OOBs

[StephenT]

attachment = heavy artillery

If we assume a heavy artillery brigade attachment equals two Foot Artillery Regiments, that means 64 150mm guns! Somehow I doubt that's realistic... Perhaps instead give Tsingtao a level of fortification?

(On mobilisation, incidentally, Germany had 24 such regiments, which would mean 12 divisions with heavy artillery brigades).

[Kaiser Franz]

well...i meant that they had two heavy Naval artillery batteries with them, but a level of fortification should be good enough...

[Kaiser Bill]

well...i meant that they had two heavy Naval artillery batteries with them, but a level of fortification should be good enough...

german naval artillery at Tsingdao was of a very mixed nature, and although reasonably suppliedwith ammunition, it did not prove entirely adequate for the seige.

In essence it was deployed in a series of forts leading to the port, most of which were sytematically destroyed by superior Japanses firepower.

Fort level 2 should be sufficient. Certainly deploying more than a single counter there would be grossly disproportionate.

[Kaiser Franz]

indeed...

[jova]

I am correcting the Serbian OOB given by Oksel. I guess it can't do any harm.

Serbia was divided into 5 divisional areas (if you don't count the territory gainedin the Balkan Wars) - Dunavska, Drinska, Sumadijska, Moravska and Timocka. Each area was giving two inf divisions - class I division with soldiers age 21-31 and class II division with soldiers age 31-38. Olders were class III, but weren't forming divisions. There was one cav division (Konjicka). Because the number of recruits was bigger than the number needed to fill these units, additional were formed - Kombinovana (combined) divizija class I, "odreds" of various size - in average, 3 or 4 odreds matched 1 division. The armies were as follows:
1st Army, located south of Belgrade: Timocka division class I, Timocka II, Dunavska II, Moravska II, Konjicka.
2nd Army, located near Arandjelovac: Dunavska I, Moravska I, Sumadijska I, Kombinovana I.
3rd Army, located near Valjevo: Drinska I, Drinska II, 3 class I puks (brigades), 2 class III puks, Obrenovacki, Sabacki, Loznicki, Jadarski and Ljubovijski odred.
Uzice Army, located near Uzice: Sumadijska II, Uzicka brigada, Limski odred.

Vardarska, Bregalnicka, Ibarska and Kosovska divs weren't formed in 1914. The first two were formed in 1915.

[jova]

I have created the Serbian OOB file. Where to post it?

[Allenby]

I have created the Serbian OOB file. Where to post it?

Here, I suppose.

We'll see how it compares with our TGW OOB, which we obtained from Ellis & Cox's World War I Databook.

[jova]

I haven't written unit's id's, province numbers and models (marked this with ?)

landunit = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "Vrhovna Komanda"
leader = 50102 #Putnik
location = ? #Novi Pazar

division = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "Stab Vrhovne Komande"
type = hq
model = ?
strength = 50
max_strength = 50
extra = artillery
brigade_model = ?
}
}
###
landunit = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "1. Armija"
leader = 50103 #Bojovic
location = ? #Beograd

division = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "Timocka divizija I poziva"
type = mechanized #Guards
model = ?
strength = 100
}

division = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "Timocka divizija II poziva"
type = infantry
model = ?
strength = 90
max_strength = 90
}

division = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "Moravska divizija II poziva"
type = infantry
model = ?
strength = 90
max_strength = 90
}

division = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "Dunavska divizija II poziva"
type = infantry
model = ?
strength = 90
max_strength = 90
}

division = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "Konjicka divizija"
type = cavalry
model = ?
strength = 100
}
}
###
landunit = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "2. Armija"
leader = 50101 #Stepanovic
location = ? #Beograd

division = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "Moravska divizija I poziva"
type = mechanized
model = ?
strength = 100
}

division = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "Sumadijska divizija I poziva"
type = mechanized
model = ?
strength = 100
}

division = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "Kombinovana divizija I poziva"
type = mechanized
model = ?
strength = 100
}

division = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "Dunavska divizija I poziva"
type = mechanized
model = ?
strength = 100
}
}
###
landunit = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "3. Armija"
leader = 50104 #Jurisic-Sturm
location = ? #Uzice

division = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "Drinska divizija I poziva"
type = mechanized
model = ?
strength = 100
}

division = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "Drinska divizija II poziva"
type = infantry
model = ?
strength = 90
max_strength = 90
}

division = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "4./5./7. prekobrojni puk I poziva"
type = mechanized
model = ?
strength = 80
max_strength = 80
}

division = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "9./10. puk III poziva"
type = motorized #class III
model = ?
strength = 50
max_strength = 50
}

division = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "Obrenovacki odred"
type = infantry
model = ?
strength = 50
max_strength = 50
}

division = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "Sabacki/Loznicki odred"
type = motorized
model = ?
strength = 50
max_strength = 50
}

division = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "Jadarski/Ljubovijski odred"
type = motorized
model = ?
strength = 50
max_strength = 50
}
}
###
landunit = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "Uzicka Vojska"
leader = 50105 #Bozanovic
location = ? #Uzice

division = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "Sumadijska divizija II poziva"
type = infantry
model = ?
strength = 90
max_strength = 90
}

division = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "Uzicka brigada"
type = infantry
model = ?
strength = 50
max_strength = 50
}

division = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "Limski odred"
type = motorized
model = ?
strength = 50
max_strength = 50
}
}
###
landunit = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "Branicevski odred"
leader = ?
location = ? #Nis

division = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "Branicevski odred"
type = infantry
model = ?
strength = 30
max_strength = 30
}
}
###
landunit = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "Krajinski odred"
leader = 50135 #Dimitrijevic
location = ? #Nis

division = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "Krajinski odred"
type = infantry
locked = yes
model = ?
strength = 30
max_strength = 30
}
}
###
landunit = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "Vlasinski odred"
leader = 50136 #Plazina
location = ? #Nis

division = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "Vlasinski odred"
type = infantry
locked = yes
model = ?
strength = 50
max_strength = 50
}
}
###
landunit = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "Trupe Novih Oblasti"
leader = 50139 #Popovic
location = ? #Stip

division = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "Vardarska divizija"
type = infantry
locked = yes
model = ?
strength = 50
max_strength = 90
}

division = {
id = { type = ? id = ? }
name = "Bregalnicka divizija"
type = infantry
locked = yes
model = ?
strength = 50
max_strength = 90
}
}

[jova]

Thank you for correcting me jova.

Nema na čemu.

[jova]

Serbian Class I infantry units (those with "I poziva" in their name) could be Guards Infantry, as in TGW, to represent their level of training and experience.

BTW, that OOB was for the beginning of August 1914, right after the mobilisation. If you need OOB for any other date, I can easily provide it.

[Allenby]

Many of these units will have to be listed as 'dormant' on the basis that we have mobilisation events for the Serbian Army, which means that in January 1914, only her regular divisions are available for immediate use.

Also, it may be necessary to alter the quantity and size of the units that Serbia forms when war does break out. If, for example, Serbia overruns parts of Austro-Hungarian controlled Bosnia and Croatia nine out of ten times, then it would probably be wise to not model those additional brigades...

[StephenT]

In TGW we had the January 1914 (unmobilised) OOB, with a mobilisation event giving Serbia six extra divisions when they went to war. A quick comparison shows that our current OOB lists all the Class I units you include, although the names are a bit different: "1. 'Timocka' Pesadijska Divizija" instead of "Timocka divizija I poziva", for example.

One question in my mind is all the extra sub-divisional units you include. (Which aren't listed in the Ellice & Cox Databook used for the majority of other OOBs). While I don't doubt that they existed, I wonder whether including them would be unbalancing to the game if we haven't also included such units for other countries? I've always assumed that a country's stored manpower points represents reserve, garrison and training formations that can be drawn on to fill out front-line units.

Alternatively, perhaps some of these units, especially the ones stationed in southern Serbia, should be represented as immobile Garrison units?

[Shadow Knight]

I agree with StephenT on this I think for now they should be included as Garrison units and if with play testing we decide they need to something else we can always model them as something appropriate (with perhaps locking them into place/correct province and having an event that releases them).

[jova]

Yes, units in southern Serbia can be garrison units (they actually weren't in combat until 1915, they were there to guard the borders).
Some divisions really had their artillery brigades. Howewer, Austro-Hungarians had more artillery than Serbs, so if you are not going to give artillery brigades to them, don't give them to Serbs niether.

[StephenT]

I've been thinking about artillery brigades. I think we can take it as read that all normal infantry divisions already include their standard artillery factored into the basic unit strengths - that's mostly what makes them better than militia divisions. Therefore, we should only allocate additional brigades for guns over and above the standard amount.

A look through Bank's Atlas and Haythornthwaite's Sourcebook gives the following figures:

Standard artillery complement:
France: 36 guns per division
Austria-Hungary: 42 guns per division
Russia: 48 guns per division
Germany: 72 guns per division
Britain: 76 guns per division

Additional artillery at Corps and Army level:
Germany: 24 Foot Artillery regiments
Austria-Hungary: 7 Field Artillery and 1 Super-Heavy Artillery regiments
Italy: 3 regiments
Japan: ?6 regiments, but that was later in the war.
France: none
Britain: none
Russia: ?? few, if any.

If we assume 1 brigade = 2 regiments, then I propose the following:

Germany: 2 Super-Heavy and 10 normal Artillery Brigades. Plus, to account for the fact that German divisions had twice as much artillery as most other countries, add an extra 10 Artillery and 15 Heavy Weapons brigades.

Austria-Hungary: 3 Artillery brigades, 1 Super-Heavy Artillery brigade. This latter should be attached to a division which is on loan as an expeditionary force to Germany, located in Aachen.

Italy: 1 Artillery Brigade.
Japan: 2 Artillery Brigades
Britain: On the same principle as Germany, add 2 Artillery and 3 Heavy Weapons brigades.
France - 8 Heavy Weapons brigades (to represent all those soixante-quinze field guns), but no artillery.

I'm assuming that in 1914 only the Austrian Skoda 305mm mortars and German 'Big Bertha' artillery counts as Super-Heavy.

Comments?

[jova]

It sounds good to me.
Serbian class I divisions had 45 guns, class II 25 guns.
Serbian High Command had heavy & siege artillery as a reserve, so I guess that it would be ok to give them 1 artillery brigade?

[Allenby]

Comments?

Should these simply be placed in the force pool of each country, or would it be more sensible to distribute them selectively to certain divisions?

For example, for Germany, it might be considered that the bulk (approximately seven-eighths) of these artillery attachments should be situated in the west at the beginning of the game, with the rest attached to divisions that were historically sent to East Prussia. Furthermore, if Britain's attachments aren't specifically deployed with a certain division, then the AI might erroneously hand one of them to the Aden Brigade as opposed to 1st Division.

[StephenT]

Should these simply be placed in the force pool of each country, or would it be more sensible to distribute them selectively to certain divisions?

I'd distribute them, for the reasons you suggest. For the Germans and British, one per Regular Army corps seems about right. Plus, as jova suggests we could allocate an artillery brigade to HQ units for countries like Serbia or Russia which did have a significant artillery arm, but not lots of "spare" regiments not assigned to divisions.

[Royaliste]

I have lots of pdfs that show Soviet, AFSR, Polish, Landeswehr at Cēsis and Riga, Latvian, Estonian & Freikorps OBBs for the Baltics in 1919 and 1920 but I have no idea how to post them here. If anyone wants this stuff let me know how to post it. I also happen to have found out what the Estonian naval assets were during the wars Estonia fought with Latvia against both German units and the Soviets and it’s a follows:

Estonian Navy In the Latvian theater 1919-1920:

1 Lennuk Class Destroyer: 5 x 102mm, 1 x 37mm guns
1 Wambola class Destroyer 4 x 102mm, 1 x 37mm guns
2 Lembit class Gunboat 2 x 120mm, 4 x 75mm, 1 x 37mm guns
2 Tasuja class Gunboat 1 x 130mm, 2 x 75mm guns
1 Kalev class Minesweeper 1 x 37mm gun
1 Olev class Minesweeper 1 x 37mm gun

[jova]

I've edited Serbian OOB for August 1914 (prev. page).
Artillery brigades deleted, there is only one attached to HQ.
Now class I units are guards infantry (light armor, if I'm not mistaking), class II are infantry and class III are militia.
Units in southern Serbia are locked (they should be unlocked in 1915). Krajinski and Vlasinski odred in Nis are also locked. I guess locked units are immobile, but can fight if attacked.

Since there are mobilisation events, perhaps this OOB can be used for a battlescenario. I will also write OOB for January 1914.