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  1. #1

    Russia Pop files for VIP

    New Russia Pop files for VIP

    Updated new file (30.11)

    Discussion thread:
    http://www.europa-universalis.com/fo...d.php?t=249546
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Ges; 07-06-2006 at 10:31.
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  2. #2
    V.I.P. Graphics Guru tyrel68's Avatar
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    Do you have any sources for these changes? To be included in VIP, generally you have to prov you didn't just make these up
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    V.I.P. Graphics Guru tyrel68's Avatar
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    I got some earlier data. according:

    http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/popul...ope/russiap.htm

    Yeniseisk has population of 2,650,300 in 1840. I believe that has to mean the whole of Siberia (outside other gubernias back then). If we use that (with 1,014 and 5 years) we get starting population of 2,472,300. Not that big difference compared with your figure - some 74k less. Actually I can live with that. What I'm more conserned is the big portion of russians in Siberia but that seems to be just thing that I have to live with.

    BTW: You did awesome job with those Siberian POPs
    Never mind
    Victoria Revolutions is out!!!

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  4. #4
    Update - 30.11.2005

    -Splitted big pops to get them below 40
    -added some craftsmen&clerks in moscow, st. petersburgh & minsk
    -finished belarussian files.

    References for files:

    Russia's Western Borderlands, 1710-1870
    Edward C. Thaden/Princeton University Press,1984

    History of Ukraine
    Paul Robert Magocsi/University of Washington Press,1998

    Handbuch der Geschichte WeissRusslands
    Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht,2001

    Deutsche Geschichte im Osten Europas - Russia
    Gerd Stricker/Siedler Verlag

    The Forgotten Minorities of Eastern Europa
    East-West Books,2004

    http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populs...pe/russiap.htm
    Last edited by Ges; 30-11-2005 at 08:59.
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    V.I.P. Graphics Guru tyrel68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ges
    Update - 30.11.2005

    -Splitted big pops to get them below 40
    -added some craftsmen&clerks in moscow, st. petersburgh & minsk
    -finished belarussian files.

    References for files:

    Russia's Western Borderlands, 1710-1870
    Edward C. Thaden/Princeton University Press,1984

    History of Ukraine
    Paul Robert Magocsi/University of Washington Press,1998

    Handbuch der Geschichte WeissRusslands
    Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht,2001

    Deutsche Geschichte im Osten Europas - Russia
    Gerd Stricker/Siedler Verlag

    The Forgotten Minorities of Eastern Europa
    East-West Books,2004

    http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populs...pe/russiap.htm
    Can you do one little tweak to your POP files?

    Can you fill out the 4-5 empty factories with craftsmen, not necessarily of a large size. Easiest would be convert 5 small farmers in each state to craftsmen and voila problem solved
    Victoria Revolutions is out!!!

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  6. #6
    Lt. General G-Klav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyrel68
    Can you do one little tweak to your POP files?

    Can you fill out the 4-5 empty factories with craftsmen, not necessarily of a large size. Easiest would be convert 5 small farmers in each state to craftsmen and voila problem solved
    Wouldn't make sense historically. Russia wasn't an industrialized country at this point, so it should have empty factory slots.
    If you want to fill them (I don't see why), they should be extremely small, like 500 or something.

    Also, remember that most factories in the world are wrongly placed too.
    I'd prefer to wait with it until the right factories are in the right states, or someone might forget to remove them after the factories are removed.
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    Originally posted by Darkrenown:
    "No matter what the player says the player cheats. Because he's the player he has an inherent edge. There I am following my script and he can somehow predict what I am going to do. Sometimes he pauses the game for 20 minutes to tweak his country while I have to do everything realtime. Somehow he knows about upcoming events and he can pick options other than "A" more then 5% of the time. - The AI."

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    V.I.P. Graphics Guru tyrel68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-Klav
    Wouldn't make sense historically. Russia wasn't an industrialized country at this point, so it should have empty factory slots.
    If you want to fill them (I don't see why), they should be extremely small, like 500 or something.

    Also, remember that most factories in the world are wrongly placed too.
    I'd prefer to wait with it until the right factories are in the right states, or someone might forget to remove them after the factories are removed.
    it's to do with how the AI interprets empty factories and free craftsmen.

    It throws off the balance of the system
    Victoria Revolutions is out!!!

    "Never in the field of human conflicts was so much owed by so many to so few"
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  8. #8
    Lt. General G-Klav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyrel68
    it's to do with how the AI interprets empty factories and free craftsmen.

    It throws off the balance of the system
    I see. Well, if they are small, even I could live with it, I suppose.
    Also Ges, is it OK if I change your Finnish POP file a little?

    Raising the Swedish to 14.5% and add 3 POP's (12,000 people). I'm not sure where to add them, but I'll add two to Helsinki and one to Kuopio.
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    Originally posted by Darkrenown:
    "No matter what the player says the player cheats. Because he's the player he has an inherent edge. There I am following my script and he can somehow predict what I am going to do. Sometimes he pauses the game for 20 minutes to tweak his country while I have to do everything realtime. Somehow he knows about upcoming events and he can pick options other than "A" more then 5% of the time. - The AI."

  9. #9
    Major von_Ysselstein's Avatar

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    Great work i'd say, really hope your figures and estimations are reliable but your reference are persuasive though. I would suggest to subtract some of the ashkenazic farmers in major cities and make them clergymen instead, places like shitomir, minsk and kiev had strong jewish communities including synagoges and, of course, rabbis. Shalom!

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by von_Ysselstein
    Great work i'd say, really hope your figures and estimations are reliable but your reference are persuasive though. I would suggest to subtract some of the ashkenazic farmers in major cities and make them clergymen instead, places like shitomir, minsk and kiev had strong jewish communities including synagoges and, of course, rabbis. Shalom!
    Thanks. I'll consider jewish clergymen when I'll updating files next time.
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    Major von_Ysselstein's Avatar

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    The population in total is much more than compared to VIP but this may be correct, dunno exactly. Are the pops in your file also representing only the working population?

    This is 1/4 of the real total population. 100,000 people = 25,000 pops, got it.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by von_Ysselstein
    The population in total is much more than compared to VIP but this may be correct, dunno exactly. Are the pops in your file also representing only the working population?

    Yes. That's the way pop files work in Victoria. These russia pop files are total rework so basically they don't compare in any other pop files.
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  13. #13
    Orthodox fuddy-duddy Herr Doctor's Avatar
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    I like how you represented the Eastern Belarusian provinces, but there are still are lot of things I would like to point, basing on the date of the Imperial census of 1897, and which are needed to be fixed.

    First of all regarding Vilna and Molodechno region. It is quite strange that the regions are mainly Lithuanian, when in fact they were already much slavinized in the 19th century. The data of the census in the Vilna gubernia says there were:
    56,2 % Belarusians
    17,6 % Lithuanians
    12,6 % Jews
    8,2 % Poles
    4,9 % Russians
    0,2 % Germans
    0,1 % Ukrainians
    0,1 % Tatars
    0,1 % Others

    In the Vilna uyezd (district), which are resented by Vilna province in game itself:
    63,0 % Belarusians
    19,8 % Lithuanians
    8,4 % Jews
    5,6 % Poles
    3,0 % Russians
    0,2 % Others

    And according to the results only in the city itself (only urban population):
    40,0 % Jews
    30,1 % Poles
    20,9 % Russians
    4,3 % Belarusians
    2,1 % Lithuanians
    1,4 % Germans
    0,5 % Tatars
    0,3 % Ukrainains
    0,4 % Others

    The all urban population of the Vilna district:
    53,8 % Jews
    19,6 % Belarusians
    11,9 % Russians
    11,5 % Poles
    1,2 % Tatars
    1,0 % Lithuanians
    0,4 % Ukrainians
    0,2 % Germans
    0,4 % Others
    http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/7826/69jg.gif

    So as you see the majority of the province population should be Belarusians with large Lithuanian minority (both as mainly peasants, and only some very small groups Belarusians as clerks or craftsmen may be). Jews should represent majority of the craftsmen and clerks, Russians – mainly clerks and officers, Poles – aristocrats, capitalists, clerks.

    The common number of the district population in the district is 363.313 people. By the religion they are:
    Catholics: 237.375
    Jews: 79.360
    Orthodox: 36.462
    Old-believers (Orthodox): 4.989
    Lutherans: 2.558
    Mohammedans (Muslims): 981
    Calvinists: 139
    Karaites (Muslims): 86
    And several dozens of others

    By the social strata there were (Vilna district without Vilna city itself – 208.781):
    Peasants: 170.755
    Townspeople (clerks and craftsmen): 33.148
    Nobles: 9.513
    Personal nobles and non-noble officials (clerks): 340
    The privileged burgers and merchants (capitalists): 136
    Priests: 109
    Several hundreds others (poor, foreigners etc)

    And you should add to it also Vilna city itself – 154.532:
    Townspeople: 86.806
    Peasants: 41.734
    Nobles: 15.293
    Personal nobles and non-noble officials (clerks): 4.832
    The privileged burgers and merchants (capitalists): 2.838
    Priests: 979
    Others

    And of course don’t forget to add some soldiers naturally. Similar social strata could be used for other Belarusian region, except there were less clerks and craftsmen in most regions (may be only many in Vitebsk).



    Then concerning the ethnic groups of Molodechno region (the Oshmiany district).

    Oshmyanski district (233.558 people) according to language:
    Belarusian: 186.733
    Lithuanian: 8.754
    Russian: 5.472
    Polish: 4.070
    Germans: 58
    Others
    So, as you see Lithuanians were in the 19th century here only a minority.

    And as soon as there is no “Jewish language” definition in census in this case, the religion data can help here:

    Oshmyanski uyezd according to religion:
    Catholics: 132.505
    Orthodox: 71.379
    Jews: 28.244
    Mohammedans (Muslims): 788
    Old-believers (Orthodox): 519
    Lutherans: 65
    Others



    Also some data concerning Glybokaye province (Vileyski uyezd). Vileyski uyezd (208.013 people) according to language:
    Belarusian: 180.695
    Polish: 5.100
    Russian: 1.932
    Lithuanian: 121
    German: 30
    Others

    Vileyski uyezd according to religion:
    Orthodox: 121.551
    Catholics: 65.558
    Jews: 19.826
    Old-believers (Orthodox): 531
    Mohammedans (Muslims): 405
    Lutherans: 88
    Others

  14. #14
    Orthodox fuddy-duddy Herr Doctor's Avatar
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    Then it is absolutely wrong that Grodno, Lida, Bielostok, Bobrujsk, Gomel and Minsk provinces are all marked as 100 % Belarusian. All they have very large Jewish (10-12 %, only craftsmen or clerks) and Polish (3-5 %, mainly nobles) minorities as well as some Russian (officials mainly, clerks and officers: 2-3 %). Plus certain amount of Germans in Western Belarus (so-called “holenders” - farmers, settled here in the 17th century, or just some townspeople).

    Here some data about Lida, Grodno and Bielostok districts.

    Lidski uyezd (205.767 people) according to language:
    Belarusian: 150.494
    Lithuanian: 17.825
    Polish: 9.554
    Russian: 2.559
    German: 49
    Others

    Lidski uyezd according to religion:
    Catholics: 128.456
    Orthodox: 51.729
    Jews: 24.813
    Mohammedans (Muslims): 372
    Old-believers (Orthodox): 125
    Lutherans: 96
    Others


    Grodnyenski uyezd according to ethnic groups (language):
    Belarusian: 134.639
    Jewish: 40.710
    Russian: 12.798
    Polish: 11.593
    Lithuanian: 2.874
    German: 627
    Ukrainian: 95
    Others


    Bielostokski uyezd according to ethnic groups (language):
    Polish: 70.149
    Jewish: 58.565
    Belarusian: 53.979
    Russian: 13.805
    German: 7.412
    Ukrainian: 614
    Others

    The situation was much the same also in Minsk and Bobrujsk.





    Then the population of Brest and Pinsk regions (Polesia) did not consider themselves Belarusians and always called themselves as “locals”, “natives” (“tuteyshye”), creating the separate ethnic group of the Polesians. If this is impossible to add this new “culture-nationality” in Viky, then they should be made Ukrainians as they language were considered as a dialect of it.

    Some data on ethnic division of Brest region (by language):
    Ukrainian (mainly Polesian): 140.561
    Jewish: 45.397
    Russian: 17.759
    Polish: 8.515
    Belarusian: 3.997 (!)
    German: 532
    Others

    Same situation in Pinsk province (Pinsk and Mozyr districts), except the fact there were much more Belarusians here in compare to the Brest region (about 20-30 %).





    Also Smolensk and Bryansk provinces are naturally not 100 % Russian. The Belarusians were a majority in the region during this timeframe: in the counties/districts (uyezdy) of Smolensk, Duchovshchinsk, Dorogobuzh, Krasnin, Porech, Elninsk and Roslaval).

    Data on ethnic division of Smolensk governorship (1.150.541 people) by the districts:
    District, Belarusians, Russians, Mixed Population (Belarusian “tuteyshye”), Others
    Smolensk: 82.636, 7.611, -, 1.077
    Byelsk: -, 69.648, 37.984, 263
    Vyaziem: -, 71.256, 11.181, 176
    Gzhat: -, 117.196, -, -, 241
    Dorogobuzh: 47.855, 3.419, 21.055, 175
    Duchovshchinsk: 67.106, 4.238, 13.558, 354
    Elninsk: 89.304, 4.307, 11.290, 481
    Krasnin: 72.977, 3.047, -, 497
    Porech: 68.995, 2.202, -, 306
    Roslaval: 108.266, 5.806, -, 256
    Sychevsk: -, 95.159, -, 119
    Yuchnovski: -, 104.047, 14.626, 110
    In common: 537.149, 487.930, 121.407, 4.055

    So, the Belarusians should at last be represented with 56 % of population both in Smolensk and Bryansk.


    Also historically Latgalia (Pustoska and Dinaburg provinces) had a considerably large Belarusian minority (10-20 %). As well as there should be about 15 % Belarusians in Chernigov province.
    Last edited by Herr Doctor; 06-06-2006 at 15:08.

  15. #15
    Orthodox fuddy-duddy Herr Doctor's Avatar
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    Unfortunately I never practiced in Victoria moding as I said and I doubt that I can fix this all myself, so if you could help to use all this data in the game mechanics that will be great.

    Here is also a wonderful source (1864) concerning ethno-confessional situation in Belarusian lands, so you can fix all other data yourself (it is however in fact not so detailed and correct like the one from 1897 census): http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/3923/77jj.gif

    Also check this if you understand Russian (some common data on 1897 census): http://www.demoscope.ru/weekly/2005/0187/perep04.php

    And several ethnical maps I scanned just to illustrate several regions and Belarus’ common ethnic situation.

    Karte der Verbreitung der Deutsche in Europa, H. Nobert, Glogau 1888
    http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/7153/11og.gif

    Этнографическая карта славянского мира, Л.Г. Нидерле, Москва 1905
    http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/8318/25vn.gif

    Länder- und Völkerkarte Europas, D. Schefer, 1918
    http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/216/30jv1.gif

    Weissruthenien, Volk und Land, E. Engelhardt, Berlin 1943
    http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/8425/45pi.gif

    Карта-схема «Славянский мир», А.Ф. Риттих, Варшава 1885
    http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/7082/53ur.gif

    Этнографическая карта западного славянства и Западной Руси, Т.Д. Флоринский, Киев 1911
    http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/8573/84jf.gif

    Sprachen von Mitteleuropa, Wien 1921
    http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/8591/98ug.gif

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