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Thread: Land Efficiency FAQ - Demo version

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    Land Efficiency FAQ - Demo version

    This is what I have come up to for now (based on the demo version so its not yet
    fully accurate and I know that some will change). However I am pretty confident
    all the things are correct. The sections with the ***** mean that its a guess
    based on stuff from HOI1.

    There ARE changes so all you old timers from HOI1 should read this too .

    EDIT: I do update this on a "regular" basis so you may want to skim over it to
    see if there are new things added.
    EDIT2: Okay did some major clearing up to insure everybody understands the CPC.

    Code:
    LAND LEADERS
    ============
    
    Definitions
    -----------
    Unit - The smallest element - a tank, infantry, motorized, mech.. etc.
    Formation - All the units grouped under a single leader. 
    Stack - One or more formations located in the SAME province (zone). 
            In battle, a stack of formations is commanded by their most senior leader.
    Div list - The list of divisons that appears in the combat window.
    
    When you group your armies its essential that you understand that each leader has a 
    Command Penalty Capacity (CPC). 
    
    1. Command Penalty Capacity (i.e. the -75% penalty)
    ---------------------------------------------------
    1.1 This is a parameter for each stack. It is worked out separately for each stack.
    1.2 If the total number of units in the stack exceeds the Command Penalty 
        Capacity, then the excess units in that stack receive a -75% penalty.
    1.3 For each attacking stack, it is the capacity of the most senior leader in 
        the stack.
           - if the most senior leader is an FM, then it is 12
           - if the most senior leader is an GEN, then it is 9
           - if the most senior leader is an LT, then it is 3
           - if the most senior leader is an MJ, then it is 1
    1.4 For a defending stack it is the sum of all the leaders present in the stack.
    1.5 Thus if we have 13 units in an attacking formation commanded by a FM 
        (display of 13/12), one unit will have a -75% penalty. If the units were defending 
        the display would also read 13/12. If we have 13 units units in a territory, 
        but 12 of them will be under a FM and the 13th will be under a LT and the stack was 
        attacking (from one territory) then the display would read 13/12 - the 13th unit 
        would be at -75%.  If the same units were defending then the CPC will be 15 
        (FM 12 + LT 3 = display 13/15) thus no unit will get a -75% penalty, but ONLY if
        they are defending.   
    1.6 The capacity may be doubled by an HQ adjacent or in the same province. 
        The HQ does not have to be present at the start of the combat - as soon as
        the HQ becomes adjacent to or present at an existing combat, the combat eff 
        values alter accordingly.
           - if the most senior leader is an FM, then it is self-doubled to 24
           - if the most senior leader is an GEN, then it is self-doubled to 18
           - if the most senior leader is an LT, then it is self-doubled to 6
           - if the most senior leader is an MJ, then it is self-doubled to 2
    1.7 Thus in the same situation, but with a HQ present as one of those 13 units, we 
        would have a CPC of 24 if all the units were under an FM, and a CPC of 30, if 
        one of those was commanded by a LT. No unit will get the -75% penalty. 
    1.8 The units receiving the penalty are the lowest ones in the formation list 
        for a stack.
    1.9 There is a limit to the number of ATTACKERS in one stack - 24 per territory 
        (under an FM with a HQ present - 18 if the highest is a general with HQ and so on). 
        If there is no HQ in the area then the CPC will be max 12/FM, 9/G, 3LT & 1MJ. So 
        in the above example if 13 units (12 for FM and 1 LT) attacked from one province 
        with a HQ the display will read 13/24.
    1.10 This means that if you attack with an FM+23 units from one direction, and an
         FM+25 units from another direction, the combat screen will show 48/48 (if a HQ is 
         present/nearby province), but in fact one of your units will get a -75% penalty.
    1.11 There is no limit to the amount of DEFENDERS in the stack as long as you have enough
         command capacity to cover all the units.
    1.12 There is no extra benefit for NOT useing the full CPC - i.e. placing 9 units under a
         FM (9/12).
    
    2. Div list sequence
    --------------------
    2.1 For attacks with a stack, which formation is on top (i.e. listed first thus is
        not eligilbe for the -75% if stack is overstacked) depends ONLY on which 
        formation was "on top" of the stack when command to attack was issued.
    2.2 For a given formation, the sequence of unitS is the same as seen in the 
        tooltip when the cursor is rested over the units.
        This is also the same as the sequence seen in the formation summary window by 
        clicking on the formation (only viewable prior to combat).
    2.3 It is therefore perfectly possible for a unit in the middle of the div 
        list to get a -75% penalty if:
        - Its stack is over capacity.
        - Its stack happens to be towards the top of the div list.
        Then the lowest unitS (i.e the ones in the lowest formationS) for
        that stack will get the penalty, but other divs for other stackS will be 
        below it.
    
    3. HQ bonus / effects
    ---------------------
    3.1 HQ units act the same as FM's in HOI1. Leaders in the same province or in an adjacent
        one have a doubled CPC (as in par 1.5). 
    3.2 All units that have a HQ unit next to them or in the stack can get a bigger ESE bonus.
    3.3 HQ do not have to be attached to formations to give bonuses. There presence in the
        province or in an adjacent province is enough.
    3.4 HQ need to be commanded by an FM or a GEN to double the CPC of neighbouring units.
    3.5 It does not matter what leader (in terms of skills and traits)you put in charge of 
        the HQ - there are no extra bonuses to any of the other formations from the traits 
        or skills of the leader in charge of the HQ.
    3.6 Multiple HQ's do not cause any extra bonuses.
    3.7 Depending on the level HQ's - they do not suffer from being flanked (i.e. attacked
        when attacking)*****
     
      
    4. Skill bonuses
    ----------------
    4.1 These may be granted by a leader to, and ONLY TO, the unitS in HIS formation.
    4.2 For skill purposes the capacity of a leader is NOT doubled by the presence 
        of FMs, whether the FM is himself the leader, in the same stack, in the same
        province, or adjacent.
    4.3 If the number of unitS in a formation is <= capacity (undoubled) of the formation
        leader, then all the unitS in that formation receive the skill bonus.
    4.4 If the number of unitS in a formation > capacity (undoubled) of the formation
        leader, NO unitS in that formation receive the skill bonus.
    4.5 Where granted, the bonus is 5% for each skill level
    4.6 It does not matter if the CPC of the STACK is exceeded as long as the CPC of the 
        leader is not. In such a case the last units in the display box will get the -75% 
       (however they will still get the skill and the trait bonus).
    
    5. Who commands
    ---------------
    5.1 The highest ranking leader commands.
    5.2 Where there is more than one equal highest ranking leader, the leader shown
        in command is the one whose divs are randomly highest (of the equal ranking
        leaders) in the div list. See 2 for more detail on sequence.
    5.3 It doesn't make any difference which of equal ranking leaders is in command:
        - Command Capacity Penalty (the -75% one) is set by rank only, and 
          separately for each stack.
        - Traits are passed by all leaders to unitS in their formation regardless of
          who commands the battle.
        - Skills are passed by all leaders whose formationS are smaller than their 
          capacity, regardless of who commands the battle.
    5.4 Rank & skill also influence rate of aCPCumulation of experience.
        - Normally leaders add 1 exp point for every x hours elapsed.
        - You get the 1st point after x/2 hours, the 2nd and thereafter after every
          x hours.
        - FM's earn experience at the slowest rate, MJ at the fastest rate. However
          this is also dependant on the current number of skill points. A GEN with a
          skill of 2 will earn exp faster than a GEN with a skill of 4.  
        - As posted by P3D:
    [*]EXP gain depends on the intensity of combat, leaders with the same characteristics
     can gain different amount of EXP in paralell combats- I didn't really bothered with it
    
    [*]EXP is not affected by traits save the good Old Guard
    
    [*]The promotion dates or the ideal rank in the leaderfiles also have no effect
    
    [*]The only parameters effecting the rate of EXP growth are rank, skill and max skill level
    
    The rate of XP growth is in arbitraty units
    
    All Skill 0, MaxSkill 9
    MjGen LtGen Gen FM
    100  66   33  10
    
    This was clear to me, the ratios are 1, 2/3, 1/3, and 1/10.
     Other skill values provided the same results.
    
    MjGen, Maxskill 9
    
    Skill    0   1    2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9
    Gain    100  80   31  16  9   5   2   1   1   0
    
    This puzzled me, I couldn't think of any simple function to fit it.
    
    MjGen, Skill=0
    
    Maxskill  9    8    7    6   5    4    3   2   1 
    Gain      100  80   63   48  35   24   9   4   1 
    
    At least this was a clear square law, I dind't even had to make a log-log fit.
    Looking at the previous data, I saw that 31~63/2, 16~48/4, 9~35/4, etc. 
    And this helped me to get the final equation, for skill<=maxskill:
    
     Rate off EXP gain = (MaxSkill-Currentskill+1)^2/max(Currentskill,1)*RankFactor
    
       
    6. Traits
    ---------
    6.1 These are granted by each leader to, and ONLY TO, the units in HIS formation.
    6.2 If that leader has multiple traits, then all these traits are applied.
    6.3 All the units in the formation receive the leader trait unless the formation 
        goes over the leaders UNDOUBLED CPC.
    6.4 Trait bonuses:
    
     Defensive Doctrine
        Eff + 10% for defender.
    
     Offensive Doctrine
        Eff +10% for attacker.
    
     Panzer Leader
       Eff +10% for Armour/Mech,as both attacker and defender. 
    
     Logistic Wizard
       Oil and supplies consumption -25% ******
    
     Commando
       Eff +10% for Mountain, Marine and Paratroopers.
       Eff -5% for all other troops.
    
     Engineer
       Removes all river crossing combat Eff effects (only).
       ******
    
     Trickster
       Increases the chance of surprise. If the enemy unit is suprised it gets a -20%
       efficiency modifier.
    
       
     Fortress Buster
       Reduces the efficiency of forts by 25%. Each full level of fort (land or sea)gives 
       the attacker a - 9 % efficiency modifier.
    
     Old Guard
       ******
        
     Winter Specialist
       blizzard... unknown
       snow... snow Eff +25%
       frozen... frozen Eff +20%
    
    
    Examples of how efficiency is calculated for traits and skill
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    
       If we have:
       - stack 1, attacking from Province 1 in Direction 1
          - FM, skill 3, with Offensive Doctrine and Panzer Leader, + 23 divs
          - LG, skill 2, with Offensive Doctrine, + 2 divs
       - stack 2, attacking fom province 2 in Direction 2
          - G, skill 4, no Traits, + 5 divs
          - MG, skill 1, no Traits, + 10 divs
    
       Then there are 40 divs. 
       No HQ penalties apply, as there is an HQ present.
    
       stack 1:
        - Command Penalty: 
           - Capacity set by FM at 24 for this stack (with HQ).
           - There are 25 units so 1 unit receives a -75% penalty. 
           - This will randomly be either the lowest of the FM divs, or the lowest
             of the LG divs.
       - Skill: 
          - No FM divs get a skill bonus as he has 23 divs and an undoubled 
            capacity of 12. 
          - Both the LG divs get a skill bonus 2x5 = 10%, because an LG has a 
            capacity of 3.
       - Traits: 
          - None of the 23 of FM's divs get applicable bonuses for both his traits.
             - +10% for Offensive Doctrine.
             - +10% for any armoured/mech divs in his 23, for Panzer Leader.
          - All 2 of LG's divs get bonuses for his one Trait.
    
       stack 2:
       - Command Penalty: 
          - Capacity set by G at 18 (9 for a General, doubled by a HQ in the same 
            province). 
          - There are 15 divs in the stack, so no divs get the -75% penalty.
       - Skill: 
          - All 5 of G's divs get a skill bonus of 4x5 = 20%, as his capacity is 9.
          - None of MG's divs get a skill bonus, as his capacity is 1.
       - Traits: 
          - None apply
    
    To calculate the efficiency we always start from the base of 100. We then multiply by 
    all the modifiers if the following way:
    
    
    
    In the above example we have
    
    100% base attack efficiency:
    
    *1.1 - offensive leader
    *1.0005 - exp
    *1.04 - ESE
    *0.9 - forest
    *0.75 - frozen
    *1.1 - leadership
    
    = 84.9844 %
    
    100% base defence efficiency
    *1.1 - offensive leader
    *1.0005 - exp
    *1.04 - ESE
    *0.9 - forest
    *1.1 - leadership
    
    = 113.82 %
    
    So it seems with defence efficiency some modifiers do not have any effect. These are:
    - frozen,
    - night, 
    
    Other modifiers
    --------------
    
     Combined Arms
       when units number <= CPC(not double),
       and (less than 100% and 30% or more) is Hard Units(arm mech...)...
       attacker: Eff+5%
       defender: Eff+15%
    
     Enveloped
       Eff-10% when simultaneously attacked from three directions. Furthermore, it is 
       Eff-10% for every extra direction added. 
    
     No Retreat Possible 
       Eff-10% when attacked in a province that is surrounded. Only applicable to the 
       defender.
    
     Lack of Supply 
       Eff-20%, when lack of Supply.
       Fuel is not related to this Eff.
    
     River crossing, weather and terrain modifiers
       These can be found on the 6th page of the statistics screen.
    
     Landing troops (shore)
       - 10% for each unit above the 3rd
    
     Multiple combat modifier (flanked - attacked when attacking)
       - 50% Multiple Combat
    
    Paradropping
       - Eff-15% if the formation is paradropping to enemy province.
    
     Dissent
       - dissent */2 % 
    
      Experience
       + experience of unit * /2 %
    
    Appendix
    --------
    When trying to understand the Combat Eff you see, there are a variety of
    factors you need to consider in addition to leaders:
    
    1. Weather
    2. Terrain
    3. Ministers ******
        - Several minister types affect Eff.
        - In general effects are shown on the minister screen.
        - However 'Armoured Spearhead Doctrine' (which is a Chief of Army type):
           - Gives +10% eff to armour/mech (whether as attacker or defender)
           - The screen text does not mention this. 
    4. Difficulty
    CATEGORY	VERYEASY	EASY	NORMAL	HARD	VERYHARD
    HUMAN					
    ORGANISATION	30		15	0	-15	-30
    COMBAT		10		5	0	-5	-10
    MOVE_SPEED	10		5	0	-5	-10
    INTELLIGENCE	10		5	0	-5	-10
    5. Dug-in
       - Stationary troops dig in automatically.
       - Level increases by 1 per day, to a max of 20.
       - DEfending troops will NOT dig in during a battle.
       - Each level gives eff +1%
    6. Techs ******
       - There are various techs that influence Combat Eff.
       - The 'modifiers' section of your save file summarises these for 
         each troop type.
    
    Note
    ----
    - Combat begins after the first hr. You can stop combat at any time. After 
      the 1 st hr of combat breaking off an attack will cause that the formation,
      will not be able to engange / move for the next 24hrs.
    - If a unit is able to defend itself it has a 80% chance to avoid each hit. 
      If no defences are left it has a 60% chance to avoid each hit.
    Please feel free to nitpick.

    F
    Last edited by Fiendix; 10-03-2005 at 13:07.
    HOI - FAQ v1.06c on Sea and Air Leader Efficiency
    HOI - FAQ v1.06c on Land Leader Efficiency
    HOI 2 - FAQ vDEMO on Land Leader Efficiency

  2. #2
    Custom User Title: Mr.G 24's Avatar

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    Did the stacking penalty get increased?

    When I saw this thread I knew it was you.

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    The hated one
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.G 24
    Did the stacking penalty get increased?

    When I saw this thread I knew it was you.


    no the stacking penalty is the same, at least for land. The biggy change is the way eff. gets calculated - its not a sum, but a multiplier of all the modifiers.

    One thing that bothers me is the lack (as it seems as I dont have enough units to try of stacking cap whilst defending. In other words it seems you can have hundreds of units defending one province without the -75% penalty as long as they are under the cap of a leader.. wierd idea.. (probably nobody noticed that )

    F
    HOI - FAQ v1.06c on Sea and Air Leader Efficiency
    HOI - FAQ v1.06c on Land Leader Efficiency
    HOI 2 - FAQ vDEMO on Land Leader Efficiency

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Fiendix
    One thing that bothers me is the lack (as it seems as I dont have enough units to try of stacking cap whilst defending. In other words it seems you can have hundreds of units defending one province without the -75% penalty as long as they are under the cap of a leader.. wierd idea.. (probably nobody noticed that )
    Wasn't it one of HoI1's problems that you could only defend with 24 divisions, but attack with 24 * number of provinces?
    Very few of us realise with conviction the intensely unusual, unstable, complicated, unreliable, temporary nature of the economic organisation by which Western Europe has lived for the last half century. We assume some of the most peculiar and temporary of our late advantages as natural, permanent, and to be depended on, and we lay our plans accordingly. On this sandy and false foundation we scheme for social improvement and dress our political platforms, pursue our animosities and particular ambitions, and feel ourselves with enough margin in hand to foster, not assuage, civil conflict in the European family. Moved by insane delusion and reckless self-regard, the German people overturned the foundations on which we all lived and built.
    John M. Keynes, 1919

  5. #5

    No Defending Stack Limit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiendix


    no the stacking penalty is the same, at least for land. The biggy change is the way eff. gets calculated - its not a sum, but a multiplier of all the modifiers.

    One thing that bothers me is the lack (as it seems as I dont have enough units to try of stacking cap whilst defending. In other words it seems you can have hundreds of units defending one province without the -75% penalty as long as they are under the cap of a leader.. wierd idea.. (probably nobody noticed that )

    F
    I am extremely distressed by the lack of a stacking cap for defenders. Now there will be certain provinces that are impossible to take. If defenders are still going to have the obscene speed advantage over attackers, and can massively stack the province being defended....

    Until now, the one counter the attacker had for the defender's obscene SuperSpeed advantage was the ability to make multi-province attacks and obtain numerical superiority. Now that advantage is gone.

    I will be interested in seeing if Axis have any prayer of winning MP games against decent Allied competition. At this point, I am extremely skeptical that they will. I'm not sure how the Germans are supposed to defeat the Soviet Union, and Gibraltar will never fall, meaning the Allies will always have complete control of the Med, and if amphib invasions continue to allow as many divs as possible to be dropped on a beach in one shot (with the defenders not even knowing this huge fleet is out there until the troops actually land -- stupid stupid stupid), I don't know how the Axis are supposed to win.

  6. #6
    The hated one
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zanza
    Wasn't it one of HoI1's problems that you could only defend with 24 divisions, but attack with 24 * number of provinces?
    yea however if you take into account the new combat system (support defence) in which you can move 3 times faster to the defending province plus the fact that you can dump and endless amount of units in 1 territory it worries me that this might be just too though to break through at times. Maybe cap it at 48 ...?

    F

    EDIT: HerrGeneral beat me to it - but I agree with what he says. What might be an expliot would be building tanks/mot with eng. brigade (I think they still add move) this force would be to fill holes along the border and make it harder to break the lines..
    Last edited by Fiendix; 20-12-2004 at 12:12.
    HOI - FAQ v1.06c on Sea and Air Leader Efficiency
    HOI - FAQ v1.06c on Land Leader Efficiency
    HOI 2 - FAQ vDEMO on Land Leader Efficiency

  7. #7
    Citizen G'Kar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HerrGeneral
    I am extremely distressed by the lack of a stacking cap for defenders. Now there will be certain provinces that are impossible to take.
    *snip*
    I wouldn't worry about it that much, you won't be able to pile up units in every province, you still need the units to do so. And if you are, you have numerical advantage and should win anyway. Great Britain e.g. won't be able to guard Gibraltar with dozens of units at all times, they'll be needed elsewhere. I warmly welcome the change that there's no limit to the number of defenders, it's much better than the artificial limit of HoI 1. The attacker has usually has enough other advantages (the choice of when and where, multiple directions...).
    Even better - the new mechanism of multiplying the modifiers, not adding them! No more bothering 1% battles, a friend of mine used a nuke recently just to get rid of one division in urban Leningrad...

    Typing in all capital letters went out of style with FORTRAN.

  8. #8
    Games Player steveh11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiendix
    yea however if you take into account the new combat system (support defence) in which you can move 3 times faster to the defending province plus the fact that you can dump and endless amount of units in 1 territory it worries me that this might be just too though to break through at times. Maybe cap it at 48 ...?

    F

    EDIT: HerrGeneral beat me to it - but I agree with what he says. What might be an expliot would be building tanks/mot with eng. brigade (I think they still add move) this force would be to fill holes along the border and make it harder to break the lines..
    In what way would this (extremely historical) use of mobile forces ont he defence be an 'exploit'?
    Steve.
    "Nature always obeys her own laws"
    - Leonardo da Vinci

  9. #9
    The hated one
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    Quote Originally Posted by steveh11
    In what way would this (extremely historical) use of mobile forces ont he defence be an 'exploit'?
    Steve.
    the issue is that this forces one day could be on one side of the front and then the next a couple of hundred kms on another... historical would be if we did it on a small front. Also not if we can dump unlimited amounts of units in one territory...

    F
    HOI - FAQ v1.06c on Sea and Air Leader Efficiency
    HOI - FAQ v1.06c on Land Leader Efficiency
    HOI 2 - FAQ vDEMO on Land Leader Efficiency

  10. #10
    General der Panzertruppe Inbrainsane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steveh11
    In what way would this (extremely historical) use of mobile forces ont he defence be an 'exploit'?
    Steve.

    I agree... This is no exploit, this is good tactical use of mobile forces in defense.

    I am happy with this system. I also appreciate, that there is no limit for defending stacks. And its no unfair advantage for Defender.

    Take Gibraltar as an example:

    I can attack it with 48 Divisions and no penalty. So how many units do you as GB want to store in Gibraltar ?

    12? They are wiped away..
    24? They have a good stand in Mountain, but i dont think they can hold it forever.
    36 or 48? MAN? Do you have spare 48 Divisions to put them into Gibraltar? If you do this, my Wehrmacht makes a little Summercamp between London and Edinbourgh.

    Take Moscow or Leningrad for Example:

    So you are slightly weaker or even with the Germans, and you think you exploit the lack of a defending stack penalty to your advantage... But how? With Big stacks in defense you always risk to get surrounded. And then? Lets assume you have BIG STACKs in Moscow and 2 adjacent Provinces. This will be a tough nut to crack for the Germans. But the rest of the front will be weaker then. And so Germany might avoid your Big stacks, not attack them directly. Then the Big stacks are useless. And sooner or later they get surrounded.

    The only Advantage of BIG defending stacks would be at a bottleneck. But where are such good bottlenecks? I dont think, there are any at all.

  11. #11
    General der Panzertruppe Inbrainsane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiendix
    the issue is that this forces one day could be on one side of the front and then the next a couple of hundred kms on another... historical would be if we did it on a small front. Also not if we can dump unlimited amounts of units in one territory...

    F

    Come on Fiendix. Not all Soldiers of an army are "at the front". Not every Front is hot. In the first Line you have some recon units and observation posts, then a few hundred meters behind probably some trenches and MG nests, again some hundred meters behind some bigger Trenches, Anti Tank Guns, Mines, Tanktraps etc. And all the soldiers in this first one Kilometer deep Front are less than 10% of the Division located behind.

    Few Kilometres behind is the staff of the Frontline battallions and artillery and again fortified secondary positions. Few More kilometers behind are some reserve battallions and Regiment Staff. Many Kilometers behind you have Mobile Reserves that are ready to move and not so strong fortified, Division Staff and Supply Lines. And even whole Divisions, ready to move.

    So if an adjacent Division to our example Division needs help, not our entire Division gets on the move. First of all they send their Mobile Reserves and perhaps parts of their artillery to support their neighbours. And this happens very fast, they just have to sit up, start their engines and roll. And then when more forces are needed, they step-by-step abandon their old positions and move on to the new task.

    But HOI cant simulate this, because Divisions cannot be split. So they try to represent this "red alert"-Movement of mobile Reserves by giving the whole Division a higher speed. This also simulates Military intelligence. Because In reality, you often knew, when the other side was about to attack, and you you prepared bigger mobile reserves to help at the flashpoints and for a counter-attack. All this is represented by the faster movement.

    Sorry for mistakes in my english, i am from Germany. Try to understand, what I try to explain to you.

  12. #12
    Colonel Robert Koop's Avatar

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    Great work, Fiendix. A small addition, the fortress buster decreases the effectivity of fortresses by 25% as opposed to 50% in HOI I. Fortresses give a 9,9% penalty to the attacker for each level, this was 9% in HOI I.
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  13. #13
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    Inbrainsane I can only comment based on MP issues from HOI1. There was a time in HOI1 when eng .were so fast that you could not break through as the defending side armies always managed to reach the defender before you got there. Now since movement is attack this might happen less as the battle comences. Using your arguement Paradox should not have changed anything, but they did thankfully. I am not going to say what is realistic or not (true it should be in the realm of reality) however the main thing is that it should be playable and balanced. If we are going to have an exploit that we build all eng brigades as ussr and sit behind a river and dump hundreds of units in one territory as soon as germany attacks - we need to rethink this.

    Furthermore do you know how hard it is to bust Gibraltar with 24 defending units? Have you played MP - you would be suprised what a good played can put out and still hold off a sealion? Did you see (HOI2) that the fortresses have become even more powerfull and you get a bigger penalty for attacking them? Did you notice that you get a bigger bonus for being dug in (20%)?

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  14. #14

    ...

    My huge concern is that by taking all these measures to bolster defense so as to "make it harder to win as Germany" (according to the Paradox marketing guy) in single player, they will have made it impossible for Axis to win against good human opponents. The ai is so brainless that it needs all kinds of artificial aids, but when you give an intelligent human those same artificial aids, it gives him an enormous advantage. The SuperSpeed advantage given to defense in late patches of HOI1 allows the AI to be completely stupid, react slowly, march the wrong way, then suddenly recover and still get good forces to the target province. So there is a little challenge. But with a human who responds quickly, he can use that advantage to fill the province with troops. If there is a 24-div limit, ok, the attacker can carefully build an attack from multiple provinces and get the numbers. But without the limit, the defender can simply match him numbers for numbers, or better, double his numbers.

    OK, so the attacker attacks somewhere else. But the attacker is probably not going to have the numbers to pull off multiple attacks like that, and the defender has the speed to simply move to the new threat. If the attacker tries to call off the first attack and switch somewhere else, the defender simply outraces him to the new target. It goes on and on.

    It has been my experience in a LOT of multiplayer games against very talented opponents that the ONLY way to defeat a smart defender is to assume he will have max forces in the target province, and come with 30+ divisions from more than one direction. If you don't do that, he will move enough force in to stop you. Now that there is no limit to the number of defenders, how are you going to defeat him? I simply don't see it happening. The SuperSpeed bonus is already a force multiplier for defending nations. Now the only limit on that multiplier has been removed.

    The single player game and the multiplayer game are totally different games. What assists the ai in the single player game has the effect of changing the balance in the multiplayer game. Anything that changes the balance in favor of defense changes the balance in favor of the Allies. They already have the manpower and industry advantages (as they should), if the game system is also slanted in their favor, I don't see how the Axis have a reasonable opportunity to win, and without that, there's no game.

    Hopefully the SuperSpeed thing is gone in HOI2. Watching leg infantry travel twice the distance as armor in less time is extremely frustrating for any attacker. If it's going to result in always trying to attack against 60 divisions, well, I'm not sure how long anyone is going to want to play Axis.

  15. #15
    General der Panzertruppe Inbrainsane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiendix
    Inbrainsane I can only comment based on MP issues from HOI1. There was a time in HOI1 when eng .were so fast that you could not break through as the defending side armies always managed to reach the defender before you got there. Now since movement is attack this might happen less as the battle comences. Using your arguement Paradox should not have changed anything, but they did thankfully. I am not going to say what is realistic or not (true it should be in the realm of reality) however the main thing is that it should be playable and balanced. If we are going to have an exploit that we build all eng brigades as ussr and sit behind a river and dump hundreds of units in one territory as soon as germany attacks - we need to rethink this.

    Furthermore do you know how hard it is to bust Gibraltar with 24 defending units? Have you played MP - you would be suprised what a good played can put out and still hold off a sealion? Did you see (HOI2) that the fortresses have become even more powerfull and you get a bigger penalty for attacking them? Did you notice that you get a bigger bonus for being dug in (20%)?

    F
    Quote Originally Posted by Fiendix
    I am not going to say what is realistic or not (true it should be in the realm of reality) however the main thing is that it should be playable and balanced.
    Ok, it should be playable and balanced, I agree with that point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiendix
    Using your arguement Paradox should not have changed anything, but they did thankfully.
    I think new model represents reality much better, so i also appreciate the changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiendix
    If we are going to have an exploit that we build all eng brigades as ussr and sit behind a river and dump hundreds of units in one territory as soon as germany attacks - we need to rethink this.
    I consider this only as an imbalance, if USSR is able to hold off Germany even if it has a weaker army. If USSR is superior, why shouldnt they defend themselves succesful? But i agree with you, that we will have to try it, and if its very easy to exploit weaknesses in the model, then its time for some changes...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiendix
    Furthermore do you know how hard it is to bust Gibraltar with 24 defending units? Have you played MP - you would be suprised what a good played can put out and still hold off a sealion? Did you see (HOI2) that the fortresses have become even more powerfull and you get a bigger penalty for attacking them? Did you notice that you get a bigger bonus for being dug in (20%)?
    Its hard, but its possible to bust Gibraltar. I also see, that Defender is much stronger now. But we will have to see, if its more fun or not. I expect longer Games, because in my MP Games, Game didnt last very long, once the War started. Germany did Steamroll USSR in most of the cases. And then Game was over.

    *edit* A short answer to the concerns regarding the "help defense" function: Battles start immediately. There is also a "help attack" function. So it should be possible to beat the defenders hard in the 12-24 hours until their reinforcements arrive. And it might be possible, to slow the reinforcements down with airforce...


    Conclusion(i hate long diskussions, ending nowhere): We do not really have different opinions. I am rather optimistic, you consider some problems. But I think we both will have to wait until we are indeed able to play MP, and I also think we both trust into Paradox, Johan and the betas to do their Job and make it just right. ( Perhaps with Patch 1.01 )
    Last edited by Inbrainsane; 20-12-2004 at 15:24.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Koop
    Great work, Fiendix. A small addition, the fortress buster decreases the effectivity of fortresses by 25% as opposed to 50% in HOI I. Fortresses give a 9,9% penalty to the attacker for each level, this was 9% in HOI I.
    yea thanks - I noticed that it was different, but I was confused as I didnt take into account the forts get damaged so at times they dont give bonuses at 9.9% increments- but a percentage of that.

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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Inbrainsane
    Ok, it should be playable and balanced, I agree with that point.



    I think new model represents reality much better, so i also appreciate the changes.



    I consider this only as an imbalance, if USSR is able to hold off Germany even if it has a weaker army. If USSR is superior, why shouldnt they defend themselves succesful? But i agree with you, that we will have to try it, and if its very easy to exploit weaknesses in the model, then its time for some changes...



    Its hard, but its possible to bust Gibraltar. I also see, that Defender is much stronger now. But we will have to see, if its more fun or not. I expect longer Games, because in my MP Games, Game didnt last very long, once the War started. Germany did Steamroll USSR in most of the cases. And then Game was over.

    *edit* A short answer to the concerns regarding the "help defense" function: Battles start immediately. There is also a "help attack" function. So it should be possible to beat the defenders hard in the 12-24 hours until their reinforcements arrive. And it might be possible, to slow the reinforcements down with airforce...


    Conclusion(i hate long diskussions, ending nowhere): We do not really have different opinions. I am rather optimistic, you consider some problems. But I think we both will have to wait until we are indeed able to play MP, and I also think we both trust into Paradox, Johan and the betas to do their Job and make it just right. ( Perhaps with Patch 1.01 )

    Im not so sure about longer games, i say it seem like they have succeded in making hard for Axis to win. I think an average axis player may find his MP game finished really fast...

    Good for single player though.
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  18. #18
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    I wouldn't worry too much about the higher bonuses for the defender: Remember, the modifiers are multiplied now, not summed up, so for instance -50 -20 -20 for an attacker will give now you 32% efficiency instead of 10% in HoI 1. This should be a great relief when attacking problematic provinces.

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  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye-switcher
    Good for single player though.
    And that really is the crux of it. Single player sells a lot more copies than multiplayer, so just like with HOI 1, they don't care that much about multiplayer issues, and probably won't until the multiplayer community raises a huge hue and cry as happened in the days of 1.02-1.03. Finally, after that, Paradox addressed some of the multiplayer issues and an intolerable situation became merely bad.

    Fortunately, the game is eminently moddable, and not long after it comes out, when we have had a chance to see just where the game system is broken for multiplayer, an excellent multiplayer mod or two will emerge. Of course, this will fracture the multiplayer community making it harder to find enough players for games, but what can you do?

    If the SuperSpeed advantage is taken away, then the lack of a cap will not be such a big issue. I wish there was a way to do that by a mod, but there really isn't. Maybe in HOI2 those modifiers will be accessible, and it can be made reasonable.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by HerrGeneral
    And that really is the crux of it. Single player sells a lot more copies than multiplayer, so just like with HOI 1, they don't care that much about multiplayer issues, and probably won't until the multiplayer community raises a huge hue and cry as happened in the days of 1.02-1.03. Finally, after that, Paradox addressed some of the multiplayer issues and an intolerable situation became merely bad.

    Fortunately, the game is eminently moddable, and not long after it comes out, when we have had a chance to see just where the game system is broken for multiplayer, an excellent multiplayer mod or two will emerge. Of course, this will fracture the multiplayer community making it harder to find enough players for games, but what can you do?

    If the SuperSpeed advantage is taken away, then the lack of a cap will not be such a big issue. I wish there was a way to do that by a mod, but there really isn't. Maybe in HOI2 those modifiers will be accessible, and it can be made reasonable.
    I hear you, but if Johan and the guys play MP almost every night(because its fun) and think its the best thing since EU2, that has to count for something. I sincerely dont think the MP issues are as big as they where with HOI.
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