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  1. #1
    ex-Great War[lord] Johan Elisson's Avatar
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    1914: Units

    So, why not start discussing units. I'd suggest starting with the cathegory that probably will see the most changes, land units. As the system is pretty different from HoI, and that a few new slots for units are available, the units can be arranged slightly different.

    Land Units

    HQ (TGW tag: -, 1914 tag: hq)

    1870 HQ
    1914 HQ
    1918 HQ


    Guards Infantry (motorized, light armor)

    1890 Guards Infantry
    1912 Guards Infantry


    Assault Infantry (motorized, armor)

    1918 Assault Infantry

    Infantry (infantry, infantry)

    1890 Infantry
    1895 Infantry
    1912 Infantry
    1915 Infantry
    1917 Infantry
    1919 Infantry


    Reserve Infantry (-, motorized)

    1890 Reserve Infantry
    1912 Reserve Infantry
    1918 Trench Infantry (might be placed under Garrison instead)


    Garrison Infantry ((mechanized), garrison)

    1890 Garrison Infantry
    1912 Garrison Infantry
    1917 Garrison Infantry (late-/post-war model?)


    Cavalry (cavalry, cavalry)

    1890 Cavalry
    1902 Cavalry
    1916 Dismounted Cavalry (currently under fierce discussion)


    Armour (panzer, mechanized)

    1919 Armour
    1924 Armour


    Light Infantry (paratrooper, paratrooper)

    1890 Light Infantry
    1912 Light Infantry
    1917 Light Infantry (late-/post-war model?)


    Marine Infantry (marine, marine)

    1924 Marine Infantry

    Mountain Infantry (bergsjaeger, bergsjaeger)

    1890 Mountain Infantry
    1912 Mountain Infantry
    1917 Mountain Infantry (late-/post-war model?)


    Militia (militia, militia)

    1860 Warriors
    1900 Militia
    1917 Militia


    All changes seem very possible to do, and there will not be any problem with having infantry on an 'armor' slot as the variable softness can be modified.

    On to brigades then. 13 different types (not counting CAG) meant I had to strenghten myself with a pizza before starting thinking about it.

    Brigades

    Tank Section (1914 tag: heavy_armor)

    Models?

    Armored Car Section (armored_car)

    Models?

    Artillery Section (artillery)

    Models?

    Heavy Artillery Section (sp_artillery)

    Models?

    Engineer Section (engineer)

    Models?

    Heavy Weapons Section (tank_destroyer)

    Models?

    Anti-Air Artillery Section (anti_air)

    Models?

    Anti-Tank Artillery Section (anti_tank)

    Models?

    Cavalry Section (light_armor_brigade)

    Models?

    Gendarmery Section (police)

    Models?

    Communications Section (super_heavy_armor)

    Models?

    Medical Section (rocket_artillery)

    Models?

    Supply Train Section (sp_rct_artillery)

    Models?

    I know, I know, there is little difference between a few of them, but I ran out of ideas... I thought about having a brigade that'd double all values to simulate the enormous size of for example the Belgian divisions, but I discarded that thought.

    Naval units then. Not much is going to change here I guess. And the CAG will be the same.

    Naval Units

    Carrier
    As before.

    Battleship
    As before.

    Battlecruiser
    Gains its own type.

    Heavy Cruiser
    As before.

    Light Cruiser
    Gains its own type.

    Destroyer
    As before.

    Submarine
    As before.

    Transport
    As before.

    And air units won't change much either.

    Air Units

    Scout Fighter
    Gains its own type.

    Two-Seat Fighter
    Gains its own type.

    Escort Fighter
    Gains its own type.

    Recon/Bomber
    Merging recon and bomber into one.

    Contour Bomber
    As before.

    Strategic Bomber
    As before.

    Seaplane
    As before.

    Airship
    As before.

    As the torpedo plane was removed for HoI 2, I guess that merging recon and bomber would be the best solution.

    And finally, one of the flying bomb/missile slots can be used for gas.

    /Johan
    Last edited by Johan Elisson; 29-03-2005 at 17:26.
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  2. #2
    ex-Great War[lord] Johan Elisson's Avatar
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    Brigades are now above.

    Moderators: Delete this post if you want to.

    /Johan
    Last edited by Johan Elisson; 14-01-2005 at 22:11.
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  3. #3
    Custom User Title Allenby's Avatar

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    The units look okay for now - I'm sure we can talk about them in detail later on when other people have copies of the game.

    As for brigades, I would favour amalgamating the two types of artillery into one brigade type as divisional artillery usually consisted of guns of varying calibre, not just those of light and heavy designation. As a replacement, I would suggest having a Cavalry Section which would give a slight increase to organisation and defence to represent scouting duties and their use in 'puttying up' gaps in the front line. And before anyone asks, no, I don't see any problem with having a cavalry section for a cavalry division.

    I'm sure that a few people will be disheartened to learn that there shan't be any marvellous looking tank sprites as well.

  4. #4
    Admiral of the Fleet Shadow Knight's Avatar
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    That and the loss of precious police brigades for keeping those conquered peoples in the occupied territories down.
    f.k.a. shdwknightx
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  5. #5
    ex-Great War[lord] Johan Elisson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allenby
    As for brigades, I would favour amalgamating the two types of artillery into one brigade type as divisional artillery usually consisted of guns of varying calibre, not just those of light and heavy designation. As a replacement, I would suggest having a Cavalry Section which would give a slight increase to organisation and defence to represent scouting duties and their use in 'puttying up' gaps in the front line. And before anyone asks, no, I don't see any problem with having a cavalry section for a cavalry division.
    I thought about a cavalry section too, but could't find any good stats for it, but org and defense seems fine, maybe also a small speed increase. I know that a cavalry section couldn't speed up a whole division, but it could be used to simulate the section as a quick reaction force.

    Although I'd rather remove the transport section than the light artillery section. What I mean with light and heavy isn't really the calibre of the guns, but more the general use. Light artillery would represent mounted artiillery for i.e. marines, mountain and light infantry, while heavy artillery (or perhaps better, just artillery) would be the regular corps field artillery section attached to infantry divisions.

    I'm sure that a few people will be disheartened to learn that there shan't be any marvellous looking tank sprites as well.
    Yup. Maybe the dismounted cavalry model could have that sprite.

    Shadow Knight, the police brigade remains, but under the, IMHO, better name gendarmery section.

    /Johan
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  6. #6
    Admiral of the Fleet Shadow Knight's Avatar
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    Ah okay, thanks for the explanation.
    f.k.a. shdwknightx
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  7. #7
    Liberté, egalité, fraternité StephenT's Avatar
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    I can definitely see a place for a separate Heavy Artillery brigade. There was a conceptual difference between standard divisional artillery and the big guns. Edit: in other words this is opposite to Johan's conception: the lighter artillery becomes the standard, at least in 1914.

    Standard artillery ranged from 75mm (the famous French Schneider modčle 1897), 76.2mm (the British 3" Ordnance QF), 76.5mm (Austria-Hungary's Skoda Kanone 17) or 77mm (Germany's Feldkanone 16) up to about 105mm. All these guns were designed for rapid fire and relative mobility. Their primary effect should be to increase defensive strength.

    After trench warfare set in, there came a need for much heavier guns that were relatively immobile and took a long time to set up, but were powerful enough to blast solid fortifications. These included the German Kanone 16 (15cm) and British 60pdr. In-game, they should increase attack strength as well as defensive strength, but impose a significant speed penalty on the unit they are attached to. These brigades should be developed in about 1916.

    There was also the siege artillery, such as the German Krupp 420mm and Austro-Hungarian Skoda 305mm howitzers that smashed Liége in 1914, the British 9.2" (234mm) howitzer that had to be dismantled and pulled by numerous steam traction engines to move, and various railway guns up to 15" (380mm) calibre. Not sure whether these need to be represented separately, or if they can just be included in with the heavy artillery.

    Heavy weapons brigades would include things like trench mortars, flamethrowers, minenwerfers, Livens projectors, etc. Optionally, we could also use them to represent the kind of 'portable' artillery Johan mentions.

  8. #8
    Custom User Title Allenby's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by StephenT
    Heavy weapons brigades would include things like trench mortars, flamethrowers, minenwerfers, Livens projectors, etc. Optionally, we could also use them to represent the kind of 'portable' artillery Johan mentions.
    They'd be suitable for the 'Heavy Weapons' attachment. At least, I had Stokes Mortars and flamethrowers in mind when I devised the thing for TGW.

    As the presence of two types of artillery would be good for gameplay purposes, then it's worth having them represented by two different attachments. Although divisions had all kinds of artillery, there's no harm in having the attachments to demonstrate how divisions were given extra supplements of guns. I would, however, think that siege artillery should be grouped with heavy artillery.

    Also, I think that Communications Sections should give a bonus to soft attack values, as communication problems often held up advances. This is assuming that we are referring to electronic devices here and not pigeons or runners, though.

    Are we agreed that a cavalry attachment should replace the transport unit? I think transport can adequately be represented by infrastructure...

  9. #9
    ex-Great War[lord] Johan Elisson's Avatar
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    Let's settle for that for the moment. Will change my post to that.

    I thought about L Arm and Arm. In vanilla HoI 2, is L Arm hardcoded to be upgraded to Arm after level 2? If that's the case, wouldn't it be fine to make Guards Infantry L Arm and Assault Infantry Arm? That'd mean that the guards would be upgraded to assault. Kind of like we had it in TGW.

    Added naval and air units also.

    /Johan
    Last edited by Johan Elisson; 14-01-2005 at 22:22.
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  10. #10
    I had this idea (quite bonkers) of making several cadre models, and the mobilized models would only be activated when the country went to war. Something like:
    0 - Basic Cadre Division
    1 - Basic Division
    2 - Improved Cadre Division
    3 - Improved Division
    ...

    Would this be in any way possible (or desirable?) This would only apply to conscripts, of course.
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  11. #11
    Custom User Title Allenby's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johan Elisson
    Heavy Cruiser
    As before.
    Heavy cruisers were introduced towards the end of the war, but I think that a separate unit type is justifiable. This does, however, leave a gap with regards to armoured cruisers, which were obsolete by the outbreak of war. Ought these be an early model of Light or Heavy Cruisers? I suspect the latter, as the first British heavy cruisers were designed to assume some of the role left over by the abandoned armoured cruisers.

  12. #12
    ex-Great War[lord] Johan Elisson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allenby
    Heavy cruisers were introduced towards the end of the war, but I think that a separate unit type is justifiable. This does, however, leave a gap with regards to armoured cruisers, which were obsolete by the outbreak of war. Ought these be an early model of Light or Heavy Cruisers? I suspect the latter, as the first British heavy cruisers were designed to assume some of the role left over by the abandoned armoured cruisers.
    Guess we'll put them under Heavy Cruisers. The armored cruisers won't get upgraded anyway so it doesn't really matter where we put them.

    BTW, should I write words in American or British English? I feel like I'm offending you Allenby when I write "armored" quoting a post where you write "armoured".

    /Johan
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  13. #13
    Admiral of the Fleet Shadow Knight's Avatar
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    I say use the English style, just because it was really the end of WWI when the US began to assume the role of dominant power.
    f.k.a. shdwknightx
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  14. #14
    Liberté, egalité, fraternité StephenT's Avatar
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    I also vote for British English spellings, but then I would, wouldn't I?

    A couple of points regarding unit types: I would like to see at least one tank division/armoured division remain in the game, rather than just confine tanks to brigade attachments. Remember the mod isn't just 1914-18, it goes all the way up to 1925 - so it needs to cover JFC Fuller's theories and Plan 1919. I would be happy seeing tank units being very late on in the Artillery & Armour tech tree, and tank brigades arriving much sooner.

    Also, Johan, you're still getting confused about Scout aircraft... This is what would be considered a Scout in WW1 terms:



    In other words, it's the contemporary name for what in WW2 they called an interceptor. Nothing to do with reconnaissance - I presume they were called 'scouts' because they roamed over the battlefield hunting for enemy aircraft. Incidentally, the 'S' in SE-5a stands for 'Scout[ing]'.

    If Reconnaissance aircraft upgrade to anything, it should be bombers.

  15. #15
    ex-Great War[lord] Johan Elisson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephenT
    I also vote for British English spellings, but then I would, wouldn't I?
    Yeah, Brittish would probably be the best. Just keep checking my spelling as I probably am more used to American English.

    A couple of points regarding unit types: I would like to see at least one tank division/armoured division remain in the game, rather than just confine tanks to brigade attachments. Remember the mod isn't just 1914-18, it goes all the way up to 1925 - so it needs to cover JFC Fuller's theories and Plan 1919. I would be happy seeing tank units being very late on in the Artillery & Armour tech tree, and tank brigades arriving much sooner.
    Hmm. Might be a good idea, but which unit should we then get rid of? Maybe put Militia and Reserve in the same slot? Militia being the lowest model, while the rest would be Reserve? That'd also mean that lesser countries would be able to train (upgrade) their militia to higher status if the right tech is gained. But it would also mean that more developed countries won't be able to train any militia.

    Someone that has any other suggestion?

    Also, Johan, you're still getting confused about Scout aircraft... This is what would be considered a Scout in WW1 terms:

    [Nice picture]

    In other words, it's the contemporary name for what in WW2 they called an interceptor. Nothing to do with reconnaissance - I presume they were called 'scouts' because they roamed over the battlefield hunting for enemy aircraft. Incidentally, the 'S' in SE-5a stands for 'Scout[ing]'.

    If Reconnaissance aircraft upgrade to anything, it should be bombers.
    I guess I am. Then Recon will be the lower levels of Bombers.

    /Johan
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  16. #16
    Admiral of the Fleet Shadow Knight's Avatar
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    What about having the tank division be a new model of cavalry? Or will that suddenly replace all the cavalry divisions as new armored...erh...armoured divisions?

  17. #17
    ex-Great War[lord] Johan Elisson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Knight
    What about having the tank division be a new model of cavalry? Or will that suddenly replace all the cavalry divisions as new armored...erh...armoured divisions?
    Yup. I thought about that one to until I realized... eh realised, that it might not be the best.

    /Johan
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  18. #18
    Liberté, egalité, fraternité StephenT's Avatar
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    I'd favour keeping Guards and Assault units as different models of the same unit type, freeing up a slot for armoured divisions.

    Alternatively, I'm not sure we need separate slots for garrison, militia, reserve and conscript units - surely two of these can be combined together?

    Perhaps group reserve and conscript - keeping Johan's idea that they be less mobile than other infantry units. If the default movement rate is 4 for INF and 1 for GAR, then perhaps these units should have 2? Plus be as good in defence as INF, but as bad on attack as GAR? This represents troops who perform well enough if you put them in a trench and tell them to hold the line, but if you try to get them to advance they'll be slow, hesitant and lacking in initiative.

  19. #19
    Liberté, egalité, fraternité StephenT's Avatar
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    Another question on units - in HoI 2, you start out with 1918 infantry, then upgrade it to 1936 and so on. What should be the equivalent dates in 1914?

    Perhaps
    Militia 1860 (still using single shot muskets, swords and impractical uniforms)
    Militia 1900 (at least now they've got rifles)
    Militia 1917 (...and machine guns!)

    Infantry 1890 (Red trousers and close-order assault)
    Infantry 1912 (Camouflage uniforms and fire-and-movement)
    Infantry 1915 (Machine guns and entrenching tools)
    Infantry 1917 (Light machine guns, mortars and creeping barrages)
    Infantry 1919 (Submachineguns and inflitration tactics. Germany and Britain tech-rushed this model to obtain it in 1918)

  20. #20
    ex-Great War[lord] Johan Elisson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephenT
    I'd favour keeping Guards and Assault units as different models of the same unit type, freeing up a slot for armoured divisions.
    Problem is that L Arm probably is hardcoded to be upgraded to Arm, which means we gotta have two separate types of units where one will be upgraded to the other after two or three models.

    Alternatively, I'm not sure we need separate slots for garrison, militia, reserve and conscript units - surely two of these can be combined together?
    I'd rather do that.

    Perhaps group reserve and conscript - keeping Johan's idea that they be less mobile than other infantry units. If the default movement rate is 4 for INF and 1 for GAR, then perhaps these units should have 2? Plus be as good in defence as INF, but as bad on attack as GAR? This represents troops who perform well enough if you put them in a trench and tell them to hold the line, but if you try to get them to advance they'll be slow, hesitant and lacking in initiative.
    Could work, but I don't think we should lower movement stats. Did conscripts really march only half as fast as professional soldiers? My talk about moveable garrison was more meant at having the same low stats as garrison, but normal movement speed.

    I think you guys know better than me about what year models is best to have.

    /Johan
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