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Do you have any sources for these changes? To be included in VIP, generally you have to prov you didn't just make these up ;)
 
I got some earlier data. according:

http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/popul...ope/russiap.htm

Yeniseisk has population of 2,650,300 in 1840. I believe that has to mean the whole of Siberia (outside other gubernias back then). If we use that (with 1,014 and 5 years) we get starting population of 2,472,300. Not that big difference compared with your figure - some 74k less. Actually I can live with that. What I'm more conserned is the big portion of russians in Siberia but that seems to be just thing that I have to live with.

BTW: You did awesome job with those Siberian POPs
Never mind
 
Update - 30.11.2005

-Splitted big pops to get them below 40
-added some craftsmen&clerks in moscow, st. petersburgh & minsk
-finished belarussian files.

References for files:

Russia's Western Borderlands, 1710-1870
Edward C. Thaden/Princeton University Press,1984

History of Ukraine
Paul Robert Magocsi/University of Washington Press,1998

Handbuch der Geschichte WeissRusslands
Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht,2001

Deutsche Geschichte im Osten Europas - Russia
Gerd Stricker/Siedler Verlag

The Forgotten Minorities of Eastern Europa
East-West Books,2004

http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/Europe/russiap.htm
 
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Ges said:
Update - 30.11.2005

-Splitted big pops to get them below 40
-added some craftsmen&clerks in moscow, st. petersburgh & minsk
-finished belarussian files.

References for files:

Russia's Western Borderlands, 1710-1870
Edward C. Thaden/Princeton University Press,1984

History of Ukraine
Paul Robert Magocsi/University of Washington Press,1998

Handbuch der Geschichte WeissRusslands
Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht,2001

Deutsche Geschichte im Osten Europas - Russia
Gerd Stricker/Siedler Verlag

The Forgotten Minorities of Eastern Europa
East-West Books,2004

http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/Europe/russiap.htm
Can you do one little tweak to your POP files?

Can you fill out the 4-5 empty factories with craftsmen, not necessarily of a large size. Easiest would be convert 5 small farmers in each state to craftsmen and voila problem solved
 
tyrel68 said:
Can you do one little tweak to your POP files?

Can you fill out the 4-5 empty factories with craftsmen, not necessarily of a large size. Easiest would be convert 5 small farmers in each state to craftsmen and voila problem solved

Wouldn't make sense historically. Russia wasn't an industrialized country at this point, so it should have empty factory slots.
If you want to fill them (I don't see why), they should be extremely small, like 500 or something.

Also, remember that most factories in the world are wrongly placed too.
I'd prefer to wait with it until the right factories are in the right states, or someone might forget to remove them after the factories are removed.
 
G-Klav said:
Wouldn't make sense historically. Russia wasn't an industrialized country at this point, so it should have empty factory slots.
If you want to fill them (I don't see why), they should be extremely small, like 500 or something.

Also, remember that most factories in the world are wrongly placed too.
I'd prefer to wait with it until the right factories are in the right states, or someone might forget to remove them after the factories are removed.
it's to do with how the AI interprets empty factories and free craftsmen.

It throws off the balance of the system
 
tyrel68 said:
it's to do with how the AI interprets empty factories and free craftsmen.

It throws off the balance of the system

I see. Well, if they are small, even I could live with it, I suppose.
Also Ges, is it OK if I change your Finnish POP file a little?

Raising the Swedish to 14.5% and add 3 POP's (12,000 people). I'm not sure where to add them, but I'll add two to Helsinki and one to Kuopio.
 
Great work i'd say, really hope your figures and estimations are reliable but your reference are persuasive though. I would suggest to subtract some of the ashkenazic farmers in major cities and make them clergymen instead, places like shitomir, minsk and kiev had strong jewish communities including synagoges and, of course, rabbis. Shalom!
 
von_Ysselstein said:
Great work i'd say, really hope your figures and estimations are reliable but your reference are persuasive though. I would suggest to subtract some of the ashkenazic farmers in major cities and make them clergymen instead, places like shitomir, minsk and kiev had strong jewish communities including synagoges and, of course, rabbis. Shalom!

Thanks. I'll consider jewish clergymen when I'll updating files next time.
 
The population in total is much more than compared to VIP but this may be correct, dunno exactly. Are the pops in your file also representing only the working population?

This is 1/4 of the real total population. 100,000 people = 25,000 pops, got it.
 
von_Ysselstein said:
The population in total is much more than compared to VIP but this may be correct, dunno exactly. Are the pops in your file also representing only the working population?


Yes. That's the way pop files work in Victoria. These russia pop files are total rework so basically they don't compare in any other pop files.
 
I like how you represented the Eastern Belarusian provinces, but there are still are lot of things I would like to point, basing on the date of the Imperial census of 1897, and which are needed to be fixed.

First of all regarding Vilna and Molodechno region. It is quite strange that the regions are mainly Lithuanian, when in fact they were already much slavinized in the 19th century. The data of the census in the Vilna gubernia says there were:
56,2 % Belarusians
17,6 % Lithuanians
12,6 % Jews
8,2 % Poles
4,9 % Russians
0,2 % Germans
0,1 % Ukrainians
0,1 % Tatars
0,1 % Others

In the Vilna uyezd (district), which are resented by Vilna province in game itself:
63,0 % Belarusians
19,8 % Lithuanians
8,4 % Jews
5,6 % Poles
3,0 % Russians
0,2 % Others

And according to the results only in the city itself (only urban population):
40,0 % Jews
30,1 % Poles
20,9 % Russians
4,3 % Belarusians
2,1 % Lithuanians
1,4 % Germans
0,5 % Tatars
0,3 % Ukrainains
0,4 % Others

The all urban population of the Vilna district:
53,8 % Jews
19,6 % Belarusians
11,9 % Russians
11,5 % Poles
1,2 % Tatars
1,0 % Lithuanians
0,4 % Ukrainians
0,2 % Germans
0,4 % Others
http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/7826/69jg.gif

So as you see the majority of the province population should be Belarusians with large Lithuanian minority (both as mainly peasants, and only some very small groups Belarusians as clerks or craftsmen may be). Jews should represent majority of the craftsmen and clerks, Russians – mainly clerks and officers, Poles – aristocrats, capitalists, clerks.

The common number of the district population in the district is 363.313 people. By the religion they are:
Catholics: 237.375
Jews: 79.360
Orthodox: 36.462
Old-believers (Orthodox): 4.989
Lutherans: 2.558
Mohammedans (Muslims): 981
Calvinists: 139
Karaites (Muslims): 86
And several dozens of others

By the social strata there were (Vilna district without Vilna city itself – 208.781):
Peasants: 170.755
Townspeople (clerks and craftsmen): 33.148
Nobles: 9.513
Personal nobles and non-noble officials (clerks): 340
The privileged burgers and merchants (capitalists): 136
Priests: 109
Several hundreds others (poor, foreigners etc)

And you should add to it also Vilna city itself – 154.532:
Townspeople: 86.806
Peasants: 41.734
Nobles: 15.293
Personal nobles and non-noble officials (clerks): 4.832
The privileged burgers and merchants (capitalists): 2.838
Priests: 979
Others

And of course don’t forget to add some soldiers naturally. ;) Similar social strata could be used for other Belarusian region, except there were less clerks and craftsmen in most regions (may be only many in Vitebsk).



Then concerning the ethnic groups of Molodechno region (the Oshmiany district).

Oshmyanski district (233.558 people) according to language:
Belarusian: 186.733
Lithuanian: 8.754
Russian: 5.472
Polish: 4.070
Germans: 58
Others
So, as you see Lithuanians were in the 19th century here only a minority.

And as soon as there is no “Jewish language” definition in census in this case, the religion data can help here:

Oshmyanski uyezd according to religion:
Catholics: 132.505
Orthodox: 71.379
Jews: 28.244
Mohammedans (Muslims): 788
Old-believers (Orthodox): 519
Lutherans: 65
Others



Also some data concerning Glybokaye province (Vileyski uyezd). Vileyski uyezd (208.013 people) according to language:
Belarusian: 180.695
Polish: 5.100
Russian: 1.932
Lithuanian: 121
German: 30
Others

Vileyski uyezd according to religion:
Orthodox: 121.551
Catholics: 65.558
Jews: 19.826
Old-believers (Orthodox): 531
Mohammedans (Muslims): 405
Lutherans: 88
Others
 
Then it is absolutely wrong that Grodno, Lida, Bielostok, Bobrujsk, Gomel and Minsk provinces are all marked as 100 % Belarusian. All they have very large Jewish (10-12 %, only craftsmen or clerks) and Polish (3-5 %, mainly nobles) minorities as well as some Russian (officials mainly, clerks and officers: 2-3 %). Plus certain amount of Germans in Western Belarus (so-called “holenders” - farmers, settled here in the 17th century, or just some townspeople).

Here some data about Lida, Grodno and Bielostok districts.

Lidski uyezd (205.767 people) according to language:
Belarusian: 150.494
Lithuanian: 17.825
Polish: 9.554
Russian: 2.559
German: 49
Others

Lidski uyezd according to religion:
Catholics: 128.456
Orthodox: 51.729
Jews: 24.813
Mohammedans (Muslims): 372
Old-believers (Orthodox): 125
Lutherans: 96
Others


Grodnyenski uyezd according to ethnic groups (language):
Belarusian: 134.639
Jewish: 40.710
Russian: 12.798
Polish: 11.593
Lithuanian: 2.874
German: 627
Ukrainian: 95
Others


Bielostokski uyezd according to ethnic groups (language):
Polish: 70.149
Jewish: 58.565
Belarusian: 53.979
Russian: 13.805
German: 7.412
Ukrainian: 614
Others

The situation was much the same also in Minsk and Bobrujsk.





Then the population of Brest and Pinsk regions (Polesia) did not consider themselves Belarusians and always called themselves as “locals”, “natives” (“tuteyshye”), creating the separate ethnic group of the Polesians. If this is impossible to add this new “culture-nationality” in Viky, then they should be made Ukrainians as they language were considered as a dialect of it.

Some data on ethnic division of Brest region (by language):
Ukrainian (mainly Polesian): 140.561
Jewish: 45.397
Russian: 17.759
Polish: 8.515
Belarusian: 3.997 (!)
German: 532
Others

Same situation in Pinsk province (Pinsk and Mozyr districts), except the fact there were much more Belarusians here in compare to the Brest region (about 20-30 %).





Also Smolensk and Bryansk provinces are naturally not 100 % Russian. The Belarusians were a majority in the region during this timeframe: in the counties/districts (uyezdy) of Smolensk, Duchovshchinsk, Dorogobuzh, Krasnin, Porech, Elninsk and Roslaval).

Data on ethnic division of Smolensk governorship (1.150.541 people) by the districts:
District, Belarusians, Russians, Mixed Population (Belarusian “tuteyshye”), Others
Smolensk: 82.636, 7.611, -, 1.077
Byelsk: -, 69.648, 37.984, 263
Vyaziem: -, 71.256, 11.181, 176
Gzhat: -, 117.196, -, -, 241
Dorogobuzh: 47.855, 3.419, 21.055, 175
Duchovshchinsk: 67.106, 4.238, 13.558, 354
Elninsk: 89.304, 4.307, 11.290, 481
Krasnin: 72.977, 3.047, -, 497
Porech: 68.995, 2.202, -, 306
Roslaval: 108.266, 5.806, -, 256
Sychevsk: -, 95.159, -, 119
Yuchnovski: -, 104.047, 14.626, 110
In common: 537.149, 487.930, 121.407, 4.055

So, the Belarusians should at last be represented with 56 % of population both in Smolensk and Bryansk.


Also historically Latgalia (Pustoska and Dinaburg provinces) had a considerably large Belarusian minority (10-20 %). As well as there should be about 15 % Belarusians in Chernigov province.
 
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Unfortunately I never practiced in Victoria moding as I said and I doubt that I can fix this all myself, so if you could help to use all this data in the game mechanics that will be great.

Here is also a wonderful source (1864) concerning ethno-confessional situation in Belarusian lands, so you can fix all other data yourself (it is however in fact not so detailed and correct like the one from 1897 census): http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/3923/77jj.gif

Also check this if you understand Russian (some common data on 1897 census): http://www.demoscope.ru/weekly/2005/0187/perep04.php

And several ethnical maps I scanned just to illustrate several regions and Belarus’ common ethnic situation.

Karte der Verbreitung der Deutsche in Europa, H. Nobert, Glogau 1888
http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/7153/11og.gif

Этнографическая карта славянского мира, Л.Г. Нидерле, Москва 1905
http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/8318/25vn.gif

Länder- und Völkerkarte Europas, D. Schefer, 1918
http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/216/30jv1.gif

Weissruthenien, Volk und Land, E. Engelhardt, Berlin 1943
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/8425/45pi.gif

Карта-схема «Славянский мир», А.Ф. Риттих, Варшава 1885
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/7082/53ur.gif

Этнографическая карта западного славянства и Западной Руси, Т.Д. Флоринский, Киев 1911
http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/8573/84jf.gif

Sprachen von Mitteleuropa, Wien 1921
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/8591/98ug.gif