• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Timotheos said:
Three indian country descriptions for you all to look at:

PAK; Delhi

The syndicalist revolution in Britain precipitated the collapse of the British Empire. In India a combination of princes, rajahs, nationalists and syndicalists started breaking up the sub-continent. Realising the irretrevable nature of the disaster Governer-General Isaacs, now left only with north-west India, chose to create a free nation himself and by doing so ensured that it would remain friendly to royalist interests. The move recieved harsh criticism form some - India was after all the Jewel of the Empire - but the royalist government realised and accepted the necesssity of the move in the short-term. The new state of Delhi has thus remained in a close partnership with Canada and its allies. Muhammed Shuja Al-Mulk was placed on the throne as Prince of Delhi, and has been advised by a mised group of Indians and British advisors. In the decade since its formation Delhi has struggled to consolidate its position in India, clearing out several of the smaller regimes that had sprung up and maintaining a strong front against the syndicalist forces in Bengal. However unrest is growing in its lands as syndicalist spies and sympathisers use anti-colonial propaganda to stir up the peasantry. At the same time rumours have begun to spread about a possible resurrection of the Mughal Empire, which dominated India in the 16th and 17th centuries. Indeed some rumours suggest that an heir of the Mughal royal family itself survives and if these are true he may prove to be a focus for rebellion in the future.



IND; Princely Federation

With the revolution of 1925 going on in Britain India became a power vacuum which various factions raced to fill. The creation of a federal state in the south was more an attempt by the local rulers to protect their lands and riches from the chaos. Nevertheless it proved able to become a stable nation, one in which each of the local princes and rajahs had a say in government. Unsurprisingly tensions have arisen amongst the lowers classes of society about their exculsion from political life in the Federation. A few of the rajahs believe that Bengalese synidcalist influences are behind the unrest, although there is no evidence for that view. The Princely Federation by 1936 controls the entire southern part of the subcontinent but further expansion is limited by their two big neighbours - Bengal and Delhi. This suits the ruling princes just fine as their neighbours also prevent aggression from other nations and at the moment strong isolationist factions dominate the ruling elite. Perhaps the one exception concerns the island of Ceylon, which is currently in German hands. Many of the rajahs feel that the island could all too easily act as a base for new waves of colonial aggression into India, this time from Germany. Unfortunately Germany has already refused two offers to buy the island from them and concern is thus growing. In 1936 then the Princely Federation is for the most part inward looking and focused on stability rather than expansion but potential for conflict exists just across the seas.

PRK; Bengal

In the complete collapse of British control of India that came in 1936 it was the growing syndicalist movement in India that was first to act. On October 19th 1925 the People's Republic of Bengal was proclaimed in Calcutta. Of course in reality it was not as easy as that. While the British garrisons were by then being withdrawn many other groups opposed the new state and it was not untill 1927 that Bengal was at peace, by which time two other large Indian states were in place blocking further syndicalist expansion. Thus the government of Bengal chose tu look inwards temporarily, rooting out 'imperialist sympathisers' and trying to repair the damage caused to infrastructure and industry by the chaos, while also avoiding the attentions of Germany who was not sympathetic to the syndicalist state. In the early 30's Bengal began to look outwards once more. Unwilling to risk a large scale war immediately Bengali foreign policy instead aimed at supporting syndicalist movements in its neighbours in the hopes of causing political collapse, which would allow a military invasion to take place. By 1936 there was evidence that this strategem was beginning to bear fruit in Indo-china and in Delhi.


You may note that there are some more ideas in the descriptions for potential events too.

Cool - many thanks! Just realised that Delhi is going to have a very very strong Sikh lobby - they'd be likely to dominate the military and have extensive political rights and privileges. Could make for some interesting events....

Possibly add something about the Princely Federation promoting a distinctive form of 'Hindu-Conservative' social organisation. Although I'm not 100% sure about the ratio of Hindu to Muslim Princes in the area, it would seem to be the obvious route for them to go down to maintain some sort of popular support, and a distinctive identity.

And maybe give Bengal the official title of 'Ryot Republic of Bengal' - 'People's' might be a bit too OTL Communist, and this would bring out the nativist-peasant principles!
 
Belphegor said:
This mod is amazing, I downloaded the alpha a couple days ago and it's totally awesome, I can't wait for the full release.

80 pages is a lot to look through, so if it was said before I apologize, but do you need any help with the Japanese navy? I've got a pretty extensive knowledge on the Post WWI 8-8 Program and all the large capital ships Japan intended to build or was building but were scrapped because of the Washington Treaty. Which also begs the question: in this alternate history, does the Washington Treaty even occur?

I'd be more than happy to lend some info to help you guys come up with an IJN OOB.

Cool - many thanks! As CCurio said, no Washington Naval Treaty, so battleship development is going to be different to OTL - although the huge ships Germany would be cranking out might make the Japanese naval establishment reconsider more radical smaller designs if they feel they can't compete.

Feel free to come up with a new Japanese OOB - although remember it's probably going to have to be divided into 'Home Islands' and 'Colonial/Imperial' navies, reflecting the new Japanese setup (discussed a couple of pages back).
 
CCurio said:
Replace the current U08 parts with these...

U08;LightYellow;JAP;JAP;X <-- in country.csv

U08;Empire of Japan;Empire of Japan;Empire of Japan;Empire of Japan;Empire of Japan;Empire of Japan;;;;;X <- world_names.csv

And I got a basic minister file for Empire of Japan, but it needs to have it's id's tweaked, I believe.

Excellent - both of these are very good!
 
Earth's Savior said:
I'm playing as Russia.

Problem! I chose to ally with Japan over the Transamur thing, and it removed me from my alliance with the USA/Bulgaria/Greece! I don't even have the option to declare war on them anymore. Every time I highlight the "declare war", it is dark and says I cannot declare war until March 1939. It is April 1939! :eek:

What's happening?! :confused:

Yeah, the 'joinalliance' command is a bit erratic, and often doesn't work properly or makes you leave your existing alliance.

Who exactly can you not declare war on? If it's your former allies, it may be because you've got non-aggression pacts with them, although I'm not 100% sure on all the specifics. I have 2 suggestions:

1) You use the 'acceptall' cheat to leave the Japanese alliance and re-enter your old one

2) Alternatively (and possibly better), go into the savegame.eug file and edit the alliances so the correct people (RUS, JAP, BUL, GRE, USA, and maybe MAN...) are all in one alliance. Isn't tricky to do at all, but if you've got no clue about this and can PM me a link to the file today before 15:00 CET (eg in 4 hours time - because this week is busy!) I could do it for you.
 
Cool - many thanks! Just realised that Delhi is going to have a very very strong Sikh lobby - they'd be likely to dominate the military and have extensive political rights and privileges. Could make for some interesting events....

Possibly add something about the Princely Federation promoting a distinctive form of 'Hindu-Conservative' social organisation. Although I'm not 100% sure about the ratio of Hindu to Muslim Princes in the area, it would seem to be the obvious route for them to go down to maintain some sort of popular support, and a distinctive identity.

And maybe give Bengal the official title of 'Ryot Republic of Bengal' - 'People's' might be a bit too OTL Communist, and this would bring out the nativist-peasant principles!

Ok. I'll make some changes to the descriptions and repost them soon.

From what I know I think southern India tended to have more Hindu princes thanmuslim ones so this seems right.

Oh yes I found a list of Mughal descendants on wikipedia:

At least three lines of descent from Bahadur Shah Zafar are known:

Delhi line-- son Mirza Fathul Mulk Bahadur (alias Mirza Fakhru), grandson Mirza Farkhunda Jamal, great-grandchildren Hamid Shah and Begum Qamar Sultan, great-great-granddaughters (daughters of Begum Qamar Sultan) Begum Tahira Sultan & Pakizah Sultan Begum.

Kolkata line-- son Jawan Bakht, grandson Jamshid Bakht, great-grandson Mirza Muhammad Bedar Bakht (married Sultana Begum). Currently she owns a tea stall in Kolkata

Hyderabad line-- son Mirza Quaish, grandson Mirza Abdullah, great-grandson Mirza Pyare (married Habib Begum), great-great-granddaughter Begum Laila Ummahani (married _____ Tucy).

The Delhi line is, I think, the legitimate one to become emperor. Unfortunately I am unable to get birth/death dates for the line so I don't know whether it should be Mirza Farkhunda Jamal, Hamid Shah or Begum Qamar Sultan who should be the candidate in 1936. Also struggling to find any pictures for them. Any help here would be much appreciated.
 
Timotheos said:
The Delhi line is, I think, the legitimate one to become emperor. Unfortunately I am unable to get birth/death dates for the line so I don't know whether it should be Mirza Farkhunda Jamal, Hamid Shah or Begum Qamar Sultan who should be the candidate in 1936. Also struggling to find any pictures for them. Any help here would be much appreciated.

This site has lots of information, but it's a bit confusingly laid out and they don't want you using their pictures:

http://www.4dw.net/royalark/

Could be good for gathering data on a whole range of things though...
 
CCurio said:
I sent the minister file to you. So, I guess the only things left to do now are the leaders and distribution of the navies...

Cool, got it - many thanks!

Now I must disappear completely for a couple of days, and be fairly inactive for a week or so, as I have to return to and travel across Britain on various engagements - So keep posting stuff and arguing with one another in my absence!
 
There's NATIONAL REVOLUTION event for Bohemia

***********National revolution in Böhmen***************
-Will occur at 28.9.1936 (jubilee of 1001 years from killing czech prince, saint Vaclav)
-for BOHEMIA only

------BOHEMIA--------
TEXT: From 1620 we are under foreign control. For almost 330 years we live under Austrian pressure, our language is repressed, our head of state is from Austria and our government is collaborating with these half-german rats! Now it's the end of German mastery over Kingdom of Bohemia. We'll execute collaborators and crown some intelligent nationalist as a king of glory Kingdom of Bohemia! Long live the revolution!

OPTION 1: "Let's dispense slavic idea!"
-Bohemia isn't puppet of Austria no more
-relation with Austria -75
-relation with Hungary -50
-relation with Russia +80
-relation with Serbia +50
-national dissent changed -5
-new militia in Prague

I suggest as a new leader of Bohemia - Jan I.

There's a picture of Jan I.
cikk_1059497230_schwarzenberg.jpg
 
Here are the events for Böhmen, now I must think how to change the king :) Wait
event = {
id = 1
random = no
country = CZE

name = "National revolution in Böhmen"
desc = "From 1620 we are under foreign control. For almost 330 years we live under Austrian pressure, our language is repressed, our head of state is from Austria and our government is collaborating with these half-german rats! Now it's the end of German mastery over Kingdom of Bohemia. We'll execute collaborators and crown some intelligent nationalist as a king of glory Kingdom of Bohemia! Long live the revolution!"
style = 0
picture = "election"
trigger = {
atwar = no
exists = AUS }

date = { day = 28 month = september year = 1936 }

action_a = {

command = { type = end_puppet }
command = { type = dissent value = -5 }
command = { type = relation which = AUS value = -75 }
command = { type = relation which = HUN value = -50 }
command = { type = relation which = RUS value = 80 }
command = { type = relation which = SER value = -50 }
command = { type = add_division value = militia }

}
}

event = {
id = 1
random = no
country = AUS

name = "National revolution in Böhmen"
desc = "Kingdom of Bohemia is part of our glory empire since 1620, when Battle on the White Mountain occured. Bohemia used to be an industrial granary of Austria-Hungary empire. Czechs fought in Great War on our side (but also on enemy's side) and after war they has been gained autonomy. Now they're trying to separate and declare independent Slavic nation under king Jan I."
style = 0
picture = "india"
trigger = {
atwar = no
exists = CZE }

date = { day = 28 month = september year = 1936 }

action_a = {
name = "They are still a part of our empire! War!"
command = { type = dissent value = 10 }
command = { type = war which = CZE }

}
action_b = {
name = "Leave them be"
command = { type = relation which = CZE value = 50 }
}
}
 
I admit to merely being a lurker, but i've play tested variations on the Second American Civil War several times and i determined that there are several events which would improve the aftermath considerably as well as some current flaws. I am taking for granted in the below statements that the player chooses to go without Military intervention, which i find improbable, in the September event. I think these changes will make the war more enjoyable.

Before the War:

I find it likely that California would have more industry if it was the only economically successful part of the USA, as it is they are woefully underpowered when the war begins. All they have in their favor is the vast amount of land under their control. They dont really stand a chance.

Starting the War:

If a Democratic or Republican president is elected and both the CSA and AUS leave the union, California should also be released as i find it likely they would be given more autonomy when they are severed from the east. They could choose between being puppeted by USA or going for even more independence.

The events for the war between CSA and AUS are good, just to say, but they should come sooner as i have had them come months after the initial succession.

More leaders would also be nice for the three new nations as well.

I have no concern for the starting borders, though the CSA quickly loses most of their industry, but there should also be an event creating cores on old US for all nations. This could vary, as the CSA would have more support in large cities and populated areas, while the AUS may want control over other parts of north America as well. California should probably only have cores on pre-war US.

Philipenes should be released as a USA puppet, and go fully independent, perhaps as a separate event.

What about the navy? It usually winds up sitting in Pearl Harbor while the war goes on. Is there a way to make the navy become part of the nation in which it is stationed when the war begins?

During the War:

Canada always declares war on California once belligerence reaches a certain point, along with the remnants of the allies. This likely shouldnt happen though i guess it qualifies on the side of intervention.

Intervention:

I find it unlikely Germany or other Europe powers would intervene which would leave that to nearby nations like Mexico and Canada, maybe Brazil or one of the southern alliances as well. Mexico seems likely to lean towards California, or USA depending on who revolts. Canada and the Allies seem more likely to lean toward a dictatorship, so maybe AUS, or perhaps events could be made with USA and the Allies offering aid in return for alliance to retake Britian and France after the Civil War. Along those lines the Syndicalists in britian and France would probably try and send support to the CSA if they could actually manage to take and hold an East Coast port.

After the War:

If mainland USA falls to any one power, the colonies should join it.

Other:

Maybe Panama should have an option to retake the canal, it would make things slightly more interesting.

Mexico could also be given claims to parts of US if they have a paternal autocrat gov at some point during the war.

There should also be a "Canada Surrenders" event should they join or declare war on any faction, and are ultimately beaten.



I thought of a few others but i dont remember them right now, anyways these changing would make the American fighting far more interesting.
 
Sounds good to me, and all the events regarding "the CSA is weak" should be redone. I hate it when i see "yeah, war in the US!!" and then the weak party is just being annexed. Even if the country is "weak", as stated in the event description, there should be a real war and not something like rejoining the union without a fight. that is boring in my point of view.
 
And some events regarding France and Germany. I suspect that Sarmatia will be able to whip up a tag for the Commune of the Ruhr?
Code:
event = {
	id = xxx1
	random = no
	country = GER

        trigger = {
                 NOT = {
                     war = { country = GER country = FRA }
                 }

	name = "The Great Ruhr Strike of 1940"
	desc = "In the summer of 1940, the industrial workers and coal miners of the Ruhr,the Rheinlnd and the german provinces of Lüttich (Liège) and Arel (Arlon) went on a strike, concerned over welfare cuts. As these areas were some of the most industrialized territories in Germany, the german leadership became quite worried."
	style = 0
	picture = "Rhineland"

	date = { day = 1 month = may year = 1940 }

	action_a = {
		name = "Damn"
		command = { type = dissent value = 5 }
                command = { type = peacetime_ic_mod value = -20 }
                command = { type = trigger which = xxx2 }
	}
}

event = {
	id = xxx2
	random = no
	country = FRA

	name = "The Great Ruhr Strike of 1940"
	desc = "In the summer of 1940, the industrial workers and coal miners of the Ruhr,the Rheinlnd and the german provinces of Lüttich (Liège) and Arel (Arlon) went on a strike, concerned over welfare cuts. The Commune of France immediately declared it's political support for the striking workers."
	style = 0
	picture = "Rhineland"

	date = { day = 1 month = may year = 1940 }

	action_a = {
		name = "Supply them with money"
                ai_chance = 45
		command = { type = money value = -20 }
                command = { type = relation which = GER value = -50 }
                command = { type = setflag = "fra_active_ruhr_support" }
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "Political support is enough"
                ai_chance = 45
		command = { type = dissent value = 5 }
                command = { type = relation which = GER value = -20 }
                command = { type = setflag = "fra_passive_ruhr_support" }
	}
	action_c = {
		name = "Withdraw the political support"
                ai_chance = 10
		command = { type = dissent value = 10 }
                command = { type = relation which = GER value = 20 }
	}
}

event = {
	id = xxx3
	random = no
	country = GER

        trigger = {
                event = xxx1
                dissent = 1
        }

	name = "Dealing With the Strike"
	desc = "After two weeks of striking, the german government descided that something had to be done."
	style = 0
	picture = "Rhineland"

	date = { day = 15 month = may year = 1940 }

	action_a = {
		name = "Use lock-outs and other non-niolent force"
                command = { type = dissent value = 5 }
                command = { type = peacetime_ic_mod value = 20 }
                command = { type = trigger which = xxx6 }
	}

	action_b = {
		name = "Send in the army"
		command = { type = supplies value = -200 }
                command = { type = dissent value = 5 }
                command = { type = trigger which = xxx4 }
                command = { type = trigger which = xxx5 }
                command = { type = construct which = industry where = 316 value = -1 }
                command = { type = construct which = industry where = 73 value = -1 }
                command = { type = construct which = industry where = 72 value = -1 }
                command = { type = construct which = industry where = 71 value = -1 }
                command = { type = construct which = industry where = 70 value = -1 }
                command = { type = construct which = industry where = 68 value = -1 }
                command = { type = construct which = industry where = 74 value = -1 }
                command = { type = construct which = industry where = 75 value = -1 }
                command = { type = construct which = industry where = 66 value = -1 }
                command = { type = construct which = industry where = 67 value = -1 }
                command = { type = construct which = industry where = 76 value = -1 }
                command = { type = peacetime_ic_mod value = 20 }
	}

	action_c = {
		name = "Negotiate with them"
		command = { type = dissent value = 5 } #german high leadership opposes it
                command = { type = money value = -100 }
                command = { type = peacetime_ic_mod value = 20 }
	}
}

# France has given active support

event = {
	id = xxx4
	random = no
	country = FRA

        trigger = {
                flag = "fra_active_ruhr_support"
        }

	name = "The Bloody End of the Strike"
	desc = "The german government descided to send the army against the helpless strikers. Loud voices are beeing raised for us to do something in responce to this atrocity!"
	style = 0
	picture = "Rhineland"

	action_a = {
		name = "Supply them with arms and money"
                command = { type = money value = -20 }
                command = { type = supplies value = -100 }
                command = { type = trigger which = xxx7 }
                command = { type = relation which = GER value = -50 }
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "Protest against this atrocity"
                command = { type = dissent value = 10 }
                command = { type = relation which = GER value = -10 }
	}
}

# France has given passive support

event = {
	id = xxx5
	random = no
	country = FRA

        trigger = {
                flag = "fra_passive_ruhr_support"
        }

	name = "The Bloody End of the Strike"
	desc = "The german government descided to send the army against the helpless strikers. Loud voices are beeing raised for us to do something in responce to this atrocity!"
	style = 0
	picture = "Rhineland"

	action_a = {
		name = "Support the formation of syndicalist trade unions"
                command = { type = money value = -20 }
                command = { type = trigger which = xxx9 }
                command = { type = relation which = GER value = -20 }
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "Protest against this atrocity"
                command = { type = dissent value = 10 }
                command = { type = relation which = GER value = -10 }
	}
}

event = {
	id = xxx6
	random = no
	country = FRA
        
        trigger = {
                OR = {
                   flag = "fra_active_ruhr_support"
                   flag = "fra_passive_ruhr_support"
                }
        }

	name = "The Repatriation Movement"
	desc = "With the forced - but peaceful - end of the Great Ruhr Strike, the Commune of France began forming the repatriation movement. This movement was a merger of nationalism and syndicalism. With the motto 'Syndicalist People - Syndicalist State', it propagated for the 'repatriation' of large tracts of german land to France and a de-germanized Belgium."
	style = 0
	picture = "Rhineland"

	action_a = {
		name = "Syndicalist People - Syndicalist State!"
                command = { type = trigger which = xxx10 }
                command = { type = trigger which = xxx11 }
                command = { type = relation which = GER value = -20 }
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "No!"
                command = { type = dissent value = 5 }
                command = { type = relation which = GER value = 10 }
	}
}

# Commune of the Ruhr

event = {
	id = xxx7
	random = no
	country = GER

	name = "The Workers are Back!"
	desc = "The workers in western Germany are back - with a vengeance. They have declared themselves 'The Commune of Ruhr', and are rapidly consolidating their power over the industrialized areas of Germany."
	style = 0
	picture = "Rhineland"

	action_a = {
		name = "We will crush them!"
                command = { type = independence which = xxx value = 0 when = 0 }
                command = { type = trigger which = xxx8 }
	}
}

event = {
	id = xxx8
	random = no
	country = xxx

	name = "Workers Unite!"
	desc = "The Revolution has begun!"
	style = 0
	picture = "Rhineland"

	action_a = {
		name = "Workers Unite!"
                command = { type = add_division value = militia }
                command = { type = add_division value = militia }
                command = { type = add_division value = militia }
                command = { type = add_division value = militia }
                command = { type = add_division value = militia }
                command = { type = add_division value = infantry }
                command = { type = add_division value = infantry }
                command = { type = end_puppet }
                command = { type = leave_alliance }
                command = { type = war which = GER }
                command = { type = domestic which = democratic value = 10 }
                command = { type = domestic which = political_left value = -10 }
	}
}

# Syndicalist trade unions

event = {
	id = xxx9
	random = no
	country = GER

	name = "Growth of German Syndicalism"
	desc = "A large amount of our trade unions have gone from socialism to syndicalism, and are beeing directed from Paris."
	style = 0
	picture = "Rhineland"

	action_a = {
		name = "We will crush them eventually"
                command = { type = domestic which = freedom value = 1 } #germany begins to lose control of her trade unions...
                command = { type = dissent value = 2 } #...which is demonstrated by dissent...
                command = { type = construct which = industry where = -1 value = -1 }
                command = { type = construct which = industry where = -1 value = -1 }
                command = { type = construct which = industry where = -1 value = -1 }# ...and loss of industrial output
        }
}

# The repatriation movement in Germany

event = {
	id = xxx10
	random = no
	country = GER

	name = "The Repatriation Movement"
	desc = "The repatriation movement - aiming to remove our influence from Flanders-Wallonia aswell as to annex large portions of western Germany to France - is spreading. They are already forming local parties, and could be a force to recon with in local elections to come."
	style = 0
	picture = "Rhineland"

	action_a = {
		name = "They will never gain anything like a majority"
                command = { type = dissent value = 2 }
                command = { type = setflag = "repatriation_movement_GER" }
        }
}

#The repatriation movement in Flandern-Wallonien

event = {
	id = xxx11
	random = no
	country = BEL

	name = "The Repatriation Movement"
	desc = "The repatriation movement - aiming to create a government without german influence and return western Belgium to Belgian control - is spreading. They are already forming local parties, and could be a force to recon with in local elections to come."
	style = 0
	picture = "Rhineland"

	action_a = {
		name = "They will never gain anything like a majority"
                command = { type = dissent value = 2 }
                command = { type = setflag = "repatriation_movement_BEL" }
        }
}
 
i know some one mectioned this
but what about alaska they stay in the USA
they should be liberated or canada should occupy it
same goes for other territorys in the west that are untouched
and newengland is cut off from washington when the csa appears
califorinia should scede if the aus does, more logistical reasons
 
This is looking cool, can't wait to play release.

Hope you guys are planning on going into the 50s with Doomsday coming out, that would be fun as well. However I can see how it would be difficult to create such a HUGE event chain.
 
Well, i played the mod as the Ottoman Empire until '41 and i was quite disappointed because of the lack of events there ... even no faction description...
I hoped for some events regarding the arab unrest in the region. Note that during WWI Lawrence of Arabia with the aid of some arab tribes fought the Ottoman troops. So it would be interesting to have some unrest events.
I guess i'll have a look at this and maybe i come up with something ;)
 
Dead Byte said:
Well, i played the mod as the Ottoman Empire until '41 and i was quite disappointed because of the lack of events there ... even no faction description...
I hoped for some events regarding the arab unrest in the region. Note that during WWI Lawrence of Arabia with the aid of some arab tribes fought the Ottoman troops. So it would be interesting to have some unrest events.
I guess i'll have a look at this and maybe i come up with something ;)


Yeah, I'm hoping his update will be event heavy. I would rather look at shadowy ministers than have only a few events. Germany especially needs more events. Its hard to even tell it is about Germany judging from them. ;)