OOBs

[Johan Elisson]

With more unit types available and the possibility to set a max strenght, the main changes to the OOBs will be to decide which divisions that will be what type, and also adding smaller units that we left out or lumped together.

Until we have decided what unit types we will use it'll be hard to implement these changes, but once that is done I'd love to take the task of doing it.

/Johan

[Kaiser Franz]

ok here they are: these were not all around at the same time, some were re-organised but others created after 1918 etc etc

Dnipro Insurgent Division
Chornomorska (black sea) Division
Selianska (peasant) Division
Zaporizhska Sich
Volyhynian Division
1st Galician Regiment
Czech Ruthenian Regiment
Serduik Division
3rd 'Iron' Rifles Division
1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th,11th and 12th Rifle Divisions
1st Zuporizhska Division
2nd Volynska Division
3rd Zalizna Division
4th Kyivska Division
5th Khersonska Division
6th Sichovykh Striltsiv Division


Makhno's army:
Ukrainian Insurrectionary Army
had 25,000 men at its peak, altough the names are unknown one Division was named the 'Iron' Division.
at least 1 Cavalry unit was named - Batkova Chortova Sotnia (Chiefs Hell squadron.


just as a question..do you need the OOB's for the White Rusian armies and the armies of the Western Ukrianian Republic?

[StephenT]

Many thanks!

That's quite a sizable army for Ukraine - how many starting divisions would you give them as:
a) A German puppet
b) An independent nation
?

just as a question..do you need the OOB's for the White Rusian armies and the armies of the Western Ukrianian Republic?

The more information the better: our OOBs for the Former Tsarist empire are quite approximate and sketchy at the moment. (Based largely on guesswork)

[Kaiser Franz]

Puppet of Germany = 60,000 men
Independant = 40,000 men, 100,000 guerrillas

White Russian armies and units.

Northern Corps - Estonia (20,000 men)
1st White Estonian Division
2nd White Estonian Division

Baltische Landeswehr - Lithuania/Latvia (30,000 men)
Eiserne Division
Baltische Landwehr
Deutsche Legion

Detached Corps - North Russia (20,000 men)
1st Detached Rifle Division
2nd Detached Rifle Division

North West Army - North West Ukarine (60,000 men)
1st Infantry Division
2nd Infantry Division
3rd Infantry Division
4th Infantry Division
5th Infantry Division
6th Infantry Division

Volunteer Army - Northern Ukraine (50,000 men)
1st Infantry Division
2nd Infantry Division
3rd Infantry Division
4th Infantry Division
1st Cavalry Division

1st Army Corps - West Ukarine (30,000 men)
Drozdovska Infantry Division
1st Cavalry Division
2nd Cavalry Divisions

2nd Army Corps - East Ukarine (30,000 men)
13th Infantry Division
34th Infantry Division
Tersko-Astrakhanska Cavalry

Composite Cavalry Corps - South-East Ukraine (20,000 men)
Kuban Cavalry Division
3rd Cavalry Division

Donosky Corps - South-East Ukraine (30,000 men)
1st Donskaya Horse Division
2nd Donskaya Horse Division
3rd Donskaya Horse Division

Army of the Don - Western Ukraine (80,000 men)
1st Infantry Division
2nd Infantry Division
3rd Infantry Division
4th Infantry Division
1st Cavalry Division
2nd Cavalry Division
3rd Cavalry Division
4th Cavalry Division

Lower Volga Detachment - Lower Volga region (20,000 men)
Astrakhan Cossack Division
3rd Kuban Cossack Division

Trans-Volga Detcahment - Upper Volga region (10,000 men)
Kavkazkaya Rifle Division

1st Uralsky Corps - Ural Region (50,000 men)
1st Uralsky Cossack Division
2nd Uralsky Cossack Division
3rd Uralsky Cossack Division
1st Uralsky Infantry Division
3rd Iletzkaya Division

Army of Turkestan
Zakaspiyskana Composite Division
Turkestan Rifle Division
Cavalry Division
1st and 2nd Basmanchi - Uzbek irregulars

2nd Iletzky Cossack - Ural region
3rd Uralskaya Cav. Division
5th Iletzkaya Division
plus several detcahed units

Admiral Kolchaks Army of Siberia
The army was formed in Novonikolayevsk (Novosibirsk)

1st Middle Siberian Corps
1st and 2nd Siberian Rifle Div's

2nd Stepnoy Siberian Corps
3rd, 4th and 5th Siberian Rifle Div's

3rd Uralsky Army Corps
7th Uralskaya Rifle Div
2nd Czech In. Regt
1st, 2nd and 3rd Orenburg Cossack Regt's

Composite Corps
3rd Irkutskaya Siberian Rifle Div
15th Omskaya Siberian Rifle Div
Votkinskaya Div
Krasnoufimskaya Brigade




I'll check for any other anti-Red forces etc and the Allied interventionists..

[Kaiser Franz]

Allied interventionists and non-White anti-bolshevik forces:

Murmansk and Archangel
8,000 British
5,000 Americans
1,300 Italians
1,200 Serbs,Czechs and Poles

Vladivostock and Far East
Japanese 5th,12th and 14th Infantry Divisions (75,000 strong)
US Expeditionary Force ( US marines etc, 9,000 Strong)
Czechoslovak Legion (60,000 strong)
1,500 Britsih
1,500 Italians
1,100 French

The Cuacases
13th and 39th Britsih Infantry Divisions (in the city of Baku)

*************

Non Allied anti-bolshevik countries.

Bukara or Khivan Armies
They were aided by Enver Pasha who fled Turkey and fought for the Turkmen, he was killed while fighting for them...
9,000 Basmachi in Turkmenistan (irregulars 1 attachment)
3,000 men of the Topchi-Bashi Militia (irregulars)
300 men of the elite Turkish Regiment (guard infantry)

Azerbaijan (Satellite of Turkey)
Not sure, but it had some help from Turkey and Germany.
Mainly irregulars

Georgia
1st and 2nd Infantry Divisions
1st Sukhumi Border Regt.
2nd Border Regt.

[Kaiser Franz]

while i'm ona roll..would you like the size of the Red Army around 1918? I can't give many specific units, but i can give how many, some specific units and different Corps etc.

[Shadow Knight]

Might as well. Got any ideas on things like brigade attachments (such as artillery, engineers, etc.)

[Kaiser Franz]

Here is almost all the knowledge you need to create the Red Army, some of it might not trsnafer well in HOI2, but you can use the info you need, some of the units are probably not easy to represent in HoI2.

well as for the Reds its hard to say, but by April 1918 there were at least 155-200,000 men in the Red army. The Bolsheviks idea was to create a total of 58 Infantry Divisions and other specialsts and technical troops.

As for Fronts here they are (they are highre than an army) these would be HQ's in my idea

Northern Front - Volodga-Archangel area
Ukrainian Front - Ukraine
Southern Front - Ukraine to Azov
Turkestan Front - Turkestan
Caspian-Caucasian Front - Caspian region and the Caucasus
Eastern Front - Urals and Siberia

Infantry

Army/Field Army (Armiya)
A Field Army consisted of around 2 to 9 Infantry Divisions this was around 12,000 to 50,000 men

Infantry Units:
In 1918 all Infantry Divisions fighting for the Red Army were designated as Rifle Divisions, or Strelkovy Diviziya. It had 1,657 Officers, 56,668 Other ranks, 382 Machine Guns and 116 Artillery peices, but most Divisons were of around 15,000 men instead.

Cavalry

Cavalry Armies:
At the time in 1918 there were only a few Cavalry armies. There were 3 Cavalry Armies: the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Cavalry Armies.

Cavalry Divisions:
A Red Army Cavalry Division comprised of 3 Cavalry Brigades and 4 Horse Batteries. Full strength should have been around 9,499 men and 10,210 horses. In practise it was usually between 3,000 and 8,000 men


Specialist Forces

Air Forces:
The Red Army airforce in early 1918 consisted of around 113 men with 6 planes.

Armour:
There were armopured car detachments but they were foten very small. In 1920 the Red Army set up the first Avtotankovy Otryads or Auto-Tank detcahments, they had around 81 to 113 men. Most of their armour was captured from the Whites and therefore of Allied make, the majority were British with some rare French vehicles appearing here and there.

Paramilitary security forces:
The Voyenizirovannaya Okhrana or VOkhr was formed in late 1919, their job was to gaurd roads, factories, bridges, waterways and railways that were strategic. By early 1920 there were 105,000 men in the VOkhr.

Internal Service Troops:
The Voyska Vnutrenny Sluzhi or VnuS were created in early 1920. Their responsiblities were to gaurd POW camps, communictaion networks, and to convoy anti-Bolshevic elements to their POW camps.

Border Guards:
The Pogranichniye Voyska were established in May 1918 to defend the Bolshevik borders from attacks from whites etc. But it they never really did their job properly till the wars had finished and the Soviet borders were re-instated.


Specialist Equipment:
Aircraft:
The Reds used many planes, 2 thirds were foreign made. 50 percent were French Nieuport fighters and French Farman Bombers. Russian made fighters were rare, but still served. They were the Ilya Muromets and the Lebed-12 Fighter and the C-20 fighter plane.

Armour:
The majority were British Mk.I and French Renault FT-17's but they were only avaible when captured from the Whites.


Hope this info is helpfull to you.

[Kaiser Franz]

just as a question...but are there any OOB's your not sure of for TGW? just so if i knew...then i could try to help out...

EDIT: would it help if i told you the numbers of Aircraft the Whites had and what makes they were? and possibly White armoured vehicles as well?

[Allenby]

just as a question...but are there any OOB's your not sure of for TGW? just so if i knew...then i could try to help out...

It's difficult to say at this stage. We coped admirably last time for 1914 and 1918 OOBs, mostly because we are armed with Ellis & Cox's excellent book. If you have any more details as to the make up of the forces in Eastern Europe from 1917 onwards, then we would be happy to see them.

EDIT: would it help if i told you the numbers of Aircraft the Whites had and what makes they were? and possibly White armoured vehicles as well?

That would be helpful, yes.

[StephenT]

Do we assume that one air unit is 100 aircraft, as we did with TGW? I have to say I've not seen a figure for this quoted in the manual anywhere.

A tank brigade attachment would be 60-120 tanks historically.

[Shadow Knight]

I'd say go with a 100 planes until at some point we hear differently (not that I expect of course), unless you think 50 planes is more appropriate.

[Kaiser Franz]

would you like some info on the Chinese army by about 1911/12? mainly numbers and a few named units, but it would be useful.

[Allenby]

would you like some info on the Chinese army by about 1911/12? mainly numbers and a few named units, but it would be useful.

I don't suppose there's any harm in you posting them. However, I would be slightly cautious - the political situation in China in 1914 was far removed from what had been the case in 1911 and 1912. Units under the command of the government in one year are likely to be under the direction of a different general the next.

[Johan Elisson]

First out with a revised Swedish Land OOB for January 1914:

landunit = {
    id = { type = 53111 id = 1 }
    name = "I. arméfördelningen"
    location = 93 # Malmö
    # leader = [Axel von Matern]
    division = {
        id = { type = 53111 id = 2 }
        name = "I. arméfördelningen"
        strength = 20
        type = infantry
        model = 1
        # extra = [Cavalry Section]
    }
}

landunit = {
    id = { type = 53111 id = 3 }
    name = "II. arméfördelningen"
    location = 100 # Norrköping
    # leader = [Lars Tingsten]
    division = {
        id = { type = 53111 id = 4 }
        name = "II. arméfördelningen"
        strength = 20
        type = infantry
        model = 1
    }
}

landunit = {
    id = { type = 53111 id = 5 }
    name = "III. arméfördelningen"
    location = 99 # Skövde
    # leader = [Philip von Platen]
    division = {
        id = { type = 53111 id = 6 }
        name = "III. arméfördelningen"
        strength = 20
        type = infantry
        model = 1
        # extra = [Artillery Section]
    }
}

landunit = {
    id = { type = 53111 id = 7 }
    name = "IV. arméfördelningen"
    location = 101 # Stockholm
    # leader = [Carl Jungstedt]
    division = {
        id = { type = 53111 id = 8 }
        name = "IV. arméfördelningen"
        strength = 20
        type = infantry
        model = 1
        # extra = [Artillery Section]
    }
}

landunit = {
    id = { type = 53111 id = 9 }
    name = "V. arméfördelningen"
    location = 101 # Stockholm
    # leader = [Olof Malm]
    division = {
        id = { type = 53111 id = 10 }
        name = "V. arméfördelningen"
        strength = 20
        type = infantry
        model = 1
        # extra = [Engineer Section]
    }
}

landunit = {
    id = { type = 53111 id = 11 }
    name = "VI. arméfördelningen"
    location = 119 # Östersund
    # leader = [Johan Wrangel]
    division = {
        id = { type = 53111 id = 12 }
        name = "VI. arméfördelningen"
        strength = 20
        type = infantry
        model = 1
    }
}

landunit = {
    id = { type = 53111 id = 13 }
    name = "Bodens trupper"
    location = 127 # Luleå
    # leader = [Per Bergenzaum]
    division = {
        id = { type = 53111 id = 14 }
        name = "Bodens trupper"
        strength = 10
            max_strenght = 30
        type = infantry
        model = 1
    }
}

landunit = {
    id = { type = 53111 id = 15 }
    name = "Gotlands trupper"
    location = 196 # Gotland
    # leader = [Erik Bergström]
    division = {
        id = { type = 53111 id = 16 }
        name = "Gotlands trupper"
        strength = 5
            max_strenght = 20
        type = infantry
        model = 1
    }
}

I put strenght down at 20 as these formations only had a cadre of troops in peacetime and were not fully mobilized. I don't know if we should do it this way, or just put them at full strenght as they were in TGW? model = 1 equals 1895 Infantry. [... Section] will have to be changed to whatever name the section will take, and leader numbers instead of names of course on the appropriate lines.

And a revised Norwegian Land OOB for January 1914:

landunit = {
    id = { type = 39111 id = 1 }
    name = "1. brigad"
    location = 107 # Oslo
    division = {
        id = { type = 39111 id = 2 }
        name = "1. brigad"
        strength = 10
            max_strenght = 40
        type = infantry
        model = 1
    }
}

landunit = {
    id = { type = 39111 id = 3 }
    name = "2. brigad"
    location = 107 # Oslo
    division = {
        id = { type = 39111 id = 4 }
        name = "2. brigad"
        strength = 10
            max_strenght = 40
        type = infantry
        model = 1
    }
}

landunit = {
    id = { type = 39111 id = 5 }
    name = "3. brigad"
    location = 108 # Kristiansand
    division = {
        id = { type = 39111 id = 6 }
        name = "3. brigad"
        strength = 10
            max_strenght = 40
        type = infantry
        model = 1
    }
}

landunit = {
    id = { type = 39111 id = 7 }
    name = "4. brigad"
    location = 110 # Bergen
    division = {
        id = { type = 39111 id = 8 }
        name = "4. brigad"
        strength = 10
            max_strenght = 40
        type = infantry
        model = 1
    }
}

landunit = {
    id = { type = 39111 id = 9 }
    name = "5. brigad"
    location = 118 # Trondheim
    division = {
        id = { type = 39111 id = 10 }
        name = "5. brigad"
        strength = 10
            max_strenght = 40
        type = infantry
        model = 1
    }
}

landunit = {
    id = { type = 39111 id = 11 }
    name = "6. brigad"
    location = 125 # Narvik
    division = {
        id = { type = 39111 id = 12 }
        name = "6. brigad"
        strength = 10
            max_strenght = 40
        type = infantry
        model = 1
    }
}

Same thing about strenght as the Swedish one.

Allenby, It'd be nice if you could pass the map out so that the team can test stuff easier.

/Johan

[Kaiser Franz]

Well it was only after Yuan Shih-k'ai's death in 1916 that the warlords emeregd in power, untill then China had been in chaos, but unified under his government, he crowned himself emperor in December 1915, he died in June 1916. But the warlord period only comes into being in 1917.

But here are the numbers of the pre-Revolution Chinese armies:
200,000 well trained, equiped troops
270,000 Provincial troops, badly trained and equiped
55,000 Green Standard Militia, loyal but badly equiped

As for the Navy, i am not totaly sure on this though:

Heavy Cruisers
Hai Chi

Cruiser's
Cao Ho
Ying Swei
Hai Yung
Hai Chao
Hai Chen
Fu An
Tung Chi

what warlord states are you including? I can help out a bit with the warlordei have a few books on the subject that may be of use.

EDIT: heres a pic of Yuan Shih-k'ai:

[Kaiser Franz]

update on the structure of Republican and Nationalist armies of the period: A Republican Division numbered around 12,368 men, and a Nationalist division around 10,923 men. Corps didn't exist in the Chinese armies and so the next step up from a Division would be the Field Army. A Field army consisted of 2 or 3 Divisions, after the Field army there was the Army Group which consisted of 3 Field armies. An average Army Group had the strength of around 60,000 to 80,000 men.

The Kuomintang army was set up in 1922 as well as the Military academy at Whampoa with Soviet instructors to train the officers.

As for special equipment:

Warlord Chang Tso-Lin had at least 100 aircraft of the latest types, including Breguet-14 light bombers.
He also had a number of Renualt FT-17 light tanks.

The warlord Wu Pei-fu had in respects to armour Critoen-Kegresse half-track armoured cars.

Most of the artillery for warlords, Republicans, Nationalits and Communists were of small calibre and in large demand, they were quite rare.
A lot of the heavy and special equipment was foreign, the supplies came from Germany, Britian, Russia and Japan. Many Chinese forces used copies of the Mauser G-98, K-98 and M-88 rifles, this rifle was used in large quantities. the Mauser K98 was known as the Chiang Kai-Shek Rifle.

[Halibutt]

Volunteer Army - Northern Ukraine (50,000 men)
1st Infantry Division
2nd Infantry Division
3rd Infantry Division
4th Infantry Division
1st Cavalry Division

2nd Stepnoy Siberian Corps
3rd, 4th and 5th Siberian Rifle Div's

Why doesn't the Siberian OOB include the Polish 5th Rifle Division? Also, the OOB for Crimea does not include the Polish 4th Rifle Division.

As to other OOBs, I'm working on the 1920 mod currently and I wonder if any of you has some fairly exact OOB for the Reds as per early 1919? I would appreciate any help.
Cheers

[Kaiser Franz]

Why doesn't the Siberian OOB include the Polish 5th Rifle Division? Also, the OOB for Crimea does not include the Polish 4th Rifle Division.

It doesn't include that particular division, becuase the book i got it from only doesn't mention it or the other Polish division.....just as a question..i'm doing work for the Vicky 1919 mod and do you have the Polish OOB for 1919, in Divisions if possible...we've had trouble trying to find the OOB's for the Red army and Poland...

[Zuckergußgebäck]

On a completely different note: I think we should look into the german (and russian of course) OOB because of the many new provinces in HOI 2.

This to find better locations for all the troops