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Massimiliano Pesaro, you make a good point. Perhaps we have become blind from the success Fodorini brought us against the Ottoman. However, we might need more maps in the East.

Doge, could you tell us more about the countries we can now reach in the east? Are there any pagans, or provinces that are not fully colonised? Are there any possible targets with very good map knowledge we could aqcuire?

Senator
Aureo Barbarigo
 
Dear Senator Barbarigo,

Your support is a great honour. Your proposal to expand our knowledge of the Asian lands by forcing some of the Indian states to share their knowledge with us is nothing less than inspiring for a young senator like me ;).

I would like to invite you to Ca Pesaro to further discuss this matter. My office already works on a proposal for the future distribution of the trading rights for Indian goods… .

Regards,
Massimiliano Pesaro
 
Dear Senator Pesaro, I would only remind you that some of the things of "why" we would possibly fight comes from our history. Certainly we CAN change our mind as we did with Alexandria. I remind dear Senator Barbarigo that he and I LOST the election about goals and ONLY uniting Italy and freeing Greek subjects were our chosen goals. I do believe capturing Alexandria was a 3rd or 4th placed result. Of course events arose that allowed us to tweak things eventually and now we are happily in command of another rich Center of Trade.

So, Pesaro, we can change our mind, but the "why" has been decided long ago my our ancestors, yours and mine.

To the point of India, I fully agree with that, though the issue of colonization has NEVER been before this august body. I would support our attempt to create New Venice in that region and would gladly send my sons to lead any military needed to protect the region. BUT, forget not that our hold over the Nile is tenuous and our long enemy controls the lower reaches near the Med.

I never want us to attack for attacking's sake. I agree that our reputation should be kept in check and my father gladly supported PEACE for over 40 years (of course, he was no politician and certainly despised war). My point is for us to take a larger view, a longer view. Rather than merely doing what might be good at the moment, let us do what will help us long after we are dead.

Perhaps that choice is no war and to allow the other nations to proceed as they will. I disagree and will continue to say what my great-great grandfather Carlo said (feel free to go back and read our history)--allowing any nation to control land that would be better in our interest is suicide! Why we allow our enemies to control land on our doorstep where they can and do interrupt our trade and worse, condemn good Christians to the scourge of their misguided religion is beyond me.

And I have asked for explanation but get none! Don't just tell me we don't want to do it (free peoples in oppresion); tell me why. I do NOT agree that these new people would necessarily become our enemies. I do see the Doge's point that the would compete with us in trade. But as I asked before, what do you propose then--just allow our enemy a home on our doorstep? This is not some minor nation or peaceful people group--this is the Ottoman Turks who have clearly demonstrated their resolve and eagerness to conquer all.

We already know we will be forced to compete with the Hapsburg families for some time and we know we don't want their land. Why not work to eliminate our enemies from around us? Why not seek to make the way for our traders on the Nile safer? We want to send armies to colonies in India--why not make their journey safer by eliminating any Ottoman presence on the journey.

Yes, let us put up colonies. Perhaps I should crash your party with Barbarigo to show you the news that our Cornaro traders bring back from that area; it would make you happy. But to do so and risk it all by leaving a snake in our yard makes no sense to me! I am no warmonger and do not believe we should attempt to fully recapture the glory of Charlemange or Rome and try to own the entire world. I do not think that proper, besides we can control all by trade and our navy! It should be noted by all nations that if they plan on doing trade in the Med, it will carried on a Venetian ship.

But to accomplish these things take a willingness to destroy the snake when you can. For far too long we have tolerated the presence of the infidel and in fact, tacitly allowed him to expand north and east (perhaps the Slavs will have more resolve than us and eliminate this scourge).

You all tell me that we can't own the land because it is poor. And you tell me that we can't free the people because they might not like us later or hurt our trade. And you thus tell me not fear my enemy who has clearly shown again and again his willingness to attack. And you tell me to support sending money and men to a far distant place when our own homeland is not fully secure. There is no logic in this and no one yet seems capable of explaining it to me.

Perhaps you have too much faith in dear Fodoroni to be able to extract us from one more terrible situation. Do you not realize how close we came to destruction last time when an enemy struck us AFTER we KNEW we needed to deal with him? I trust Fodoroni, but not that much! We need to ensure that he does NOT have to pull a rabbit out of his hat.

The snake is wounded. Let us eliminate him once and for all from being an issue in our homeland! Then we can trade with ease and send colonists to India or perhaps other places.

[ooc--this is a great discussion and much fun; I even seem some modern parallels and the great choices we make--which is going to actually be better for a country and its trade and such--all this and we actually don't even have a vote before us. Enjoying it very much with you guys! :) ]
 
Fellow Senators,

Let me first say that it warms my heart to see so many new senators joining our discussions. Like Senators Cornaro, my family has served in the Senate without interruption since 1419, but new blood and new ideas are always welcome.

I would like to comment on some of the expeditions being proposed.

1) Attack Genoa. This is madness! They have only two provinces, no navy, and 31,000 troops on Corsica, which is mountainous and offers few supplies.
Where will our warscore come from? Only from a direct attack on Corsica, which would cost 20,000 casualties, atleast, and yet we might fail. We all know our army is no good in pitched battle, we concentrate on siege techniques. I voted against this, and it may have cost my brother his life, when the Crimean scum annihilated his army, but we are a Republic and we must stand by the decisions of the Senate. Nevertheless, we must know our strengths, and weaknesses, and this assault would be sheer folly.

2) Attack the Turks. This I support. What my peaceloving colleagues seem to forget is that we have a rare opportunity here. The Turks have demanded Cyprus, giving us a CB all of Europe recognizes. This has cause our allies and other to raise their opinion of us. This time we need not fight alone. Spain, Theodoros and Bulgaria will join us, and we can maneuver to grant them provinces, while we take only Smyrna, rich and Greek, and any Catholic province in the Balkans (Bosnia?, Serbia?). This way we hurt our foe, strengthen our allies, and limit our reputation loss.

3) Expand into India. This I fully support, also. There are great riches there, or so I'm told, and where there are riches, there must be Venetians to trade them.

Thank you all for listening, and I look forward to our next vote, and a lively debate.

Respectfully,

Ernesto Gandolfi III
 
Honorable Doge,
Respected Capitano Generale,
Fellow Senators,

Having just returned from my journey across the lands of the Holy Roman Empire, let me tell you, even if those news are not news to you, that the lords of the north are hating us. Eager on battling the Infidels, we have forgotten to stay friends with our coreligionates, and most of them, be it the Duke of Saxony, the Margrave of Brandenburg, the Archbishop of Koln, the Dukes of Bavaria or of Prussia, they now hate us. For our warmongering has earned us a rather bad reputation. So, I advise against staging another war. Let us be ready to defend ourselves, yes, that is caution. Planning another assault on one of our neighbours, is foolishness to my eyes.

Let's face it : any turmoil in our Serenissima Repubblica (not so serene these days - please forgive that easy pun) is taking forever to settle, and given the state of our army we can't afford to let the risk of revolts stay high for long. This is another consequence of our bad reputation, and more wars, more conquests won't help the situation.

I would also tell a word on our choice of allies. First, what are our strengths ? Let us enumerate them : our powerful navy, our commercial endeavours. Given the situation, those are strengths that will be of little use against our most immediate neighbours : Austria and Hungary.
What are we lacking ? A good sized and efficient army. And what can our allies give us ? Bulgaria and Theodoros are too small to be of much use, and Spain is far away. Moreover, Spain's main help would be its naval forces, given the distance that separates them from our enemies, except if we were to battle France and Burgundy. So, none of our allies can give us what we desperately need, an army.

What I suggest, is to cut our alliance to Spain, and join the Hungaro-Polish Alliance (we would probably need to send some gifts, to help soften up our relations). This would help us much more, be it in our wars against the Osmanlis Turks, or against the Hapsburgs. The King of Hungary would be glad to take the Christians of Bosnia, Rumelia, Wallachia and other provinces under his protection, and this would not further ruin our reputation. In doing so, Senator Cornaro, your quest for the freedom of all christians will be fulfilled. After all, those provinces are too poor for us to desire to extend our suzerainty upon them, aren't they ? It is much more interesting for us to extend our territory in the remaining parts of the italian peninsula, in Sicily or in Emilia. Spain is much more our enemy than Hungary or Poland.

Finally, I am sorry to tell it, but it is not realistic to hope to free the smyrnan Greeks. Our best defense against the Turks is to raise a wall of wood on the Aegean and Marmara Seas. We will already have a hard time in defending our egyptian possessions (which we could expand to Egypt proper, Delta and Quattara, if we were to be attacked by the Turks). But liberating the Greeks of Smyrna would pull us on the other side of the sea, opening one more land front (it would be the third one), stretching our ressources far too thin for our security.

On the subject of India, on the other hand, I am fully in favor of conquering the southern, under-developped provinces, and teach them the light of our italian and catholic ways. This would give us a much stronger base in the Indian Ocean, giving us a head start comparing to Portugal, and decreasing our dependency on Egypt to maintain a presence in Asia.

Speaking of Asia, I am in favor of using military accesses and minimal cavalry armies to discover as much lands as possible, to start trading without intermediaries in the markets of China, India and, - who knows ? - beyond.

Or so do I speak, I,
Senator Sergio Gradenigo


[OOC] This is really a great AAR, it was really fun to read, and now I want to participate in.
Ambassador​
 
Dear friends, It is good to see you discussing so much about the important issues that must be resolved. This will ensure that we take the right decisions. I am also quite abated to see that some of the historic decisions that our predecessors took in the past have not come to realize, while others that they rejected did happen. However this is intrinsic to our representative system of government. What everybody desires and it is promised before elections, does not come to happen after elections, and those things that nobody desired, like tax raising, also tend to happen between elections.

However the Serenissima will always live in the present, planning for the future, and only those things that constitute our essential nature (like our defensiveness bonus, since it would take 90 dedicated years to turn it into an offensive bonus) will be upheld. For the rest, the present senate has the authority to overturn.

I have been talking to the merchants coming from our outpost in Kerala. I will display again the map, so you can follow my explanations.

1568b.jpg

All the territories in India are taken by other nations. Even if they are heretical in their beliefs and do not recognize Jesus Christ, they are not pagans. They are Vijayanagar (Bluish Green), Mysore (Brown), Orissa (Light Green), Rajputana (Red), China (yellow) and Lanka (Orange). Our relationships are quite bad with all of them. The South of India is not fully colonized, and Cochin is a level 4 colony, while Trivandrum is a level 5. They both belong to Vijayanagar, who is allied to Rajputana and Orissa. Currently there are 29,000 machete waving soldiers in Cochin.

In Africa all the nations are muslim, except Orthodox Ethiopia (Brown). They are Adal (Bluish Green), Mogadishu (Light Gray), Malindi (Bright Red) and Kilwa (Orange).

We currently know only of two uncolonised provinces. Nefedora in the Ural river, next to Sibir and unaccesible to us, and Louga, a former Portuguese trading post in West Africa with very low tax value (1) and producing Ivory. Louga is a coastal province with a thousand relatively pacific natives.

Regarding maps, you will have noticed that Spain will never share their West Indies discoveries with us. However there are better solutions than going to war against the Indians only for the maps. The Quirini brothers have spoken with Indian merchants. They are willing for a price to take our embassies to several far-East countries of whose existance we are aware, but that we cannot reach on our own. These are Brunei, Malacca, Cambodia, Lan Xang, Manchu and Tibet. Our relationships with them are just average, and it would not be very expensive to convince some of them to trade maps with us, since we have so much knowledge to offer them. This policy was already aproved some time ago, but we have been unable to come up with the necessary funds yet due to our wars.

Senator Gandolfi, only Bosnia is Catholic in the entire Ottoman empire.
 
Dear senators, the different positions defended in our meetings garantee that this will be one of the most interesting elections so far. Unlike in other periods, I have decided to make a special election to make sure that the final decision regarding peace or war would be the one supported by the majority of senators.

[size=+1]Election 56. 1569 war and peace opportunities[/size]

1. War or peace. Choose one.
A. Six years of war in the last ten is enough. Our country needs peace to recover. I vote for peace.
B. Now is the time to attack our enemy. I vote for war.

2. If war is decided, who do you think we should be making war to.
A. The Genoese
B. The Turks
C. The Indians
D. Other (specify)

3. If we decide to make war to the Ottoman Empire, what do you think should be our goal? Maximum two can be voted.
A. Greek cultured provinces for us to keep (Smyrna & Trabzond)
B. Balkan provinces to be released as vassals
C. Balkan provinces to keep
D. Egyptian provinces to keep
E. Holy land to keep
F. Other (specify)

4. Do you favor the stablishment of a trading post in Louga?

5. Do you favor the eventual stablishment of a colony in Louga?

[size=+1]Election 57. 1569-1589 Domestic Policies changes[/size]

Indicate what the next three sliders movements should be. I will first select the three most popular movements and then I will order them according to their frecuencies. Repetitions within the same ballot will be considered separately. For example a vote:
C+ C+ A+
Click to expand...
will not count as two votes for one increase in centralization, but will count as one vote for two increases in centralization and on the third movement an increase for aristocracy. Use (L-) for an increase in Naval for example.

Initials and current values are:
Code: 
(A)ristocracy      4
(C)entralization  10
(I)nnovativeness   5
(M)ercantilism     8
(O)ffensive        1
(L)and             1
(Q)uality          8
(S)erfdom          1

Remember that if you vote C+, C+, C+ it counts as one vote for 3 increases in centralization, and not three votes for one increase in centralization. It does not make the first increase in centralization any more probable that if you vote S-, M-, C+

As after much discussion it was decided to be very defensively oriented for the entire game, O+ votes are therefore not allowed, and will be ignored.


[size=+1]Election 58. 1569-1579 International Situation[/size]

This election is to orient the work of our diplomats and advance our goals. State as many countries as you want that we should befriend or attack according to the following categories. Look in the report for CBs and current relationships to orient yourself.

1. Dear Friends. Countries that we should try to ally (or keep in the alliance), marry and get military access with. Diplomatic gifts are in general restricted to this category.

2. Friends. Countries that we want to keep good relationships and marry, but we don't want in our alliance.

3. Adversaries. Countries that we would like to hit if the conditions are right, but are not currently direct targets. Military access is not out of the question since we don't plan to DoW them but could find at war with them.

4. Enemies. Countries that we should get at war with, if the conditions are right. This should include countries that are not strictely enemies, but that we could take a province or vassalize to pursue long term goals.

War will be decided separately through election 56 this time.
 
I have spoken enough [ooc--helps to have some free time in my office--tee-hee :rolleyes: ]

Election 56
1. B (duh!)
2. B (double duh!) :)
3. D, B (I would prefer that as others suggested, we work the war [as best we can] to have our allies Theodorus and Bulgaria take the land, but I know that can be tricky). This is a tough choice because I want Symrna for all the reasons such as our historic goal voting choice and Greek culture and so forth, but my loudest position has been eliminating the OE from Europe, so I'll stick with that).
4. Yes
5. Yes
Click to expand...

Election 57
1. Q+ Q+ I-
Click to expand...

Election 58
1. Theodorus, Bulgaria, Spain, Portugal
2. Netherlands, Austria, Papal States, France, Savoy, Switzerland, The Knights, Bavaria, Cologne
3. Genoa, Burgundy, Hungary, Crimea,
4. OE
Click to expand...
 
Election 56

1. WAR!
2. B. C. (only with CB). Our CB vs. Ott. will soon expire. Strike now with Allies. Genoa is too strong in Corsica.
3. A. F. (provinces for allies + $)
4. Yes. (Be sure to garrison vs. Portugal with ToT rights)
5. Yes.

Election 57

Q+ I- I- We need better morale, and more free conversions.

Election 58

DF Spain, Bulgaria, Theodoros, Savoy, Knights, Poland, Papal States
F Portugal, Bavaria, Cologne, Ethiopia
Adv France, England, Netherlands, Burgundy, Genoa
En Ottomans, Vijayanagar
Click to expand...
Respectfully,

Ernesto Gandolfi III
 
Election

"Election 56

1. A (peace)

2. A

3. A

4. Yes

5. Yes (only if we can afford it)

Election 57

A+ I+

Election 58

Dear Friends: Spain, Hungary, Bulgaria, Thedodoros, Bulgaria, Savoy, The Knights, Poland, Papal States, Bavaria

Friends: Portugal, Cologne, Ethiopia, Burgundy, France

Rivals: England, Netherlands

Enemies: Genoa, Ottomans, Vijayanagar"


Cuthbertus III
 
Gradenigo.gif
Honorable Senate,

Please hear my vote.

On the question of war, I vote for peace, because we need time to restore our wealth. Time, to restore our armies and further expand our fleets. Time, to enhance our reputation.

The Indians can wait, but should this noble assembly finally opt for a warlike stance, they seem the best shot we have. Their lands are far away from Europe, if we take their under-developped provinces it will trigger less hard feelings on us from our immediate neighbours. But it would be advisable to first finish the colonization of Kerala, second build a large enough fleet to ferry our troops, third to improve our military knowledges to get a greater edge in battle (IOW, reaching land 14, or even land 18), and fourth to get some valid reason to declare war to them to minimize the stress on our reputation.

If, against all my counsels, the Senate opts for a war with the Turks, we should have as objectives liberation of the balkanic provinces by our allies, especially if it is an offensive war. But Egypt, Delta and Quattara are also valid goals, as it would improve the defensibility of our egyptian holdings by limiting to one province the risk of invasion (Egypt, against troops coming from Sinai).

On the subject of the colonization of Louga, let me inform you on the mind of the King of Porgugal, whom I have met a few months ago. Sebastiao I, King of Portugal, is rather adamant about the rights of his crown in regards to property of faraway lands. Should we decide to implant ourselves, by a trading post or a colony, in Louga, which he considers as rightfully owned by his country, we have to be prepared to defend our establishment, by force of arms. And it is a faraway province to defend.

On the subject of our domestic policies, my opinion is that we should further improve the quality of our already small armies, since we can't rely on massive numbers of soldiers, and we have the possibility to adopt a new firing drill which would make them more efficient ; that we should give more rights, and more freedom, to our citizens, as it will make our soldiers more reliable (we have seen the limits of their bravery in Steyermark not long ago) ; and that we should complete our move towards a naval supremacy, for Venice's future is upon the waves.

On the subject of our international relations, I refer you to my previous speech : Hungary and Poland would make better allies than Spain.
Should we get attacked by another country, valid objectives in my eyes are : all italian provinces, Tyrol, Egypt-Delta-Quattara, Portugal's colonies & TPs in the Indian Ocean or elsewhere, other isles (Balearic's, Canaria's, Carribean's, Bahrein, Socotra, etc), under-developped provinces in India.

This is my vote, and the reasons guiding me.

Senator Sergio Gradenigo

Code: 
[b][size=+1][color=Brown]Election 56. 1569 war and peace opportunities[/color][/size][/b]
1. A (peace)
2. C (Indians)
3. F (other, see text)
4. No (not yet)
5. No (not yet)

[b][size=+1][color=Black]Election 57. 1569-1589 Domestic Policies changes[/color][/size][/b]
Q+ S- L-

[b][size=+1][color=DarkGreen]Election 58. 1569-1579 International Situation[/color][/size][/b]
1. Dear Friends : Hungary, Poland, Theodoros, Bulgaria
2. Friends : Papal States, the Netherlands, the HRE (except Austria)
3. Adversaries : Portugal, Spain, Ottoman Empire, Austria
4. Enemies : Vijayanagar, Genoa
 
contarini.gif



Election 56. 1569 war and peace opportunities

1. War or peace. Choose one.
B. Now is the time to attack our enemy. I vote for war.

2. If war is decided, who do you think we should be making war to.
B. The Turks

3. If we decide to make war to the Ottoman Empire, what do you think should be our goal? Maximum two can be voted.
D. Egyptian provinces to keep
E. Holy land to keep


4. Yes

5. YES
Click to expand...

Election 57. 1569-1589 Domestic Policies changes
Q+ S- L-
Click to expand...

Election 58. 1569-1579 International Situation

This election is to orient the work of our diplomats and advance our goals. State as many countries as you want that we should befriend or attack according to the following categories. Look in the report for CBs and current relationships to orient yourself.

1. Dear Friends.Theodorus, Bulgaria, Spain, Portugal
2. Friends. Netherlands,, Papal States, France, Savoy, Switzerland, Bavaria
3. Adversaries. Burgundy, Hungary, Crimea
4. Enemies. Ottoman Empire, Genoa
Click to expand...

Respectfully,
Senator Enrico Contarini
 
Barbarigo.gif
Aureo Barbarigo​

Gradenigo's outlines for the conquest of southern India are wise.
I had forgotten, perhaps willingly, that that my ancestor was voteed down on the issue of capturing Alexandria. I guess the possibility to reach the east worked in favour of that idea.
Since we have a CB against the Ottomans we might as well use it for finishing of the mission of releasing the Greeks. If we want to weaken the Ottomans, Smyrna is a good target since it's likely to be their richest province. The Balkan lands they can keep, they ensure us victory in every war with the Ottomans. As a compromise in my old days with those that want to free all Slavic provinces, I agree to trying to take Bosnia, but it ought to be a secondary objective. However, if we do vote in favour of this war, we are likely to have very bad reputation and high stab costs, and our hands will be tied. A war for southern India could be fit in when our colony is finished, since we only aim for taking colonies. I don't think we even should wait for a CB for that!

Code: 
Election 56.

1. War or peace. Choose one.
B. Now is the time to attack our enemy. I vote for war.

2. If war is decided, who do you think we should be making war to.
B. The Turks
C. The Indians

3. If we decide to make war to the Ottoman Empire, what do you think should be our goal?
A. Greek cultured provinces for us to keep (Smyrna & Trabzond)
C. Balkan provinces to keep (only Catholic Bosnia)

4. Do you favor the stablishment of a trading post in Louga?
No.

5. Do you favor the eventual stablishment of a colony in Louga?
No, not yet. We might lose it to Portugal and we should focus all efforts on India.

Code: 
Election 57. 1569-1589 Domestic Policies changes
Q+ L- I-

Code: 
Election 58
1. Theodorus, Bulgaria, Spain, Savoy, The Knights,
2. Netherlands, Austria, Papal States, France, Switzerland, Bavaria, Cologne, Portugal, Ethiopia
3. Genoa
4. OE, Vijayanagar

I do think handing out gifts for maps of the east is a good idea, bu I have not listed any of the targets as friends.
 
Vendramin.gif


Matteo Vendramin​
Doge and Senators,

As I stated before, the first thing we need is a respite, for our people to settle down. I'm also worried by the reputation of imperialistic, land grabbing nation that we've been unjustly receiving by liberating christians from the Turk. That, too, will need time to heal. I say we wait with war against Ottomans as long as our CB allows us, if, indeed, we decide to attack them.
Being a new member of this esteemed body, while respecting tradition, I do not find myself bound by it. New times are opening new horizons, immesurable riches of India and Africa are within our reach, so forget the old decaying Europe.
As for our goals in a possible war with the Turk, I'm for an opportunistic approach - take what we are offered, it's bound to exceed what we could from our own demands, than do with it wharever seems appropriate, annex or make into vassals.
And while the peace reignes, we should devote ourselves to colonisation, taking care to provide enough support of soldiers to dissuade other colonial powers that might have designs on the same territory, to take it by force.
Code: 
[b][color=Brown]Election 56. 1569 war and peace opportunities[/color][/b]

1. War or peace. Choose one.
B. I vote for war, but not an immediate one.

2. If war is decided, who do you think we should be making war to.
C. The Indians
B. The Turks


3. If we decide to make war to the Ottoman Empire, what do you think should be our goal? Maximum two can be voted.
D. Egyptian provinces to keep
B. Balkan provinces to be released as vassals

4. Do you favor the establishment of a trading post in Louga? Yes

5. Do you favor the eventual establishment of a colony in Louga? Yes

We need better morale for our troops, and more colonists, so:

Code: 
[b][color=Black]Election 57. 1569-1589 Domestic Policies changes[/color][/b]
Q+, Q+, I-
(OOC: do we have a shipyard yet?)


Keep our allies happy, we might need them, and goodwill of Spain and Portugal might prevent them from attampting to take our colonies from us.
A declaration of war from Ottomans or Genoese would be welcome.

Code: 
[b][color=DarkGreen]Election 58. 1569-1579 International Situation[/color][/b]
1. Dear Friends: Theodorus, Bulgaria, Spain, Portugal

2. Friends: Hungary, Austria, Savoy, France

3. Adversaries: Uzbeks, Africans

4. Enemies: Ottomans, Genoa, Indians
 
trevisan2sz.gif

Noble Senate,
here is my vote:

Code: 
[b][color=Brown]Election 56. 1569 war and peace opportunities[/color][/b]
1. B war, but wait till we are ready.
2. C. The Indians: Let us explore the Indian riches.
3. A. No, too hard to defend
   B. Yes
   C. No, we don't want these provinces
   D. ?  Not sure, I abstain from voting.
   E. No, , look what happened to the last crusaders to take the Holy Land
4. No, we don't want to expand into Africa but into India and the far east!!
5. No, this is also Portugal's sphere of interest, we might lose our colony very soon indeed.

Code: 
[b][color=Black]Election 57. 1569-1589 Domestic Policies changes[/color][/b]
  I-, Q+, I-

Code: 
[b][color=DarkGreen]Election 58. 1569-1579 International Situation[/color][/b]
1. Dear Friends.  Spain, Bulgaria, Theodoros
2. Friends.       Austria, Hungary, Papal States, Knights
3. Adversaries.   Genoa, Ottomans
4. Enemies.       Vijayanagar

Respectfully, Senator Manolo Trevisan
 
Last edited:
Ziani.gif

Honorable Doge,
Respected Capitano Generale,
Fellow Senators and members of the most august Consiglio,

Reaffirming my previous statement supporting peace in the near future,

Expressing concern for the reputation and credibility of the Serenissima Repubblica,

Stressing the importance of commercial growth,

Welcoming territorial expansion beyond Europe and the Mediterranean,

I encourage the Consiglio to adopt a policy of peace,

to avoid direct conflict with the self-proclaimed "Ottoman Empire",

to expand trade in West Africa, viz. the province of Louga,

to reform the navy,

to befriend our neighbores,

to monitor the colonial powers that limit our potential to expand;

and invite all members of the Consiglio to join my cause for peace and prosperity in a greater Serenissima Repubblica.

best,
Senator Agostino Ziani


Code: 
Election 56. 1569 war and peace opportunities

1. War or peace. Choose one.
A. Six years of war in the last ten is enough. Our country needs peace to recover. I vote for peace.

2. If war is decided, who do you think we should be making war to.
A. The Genoese
C. The Indians
Only with CB.

3. If we decide to make war to the Ottoman Empire, what do you think should be our goal? Maximum two can be voted.
A. Greek cultured provinces for us to keep (Smyrna & Trabzond)
D. Egyptian provinces to keep

4. I favor the stablishment of a trading post in Louga.

5. I favor the eventual stablishment of a colony in Louga.

Code: 
Election 57. 1569-1589 Domestic Policies changes

S- L- Q+ (If peace in the next decade)
Q+ S- L- (If war in the next decade)

Code: 
Election 58. 1569-1579 International Situation

1. Dear Friends. Theodorus, Bulgaria.

2. Friends. Spain, Austria, Hungary, Poland, Papal States, France, Savoy, The Knights, Helvetica.

3. Adversaries. Portugal, England, Netherlands.

4. Enemies. Genoa, Ottoman Empire, Vijayanagar.
 
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Code: 
Election 56
1 A (except in case we plan on leaving the alliance with Spain. Then I think we should attack Genoa.)
2 A
3 A,D
4 Yes
5 Yes

Code: 
Election 57
Q+ A+ L-

Code: 
Election 58
DF: Hungary, Theodoros, Bulgaria
F: Papal States, France, Burgundy
A: OE, Austria
E: Genoa, Vijangar

Esteemed Doge,
Fellow Senators of the Serenissima Republica,

I am wondering why some of my fellow senators seem so eager to attack the Ottoman Empire. It's hardly profitable, after all we already control the trade in their empire after we captured Alexandria.
And when have they attacked us for the last time. I can hardly remember. Yet they are still considered a threat. So I see no reason to start a war with them now.
If we want to 'liberate' the Balkans from them, let us support the Hungarians. Having the Hungarians as friends might also help to keep the treacherous Habsburgs in check.

An attack on Genoa on the other hand might profit us. We might not be able to take Corsica, but we will be able to capture Genoa and force them to allow our traders there. If we are lucky our Spanish allies might even take Corsica. (OOC: The fact that this would end Genoa being a vassal of Spain of course has nothing to do with this proposal :rolleyes: )

Further I fully support colonization attempts in India. We need to protect our trade income and can't allow the Portuguese to take control of the trade between India en Europe. We might even take some colonies from Vijangar, but I think we should first strengthen our position in India before starting a war.
 
Election 56
1 A
2 B
3 B and D
4 Yes
5 Yes

Election 57
A+

Election 58
Dear Friends: Hungary, Papal States, Spain
Friends: France, Austria, Theodoros, Bulgaria
Adversaries: England, Portugal, Holland
Enemies: Ottoman Empire, Genoa
Click to expand...

Fellow Respectable Senators,
I hope my vote helps.
Senator Gatt

Post Script - Beat the Ottoman out of Europe
 
Prussian_King said:
Post Script - Beat the Ottoman out of Europe
Click to expand...

PK--not at all telling you how to vote, but you voted for peace but then said the above as a postscript. Was that a change to vote for war? I'm confused. Just curious.
 
carlec said:
PK--not at all telling you how to vote, but you voted for peace but then said the above as a postscript. Was that a change to vote for war? I'm confused. Just curious.
Click to expand...
Dear Senator Cornaro, I think Senator Gatt is abounding in my opinion, since he listed Hungary as being our Dear Friend.

Or so I hope.

Respectfully,
Senator Gradenigo
 
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