time after that to beat the Allies.

  3. #23
    This is not a historical mod, if your looking for that, you could just play regular. DAIM is great, it changes the game and makes you adust your regular playing skills and rethink your strategy, actually making it better. I played historical games, they can get boring. It's nice to have the AI change history around as well as you.
    Germany DAIM 1936 HOI 2 Doomsday


    Victoria Spain AAR

    "Death is nothing, but to live inglorious and defeated is to die daily" - Napoleon Bonaparte

    "History is a pack of tricks we play on the dead" - Voltaire

  4. #24
    Major Graymane's Avatar
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    Just started playing again after trying some other games. Good to see DAIM is still around and that those being critical of it for not being historical have still failed to grasp the point of the mod after a year and a half.

  5. #25
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    DAIM is probably the best thing thats happened to this game. im playing with doomsday HSR mod DAIM mod and DMP as well as others. let me tell you its nice to see nations actually doing well. No more AI Barbarossa quickly tuning into a steering contest, which is nice for say if your playing as the US and actually want some urgency to launch D-day to save the Russians from falling. or your playing as Germany and you want the soviet union to stop researching marines for gods sake and use their greatest advantage, there manpower. And any body who complains about the Germans conquering the USSR and that not historical then maby they should do some research to see it was very possible in the early stages of the war. And if you look at some of the greatest fiascoes made by the Germans like Stalingrad you see it was largely Hitlers fault by interfering with his generals plans. And diverting resources to killing minorities instead of fighting the war.

    overall i am a ritual short of making this a worshiping this as a religion.

  6. #26
    I feel ambivalent about the mod. It weakens HoI's strengths (the historicity) and strengthens its weaknesses (the poor AI and overall lack of challenge). I don't see this as being a very good tradeoff.

    Mostly I'm bugged by the China situation. Many historians believe that the Japanese really did halt their offensive by choice, and not because they were forced to. Major offensives ceased after the Japanese took the most productive and valuable parts of the country. All the Japanese army did was collect their loot and chase off any local forces that made trouble. This only changed when US bomber offensives started actualy making trouble for Japan.

    If China is made unannexable, this actually becomes a reasonable strategy, since taking the remaining provinces wouldn't be worth the occupation TC drain.

  7. #27
    Major Graymane's Avatar
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    The problem with "historical" is that you have to define what that means and also define how that is implemented in game terms. Then you have to realize that "historical" and "possible" become involved. Then you have to remember that you are playing a game that doesn't really model land forces correctly, isn't really very operational and has no tactical level. You are left with a really cool version of Risk that lets you focus on a few major strategic considerations.

    At the end of the day, we all know how WW II turned out, how it was fought and what the major turning points and decisions were. There are no mysteries or profound insights that any one is going to bring to the table or these boards. We want the game to be ahistorical even if we say we don't mainly because we want to be able to play all the major countries and have a chance to win and a good time doing it. When we are playing, we also want the game to be ahistorical because we want a challenge. We don't want France to just roll over and die, we actually want a bit of action as a reward for the time we are investing playing this game.

    I applaud ahistorical for these reasons and one other. Namely, I hate it that I know how events are going to unfold in the game because they have been historically scripted to do so. This is just annoying. If I choose to use that information, I can wait to research a few techs because I'll get them as part of the Condor legion returning home event and I can wait about 3 days before queuing up a factory build until the reoocupation event fires and I get +1 hawk and I can hold off on building more troops because I get some when I annex Austria and Czech. I can hold off building any troops until late '38 or early '39 and just queue factories to give me more production, higher tech and more TC for the attack on the USSR that will happen in '41. That is just as Germany, every major country has these kinds of events and strategies that are "historical" but just gamey.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Graymane
    The problem with "historical" is that you have to define what that means and also define how that is implemented in game terms. Then you have to realize that "historical" and "possible" become involved. Then you have to remember that you are playing a game that doesn't really model land forces correctly, isn't really very operational and has no tactical level. You are left with a really cool version of Risk that lets you focus on a few major strategic considerations.
    If I wanted to play the Risk mod, I would have downloaded it instead.

    And what on earth does not having a tactical level have to do with anything?


    We want the game to be ahistorical even if we say we don't mainly because we want to be able to play all the major countries and have a chance to win and a good time doing it.
    Which "we" do you mean? The "we" that I'm a member of wants to have historical decisions give you a range of results that are historically probable. So some aspects of DAIM make the game worse because the historical outcomes become not only improbable, but virtually impossible.


    Namely, I hate it that I know how events are going to unfold in the game because they have been historically scripted to do so. This is just annoying. If I choose to use that information, I can wait to research a few techs because I'll get them as part of the Condor legion returning home event and I can wait about 3 days before queuing up a factory build until the reoocupation event fires and I get +1 hawk and I can hold off on building more troops because I get some when I annex Austria and Czech. I can hold off building any troops until late '38 or early '39 and just queue factories to give me more production, higher tech and more TC for the attack on the USSR that will happen in '41. That is just as Germany, every major country has these kinds of events and strategies that are "historical" but just gamey.
    Yep. That's why I never play 36 scenarios unless I want to go in a radically ahistorical direction with that country.

  9. #29
    Major Graymane's Avatar
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    sorry, "we" meaning people that play ahistorical.

  10. #30
    OK; nothing wrong with that. Just a different playstyle from mine. If I don't want at least a quasi-historical experience, I'll play a different game altogether.

    And to be clear, I am keeping some parts of DAIM for my personal installation. Just not all of it.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by comradeleigh
    Its a shame though that Germany always seems to conquer Russia.
    They do? In the game I'm currently playing, as Australia and having little impact so far as I've readied my IC + Navy to take on Japan, the USSR is doing VERY good. Perhaps a little too good! Germany declared war on USSR in May 1941, but instead of pushing on, they were pushed back. It's like July now, and the USSR has taken all of Poland.

    I'll play some more, see if the Germans manage to get their stuff together. If not, I think I'll see a red Europe in '42!

  12. #32
    The Chinese Theater issue:

    Guangxi Clique should secede Guangdong to Nationalist China, not the Commies.
    Japan shouldn't annex Yunnan and Xibei San Ma. (although event modification is against the purpose of DAIM) Players could mod these themselves.

  13. #33
    Citizen G'Kar's Avatar
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    DAIM only makes minor changes to the surrender event of China to prevent a convoy bug from happening. It's not our intention to make the Chinese theater as a whole more historical - although it could really need some attention, starting from the Chinese not really having a chance against Japan. However, our intention is to mod the AI, not scenario setups or game events.

    Typing in all capital letters went out of style with FORTRAN.

  14. #34
    It would be cool if the Chinese AI put up more of a fight, though. But I suppose the initial scenario set up is what makes China weak, not its AI.

  15. #35
    Citizen G'Kar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MingeBag
    But I suppose the initial scenario set up is what makes China weak, not its AI.
    Indeed. One could still go from let's say 90/95% to 99% concerning the Chinese AI, but the results wouldn't make much difference. Giving 100 militias or garrisons to the Chinese would probably be closer to reality, but that's not our policy. Feel free to do it though if you want a bigger challenge!

    Typing in all capital letters went out of style with FORTRAN.

  16. #36
    Prince des Tenebres DesertFoxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G'Kar
    I can see your point but China simply is much too weak in the game. Would you abstain from conquering China as human Japan only because it is ahistorical?
    Actually yes, I usually refrain from attacking China as Japan because I think its too easy to conquer and makes me ahistorically strong.

    The China/Japan issue is a huge one in MP play, I absolutely *hate* games where Japan is allowed to puppet China, and yet letting them annex is not a great solution either (infinitely preferable to puppeting, but still). So the only way I can think of to make it remotely enjoyable is to leave China alone... or not attack them until I'm at war with the Allies - then its challenging enough as with that much time they've built up sufficiently to defend themselves.

    Bringing this back to DAIM - is the weakness of China an AI issue? I don't really think so, or I suppose I'm not entirely sure what the problem is. Their tech/techteams/dissent/IC combination seems to me to be the big stumbling block that makes them fold so easily, but I'm curious as to whether you had and specific AI ideas as to how to make them put up sterner resistance.
    Because I do believe that 9/10 Japan should fail to conquer China, it really should be next to impossible...
    Where we're going we won't need Rhodes.

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  17. #37
    Citizen G'Kar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesertFoxx
    Bringing this back to DAIM - is the weakness of China an AI issue?
    No, China simply needs more units, either right from the start or by events when Japan advances.

    Typing in all capital letters went out of style with FORTRAN.

  18. #38
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    Sergeant

    Seems to be a lot of haters. Personally, I love DAIM. Playing as Germany I can no longer sealion in 39 and take the whole island and my allies are much stronger. Not to mention the SU seems to be a lot harder. I think that it has put a whole new life into my game.

  19. #39
    Darkest Hour Game Designer Fernando Torres's Avatar
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    DAIM is my favorite mod! Sometines, you feel like playing in multiplayer

  20. #40
    Citizen G'Kar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fernando Torres
    Sometines, you feel like playing in multiplayer
    Thanks a lot, that's a huge praise!

    Typing in all capital letters went out of style with FORTRAN.

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