AGC-EEP Portugal and West Africa

[idontlikeforms]

I'll start reading that long thread, so it will take some days for me to reply... You were right about your submission, I made a conclusion to hastily from just one of your provided links. Your submission in post #45 could still need a link though.

I look forward to your input. I've added to the post you're responding to. Please check it again to make sure you didn't miss these additions.

Historical accuracy in setup + an equal game for AI's and humans vs extra help for the AI and a better historical development, it has also been debated when Jester suggested including Daywalkers AI files. They have events that help out Portugal, and other important states, a big deal as well. IIRC that discussion ended with the conclusion that we should allow for the player to chose how he wants to play the game, since there are people that hates AI "cheating" and those that don't mind it as long as they get a more historical outcome. I think that is a wise choice since it's pointless in trying to merge the two views and convince people of how they should play the game. So there is room for your events when that is implemented. Jester said he would do it, don't know if it will be in the next version. Cape Verde and Azores were populated from start after a discussion in EEP since it was concidered a small "cheat" and the AI would not colonize them otherwise. Cannot remember why, but Daywalker tested it throughly, might be they are not ToT provinces?
I'll get back after my "homework".

I've DLed Daywalker's AI helps and he gives ahistorical AI cheats to a much greater degee than I'm suggesting here. However it seemed to me to be beautifully organized efficiencywise.

[Norrefeldt]

Another change I recommend: Give Portugal level 2 infra tech level at the beginning of the game, and take away the 70 value too of course.

This will help a human Portuguese player to a trivial degree but considering if my 2 suggestions on top of this are implemented,this would then be fair.

The primary reason why Portugal should get this change is for the AI of course. This would help the AI alot and I'll explain why.

When Portugal begins it is at war with Morocco. It gets Infra 2 in 2 years or so but will then not make baliffs because the AI makes troop construction a priority because of the war. In fact even if the war ends prior to this it still causes problems because the AI almost always has spent all it's money during the war.

Portugal not making Baliffs at the beiggining of the game cripples the Portuguese AI tremendously and heres why. If Portugal ends its Moroccan war the AI can then spend money on other things but the problem is it has a big army and no baliffs so its annual income is pretty low(no census tax) and it wastes much of the rest of its income on troop support. This makes the Portuguese AI not have any spare money for a long time. I even seen it make its first baliff about 10 years into the game and not have 1,000 pop on the Azores either. It's flat broke all this time and racking up inflation.

I gave the Portguese AI level 2 infra tech at the begging of the game to see what it does. And even though its at war it builds 3 baliffs right away in its mainland provinces. This gives 2 excellent benefits to a Portuguese AI, census tax right away and smaller army, so less support cost till its next war. This gives it a big head start and human Portguese players avoid this financial trap everytime anyways.

Isn't 1 the required level for bailiffs? It's been discussed to give some nations bailiffs from start if they were that advanced by then, perhaps Portugal is one of them.

And, I forgot. I think your triggers should look like:

trigger = { 
		owned = { province = 795 data = -1 } #Leone
		control = { province = 795 data = -1 } 
		discovered = 1365 #Ivory Coast
	}

With the province names as comments.

[idontlikeforms]

Isn't 1 the required level for bailiffs? It's been discussed to give some nations bailiffs from start if they were that advanced by then, perhaps Portugal is one of them.

And, I forgot. I think your triggers should look like:

trigger = { 
		owned = { province = 795 data = -1 } #Leone
		control = { province = 795 data = -1 } 
		discovered = 1365 #Ivory Coast
	}

With the province names as comments.

Will do. My apologies you're right i'll edit it right now.

[idontlikeforms]

I didn't misunderstand the reason for these changes, but I think they are ahistorical and unjustified, that's why I didn't like it. The reason is that the whole chunk of that province didn't become Portuguese and Christian over night and also because of a severe lack of consistency. You want to use this as a help for Portugal to colonize this particular province, I understand that much. Why should only Portugal get this help, why not all other states in their respective historical areas? And, then one might ask, if you play any other state and put up a TP in Nouakshott, why shouldn't you get the same treatment? Was there something special about the Portuguese colonisation here that made this happen? If there wasn't anything special going on, and from the description of the event it seems it wasn't, then there should be no special treatment. Portugal has the ToT as hardcoded special treatment, that should be enough.

I understand the benefit of changing culture. I haven't compared the AI's behaviour as you have done, but I have no reason to doubt your word. Still, I think it's wrong to give Portugal special treatment here.

I have some ideas on this. I've tested the portguese AI with level 1 infra tech at the start more and my previous heavy emphasis on the benefit of this is an understatemant. I think I can honestly say that I've not seen a single other adjustment by me or anybody else improve the performance of the Portuguese AI any where near as much as this. It is just awesome! The Portguese AI acutally has the resources to do what it is supposed to. In fact I've even experimented with Portguese AI cheats that give it extra money only at peace times to try to induce it to colonize more and believe it or not the infra level 1 at start adjustment makes an even bigger difference.

Previously I created the Elmina and Arguin events along with their setup to try to induce an extremely reluctuant Portuguese AI to colonize in these spots when it had previously all but flatly refused to do so. But with the infra level 1 at start adjustment it will now much more liberally TP and colonize. This changes the dynamcs involved with getting the AI to do what it is supposed to dramatically.

With the infra level 1 tech at start it may very well be possible to get the AI to colonize Leone and Nouachkott all on it's own.

In addition to this I've thought of another solution to the events. Originally the AI Tping 1 of these 2 provinces on it's own and not upgrading them to a colony by the time the historical fortress building events would trigger was a huge problem, because the event would trigger, reading Portuguese ownership of these provinces when all it had was a TP, and then the pop increases and fort additions wouldn't happen. But it occured to me that if 1 of the trigger conditions was that the province religion had to be catholic then the event won't trigger until it is colonized, becasue TPs only have their native religion(which is not catholic of course). This won't change till it's colonized once, which of course then causes the religion of these provinces to become catholic permanently until altered by a player otherwise.

There are a few drawbacks to switching to this method though.

Nouachkott and Leone will have to be made into easily colonizable and TPable provinces. The success rate for both of these will need to be improved dramatically to induce a Portguese AI to prefer these 2 spots over all others in west Africa for colonization and TPing. This would unfortunately allow a human Portguese player to grab these 2 provinces a little earlier and for a little less. Probably not too bad of a compromise though if the 2 leader changes proposed by me in this thread are implemented. So this should be considered before swithcing my proposal to this method.

Making these 2 spots better for colonization is historical of course. Also Launda and possibly Zaire and Lobito should be improved in this way too but I'm going to get some sources on this soon so I'm waiting for that to make these suggestions. This region in Africa was actually colonized by Portugal but currently a human player will rarely do this as it's too expensive and has too low a successrate for colonization as is and of course an AI Portuguese player will almost never do it.

I'm gonna test my posible suggestion about Leone and Nouachkott changes and I'll post my opinion of the results and if I get some support I'll just switch my post in the submission thread to this instead.

[idontlikeforms]

Fernando Po needs 100 natives.

The reason why is with my setup the west African province TPing penalties are reduced, this makes Fernando Po less desirable to the AI to TP because of no natives putting it below the others percentage wise.

With natives the AI should TP it. It will then read the high percentage chance for successful colonization and proceed to colonize. With my west Africa set up as is. This usually won't happen and we want it to as the Island chain represented by Fernando Po was colonized by Portugal historically.

Sao Tome and Principe had no native populations but Fernando Po did. So this shouldn't be too ahistorical, although I am unaware that they were ever assimilated into Portuguese culture but for gameplay reasons I think it should be done.

If someone objects to this please comment on it soon as my west africa proposals are hurting the Portguese AI in this 1 area and I'd like the 100 natives to be implemented at the same time as my other suggestions so this won't happen.

[idontlikeforms]

I've experimented with what I suggested in the post #44 and it seems to work really well. The events will not trigger until colonization and the AI although possibly late will still colonize the desired provinces.

Although Leone is made quite a bit easier to colonize by a human player. It will need it's "Negation value for trade posts," switched to 1 and it's difficulty for colonization switched to 2 also. Which does seem excessively low but it will be necessary to make this work. As near as I can tell it's cost and percantage chance of success are siginificantly modified by the hostile environment. Which still keeps it from being the easiest to colonize for the AI among the other provinces on the west coast of africa.

[Norrefeldt]

With the infra level 1 tech at start it may very well be possible to get the AI to colonize Leone and Nouachkott all on it's own.

Good.

Nouachkott and Leone will have to be made into easily colonizable and TPable provinces. The success rate for both of these will need to be improved dramatically to induce a Portguese AI to prefer these 2 spots over all others in west Africa for colonization and TPing. This would unfortunately allow a human Portguese player to grab these 2 provinces a little earlier and for a little less. Probably not too bad of a compromise though if the 2 leader changes proposed by me in this thread are implemented. So this should be considered before swithcing my proposal to this method.

Making these 2 spots better for colonization is historical of course. Also Launda and possibly Zaire and Lobito should be improved in this way too but I'm going to get some sources on this soon so I'm waiting for that to make these suggestions. This region in Africa was actually colonized by Portugal but currently a human player will rarely do this as it's too expensive and has too low a successrate for colonization as is and of course an AI Portuguese player will almost never do it.

Basically I agree with you that Africa should be profitable and cheap for TPing early in the game, and a better choice than colonizing Brazil.

I'm still not conviced that all of these areas had colonies and not only trade posts. I'm still only in post 60 of the other thread, so I might find some information there of what a trade post is, in your opinion, and if Portugal had any trade posts at all. Another thing I thought of, was the commodity of Leone gold throughout the game period? Or did not it become slaves and stayed as mainly a slave trading fort for the rest of the game period? To me it seems the Portuguese went there for gold, but by 1500 slaves was the main commodity by far. On Internet I found:

By the 1480's, the Portuguese interest in gold had changed to the purchase and sale of slaves. It is interesting to note that it was a Papal Bull, which authorized the opening of the slave market in Lisbon. The English Parliament also passed an Act legalizing the purchase of slaves in 1545. Even in 1452, the Pope declared that the possession of slaves was the right of all Christians.

We could simulate the initial gold rush (if it wasn't a longer thing, then I'm sure you will tell me) by changing the text for the el Mina event to include a few lines of the gold found there, and also give some cash straight away to Portugal. Since some part of the money was making the merchants richer, the there could be a small bonus to trade.

Luanda seem to have been what I would call a colony in game terms:

Luanda became a Portuguese colony, and Portugal sought white settlers for its new colony. Portuguese from the Kongo, along with exiles and convicts from Portugal, and criminals from Brazil, gathered south of Luanda, at Benguela. Frustrated in their search for silver and gold, and unable to compete in slave trading, some of these settlers turned to fishing and farming. Some others returned to the Kongo where they took concubines and joined slave trading communities along Kongo trade routes.

http://www.fsmitha.com/h3/h28-af.html

[idontlikeforms]

I'm still not conviced that all of these areas had colonies and not only trade posts. I'm still only in post 60 of the other thread, so I might find some information there of what a trade post is, in your opinion, and if Portugal had any trade posts at all. Another thing I thought of, was the commodity of Leone gold throughout the game period? Or did not it become slaves and stayed as mainly a slave trading fort for the rest of the game period? To me it seems the Portuguese went there for gold, but by 1500 slaves was the main commodity by far. On Internet I found:
We could simulate the initial gold rush (if it wasn't a longer thing, then I'm sure you will tell me) by changing the text for the el Mina event to include a few lines of the gold found there, and also give some cash straight away to Portugal. Since some part of the money was making the merchants richer, the there could be a small bonus to trade.

Gold was the primary commodity being traded in Elmina. In a previous post I said that Elmina means the gold but this was an accident as I was thinking "Gold Coast" at the time. It of course really means "The Mine." This region which is modern day Ghana was a rich gold region throughout it's entire known history and still is today. I've got an African history book and in 2 maps representing West Africa prior to the Portguese arrival and it is calls thsi region "The Akan Gold fields."

The sources I have for West Africa cover European involvement in West Africa from 1450-1550 and the Portguese part of the book consists mostly of letters from the King to the governors of various Portuguese forts along the west Afrcian Coast and vice-versa. And they often give tangible numbers on the amount of each commodity being acquired. And I can assure you that gold was the most profitable one for this entire period. The primary purpose of the establishment at Elmina was to solidify the gold trade. The colony was named by the Portuguese at it's founding "Sao Jorge da Mina(mine)." This clearly shows that the Portuguese were thinking gold right from the start. And the source on it's founding, which is pretty descriptive pretty much says this outright too. This one colony of Portgual's made them rich as gold was scarce in Europe in the 15th century.

Later the Dutch attacked it several times before successfully taking it. This is of course was the reason for my suggesting to add it to the event where they claim provinces like Malacca as cores.

I recently read part of a book called "The Portuguese Seaborne Empire," by C.R. Boxer which I have mentioned in previous posts and it talked about how the Portguese were still trading for gold there before the gold rush of Minas Gerais in 1695 and this was when Elmina was under Dutch control.

The europeans were trading trinkets and old shirts for gold at this place. I have a hard time believing they would all of sudden stop trading when the trade was as lopsided as this.

Elmina was used as a place to trade for slaves but as near as I can tell gold was the biggest commodity there for most if not all of the game.

I previously had the same assumption that gold couldn't have been a bigger deal there than slaves, but I found out to the contrary. After all the EU2 makers didn't put gold there. But as you may well know the EU2 makers have got their commodities wrong all too often. For example they made Minas Gerais copper. I looked this up and could find nothing saying that copper was being extracted there at all except that 1 site said that numerous kinds of minerals are mined there and this was refering to the present. Minas Gerais was acording the book I'm reading as well as many sites online the richest source of gold in the world at it's peak and even today gold is still mined there. The gold from Minas Gerais revived tremendously the Portuguese economy. Boxer even quotes numerous sources that show that Portuguese gold coins, printed from the gold of Minas Gerais, were by far the most abundant gold coins used all over europe at the time. You would think that the EU2 makers couldn't miss such an obvious thing as making Minas Gerais gold with this kind of history behind it but apparently they did just that.

Making Leone slaves and not gold doesn't diverge too far from the truth but the fact is that it was an enormous contributor to Portguese wealth from the mid 15th century to the 16th century and slaves can't represent this. The EU2 makers didn't even make Madeira in the game and this was a big contributor to Portguese income too. Portugal is ahistorically poor right now. I see no reason to keep it this way.

[idontlikeforms]

The slave trade wasn't more important than gold to the Portguese until probably mid16th century and possibly even later. This source has it wrong. Gold was needed to make currency and therefore it was top priority as the west coast of Africa was the primary source of this for Portugal. Keep in mind that until recently in world history gold was used to keep currencies high in comparison to the currency of other countries, so gold had an ever greater significance in a given country's economy than it does today.

[Norrefeldt]

I have now cought up on all the "Portugal .." threads, really a debate! Some of my comments:

At present I'm experimenting with lowering the "Negation value for Trade Posts" to 3 on all coastal African provinces down to Lobito, as well as a few other select provinces.

Making TPing West Africa worth it sounds good, and lowering NVFTP sounds like worth trying. I think TPing can be of great value to Portugal, but it might not be the best idea right now and that can be improved.

Yes after play testing my setup further, I think the "Negation Value for Trade Posts," in Brazilian coastal provinces need to be increased, but not to an extreme. At present my change to the NVTP for the west African coastal provinces has made TPing there for Portugal better. But Brazil is still slighly better cost/profit wise, and colonizing south Africa is still slighlty better cost/profit wise too. At present I have the provinces on the west African coast set to 3, and the natives are burning down the TPs when attempts fail a little too much still. I think I need to lower them to 2 and raise all the Brazilian coastal ones to 3 if they are not already higher. Perhaps that will do the trick. I'll let you know after I try it.

I like it. What was the result?

I wont comment much on the different play styles of Portugal, since I haven't played it for quite some time. The strongest Portugals I have seen did run a high inflation policy (a player called Barnius some half a year ago in a very experianced MP group had 50% after a century, starting 1520 admittely.) But if you fall when playing with high inflation in MP, you fall harder. At least this discussion made me feel like trying it again.

I think we need to define TP and colony. Unfortunately the manual is a bit vague.
I interpret a colony to mean. An intentional permanant establishment, intended to grow over time, or did grow over time, equipped with permanent settlers of both sexes or settlers who married native women and whose decendants populate the settlement, containing at least one worker of each of the crafts of necessary tasks, like a carpenter, a blacksmith, etc. , usually having a church of some kind, a house for its governor, and frequently a fort of some sort.

This sounds like a well developed TP to me. A rural population (spread over some part of the territory, just not on the coast), not at all involved i trade should signify a colony. If the game absolutely requirers Elmina to be a colony, it's not to much of a strech.

I interpret a trade post to mean a location where frequent trade was engaged in at a specific point and on an at least a semi-regular basis between a colonial power and its indigineous popualtion, not necessarily a permanent establishment, where the surrounding region is claimed by a colonial power.

I think this is less than a TP, or perhaps a level one TP. IMHO a TP can mean fortifications (almost always needed) but not in an extent to withstand an attack from determined Europeans.

I don't think there is any way to make it decline. None that I can think of anyway. I guess we could stop the game earlier I wasn't really criticising your proposal with that comment, just making a general observation on the failing of the EU model.

We could lower the tax value of all slave provinces, as we do with American mines and have discussed to do with Italy.

[idontlikeforms]

I have now cought up on all the "Portugal .." threads, really a debate! Some of my comments:
Making TPing West Africa worth it sounds good, and lowering NVFTP sounds like worth trying. I think TPing can be of great value to Portugal, but it might not be the best idea right now and that can be improved.

I'm not sure I understand what you're implying here

I like it. What was the result?

The result is that TPing Africa instead of Brazil can be done slightly quicker because of slighly less failed attempts overall. However without raising the base value of slaves from 5 to 8 it really is a lost cause as it will not then be more valuable than TPing Brazil investment/profit wise. So if only part of my west African change proposals are implemnted in this part. It will really just be a waste of time. The Brazilian provinces aren't too heavily penalized and shouldn't be as this would negatively effect gameplay later. So making them even worse without raising the ahistorically low value of slaves won't do the trick either. I've playtested all of this extensively.


[QUOTE=Norrefeldt]
This sounds like a well developed TP to me. A rural population (spread over some part of the territory, just not on the coast), not at all involved i trade should signify a colony. If the game absolutely requirers Elmina to be a colony, it's not to much of a strech.[QUOTE=Norrefeldt]

I've personally read many sources of Portuguese and Spanish colonization, as well as numerous sources about white involvement with native americans. And I think I can say that by and large my definiton of a colony was exactly what their defintion of a colony was.

Colonies still participated in trade if natives lived near by. Most initial colonies involved a fort of some kind, unless of course there were no natives nearby. The game of course doesn't work like this and often we as players don't even make forts because of their high cost.

Elmina was a colony it was even given city status by Joao II 4 years after it's founding.

I think this is less than a TP, or perhaps a level one TP. IMHO a TP can mean fortifications (almost always needed) but not in an extent to withstand an attack from determined Europeans.

Initially I was inclined to agree with you here but after thinking the matter through more thoroughly I realized how problematic this interpretation was.

The fact of the matter is that 10-60 pop sized european settlements that functioned as centers of trade with indigineous peoples without a fortificiation is almostly completely a fictious scenario. If a european power wanted to build a trade post(their definition of the word not the game's) they would build a fort, one that is strong enough to resist whatever the natives there could muster, and they would station troops there. Other europeans could not then come along and with a puny force and burn it to the ground. Instead they would bring a decent size force and attack it, capture it, and then occupy it themselves. After all the trade post was there because it was profitable to build it there so it would be foolish for them to not just take over the trade post themselves.

This is further complicated when it is realized that if a trade post must align with this notion of a trade post then alot of trade that took place between europeans and indigineous peoples historically is then represented by nothing in the game. And this of course was quite alot of trade that the governments of these countries were in fact getting a cut of.

The fact is that europeans claimed land or the trading rights to land without making a permanent settlements often. Instead they would sail to a given spot get out of their boats and trade with native peoples nearby who have remembered what happened the last time the europeans came by. And they of course would stay in their boats over night. If other europeans came by and started trading in these regions it would be considered an act of aggression and give just cause for a declaration of war. I interpret a TP to qualify for this as well assome other odds and ends scenarios. If TPs and colonies do not have the defintions that I've given them than many TPs and colonies that did exist cannot be represented by anything in the game. So for event purposes many settlements can't be incorporated in any way. And what we do in a game has much less resemblance to real history. Personally I think if anyone has read the magnitude of information on the subject here in question they would see how my interpretation is logical and how other interpretations incompatible to mine don't make a whole lot of sense in light of history.

Besides the manual is incredibly vague on this subject. So it really is up to us to interpret what exaclty a TP or colony is. It would be nice if the makers of EU2 had thought it through more thoroughly and gave logical detailed descriptions on this matter. But unfortunately they didn't.

We could lower the tax value of all slave provinces, as we do with American mines and have discussed to do with Italy.

This is unnecessary almost all of the slave producing provinces have very low tax income already. besides the tax value is supposed to represent tax on land, usually from agricultural use.

At any rate really I'm just trying to make sense out fo the game in light of history and then incorporate as much historical detail as possible so long as it doesn't mess up gameplay.

What do you think Norrefeldt of making Portugal start with infra level 1, given it my early leader changes, removing my proposals for setup on Nouachkott and Leone, giving Fernando Po 100 natives, and improving the colonizable stats on Leone? Should I go ahead and adjust my submission in this way? Any thoughts on this from any other high council members?

[Norrefeldt]

Switch cape verde(818) from fish to salt(12). Discussed here in posts 67,71,72, and 85.

Fine, but what does the 12 mean?

The fact of the matter is that 10-60 pop sized european settlements that functioned as centers of trade with indigineous peoples without a fortificiation is almostly completely a fictious scenario. If a european power wanted to build a trade post(their definition of the word not the game's) they would build a fort, one that is strong enough to resist whatever the natives there could muster, and they would station troops there. Other europeans could not then come along and with a puny force and burn it to the ground. Instead they would bring a decent size force and attack it, capture it, and then occupy it themselves. After all the trade post was there because it was profitable to build it there so it would be foolish for them to not just take over the trade post themselves.

I agree.

This is further complicated when it is realized that if a trade post must align with this notion of a trade post then alot of trade that took place between europeans and indigineous peoples historically is then represented by nothing in the game. And this of course was quite alot of trade that the governments of these countries were in fact getting a cut of.

The fact is that europeans claimed land or the trading rights to land without making a permanent settlements often. Instead they would sail to a given spot get out of their boats and trade with native peoples nearby who have remembered what happened the last time the europeans came by. And they of course would stay in their boats over night. If other europeans came by and started trading in these regions it would be considered an act of aggression and give just cause for a declaration of war. I interpret a TP to qualify for this as well assome other odds and ends scenarios. If TPs and colonies do not have the defintions that I've given them than many TPs and colonies that did exist cannot be represented by anything in the game. So for event purposes many settlements can't be incorporated in any way. And what we do in a game has much less resemblance to real history. Personally I think if anyone has read the magnitude of information on the subject here in question they would see how my interpretation is logical and how other interpretations incompatible to mine don't make a whole lot of sense in light of history.

Fortified trading stations was surely a common way of establishing precence. Unfortunately TPs can be burnt pretty easily, and colonies does not have forts either. So the historical fortresses that was build by many nations on the coast of Africa cannot really be implemented in the game. I don't think it matters much though. When comparing a single fort on the African coast with all the fortifications in a European province with lvl 1 fort the TP is much less fortified than the province, and approximating it with an unfortified colony or TP is not much of a strech.

This is unnecessary almost all of the slave producing provinces have very low tax income already. besides the tax value is supposed to represent tax on land, usually from agricultural use.

By 1800 the slave trade wasnt as profitable as two centuries earlier. If we are increasing the value of slaves to fix it early on, we might get too valuable slave provinces later on.

What do you think Norrefeldt of making Portugal start with infra level 1, given it my early leader changes, removing my proposals for setup on Nouachkott and Leone, giving Fernando Po 100 natives, and improving the colonizable stats on Leone? Should I go ahead and adjust my submission in this way? Any thoughts on this from any other high council members?

Either start at infra 1, that is some 130d if I remember correctly, or giving it three tax collectors? I'm fine with it as you said.

[idontlikeforms]

Fine, but what does the 12 mean?

12 = Salt

Fortified trading stations was surely a common way of establishing precence. Unfortunately TPs can be burnt pretty easily, and colonies does not have forts either. So the historical fortresses that was build by many nations on the coast of Africa cannot really be implemented in the game. I don't think it matters much though. When comparing a single fort on the African coast with all the fortifications in a European province with lvl 1 fort the TP is much less fortified than the province, and approximating it with an unfortified colony or TP is not much of a strech.

Then our views aren't too dissimilar here

By 1800 the slave trade wasnt as profitable as two centuries earlier. If we are increasing the value of slaves to fix it early on, we might get too valuable slave provinces later on.

True but at least that is only a small part of the game. By the way did you pay attention to the math Iused on this matter. Isaac checked it out later too andsaid I had it correct. Currently slaves are really low value late game. One of the lowest.

Either start at infra 1, that is some 130d if I remember correctly, or giving it three tax collectors? I'm fine with it as you said.

It's a relief to hear we agree, at least for the most part. But you didn't answer all of my questions regarding altering my submission post. Should I go ahead and do it the way I described or are the submissions not gonna get voted on and added for awhile anyways?

[Norrefeldt]

Add this leader to the Portugal leaders file
historicalleader = {
id = { type = 6 id = 16274 }
category = conquistador
name = "Diego da Azambuja"
startdate = {
year=1482 month = january
}
deathdate = {
year=1485
}

rank = 4
movement = 4
fire = 3
shock = 3
siege = 0
dormant = no
location = 795
} #he starts in Leone

Change Casamance(797) to spice(14)

Change Leone(795) to gold(2) size 40 mine

Give 20 "Native Combat Strength" to the Canaries(817)

Change the "Native Combat Strength" of the Gambia(798), Casamance(797), and Zambezia(771) to 15

Change the "Native Combat Strength" of Nouadibuh(803) and Tasseeret(804) to 10

Lower the "Native Tolerance Value" of Leone(795) and Nouachkott(802) to 1

Lower the "Negation Value of Trading Posts' of these provinces to 2
Nouachkott(802), Senegal(800), Dakar(799), Gambia(798), Casamance(797), Guinea(796), Douala(790), Kribi(789), Muni(788), Mayumba(787), Cabinda(786), Zaire(785), Launda(784), Lobito(783), Inhambane(772), Zambezia(771), Nampiua(770), Niassa(769), and Mtawa(768).

Increase the "Negation Value of Trading Posts' of these provinces to 4
Marajo(198), Tirancambo(200), Parnaiba(202), Recife(203), Pernambuc(205), Itaimas(210), and Niteroi(211).

Increase the base commodity value of slaves from 5 to 8

Change Oporto(434) to terrain "mountains"(2)

Change the population of Oporto(434) to 10,000

Change the population of Algarve(442) to 5,000

Change the "difficulty for colonization" of Fernando Po(816) from 5 to 3.
Change the "Negation value for trade posts" of Fernando Po from 0 to 2.

I'm happy with all of this.

[idontlikeforms]

I'm happy with all of this.

My events aren't here? Do they give Portgual an unreasonable advantage? Don't they have historical value? I worked hard on them you know, lots of research and playtesting. It's not like I am exegerating their significance as historical events. They were a big deal to the Portuguese. Besides Portgual is ahistorically weak right now. Anyonewho has played them recently on the normal level knows this. At least they help a little. It's not like I'm suggesting them for a country that is too powerful already.

Shouldn't Leone be added to the cores the Dutch will later claim. is there a more important city on the Guinea coast for the time period covered in the game?

Did you read my changes I proposed for Nouachkott and Leone after I put in the post to the submission thread. You still haven't told me what you think of that, nor the 100 natives in Fernando Po, nor making Leone more colonizable, nor my changes for Diogo Silves and Fernando Castro, nor my adjustments to the Nouachkott and Leone events. All of these things and the reason for their necessity I'd be happy to elaborate on. Isaac and Yakman likes the ones they've responded to so far. Are we alone? I woulda stopped working on these changes I just mentioned long ago if it were not for the green lights I was recieving.

[Norrefeldt]

I think you have done a great job and most of what is done I'm fine with. Some things could still be tweaked further, however I'm not the only one to say yes or no to your proposals, but I'll give you my view of it.

You still haven't told me what you think of that, nor the 100 natives in Fernando Po, nor making Leone more colonizable, nor my changes for Diogo Silves and Fernando Castro

All good ideas. I didn't remember since it was not in the submissions post, sorry.

#Settlement of El Mina#
event = {
id = 260048
trigger = { owned = { province = 795 data = -1 } control = { province = 795 data = -1 }
discovered = 1365 }
random = no
country = POR
name = "Settlement of El Mina"
desc = "In 1481 King Joao II of Portugal held a meeting with his council to decide whether or not to build a fort on the Mina coast to secure the trade of gold in this region."
style = 2
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1482 }
offset = 60
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1660 }
action_a ={
name = "build the fort"
command = { type = population which = 795 value = 300 }
command = { type = treasury value = -100 }
command = { type = fortress which = 795 value = 1 }
command = { type = trade value = 150 }
command = { type = provincereligion which = 795 value = catholic }
command = { type = provinceculture which = 795 value = -1 }
command = { type = mine which = 795 value = 10 }
}
action_b = {
name = "too risky"
command = { type = merchants value = 6 }
command = { type = infra value = 100 }
command = { type = land value = 100 }
}
} #795 = leone #1365 = the sea next to Leone

I think the event is too good (a option is), the mine valuable enough as it is (Isaac Brock said the same IIRC). I'm not convinced it was actually a colony, but rather a fortified TP. I can let that slip since it's important for POR and fortified TPs doesnt exist in the game.

#Settlement of Arguin#
event = {
id = 260049
trigger = { owned = { province = 802 data = -1 } control = { province = 802 data = -1 }
discovered = 1056 }
random = no
country = POR
name = "Settlement of Arguin"
desc = "In 1443 the Portuguese discovered a small island off the African coast and shortly thereafter built a fort there to divert some of the trans-Saharan trade into Portuguese hands."
style = 2
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1443 }
offset = 90
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1660 }
action_a ={
name = "build the fort"
command = { type = population which = 802 value = 200 }
command = { type = treasury value = -50 }
command = { type = fortress which = 802 value = 1 }
command = { type = trade value = 100 }
command = { type = provincereligion which = 802 value = catholic }
command = { type = provinceculture which = 802 value = -1 }
}
action_b = {
name = "the Moors there might not trade with us"
command = { type = merchants value = 4 }
command = { type = infra value = 50 }
command = { type = land value = 50 }
}
} #802 = Nouachkott #1056 = the sea next to Nouachkott

I dont think it was more than a TP, and agree with the vanilla campaign (its a TP lvl 3 both 1492 and 1617). This is the thing I feel the strongest about. It wasn't a very big thing this colony and comparable to many other colonies/TP's in the game that doesn't have events at all. Therefore the effects shouldn't be too favorable IMHO.

#Duchess Isabel of Burgundy's feudal priviledge of the Azores#
event = {
id = 260050
random = no
country = POR
trigger = { owned = { province = 823 data = -1 } }
style = 1
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1471 }
offset = 90
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1490 }
name = "Duchess Isabel of Burgundy's feudal priviledge of the Azores"
desc = "In 1466 Afonso V of Portugal granted to the Duchess Isabel of Burgundy, his aunt, feudal privilege in the Azores. Through her death in 1471, and thereafter, many Flemish settlers came to the islands."
action_a = {
name = "great more settlers!"
command = { type = provincetax which = 823 value = 1 }
command = { type = population which = 823 value = 1200 }
command = { type = provincemanpower which = 823 value = 1 }
}
}

I share Isaac Brocks concerns here, that a player will not colonize it at all since he'll get a free ride if he just waits. However it's not a too big thing. Delaying it a few years might be good.

#Settlement of Sao Thome#
event = {
id = 260051
random = no
country = POR
trigger = { owned = { province = 816 data = -1 } control = { province = 816 data = -1 }
provincereligion = { province = 816 data = catholic } }
style = 1
date = { day = 1 month = june year = 1493 }
offset = 90
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1660 }
name = "Settlement of Sao Thome"
desc = "In 1493 Afonso V appointed Alvaro de Caminha captain of the island of Sao Thome. He brought with him some children of New Christians, who were taken away from their parents to make them become better christians. Convicts were sent to the island as well. In addition to these arrivals settlers of Sao Thome traded with Africans on the coast of Guinea to obtain slaves to work their new plantations. Sao Thome then became the main exporter of sugar to Europe until Brazil was settled."
action_a = {
name = "We will become rich!"
command = { type = provincetax which = 816 value = 1 }
command = { type = population which = 816 value = 250 }
}
} #816 = fernando Po

Same thing here as Arguin event. If we do this event, we should do event for all colonies and all states. We should begin with to make this province triggered since any effects for POR should be the same for any other colonizer. The event could otherwise go into that package of Daywalkers optional special AI help events that has been discussed.

Add this line to actions b of 260005 and 260003
command = { type = sleepevent which = 260048 } #El Mina - fortification African Coast

OK.

Remove Leone from knownprovinces of Ashtanti(ASH)
Remove 795 from all 1419 west African nations knownprovinces.

I don't think the case was strong enough to have theses provinces protected in a special way. The chances anything will happen to the Portuguese colony aren't to big anyway. Removing the province from Ashanti is fine with me.

If proposals for Leone(795) are accepted add this
command = { type = addcore which = 795 }
to event 18019 action a in the Portuguese event file.

Silly over-deterministic events if you ask me, havent noticed them before. Should the core be removed in 18019? I don't care what happens with these events really, so anything goes.. (I'm not too fond of granting cores on colonies.)

[idontlikeforms]

I think you have done a great job and most of what is done I'm fine with. Some things could still be tweaked further, however I'm not the only one to say yes or no to your proposals, but I'll give you my view of it.

All good ideas. I didn't remember since it was not in the submissions post, sorry.

I think the event is too good (a option is), the mine valuable enough as it is (Isaac Brock said the same IIRC). I'm not convinced it was actually a colony, but rather a fortified TP. I can let that slip since it's important for POR and fortified TPs doesnt exist in the game.

I dont think it was more than a TP, and agree with the vanilla campaign (its a TP lvl 3 both 1492 and 1617). This is the thing I feel the strongest about. It wasn't a very big thing this colony and comparable to many other colonies/TP's in the game that doesn't have events at all. Therefore the effects shouldn't be too favorable IMHO.

I share Isaac Brocks concerns here, that a player will not colonize it at all since he'll get a free ride if he just waits. However it's not a too big thing. Delaying it a few years might be good.

Same thing here as Arguin event. If we do this event, we should do event for all colonies and all states. We should begin with to make this province triggered since any effects for POR should be the same for any other colonizer. The event could otherwise go into that package of Daywalkers optional special AI help events that has been discussed.
OK.

I don't think the case was strong enough to have theses provinces protected in a special way. The chances anything will happen to the Portuguese colony aren't to big anyway. Removing the province from Ashanti is fine with me.

Silly over-deterministic events if you ask me, havent noticed them before. Should the core be removed in 18019? I don't care what happens with these events really, so anything goes.. (I'm not too fond of granting cores on colonies.)

The reason why I made these 4 events is that I've studied this topic heavily and heavily relyed on the sources in this study. I then thought what were the most important points in Portuguese colonial history during the 15th century and then decided there ought to be events in the game to reflect that. Gameplay or personal desires were not my premise in the creation of these events, with the exception of the Azores event which I'll explain later. Anotherwards I tried to make the game bend to history not history to the game.

It has occured to me that someone else not reading what I have read on this subject might very well think I'm overstating or exaggerating the siginificance of each of these events. Therefore in as a restrained a manner as possible I'll explain why they are indeed big events both in Portuguese as well as world history and therefore rightly deserve to be made into game events.

Event 260049 represents the Portguese settlement in Arguin. Admittedly this settlement was a fort that traded. It did not have a large Portuguese population. Eventually it did have a mulatoo populations near by. But the main thing about Arguin is that it was the first Portuguese settlement in Africa south of the Canaries. The trans-saharan trade was exclusively in muslim hands until it reach coastal cities in north Africa where italian merchants would then trade for commodities coming from this route and bring them to europe.

The Portuguese figured that if they could build a fort on the African coast they may be able to divert some of this trade into their hands. The king then councilled with his court on this matter and not everyone in Portugal thought it was a good idea. Anotherwards it was a gamble that payed off huge. A good portion of the trade of the trans-saharan trade route then went into portuguese hands. The Portuguese then realized that it may very well be a good idea to build more settlements like Arguin further south along the Africa coast.

The implications of Arguin on Portuguese as well as world history are immense. Arguin was the first fort on the African coast south of the Canaries and therefore it holds a very special place in the mind of a Portuguese historian. If it was 1 of many forts and had no special significance I would not waste anyones time, myself included, in making it into an event. However this is not the case. Arguin was the death sentence for the muslim controlled trans-saharan trade route. If Arguin had been a failure Portuguese exploration much farther south would likely have never happened or happened at a much later date, Da Gama's voyage to India would probably never have happened, Portuguese rise to a postion of the wealthiest nation in europe well before Da Gama's voyage would almost certainly never of happened, and the atlantic slave trade would undoubtedly never of happened. Millions upon milions of lives in world history were systematically effected by a seemingly insignificant trading fort at the mouth of an insignificant river just south of the Canary Islands. All of Portuguese exploration, settling, and trade of Africa south of the Canaries hinged on the success of the trading fort of Arguin. And as such it holds a place of tremendous significance in world history.

Obviously a TP or colony can't perfectly represent what Arguin was. If a player, human or AI, TPs Arguin they will probably make it into a colony as well, at least at some later point. Therefore I do not exclude colonial status from being a necessary trigger for an event for Arguin. Fort building was a very key element of Portuguese colonial strategy, yes even to a greater degree than other europeans later. This is why I made the Arguin event as it is. I think it would be a shame to leave out this key piece of world history simply because it doesn't fit perfectly like a piece of a jigsaw puzzle into the EU2 engine. Many other events that are considered to be important, aren't on the same level of significance as Arguin and the game engine is worked around for them. Why should the Arguin event be descriminated against? Why should the line be drawn with Arguin?

Event 260048 represents the settlement of Elmina. Elimna was the most important settlement that Portugal had until probably Goa. Elmina resided in a heavy gold producing region. When king Joao II took the throne of Portugal 1 of the first things he decided to do was build a settlement in the region of Leone. He sent Diego da Azambuja with many laborers and soldiers with most of the supplies for building with them. Anotherwards it was such a big deal to Joao that he sent almost the entire fort in a dismantled state by a large fleet right to the spot of Azambuja's choosing so that a strong fort could be assembled with lightning speed. This single settlement made Portugal extremely rich. It was hotly deabated in Portugal whether or not it should be assembled in the first place, just like Arguin. And it was a gamble that payed off big just like Arguin.

When the dutch arrived they correctly recognized the high value of Elmina and attacked it several times before successfully taking it.

I realize that Elmina may not fit perfectly into everyone's perception of a colony in EU2. However it does fit perfectly into a perception of a colony from a world history perspective. King Joao II after all did grant it city status 4 years after it's founding.

Because of it's great significance as the single most valuable colony of Portgual's for so long a time. I think it warrents an event to reflect this. Option A is too good but there is no Elmina event if the Canaries are not ceded back to Spain by the time of the treaty of Alcocovas. Or did you not realize that was part off the setup Norrfeldt?

Event 260051 represents the settlement of Sao Tome. This settlement holds a very special place in world history. This was where the refined model of a plantation worked by black slaves used in the new world was invented. If it were not for the settlement of Sao Tome the atlantic slave trade would have developed to it's highest extent at a much later date or not at all. Many of the settlers mentioned in the event description were in fact the inventors of this style of plantation. After a slave uprising took place on Sao Tome some of the plantation owners moved to Brazil and took their techniques with them and forever changed the world history of both Africa and the new world. Sao Tome was also vey profitable. Much trade in slaves at Elmina as well as other provinces like Douala and Kribe were largely dependant on Sao Tome as a purchaser of these slaves.

Because of this I think it warrents an event. The event doesn't exactly give Portugal a ridiculous advantage either.

Admittedly event 260050 is of much smaller significance from a world history perspective but at least it was very significan to Azoreans. The primary purpose of this event is to fix gameplay problems. What happens with the Azores is that it doesn't get the +5% bonus growth rate that other colonies get. neither do the Canaries. In addition to this plagues often hit the Azores reducing it's slow growing population even further. I have seen Tago have 200,000 pop and the Azores bearly break 5,000 at this time and this is with me putting both my first refinery as well as my first governor on the Azores. It is then aslo surpassed in pop by other colonies that started at roughly the same size as the Azores. This is unrealistic. The Azores were heavily populated right off the bat. The event is desined to fix this problem.

The complaint of Isaac's that no one will colonize it is, no disrespect intended to Isaac, pure and total nonsense. The math proves him wrong by far. Let's analyze this shall we.

Each colonist for the Azores costs 20 each. It will require 10 colonists. occasionally 1 will fail. So for the sake of argument let's assume 1 does. This brings a total of 220 ducats to fully colonize the Azores. In addition to this 50 ducats are spent for a baliff. Now let's analyze how much money a Portuguese player can make by doing this before the 1471 event.

A fully upgraded Azores with level 2 Infra tech on level 3 stability produces 14 ducats annually and 21 ducats trade. In addition to this it produces 4.7 ducats annually with a census tax. We'll begin our calcualtions starting with january 1422 as this is usally when all the colonizing and baliff promoting is completed by. We are of course ignoring all income it made prior to this as well as the additional income it would make if level 3 infra is achieved before 1471 and it usually is acquired before then.

Portgual recieves roughly 25% of the trade of the Azores. So for 21 trade well round it off to 5 ducats annually. 1471-1422= 49 years. 5 times 49 = 245 ducats from trade alone by 1471.

Now let us analyze it's income which is located to the left of the sugar icon. It is 14 ducats annually. 14 times 49 = 636 ducats.

In adition to this in 1452 Portugal get's an event that gives the Azores +1 tax. We'll calcualte it as of 1453 incase the event triggers a bit late. With +3 stability this of course makes it +1.2. So we'll times 1.2 by 18 years and it equals 21.6 ducats.

Now let us consider it's census tax income. which is 4.7 annually beacause of the baliff and the +3 stability 4.7 times 49 = 230.3 ducats.

In addition to this the +1 tax event gives 1.2 additonal ducats to this as well. So it is figured the same way giving an additional 21.6 ducats.

nowlet's add all this together.
245
636
21.6
230.3
21.6
=1154.5
Now we'll minus the 270 invested which brings our total net profit to 884.5 ducats. This is how much profit is made from the Azores by colonizing it on squedule and not waiting for my event to kick in to get city status for free.
251.9 ducats come from the inflation free income alone. This in itself almost pays for the investment.

As you can see not getting 884.5 ducats by 1471 would be a very foolish option to choose. An AI of course will colonize it well before 1471 so it is a mute issue for them. We really only need to consider whether a human player will be given an unfair advantage.

So Isaac's reason for protesting this event as you can see here, no disrespect intended, is pure baloney.

[Isaac Brock]

The complaint of Isaac's that no one will colonize it is, no disrespect intended to Isaac, pure and total nonsense. The math proves him wrong by far. Let's analyze this shall we.

Each colonist for the Azores costs 20 each. It will require 10 colonists. occasionally 1 will fail. So for the sake of argument let's assume 1 does. This brings a total of 220 ducats to fully colonize the Azores. In addition to this 50 ducats are spent for a baliff. Now let's analyze how much money a Portuguese player can make by doing this before the 1471 event.

A fully upgraded Azores with level 2 Infra tech on level 3 stability produces 14 ducats annually and 21 ducats trade. In addition to this it produces 4.7 ducats annually with a census tax. We'll begin our calcualtions starting with january 1422 as this is usally when all the colonizing and baliff promoting is completed by. We are of course ignoring all income it made prior to this as well as the additional income it would make if level 3 infra is achieved before 1471 and it usually is acquired before then.

Portgual recieves roughly 25% of the trade of the Azores. So for 21 trade well round it off to 5 ducats annually. 1471-1422= 49 years. 5 times 49 = 245 ducats from trade alone by 1471.

Now let us analyze it's income which is located to the left of the sugar icon. It is 14 ducats annually. 14 times 49 = 636 ducats.

In adition to this in 1452 Portugal get's an event that gives the Azores +1 tax. We'll calcualte it as of 1453 incase the event triggers a bit late. With +3 stability this of course makes it +1.2. So we'll times 1.2 by 18 years and it equals 21.6 ducats.

Now let us consider it's census tax income. which is 4.7 annually beacause of the baliff and the +3 stability 4.7 times 49 = 230.3 ducats.

In addition to this the +1 tax event gives 1.2 additonal ducats to this as well. So it is figured the same way giving an additional 21.6 ducats.

nowlet's add all this together.
245
636
21.6
230.3
21.6
=1154.5
Now we'll minus the 270 invested which brings our total net profit to 884.5 ducats. This is how much profit is made from the Azores by colonizing it on squedule and not waiting for my event to kick in to get city status for free.
251.9 ducats come from the inflation free income alone. This in itself almost pays for the investment.

As you can see not getting 884.5 ducats by 1471 would be a very foolish option to choose. An AI of course will colonize it well before 1471 so it is a mute issue for them. We really only need to consider whether a human player will be given an unfair advantage.

So Isaac's reason for protesting this event as you can see here, no disrespect intended, is pure baloney.

Let's have another look shall we? I think the return on investement is a better choice to look at here, and based on your numbers that return is:
( 5 d trade + 14 d production + 4.7 d census + 4.7 d taxes )/ (270 d investment)

This is indeed quite favourable (10.5%). However, I'm not sure you have the production income right, you're number of 14d seems like it assumes a production efficiency of 70% or so. You have definitely assumed 100% trade efficiency for Portugal, in fact it'll be more like 60%. I'd also question whether you'd be at 3 stability the whole time.

Finally the colony itself is not without value. It will still produce 2.5 d of trade, of which Portugal will get about 0.5 d, it will produce about 1.4 d of production income. I'm neglecting trade taxes, as you have. So then my realistic return is:
(3d trade + 14d production + 3.9 d census + 3.9 d taxes - 0.5 d trade - 1.4 d production) / 270 d

for something like 8.5%, which is still excellent (chief judge is only 2%!). This depends rather critically on production efficiency.

For Portugal there are better deals available (TPs pay off better), but in 1419 you don't have access to them, and you have colonists to spare.

However there are two other reason why it's better to wait for the event. First you save 220 d, although in 1419 that should be discounted ratehr severely (to say 50-100 d). Second, and for me the clincher, is that by leaving Azores as a colony you save 25% on your tech costs until such a time as you add a fourth province. This is a HUGE effect.

On balance I'd colonize it myself. But to me it's a close call, and that is a problem. It's not the slam dunk you suggest.

[idontlikeforms]

Let's have another look shall we? I think the return on investement is a better choice to look at here, and based on your numbers that return is:
( 5 d trade + 14 d production + 4.7 d census + 4.7 d taxes )/ (270 d investment)

This is indeed quite favourable (10.5%). However, I'm not sure you have the production income right, you're number of 14d seems like it assumes a production efficiency of 70% or so. You have definitely assumed 100% trade efficiency for Portugal, in fact it'll be more like 60%. I'd also question whether you'd be at 3 stability the whole time.

Finally the colony itself is not without value. It will still produce 2.5 d of trade, of which Portugal will get about 0.5 d, it will produce about 1.4 d of production income. I'm neglecting trade taxes, as you have. So then my realistic return is:
(3d trade + 14d production + 3.9 d census + 3.9 d taxes - 0.5 d trade - 1.4 d production) / 270 d

for something like 8.5%, which is still excellent (chief judge is only 2%!). This depends rather critically on production efficiency.

For Portugal there are better deals available (TPs pay off better), but in 1419 you don't have access to them, and you have colonists to spare.

However there are two other reason why it's better to wait for the event. First you save 220 d, although in 1419 that should be discounted ratehr severely (to say 50-100 d). Second, and for me the clincher, is that by leaving Azores as a colony you save 25% on your tech costs until such a time as you add a fourth province. This is a HUGE effect.

On balance I'd colonize it myself. But to me it's a close call, and that is a problem. It's not the slam dunk you suggest.

You're right about the trade efficiency, I totally forgot about that. Idon't understandthe production effieciency.

The 14 ducats is the cumulative of income besides trade, located on the left side of the sugar icon. Isn't this the total after production efficiency is factored in too.

I don't understand what you're saying about the tech research cost increase . Could you please explain that?

Also supposeing that the tech research cost make it not worth it, which I'm not saying that it does, but wouldn't a player then just colonize to like 5 or so on the Azores. Besides they will get the Canaries for awhile and waiting until 1471 to grab any colonies sounds like that may have too many other consequences to make even the tech research bonus worth the wait. When I play I try to upgrade the Cape Verde quickly, and colonize Nouachkot too so I can get the event for it on time. I also grab Leone asap. Of course with my adjustments I proposed these last 2 can't always be done on time as they depend on explorers discovering them. I can no longer just tell Fernando Castro to move there. So given these other considerations, even if a tech research bonus is maintained by just sticking to 3 cities, is it still worth it to delay colonizing the Azores?

[Isaac Brock]

Tech costs scale with the number of cities you have. Azores is not a rich as the other Portuguese provinces, and won't add much to trade, so you can get techs much faster if you avoid colonizing anything to population 1000. This means that you can only have a handful of colonies at all, so you have to TP like mad, but it will get you techs significantly faster.

However, I agree that it's generally not worth it, and the El Mina event and gold make a huge difference in that calculation. And by 1460's you're going to be at a larger number of provinces anyway. I do think that it's better to colonize them as Portugal, so it's more the principle of the population boosts that I dislike - they are worth next to nothing if you're over 1000, but are incredibly valuable if you're under 1000. Allows a lot of manipulation.