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Thread: OOBs

  1. #1
    ex-Great War[lord] Johan Elisson's Avatar
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    1914: OOBs

    With more unit types available and the possibility to set a max strenght, the main changes to the OOBs will be to decide which divisions that will be what type, and also adding smaller units that we left out or lumped together.

    Until we have decided what unit types we will use it'll be hard to implement these changes, but once that is done I'd love to take the task of doing it.

    /Johan
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    I am the Walrus Kaiser Franz's Avatar
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    Ukrainian armies

    ok here they are: these were not all around at the same time, some were re-organised but others created after 1918 etc etc

    Dnipro Insurgent Division
    Chornomorska (black sea) Division
    Selianska (peasant) Division
    Zaporizhska Sich
    Volyhynian Division
    1st Galician Regiment
    Czech Ruthenian Regiment
    Serduik Division
    3rd 'Iron' Rifles Division
    1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th,11th and 12th Rifle Divisions
    1st Zuporizhska Division
    2nd Volynska Division
    3rd Zalizna Division
    4th Kyivska Division
    5th Khersonska Division
    6th Sichovykh Striltsiv Division


    Makhno's army:
    Ukrainian Insurrectionary Army
    had 25,000 men at its peak, altough the names are unknown one Division was named the 'Iron' Division.
    at least 1 Cavalry unit was named - Batkova Chortova Sotnia (Chiefs Hell squadron.


    just as a question..do you need the OOB's for the White Rusian armies and the armies of the Western Ukrianian Republic?

  3. #3
    Liberté, egalité, fraternité StephenT's Avatar
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    Many thanks!

    That's quite a sizable army for Ukraine - how many starting divisions would you give them as:
    a) A German puppet
    b) An independent nation
    ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiser Franz
    just as a question..do you need the OOB's for the White Rusian armies and the armies of the Western Ukrianian Republic?
    The more information the better: our OOBs for the Former Tsarist empire are quite approximate and sketchy at the moment. (Based largely on guesswork)

  4. #4
    I am the Walrus Kaiser Franz's Avatar
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    Puppet of Germany = 60,000 men
    Independant = 40,000 men, 100,000 guerrillas

    White Russian armies and units.

    Northern Corps - Estonia (20,000 men)
    1st White Estonian Division
    2nd White Estonian Division

    Baltische Landeswehr - Lithuania/Latvia (30,000 men)
    Eiserne Division
    Baltische Landwehr
    Deutsche Legion

    Detached Corps - North Russia (20,000 men)

    1st Detached Rifle Division
    2nd Detached Rifle Division

    North West Army - North West Ukarine (60,000 men)
    1st Infantry Division
    2nd Infantry Division
    3rd Infantry Division
    4th Infantry Division
    5th Infantry Division
    6th Infantry Division

    Volunteer Army - Northern Ukraine (50,000 men)
    1st Infantry Division
    2nd Infantry Division
    3rd Infantry Division
    4th Infantry Division
    1st Cavalry Division

    1st Army Corps - West Ukarine (30,000 men)
    Drozdovska Infantry Division
    1st Cavalry Division
    2nd Cavalry Divisions

    2nd Army Corps - East Ukarine (30,000 men)
    13th Infantry Division
    34th Infantry Division
    Tersko-Astrakhanska Cavalry

    Composite Cavalry Corps - South-East Ukraine (20,000 men)
    Kuban Cavalry Division
    3rd Cavalry Division

    Donosky Corps - South-East Ukraine (30,000 men)
    1st Donskaya Horse Division
    2nd Donskaya Horse Division
    3rd Donskaya Horse Division

    Army of the Don - Western Ukraine (80,000 men)
    1st Infantry Division
    2nd Infantry Division
    3rd Infantry Division
    4th Infantry Division
    1st Cavalry Division
    2nd Cavalry Division
    3rd Cavalry Division
    4th Cavalry Division

    Lower Volga Detachment - Lower Volga region (20,000 men)
    Astrakhan Cossack Division
    3rd Kuban Cossack Division

    Trans-Volga Detcahment - Upper Volga region (10,000 men)
    Kavkazkaya Rifle Division

    1st Uralsky Corps - Ural Region (50,000 men)
    1st Uralsky Cossack Division
    2nd Uralsky Cossack Division
    3rd Uralsky Cossack Division
    1st Uralsky Infantry Division
    3rd Iletzkaya Division

    Army of Turkestan
    Zakaspiyskana Composite Division
    Turkestan Rifle Division
    Cavalry Division
    1st and 2nd Basmanchi - Uzbek irregulars

    2nd Iletzky Cossack - Ural region
    3rd Uralskaya Cav. Division
    5th Iletzkaya Division
    plus several detcahed units

    Admiral Kolchaks Army of Siberia
    The army was formed in Novonikolayevsk (Novosibirsk)

    1st Middle Siberian Corps
    1st and 2nd Siberian Rifle Div's

    2nd Stepnoy Siberian Corps
    3rd, 4th and 5th Siberian Rifle Div's

    3rd Uralsky Army Corps
    7th Uralskaya Rifle Div
    2nd Czech In. Regt
    1st, 2nd and 3rd Orenburg Cossack Regt's

    Composite Corps
    3rd Irkutskaya Siberian Rifle Div
    15th Omskaya Siberian Rifle Div
    Votkinskaya Div
    Krasnoufimskaya Brigade




    I'll check for any other anti-Red forces etc and the Allied interventionists..
    Last edited by Kaiser Franz; 09-02-2005 at 11:56.

  5. #5
    I am the Walrus Kaiser Franz's Avatar
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    Allied interventionists and non-White anti-bolshevik forces:

    Murmansk and Archangel
    8,000 British
    5,000 Americans
    1,300 Italians
    1,200 Serbs,Czechs and Poles

    Vladivostock and Far East
    Japanese 5th,12th and 14th Infantry Divisions (75,000 strong)
    US Expeditionary Force ( US marines etc, 9,000 Strong)
    Czechoslovak Legion (60,000 strong)
    1,500 Britsih
    1,500 Italians
    1,100 French

    The Cuacases
    13th and 39th Britsih Infantry Divisions (in the city of Baku)

    *************


    Non Allied anti-bolshevik countries.

    Bukara or Khivan Armies
    They were aided by Enver Pasha who fled Turkey and fought for the Turkmen, he was killed while fighting for them...
    9,000 Basmachi in Turkmenistan (irregulars 1 attachment)
    3,000 men of the Topchi-Bashi Militia (irregulars)
    300 men of the elite Turkish Regiment (guard infantry)

    Azerbaijan (Satellite of Turkey)
    Not sure, but it had some help from Turkey and Germany.
    Mainly irregulars

    Georgia
    1st and 2nd Infantry Divisions
    1st Sukhumi Border Regt.
    2nd Border Regt.

  6. #6
    I am the Walrus Kaiser Franz's Avatar
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    while i'm ona roll..would you like the size of the Red Army around 1918? I can't give many specific units, but i can give how many, some specific units and different Corps etc.

  7. #7
    Admiral of the Fleet Shadow Knight's Avatar
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    Might as well. Got any ideas on things like brigade attachments (such as artillery, engineers, etc.)
    f.k.a. shdwknightx
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  8. #8
    I am the Walrus Kaiser Franz's Avatar
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    Here is almost all the knowledge you need to create the Red Army, some of it might not trsnafer well in HOI2, but you can use the info you need, some of the units are probably not easy to represent in HoI2.

    well as for the Reds its hard to say, but by April 1918 there were at least 155-200,000 men in the Red army. The Bolsheviks idea was to create a total of 58 Infantry Divisions and other specialsts and technical troops.

    As for Fronts here they are (they are highre than an army) these would be HQ's in my idea

    Northern Front - Volodga-Archangel area
    Ukrainian Front - Ukraine
    Southern Front - Ukraine to Azov
    Turkestan Front - Turkestan
    Caspian-Caucasian Front - Caspian region and the Caucasus
    Eastern Front - Urals and Siberia

    Infantry

    Army/Field Army (Armiya)
    A Field Army consisted of around 2 to 9 Infantry Divisions this was around 12,000 to 50,000 men

    Infantry Units:
    In 1918 all Infantry Divisions fighting for the Red Army were designated as Rifle Divisions, or Strelkovy Diviziya. It had 1,657 Officers, 56,668 Other ranks, 382 Machine Guns and 116 Artillery peices, but most Divisons were of around 15,000 men instead.

    Cavalry

    Cavalry Armies:
    At the time in 1918 there were only a few Cavalry armies. There were 3 Cavalry Armies: the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Cavalry Armies.

    Cavalry Divisions:
    A Red Army Cavalry Division comprised of 3 Cavalry Brigades and 4 Horse Batteries. Full strength should have been around 9,499 men and 10,210 horses. In practise it was usually between 3,000 and 8,000 men


    Specialist Forces

    Air Forces:
    The Red Army airforce in early 1918 consisted of around 113 men with 6 planes.

    Armour:
    There were armopured car detachments but they were foten very small. In 1920 the Red Army set up the first Avtotankovy Otryads or Auto-Tank detcahments, they had around 81 to 113 men. Most of their armour was captured from the Whites and therefore of Allied make, the majority were British with some rare French vehicles appearing here and there.

    Paramilitary security forces:
    The Voyenizirovannaya Okhrana or VOkhr was formed in late 1919, their job was to gaurd roads, factories, bridges, waterways and railways that were strategic. By early 1920 there were 105,000 men in the VOkhr.

    Internal Service Troops:
    The Voyska Vnutrenny Sluzhi or VnuS were created in early 1920. Their responsiblities were to gaurd POW camps, communictaion networks, and to convoy anti-Bolshevic elements to their POW camps.

    Border Guards:
    The Pogranichniye Voyska were established in May 1918 to defend the Bolshevik borders from attacks from whites etc. But it they never really did their job properly till the wars had finished and the Soviet borders were re-instated.


    Specialist Equipment:
    Aircraft:
    The Reds used many planes, 2 thirds were foreign made. 50 percent were French Nieuport fighters and French Farman Bombers. Russian made fighters were rare, but still served. They were the Ilya Muromets and the Lebed-12 Fighter and the C-20 fighter plane.

    Armour:
    The majority were British Mk.I and French Renault FT-17's but they were only avaible when captured from the Whites.


    Hope this info is helpfull to you.

  9. #9
    I am the Walrus Kaiser Franz's Avatar
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    just as a question...but are there any OOB's your not sure of for TGW? just so if i knew...then i could try to help out...

    EDIT: would it help if i told you the numbers of Aircraft the Whites had and what makes they were? and possibly White armoured vehicles as well?

  10. #10
    Custom User Title Allenby's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiser Franz
    just as a question...but are there any OOB's your not sure of for TGW? just so if i knew...then i could try to help out...
    It's difficult to say at this stage. We coped admirably last time for 1914 and 1918 OOBs, mostly because we are armed with Ellis & Cox's excellent book. If you have any more details as to the make up of the forces in Eastern Europe from 1917 onwards, then we would be happy to see them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiser Franz
    EDIT: would it help if i told you the numbers of Aircraft the Whites had and what makes they were? and possibly White armoured vehicles as well?
    That would be helpful, yes.

  11. #11
    Liberté, egalité, fraternité StephenT's Avatar
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    Do we assume that one air unit is 100 aircraft, as we did with TGW? I have to say I've not seen a figure for this quoted in the manual anywhere.

    A tank brigade attachment would be 60-120 tanks historically.

  12. #12
    Admiral of the Fleet Shadow Knight's Avatar
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    I'd say go with a 100 planes until at some point we hear differently (not that I expect of course), unless you think 50 planes is more appropriate.
    f.k.a. shdwknightx
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  13. #13
    I am the Walrus Kaiser Franz's Avatar
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    would you like some info on the Chinese army by about 1911/12? mainly numbers and a few named units, but it would be useful.

  14. #14
    Custom User Title Allenby's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiser Franz
    would you like some info on the Chinese army by about 1911/12? mainly numbers and a few named units, but it would be useful.
    I don't suppose there's any harm in you posting them. However, I would be slightly cautious - the political situation in China in 1914 was far removed from what had been the case in 1911 and 1912. Units under the command of the government in one year are likely to be under the direction of a different general the next.

  15. #15
    ex-Great War[lord] Johan Elisson's Avatar
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    First out with a revised Swedish Land OOB for January 1914:

    Code:
    landunit = {
        id = { type = 53111 id = 1 }
        name = "I. arméfördelningen"
        location = 93 # Malmö
        # leader = [Axel von Matern]
        division = {
            id = { type = 53111 id = 2 }
            name = "I. arméfördelningen"
            strength = 20
            type = infantry
            model = 1
            # extra = [Cavalry Section]
        }
    }
    
    landunit = {
        id = { type = 53111 id = 3 }
        name = "II. arméfördelningen"
        location = 100 # Norrköping
        # leader = [Lars Tingsten]
        division = {
            id = { type = 53111 id = 4 }
            name = "II. arméfördelningen"
            strength = 20
            type = infantry
            model = 1
        }
    }
    
    landunit = {
        id = { type = 53111 id = 5 }
        name = "III. arméfördelningen"
        location = 99 # Skövde
        # leader = [Philip von Platen]
        division = {
            id = { type = 53111 id = 6 }
            name = "III. arméfördelningen"
            strength = 20
            type = infantry
            model = 1
            # extra = [Artillery Section]
        }
    }
    
    landunit = {
        id = { type = 53111 id = 7 }
        name = "IV. arméfördelningen"
        location = 101 # Stockholm
        # leader = [Carl Jungstedt]
        division = {
            id = { type = 53111 id = 8 }
            name = "IV. arméfördelningen"
            strength = 20
            type = infantry
            model = 1
            # extra = [Artillery Section]
        }
    }
    
    landunit = {
        id = { type = 53111 id = 9 }
        name = "V. arméfördelningen"
        location = 101 # Stockholm
        # leader = [Olof Malm]
        division = {
            id = { type = 53111 id = 10 }
            name = "V. arméfördelningen"
            strength = 20
            type = infantry
            model = 1
            # extra = [Engineer Section]
        }
    }
    
    landunit = {
        id = { type = 53111 id = 11 }
        name = "VI. arméfördelningen"
        location = 119 # Östersund
        # leader = [Johan Wrangel]
        division = {
            id = { type = 53111 id = 12 }
            name = "VI. arméfördelningen"
            strength = 20
            type = infantry
            model = 1
        }
    }
    
    landunit = {
        id = { type = 53111 id = 13 }
        name = "Bodens trupper"
        location = 127 # Luleå
        # leader = [Per Bergenzaum]
        division = {
            id = { type = 53111 id = 14 }
            name = "Bodens trupper"
            strength = 10
                max_strenght = 30
            type = infantry
            model = 1
        }
    }
    
    landunit = {
        id = { type = 53111 id = 15 }
        name = "Gotlands trupper"
        location = 196 # Gotland
        # leader = [Erik Bergström]
        division = {
            id = { type = 53111 id = 16 }
            name = "Gotlands trupper"
            strength = 5
                max_strenght = 20
            type = infantry
            model = 1
        }
    }
    I put strenght down at 20 as these formations only had a cadre of troops in peacetime and were not fully mobilized. I don't know if we should do it this way, or just put them at full strenght as they were in TGW? model = 1 equals 1895 Infantry. [... Section] will have to be changed to whatever name the section will take, and leader numbers instead of names of course on the appropriate lines.

    And a revised Norwegian Land OOB for January 1914:

    Code:
    landunit = {
        id = { type = 39111 id = 1 }
        name = "1. brigad"
        location = 107 # Oslo
        division = {
            id = { type = 39111 id = 2 }
            name = "1. brigad"
            strength = 10
                max_strenght = 40
            type = infantry
            model = 1
        }
    }
    
    landunit = {
        id = { type = 39111 id = 3 }
        name = "2. brigad"
        location = 107 # Oslo
        division = {
            id = { type = 39111 id = 4 }
            name = "2. brigad"
            strength = 10
                max_strenght = 40
            type = infantry
            model = 1
        }
    }
    
    landunit = {
        id = { type = 39111 id = 5 }
        name = "3. brigad"
        location = 108 # Kristiansand
        division = {
            id = { type = 39111 id = 6 }
            name = "3. brigad"
            strength = 10
                max_strenght = 40
            type = infantry
            model = 1
        }
    }
    
    landunit = {
        id = { type = 39111 id = 7 }
        name = "4. brigad"
        location = 110 # Bergen
        division = {
            id = { type = 39111 id = 8 }
            name = "4. brigad"
            strength = 10
                max_strenght = 40
            type = infantry
            model = 1
        }
    }
    
    landunit = {
        id = { type = 39111 id = 9 }
        name = "5. brigad"
        location = 118 # Trondheim
        division = {
            id = { type = 39111 id = 10 }
            name = "5. brigad"
            strength = 10
                max_strenght = 40
            type = infantry
            model = 1
        }
    }
    
    landunit = {
        id = { type = 39111 id = 11 }
        name = "6. brigad"
        location = 125 # Narvik
        division = {
            id = { type = 39111 id = 12 }
            name = "6. brigad"
            strength = 10
                max_strenght = 40
            type = infantry
            model = 1
        }
    }
    Same thing about strenght as the Swedish one.

    Allenby, It'd be nice if you could pass the map out so that the team can test stuff easier.

    /Johan
    Last edited by Johan Elisson; 20-02-2005 at 17:44.
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  16. #16
    I am the Walrus Kaiser Franz's Avatar
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    Well it was only after Yuan Shih-k'ai's death in 1916 that the warlords emeregd in power, untill then China had been in chaos, but unified under his government, he crowned himself emperor in December 1915, he died in June 1916. But the warlord period only comes into being in 1917.

    But here are the numbers of the pre-Revolution Chinese armies:
    200,000 well trained, equiped troops
    270,000 Provincial troops, badly trained and equiped
    55,000 Green Standard Militia, loyal but badly equiped

    As for the Navy, i am not totaly sure on this though:

    Heavy Cruisers
    Hai Chi

    Cruiser's
    Cao Ho
    Ying Swei
    Hai Yung
    Hai Chao
    Hai Chen
    Fu An
    Tung Chi

    what warlord states are you including? I can help out a bit with the warlordei have a few books on the subject that may be of use.

    EDIT: heres a pic of Yuan Shih-k'ai:

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    I am the Walrus Kaiser Franz's Avatar
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    update on the structure of Republican and Nationalist armies of the period: A Republican Division numbered around 12,368 men, and a Nationalist division around 10,923 men. Corps didn't exist in the Chinese armies and so the next step up from a Division would be the Field Army. A Field army consisted of 2 or 3 Divisions, after the Field army there was the Army Group which consisted of 3 Field armies. An average Army Group had the strength of around 60,000 to 80,000 men.

    The Kuomintang army was set up in 1922 as well as the Military academy at Whampoa with Soviet instructors to train the officers.

    As for special equipment:

    Warlord Chang Tso-Lin had at least 100 aircraft of the latest types, including Breguet-14 light bombers.
    He also had a number of Renualt FT-17 light tanks.

    The warlord Wu Pei-fu had in respects to armour Critoen-Kegresse half-track armoured cars.

    Most of the artillery for warlords, Republicans, Nationalits and Communists were of small calibre and in large demand, they were quite rare.
    A lot of the heavy and special equipment was foreign, the supplies came from Germany, Britian, Russia and Japan. Many Chinese forces used copies of the Mauser G-98, K-98 and M-88 rifles, this rifle was used in large quantities. the Mauser K98 was known as the Chiang Kai-Shek Rifle.

  18. #18
    Marshal of Poland Halibutt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiser Franz
    Volunteer Army - Northern Ukraine (50,000 men)
    1st Infantry Division
    2nd Infantry Division
    3rd Infantry Division
    4th Infantry Division
    1st Cavalry Division

    2nd Stepnoy Siberian Corps
    3rd, 4th and 5th Siberian Rifle Div's
    Why doesn't the Siberian OOB include the Polish 5th Rifle Division? Also, the OOB for Crimea does not include the Polish 4th Rifle Division.

    As to other OOBs, I'm working on the 1920 mod currently and I wonder if any of you has some fairly exact OOB for the Reds as per early 1919? I would appreciate any help.
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  19. #19
    I am the Walrus Kaiser Franz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halibutt
    Why doesn't the Siberian OOB include the Polish 5th Rifle Division? Also, the OOB for Crimea does not include the Polish 4th Rifle Division.
    It doesn't include that particular division, becuase the book i got it from only doesn't mention it or the other Polish division.....just as a question..i'm doing work for the Vicky 1919 mod and do you have the Polish OOB for 1919, in Divisions if possible...we've had trouble trying to find the OOB's for the Red army and Poland...

  20. #20
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    On a completely different note: I think we should look into the german (and russian of course) OOB because of the many new provinces in HOI 2.

    This to find better locations for all the troops

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