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Thread: The Democratic BAR: Your vote counts

  1. #101
    Porphyrogenitus Norrefeldt's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fodoron
    Elections 1 and 2 are closed as of now. New council members are welcome at any time, but the country and settings are already fixed. Results will be appended to the respective elections shortly.
    Excellent minister Fodoron! Now, bring us the most up to date documents on the state of our proud nation. Wait, don't go just yet! We need the spies' reports on the doings of our neigbours as well. Thank you!
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  2. #102
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    Great, Venice passed.

    Well, I think we're a bit numerous to be the Council of Ten, we have several choices :
    - the Great Council, a legislative chamber whose members were nobles (no real election to be in there) ; its competency was to vote laws (sometimes after the Senate had voted on them), to nominate magistrates (all public offices), to create new posts, to delegate missions (sometimes to commitees composed of some of its members), to grant nobility to new families, to know of military & financiary problems tied to state of war ; was composed of over 1000 members
    - the Senate, which is a "council of government", composed of members of the Great Council ; its competencies greatly increased with time, and were to decide war & peace and globally of all exterior politics, had a large financiary competency, and also was the primary responsible of the conquered territories (anything outside of the city) ; by 1450, membership numbered in the 250's.

    Preferences ?

  3. #103
    Captain Keledor's Avatar
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    Might i suggest that before we begin this AAR, we start a new thread without all of these setting posts.
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  4. #104
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    Can I add a comment? Considering Venice is a perfect stage for intrigues, commerce, diplomacy and so on, could we suppose some role-playing in the Senate? For this purpose, I could be Count Moro (my real surname and a quite common family name in Venice, especially among supposed descendants of some Moorish immigrate).

    Oh, I support the idea of splitting the forum in two: one for elections/reports and one for discussions only
    Last edited by Hastu Neon; 15-11-2004 at 14:06.
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  5. #105
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    1419 Initial report



    Economy
    Stability +2 (+1 after DP)
    Initial Funds = 250D
    Provinces:
    Code:
    Province      Tax       Prod     Manp
    Veneto       16.5       4.33     4.0
    Ragusa        1.84      5.85     0
    Istria        2.40      1.52     0
    Ionia         2.28      3.90     0.8
    Crete         3.80      4.85     0.8
    Corfú         3.04      3.03     0.8
    1419 Monthly income:
    Tax 9.3
    Prod 2.0
    Trade 5.9
    Total 17.2

    14 merchants in CoTs
    6 merchants available (5/year)
    cost of placement is 4-5 in Italy, 8-9 in Europe, 17 in Alexandria.
    Trade efficiency is 54% (first nation).

    National
    Monarch Tommaso Mocenigo
    Military Good
    Administrative Average
    Diplomacy Poor

    aristocracy = 4
    centralization = 3
    innovative = 4
    mercantilism = 5
    offensive = 2
    land = 2
    quality = 6
    serfdom = 4


    Technology
    Land 1
    Naval 2
    Trade 3
    Production 2

    1 colonist available (3.6/year)

    Religion: Catholicism
    0 missionaries available (1.4/year)
    Conversion (cost, chances):
    Veneto, Istria are catholic
    Ragusa (380, 24%), Corfú (245, 50%), Ionia (222, 53%), Crete (261, 52%) are orthodox

    Military

    Maximum morale is 1.6 + 1 - 0.02 = 2.58

    Leaders:
    Land: Savorgnan (4,2,2,1)
    Naval: P. Loredan (4,3,4)

    Army 10k infantry, 5k cavalry
    maintenance cost at 100% 2 D/month
    Navy 5 warships, 30 galleys, 5 transports
    maintenance cost at 100% 1.5 D/month

    Cost of army units:
    Infantry 13D
    Cavalry 27D

    Manpower = 5
    Manpower pool = 10 (1/month)
    Army support limit = 25 000
    Navy support limit = 73

    International

    1) Standing
    Cores (Permanent CB):
    Dalmatia (Hungary), Morea (Morea), Hellas (Athens), Mantua (Milan), Cyprus (Cyprus)
    Allies: Athens
    At war with Hungary (Venice is aggressor)
    Countries with permanent CB on Venice:
    Albania, Morea, Hungary, Byzanthine Empire.

    2) Neighbours and near-neighbours by areas (relationship, allies). Underlined countries have land/strait border to Venice:
    Italy: Milan (-50), Modena (+125), Tuscany (+125), Siena (+125), Papal States (+125, Naples)
    North: Tyrol (+105, Austria, Styria), Schwyz (+125), Wirtemberg (+125), Bavaria (+125, Palatinate)
    Danubian: Austria (+125, Tyrol, Styria), Styria (+49, Austria, Tyrol), Hungary (-107, Bohemia, Luxemburg, Serbia)
    Balcan/Carpatian: Albania (-37, OE, Bosnia, Wallachia), Wallachia (+25, OE, Bosnia, Albania), Bosnia (+75, OE, Albania, Wallachia), Serbia (+5, Hungary, Bohemia, Luxemburg), Ottoman Empire (+0, Bosnia, Wallachia, Albania), Athens (+25, Venice), Byzantine Empire (+150, Morea), Morea (-175, Byzantine Empire)
    Mediterranean: The knights (+125), Cyprus (+25)
    Anatolia: Ghazi (-35), Karaman (+0)

    3) Vassalages:
    Bosnia, Wallachia, Albania, Bizantine Empire and Karaman are vassals of OE
    Morea is a vassal of Bizantine Empire
    Serbia is a vassal of Hungary
    Athens is a vassal of Venice

    Jump to the 1423 Report.
    Last edited by Fodoron; 26-11-2004 at 21:18.
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  6. #106
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    Election 3. 1419-1439 Domestic Policies changes

    Indicate what the first three sliders movements should be. I will first select the three most popular movements and then I will order them according to their frecuencies. Repetitions within the same ballot will be considered separately. For example a vote:
    C+ C+ A+
    will not count as two votes for one increase in centralization, but will count as one vote for two increases in centralization and on the third movement an increase for aristocracy. Use (L-) for an increase in Naval for example.

    Initials are:

    (A)ristocracy
    (C)entralization
    (I)nnovativeness
    (M)ercantilism
    (O)ffensive
    (L)and
    (Q)uality
    (S)erfdom

    Results are:
    1419 Increase in Centralization (10 votes)
    1429 Increase in Mercantilism (5 votes)
    1439 Increase in Centralization (6 votes)
    Increase in Innovativeness was close with 4 votes.
    Last edited by Fodoron; 22-11-2004 at 16:11.
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  7. #107
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    Election 4. 1419 Hungarian war

    In January 1419 we are already at war against Hungary. We are the aggressor and we have control over Dalmatia. Respective allies (Serbia, Luxemburg and Bohemia for them, and Athens for us) do not participate. Estimated enemy forces are above 30k (to our 15k) and their capacity to raise new armies should more than double ours.

    In case we come out victorious, what do we want to gain? Name provinces. We will always try to get money, but the actual amount depends on how much they've got. If the goals are other state them. Remember we are the aggressor and Dalmatia is our core.

    Election 4
    1. Goals
    2. Minimum acceptable offer.
    If you have any suggestions on the strategy to achieve the goals state them next. Final strategy is on Field Commander's hands and according to his capabilities. He has already experienced war and doesn't need basic advice like:
    -siege as many provinces as possible- or -do not face strong enemies on pitched battles-.

    PS: This election is closed. Results are:

    1. Goals: Dalmatia (11/13 votes)
    2. Minimum acceptable offer: White peace (6/13 votes)

    Comments: You are very generous. Achieving this goal should be really easy. On number 2 the second choice was money (4 votes).
    Last edited by Fodoron; 19-11-2004 at 17:08.
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  8. #108
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    Code:
    Election 3
    A- C+ C+
    Code:
    Election 4
    1. Dalmatia
    2. Money only, but no losses of territory
    Hungary is not our prime enemy. Genoa is a more serious competitor, and we should be the only trading power in the Mediterranean Sea.
    Also, the Heathens can't be trusted, as they don't worship the same God as us, so we have to side with the remnants of the Byzantine Empire (we can more easily control a skeleton empire than a strong and firmly established one).

  9. #109
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    Election 5. 1419-1429 International Situation

    This election is to orient the work of our diplomats and advance our goals. State the countries that we should befriend or attack according to the following categories.

    1. Dear Friends. Countries that we should try to ally (or keep in the alliance), marry and get military access with. Look in the report for CBs and current relationships.

    2. Friends. Countries that we want to keep good relationships and marry, but we don't want in our alliance.

    3. Adversaries. Countries that we would like to hit if the conditions are right, but are not currently direct targets. Military access is not out of the question since we don't plan to DoW them but could find at war with them.

    4. Enemies. Countries that we should get at war with, if the conditions are right. This should include countries that are not strictely enemies, but that we could take a province or annex to pursue long term goals.

    Remember the format:
    Election 5
    1. XXXX, XXXX
    2. XXXX, XXXX, XXXX, XXXX
    3. XXXX, XXXX
    4. XXXX, XXXX, XXXX
    RESULTS: Very difficult to compute due to huge spread.

    1 Dear Friends: Modena (7), Tuscany (7), Siena (5, they are gone), Papal States (3), Austria (3), Byzantium (3)

    2 Friends: Naples (4), Austria (4), Papal States (3), Hungary (3), Swytzerland (3), Siena (3, they are gone)

    3 Adversaries: Ottoman Empire (7), Aragon (4), Hungary (4), Egypt (3)

    4 Enemies: Genoa (9), Milan (8), Ottoman Empire (5), Byzantium (3)
    Last edited by Fodoron; 22-11-2004 at 16:19.
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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keledor
    Might i suggest that before we begin this AAR, we start a new thread without all of these setting posts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hastu Neon
    Oh, I support the idea of splitting the forum in two: one for elections/reports and one for discussions only
    This should be the thread where people come to follow the game: elections, discussions and reports, and give their input on how things should go ahead.

    I very much like the idea of a brother thread where people can write posts in AAR format, contribute pictures, historic background and get in character. It would be very much like a collaborative AAR. I am willing to contribute from time to time with Field commander posts to narrate battles, campaigns or executive acts. Perhaps the extension of the posts should be limited so nobody takes over it.

    Let me know what you think. If enough people like that I will post the first one, and then anybody can contribute at their leisure.
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  11. #111
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    Code:
    Election 5
    1. Modena, Tuscany, Siena, Schwyz, Byzantine Empire
    2. Papal States, Naples, the Habsburgs minors
    3. Aragon, Ottoman Empire, Egypt
    4. Genoa, Milan
    Since there's no brother thread for now :

    Dear fellow Senators,
    Honorable Doge,
    Members of the Serenissima Signioria,

    Hail.

    We should finally stand up as the leaders of the Italian Free Cities. Let them know they can rely on us to times of need, to face the threat of the aristocratists Visconti of Milan.

    We also have to stand up against all foreigners that would want to get a hold on our most culturate lands, be them Iberians, Hungarians or Heathens. Greek and italian lands are to be ruled by us if not by locals. Italian lands by us, as defenders of the idea of the Republic, whose modernity shines since over nineteen hundred years ; greek lands, because we're the last reliable part of the Eastern Roman Empire, which the Byzantines left in decay.

    Our path is the mercantile one, we have to be the prime merchants and traders of the seas. If wars are needed, so be it, because trade, our trade, is the key to our survival.

    Genoa delenda est.

    I thank thy for your attention.

  12. #112
    Porphyrogenitus Norrefeldt's Avatar

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    Dear fellow Senators,
    Honorable Doge,
    Minister Fodoron,

    we should indeed stand up for Italian brother threatened by the Visconti. However, the wisdom of our forefathers took us to this dominant position in the eastern Mediterranean. We should keep and strenthen that position, not get too involved in the quarrels of the Italian cities, except for taking control over Mantua. Instead we should look at the weakened Genoese and their hold on Black Sea trade. I suggest we establish a network of friendly ports in the east, where our navy can resupply. Perhaps one day we can take control over Kerch, by a decisive landing and beating any fleet sent from Genoa? We are used to ruling over Greeks, they accept us. If it seems Constantinople can resist the Ottomans we should consider helping them in keeping the Bosporos closed to the Turks.

    Even if our part of the trade is great now, there are numerous competitor and I think we should become more mercantilistic to reduce the cost of keeping current markets. It is my belief that this will still be a heavy strain on our purse.

    Thank you.


    Code:
    Election 3
    C+ M+ A-
    Code:
    Election 4
    1. Dalmatia
    2. White peace
    Code:
    Election 5
    1. Byzantine Empire, Modena, Tuscany, Siena,
    2. The Knights, Theodoros, Athens, Cyprus, Trebizond
    4. Ottoman Empire, Mamlukes
    5. Genoa, Milan, Tunis
    Last edited by Norrefeldt; 15-11-2004 at 16:25.
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  13. #113
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    Dear Fellow Council members

    Venice is currently threatened by several warmongering empires, to me it seems like there are two possibilities. We can try to be defensive, and establish friendly relations with the major ones, hopefully we will get have a better economony than them, giving us the upper hand someday.

    Or we could try to be offensive, that's the option i like. If we could manage to get a few of the rich italian provinces and perhaps an slavonic province or two we would really increase our income and military capacity. To make sure that we do not upset the rest of the world too much i suggest that we don't annex countries.





    Election 3: I+ C+ Q+

    Election 4:
    1 - Dalmatia
    2 - White peace

    Election 5:
    1. ?
    2. Hungary
    3. Hungary (backstappin is always good), Ottoman Empire, Aragon, Mamelukes
    4. Italian minors with more than 1 province.
    Last edited by henrikhka; 15-11-2004 at 17:39.
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  14. #114
    Dux Slaviensis robin74's Avatar

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    Election 3:
    C+ C+ C+
    Election 4:
    1. Dalmatia
    2. Money and no loss of territory
    Shouldn't we also be voting on
    a) army and navy maintenance;
    b) religious tolerance settings;
    c) budget settings (how much to mint and what to invest in)?
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  15. #115
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    Dear members of the senate,
    Great doge,
    Fellow men of Venice

    I indeed think that we should defend the lands of Italy, and the values of the republic. This means we will have to go against Milan, and we have to do it as quickly as possible. Not only have they taken ownership of Mantua, which is a rightful Venitian claim, but they are also a threat to our ideas of a republic. If we do not strike now, they will grow too strong for us to defeat. I think that we should immidiately after our war with Hungary go against the Milanese, perhaps with a bit of time to allow our economy to grow stronger, and take Mantua back.
    As for Greece, I think we should take a careful policy, but not too careful. The Ottomans have already taken Bulgaria, and they show no tendency to stop their conquering.
    As for Byzantium, I think we should aid them. Yes, they have screwed up and yes they have lost most of their empire, but after all Byzantium is a christian city. Should the heathens take it, we must be ready to take our revenge on them and reconquer the city.
    However, as for now I recommend us taking Dalmatia from the Hungarians. After that, we should decide what to do with Italy.
    Thank you for your time. May God's glory be with our city!


    Code:
    M+ C+ C+
    Code:
    1 Dalmatia
    2 Dalmatia
    Code:
    1. Tuscany, Siena, Modena, Byzantium
    2. Austria, Styria, Tyrol, Switzerland, Aragon
    3. Hungary, Albania
    4. Ottoman Empire, Genoa
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  16. #116
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    Count Moro's coat of arms


    Dear Doge Tommaso Mocenigo,
    Fellow Senators of the Serenissima Repubblica,
    despite a domestic policy traditionally respectful of local authonomies, I would propose to increase centralisation in first instance, in order to get more Treasury for the current and future defence of the city:

    Code:
    Election 3
    C+ C+ I+
    In regards to our current war against the Hungarian King (and Holy Roman Emperor) I would propose to fight as much as we can to get our rightful claims on Dalmatia:
    Code:
    Election 4
    Dalmatia, No losses of territory (so OK for money tributes)
    I would advise our Commander, if applicable, to blockade Hungarian ports and try to get as many naval victories as he can defeating their navies.
    With reference to the last Election, I think we should try to be strict friends to Italian states (apart Milan, which holds Mantua (CB), and Genoa) and even more, one among Hapsburg Empire or France
    Code:
    Election 5
    1.Pope, Austria
    2.France, Switzerland
    3.Hungary, OE
    4.Milan, Genoa
    Please note the picture is the ORIGINAL Moro's family heraldic coat of arms
    Last edited by Hastu Neon; 15-11-2004 at 19:04.
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  17. #117
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    The Venetian AAR to enjoy the historical background, post pics, and inpersonate the members of the senate has been started. You can start posting there and even move there some of the letters and pics already posted here if you find they belong there.

    Go to this thread
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  18. #118
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    Dear pairs Senators
    Gracious Doge

    Our precious Republic have a lot of hard situations ahead of us, so that is why this Council along with the Executive Command of the Doge must focus completely on the wellfare of our Citizens. According to this, I should advice or somewhat beg, that this terrible War against the Hungarians must finish now; we should be aware of our enemies might take advantage of this; of course, our diplomats must deal it carefully and with the most profitable part for our Republic. I suggest also we must maintain a fleet in the Egean Sea, to prevent possibles threats to our trading; along with a serious plan of improving and increasing our Powerful Navy.

    About fellow Senators' suggestions of engaging us in the turnmoil that is the rest of Italy, I believe we must be careful. First, let's improve our relations with our neighbours Tuscany and Modena, and gradually make them believe that the Visconti are the Devil. But for now, we must keep insight our prosperous market in the Eastern Mediterranean, now that the heathens muslims have become a real threat.

    On our internal situation, I'm aware of Senators willing to centralize the power of our Republic, I must notice that this might tend to concentrate it on few or two hands, and as a representant of so many people I will be against of that forever.


    Code:
    Election 3
    M+ A+ L-
    
    Election 4
    1. Dalmatia
    2. White Peace
    
    Election 5
    1. Tuscany, Modena, The Knights, Cyprus, Athens
    2. Siena, Byzantine Empire, Schwyz
    3. Ottoman Empire, Albania, Morea
    4. Milan, Genoa
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  19. #119
    Amnistiado por viejuno

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    Quote Originally Posted by robin74
    Shouldn't we also be voting on
    a) army and navy maintenance;
    b) religious tolerance settings;
    c) budget settings (how much to mint and what to invest in)?
    a) Army and navy maintenance are my responsability, but they will basically be 100% while at war and in danger of facing the enemy within a month, and 50% otherwise. For example, since Hungary has no navy and no port, naval maintenance will be 50% during the war.

    b) This is also pretty basic stuff (I think). Maximum to religions present in the republic. For example I would now set them at 75% each catholic and orthodox.

    c) You will definitely vote on this. This elections are already half prepared.

    Feel free to disagree. If I have a request backed by 1/4 of the senators (right now the senate has 20 members), I will set up an election.

    I have somehow gotten the message that too many elections distract and annoy the senate. Let me know your preferences at any time.
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  20. #120
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    Election 6. 1419-1444 Research investments and minting policies

    This election deals with the budget window and all its options. Remember that it refers to the first 25 years, when income is small:

    1. Peacetime research

    Stablish the ideal position of the sliders according to you during peace time in percentages, starting at 1419. For example:
    1. L 20%, N 10%, S 0%, T 0%, P 70%, M 0%
    The results will be averaged to voters not to % (i.e. three votes for a 0% versus one for 100% for Land will result in 0%, not 25%).


    2. Peacetime minting
    Answer to all of them. Say No when you disagree and ? when you are unsure.

    A. Do not mint in this period
    B. Mint enough to not incur in a monthly deficit
    C. Mint at X% until TCs in every province (fill the X also if you choose C)
    D. Mint at X% for an FAA (fill the X also if you choose D)
    E. Mint enough for X attempts at conversion (fill the X also if you choose E)
    F. Whatever you do, do not mint above X% inflation (fill the X also if you choose F)

    So, for example, an answer would be:
    2. A No, B No, C 100%, D ?, E 1, F 7%
    This would be interpreted as 100% minting once at peace to build all TCs. Then, for as long as inflation is below 7% mint at 100% to attempt one conversion. When finished or at 7% inflation, do not mint at all. Option D will not count as against an FAA in this period. Location of manus will be discussed separately.


    3. Wartime minting
    I do try not to mint for troops, but sometimes more troops are needed. You can choose one or more.

    A. Do not mint at war, learn to fight on a budget.
    B. Mint as much as needed for troops
    C. Mint as long as inflation is below X% (fill the X also if you choose C)
    D. Mint enough to avoid having to take a loan
    E. Other, specify

    4. War taxes

    A. Never
    B. Once per war
    C. Only if in economical trouble or to avoid having to take a loan
    D. Other, specify

    RESULTS:

    1. Peacetime research: percentages were averaged only for sliders with equal or more of 50% votes for >0% and with equal or more of 50% votes for <100%. In other words, unless there is majority for 0% or 100%, the values are averaged. Therefore all 4 sliders were averaged and rounded to the closer 5%.
    Land 10%
    Naval 10%
    Trade 20%
    Production 60%

    2. Peace time minting.
    Very clearly, no minting after the TCs have been placed.
    The limit is not set, since there are 3 votes for 5-6%, 1 vote for 10%, 3 votes for no limit, and 1 vote for 1.5%/decade. We will see how it goes and come back in 1444. Nobody likes inflation anyway.

    3. I'll come back to this one.

    4. War taxes.
    A resounding no.
    Last edited by Fodoron; 22-11-2004 at 16:43.
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