Quid Pro Quo

[coz1]

This is something that I have spent some time thinking about for the past few weeks. It is something of a desire/pet peeve.

stnylan has a great quote as part of his signature that reads "To view is human, to comment is devine."

It has always been an issue here that people desired comments, and many times felt that they may not be getting them. They wanted to know that their work was read and, hopefully, enjoyed. Without commenting on it - it is rather hard for them to realize either. Both stnylan and myself have written Gazette columns on this. You can read both here and here .

We form a group here - one that really thrives on the idea of the name of this thread. You scratch my back, and I scratch yours. That is how the majority of us have gained readership. Yes, there are "stars" that write such that they need not venture out to others, but most of us need that cross-over action.

Reading time, for most of us, is limited. But it is my notion that if you have time to write, then you have time to read. There are a myriad of brilliant stories, vignettes and game play oriented work that deserve your attention. If you are not giving others that time that you (yourself) desire, then there becomes a disconnect over time. This is my primary concern.

When you are starved for comments, the best way to go about getting them is to go and read other's works. Most times (as it has been in the past) they will come back and read yours. However, I see that some do not practice this. I wish they would. Don't misunderstand me - there are plenty that do. But some choose not to. And they are read...and read well. What I want is to see everyone give the effort to reading other work around here that is given to them.

I have an AAR (which is long and understandable that more people do not come on board.) But I will tell you right now that anyone that has commented on my AAR at least five times has seen me in theirs as well. Would that everyone made the same effort. I don't wish to toot my own horn, but perhaps give an example. If everyone made that effort to comment in AARs of those that made comment in their own, we would never...ever...see any issue in comments.

It's always been an issue, and is less a thought today because of the nature of the area. But as I've looked around, I see certain things that make me think. I want cross-over, yes...and I want people to see their work read. I want to see them get comments so they will keep doing the same great work that I see. Help each other out. Let them know that what they are doing is worth it for you, and for them. Make the choice to give feedback and keep people around. That is the only way this place will grow. I happen to love it, and thus my plea.

Feel free to comment here if you have thoughts on the matter. But better yet - go out and comment on an AAR that is five (or twenty) pages long that you don't really have time to read. Once you've read it, I doubt you'll be disappointed. And neither will the writer!

[prussiablue]

Well said, Coz1. Allow me to add my support to this chorus. I too am a recipient of Coz1 and Stnylan generous comments in my AAR.

I started out reading one or two AAR only and to be frank restricted to Vicky forum. As time passed, I really appreciated the comments I received and realize if others can stop by and read my story and give their comments, why can't I?

With that notion, I started to spent more times reading others AAR and no just in one forum. I am happy to say that I am currently subscribing to few others AAR in HOI2 forum and CK forum as well. You learn so much from reading others AAR. No just historical lesson but also writing methodology.

As a writer myself, I know how glad I feel everytime I receive new comment and as such I too endeavour to put in my 2-cents worth everytime I read an update. Reader feeds on the writer's story and the writer lives on the reader's comments.

If I can do it, why can't you? Start now and as Coz1 said, you won't be disappointed and neither will the writer.

[Alhazen]

Personally, I would love to be able to read and comment on many great AARs out there, as you are absolutely right people want their work to be appreciated, and it is only fair to critique those who have helped out you. However I think I may be typical of many of us, who desire to read more, but have no time due to outside constraints. My time online is limited to an hour at lunch if I'm home, and a couple hours at night before bed usually, even if it says Im logged in its just cause I leave it on all day. ...

I'm lucky just to keep up with my own AARs and leave a comment in the one or two I read regularly. In some cases, there are AARs that I have not commented in because I haven't read them through yet, such as is the case with Katapraktoi's excellent In the Footsteps of Magna Charta. A beautifully done work, I will go ahead and say right here and hope he sees it, yet I havent gotten to the last page yet and won't comment until I catch up.

[Rensslaer]

Well said, Coz!

I know that readers get more of what they want if they encourage writers... the writers often slack and falter if they don't get enough comments or expressed interest.

But I also know that writers get more attention for their own works by commenting on others. There is a cross-pollination process here! And since most writers use their signatures (.sig) to advertise their own AARs, the more they comment the more other writers and readers alike will see their ads and be intrigued!

And naturally, I can't let this opportunity pass to promote the Fan of the Week thread, where all of us can encourage those commenting readers who keep the fora going!

One more thing... I have a 42 page AAR, and I know others have really long ones too. I know for certain that there is an impression among writers that it's impolite and improper to comment without having read the whole AAR. As a (long) writer, I'd like to emphasize that I love getting comments from people who are only part-way through! Just note at the beginning of your post that you're not finished (so people will understand), and comment away! I doubt I'm the only one who feels this way.

Rensslaer

[Sir Humphrey]

Maybe if there was some way to promote ones own work rather than in this fashion (I am not saying that it is a bad way of doing it), it should be promoted as well. As such, the current system has one fatal flaw, in that you end up having a tit for tat barrage of useless or forced comments, in that people rather than commenting for heir own ends, rather than anythign else. However, cross promotion is indeed one of the only current systems available.

[canadiancreed]

I endorse this idea. (everything else that I would have stated has already been done)

[Oranje Verzet]

I agree on your idea that it enhances the pleasure and is one of the best ways to keep eachother writing and support eachother. For myself i try to read work from the commenter as well, even with some delay at times.

But there is also another factor that can change the amount of people that read. Those are the people who read AARs only and dont write them. A few months ago i started like that, with only reading. I even didnt comment on them, just browse through them and follow the ones i liked. I never knew that the writers wanted people to comment just to let them know, 'He im reading your AAR its good' or maybe a bit more substance in the comment, but still the knowledge of people reading your AAR and giving comments. I started commenting when i had questions and so i think things evolve like that, but maybe there is a way to entice those people to comment, if they even want to do so. Because I do know there are a lot of people reading AARs but not posting, not only from my own experience, also looking at the views a page gets. Furthermore, i have scientific prove as i see how many ppl DL my documentAARy. Is there a way to entice ppl to comment when they read something. I think first of all, state this in your post, so that new readers see that and might get tempted. And of course there are otherways like the fan of the week and more.

[anonymous4401]

Aye, when it is a choice between reading and commenting on 20 'light' AARs and on doing the same for 3 'heavy' ones, the former is always easier, and requires less thought. Thus it is quite tempting for me to spend the time I have to read and comment on a large quantity of easy reading rather than a small selection of deep works. There are only three or four deep AARs that I can recall off-hand that I comment on, and about two dozen AARs that are much less so that I also keep up on. The former should really be tripled, for there are many deep AARs that I have always wanted to read through and comment on (coz1's Into the West, Semi-Lobster's Wallachian AAR, Hajji Giray's Bohemia AAR again) but the task always seems to daunting at the end.

[Sir Humphrey]

I try and comment, and if I do, I dont expect whoever is writing to comment in mine out of sheer bloody mindedness - only if they read it, and think that they should comment on it, rather than out of some social necessity to do it. More freewill than anything else.

[Sir Humphrey]

I try and read as much as possible, and yes it does ecnourage a community sense (there is nothing worse than having no comments), but I think there has to be an alternative to this sort of' patronage' (in relation to the Roman sense of the word 'Patron'). In other words, all the small writers should attempt to court, and then recieve the patronage of the bigger writers the so called "stars". For example, that is like me, posting in one of your AARs and badgering you over an Instanrt to post comments in my AARs. Maybe that is an extreme, but that is still a valid example. Then you get a class system. Those writers who recieve the patronage will remain low in the chain until they manage to get it through to the next level, the so called "Aaristocracy", and then people will start recieving patronage from them. However, there cannot be soley patrons in that system, and so you will always have a permanent underclass of writers.

[Oranje Verzet]

I try and comment, and if I do, I dont expect whoever is writing to comment in mine out of sheer bloody mindedness - only if they read it, and think that they should comment on it, rather than out of some social necessity to do it. More freewill than anything else.

Agree on the freewill of course, feeling a social pressure to post would be total absurdism. I think if you show your interest through posting in an AAR, you get much more in return through the connection with the writer. So if im interested its normal for me to post and respond to the piece. For me this also meant sending an update to a good fan, who couldnt download it. And fans who sent information to help you built the piece is all part when you post and show interest, helping eachother out.

[Sir Humphrey]

Well the extreme of this is the 'honours patronage' system.

[cthulhu]

People read and comment on AARs because they're entertained, to encourage the writer to continue, and to ask questions about the story. There is an element of courtesy of course: As a writer you should certainly take the time to read the work of people who comment on your story, and if their work is fun/good/entertaining, you follow that story and write comments.

[Oranje Verzet]

People read and comment on AARs because they're entertained, to encourage the writer to continue, and to ask questions about the story. There is an element of courtesy of course: As a writer you should certainly take the time to read the work of people who comment on your story, and if their work is fun/good/entertaining, you follow that story and write comments.

Agree


Sir Humphrey: From what i understand you do not want patronage, but i kinda get lost in your story. You want to create an alternative?

[The Yogi]

As an extremely poor commentator, I can only say that NO, I don't have time to read (more than two or three favourites) and write. In fact, I barely have time to write, except in periods when it becomes an irrepresible urge and takes precedence over everything else including work (may my employer never read this!).

[RossN]

I really should read (and comment especially) more than I do, but I confess I do find very long AAR's daunting (though I prefer reading them when I actually do get around to, er, reading them).

[CatKnight]

When I see a new AAR that's already very long I do tend to get hm... intimidated? However you can usually figure out at least the gist of what's happening if you read the last page or so of posts. Enough to talk reasonably intelligently anyway.

Coz is right of course, and I've been slacking lately: If you have time to write, you've time to read. If you've time to read, you have time to drop a few words of encouragement.

Certainly, as I think Humphrey was saying, people shouldn't comment just for 'advertising' or to set up some sort of reciprocity. I can certainly snoop around though, and comment on the AARs I do like.

I think the past few weeks, which have been a little disheartening IMHO, have shown once more that if our community's to thrive....it's up to us. Looking at the current status of another forum where the link between reading and comments has been severed seems to bear out my statement.

[Semi-Lobster]

As somebody who is deeply indebted to coz1 and stnylan's comments I agree that if you are reading an AAR, you realy should comment, it's not even necessary to eve comment on the AAR, just know that people are reading is very important. I admit, I'm not the AAR reader I used to be, I'm unable to read as many AAR's as I wish but I am making an effort to comment more now for the past few weeks now. I enourage others to do the same for their fellow AAR writers.

One of the things I've noticedas a rather eclectic writer is that there seems to be som difficulty with cross-games AAR (I'm not talking about conversion AAR's where you play EUII then export to Vicky), for example, I've noticed that many in the HoI2 AAR forum do not respond to AAR's from other games (I'm not pointing any fingers or making any accusations, I chalk it up to simply people not owning the games the AAR's are from).

[stnylan]

Obviously this is a topic where my views are in my sig - if not quite on my sleeve And I entirely agree with CatKnight, these subfora are largely what we make them, and given recent events I think it would be very dangerous to take them for granted.

I do not think that leaving a comment in my AAR, or me leaving a comment in someone else's AAR, means either of us is obligated to read the others'. For a start some people might just plain not like what my AAR is, the game its being played, or whatever. That's all fine by me. Likewise many people might simply not have the time, which is also absolutely fine. There are AARs I don't read for both reasons too. However, if I am looking to start reading a new AAR I will always consider those who have commentated in my own before those who have not, especially if they have begun to lengthen. I am sure that I am not the only one for whom that is true.

The length issue is a taxing one. There are plenty of AARs here I would love to read, but the length stalls me. And by length, personally even 3-4 pages can seem a bit of a hurdle, let alone the 30+ epics that keep on growing. That said, on the occasions when I have plunged into a longer AAR I have been richly rewarded, so therein lies my upcoming New Year's Resolution.

Naturally though I hold that, particularly as a writAAR who wants comments yourself, if you read you should post - even if it just two or three quick words. They are the fuel that keeps the fire burning.

@ Sir Humphrey: I have to say I am unconvinced that the patronage scenario exists in the fora as you describe in any large-scale. Of course, newer writers are frequently inspired by more established writers, and I think it is entirely natural that an established writer, on seeing an AAR by one of his/her more frequent commentatAARs, would consider it only courteous to have a look. That is a scenario I have seen played out a number of times, but I don't call that patronage. I call that something very akin to friendship, if indeed it is not in fact friendship pure and simple.

@Semi-Lobster: I think it is fairly well recognised phenomenon that HoI has always been a little apart from the other games, though I put this down simply to the fact that there will be rather more HoI-ers who are only prinipally interested in WW2 than there are people only principally interested in, say, the Victorian era. The nature of the beast.

[VILenin]

Indeed, while the scenario of patronage that Sir Humphrey gives us would be quite a disturbing way for AARland to go I don' think it's quite there yet. There is a difference between a novice writer simply posting in a thread than actively harassing (like spamming w/ PM) a writAAR. If this were hapenning to anybody I would recommend talking to a Mod because that sort of thing is unnacceptable. On the other hand, I agree with what stynlan is saying about the effect of an established writAAR posting in a novice's thread can have. I remember when I first started my AAR it was really encouraging to see those people with high post counts replying to what I'd written. Later on you develop a sort of rapport with those who follow your work and this I do think encourages you to go out and read theirs in return. As someone once said, comments are the lifeblood of the forum and sometimes a "good job" is all the encouragement an aspiring writAAR needs.