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Copyright and the AAR

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wathombe said:
For instance, Tom Clancy could not do a major "revision" of The Hunt for Red October, then sell the revision to another publishing house without the permission of the original publisher.
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Hi Wathombe!

Unfortunately I believe you're comparing apples and oranges here. Remember a publisher is going to demand extensive rights to a novel .... exclusive rights. This would prevent Tom Clancy in your example from selling "Red October" to one company, then turning around and selling it to a second group. Unless the author is very well known and VERY well thought off, the publisher will tend to demand exclusive publishing rights. In that event you aren't creating a derivative work and selling it to anybody but them. Frog is currently concerned about the encumberances of a non-exclusive license, and I stand by my earlier assessment: They won't apply after extensive revisions.

However, as I mentioned Frog, when you do go for publication unless the manuscript is unrecognizable (and from what you said on your AAR thread I think it will be) it's best to be straight forward with the publishers. Hiring your own copyright lawyer is ... feasible, but expensive. Generally the publisher will have their own lawyers to resolve any outstanding issues.

Just as valuable, if you haven't gotten one from listening to us, is to get a bit of an education on British copyright law. There are any number of help books that should be able to answer your questions.
 
CatKnight,

Okay, you're right, that wasn't the best example. A publishing contract will of course include the assignment of any future revisions, versions, translations, et cetera.

My central point still stands, however, in that regardless of the extent of the revisions, the revised manuscript will still be a derivative work, and any underlying property will be part of the chain of title. Any party which has any right, title, or interest--exclusive or non-exclusive--to any part of the chain of title will need to be accounted for to the publisher. Trust me.

You are thus absolutely correct in that it is always best to be straightforward with any licensee. As I mentioned, any contract would require a rightsholder to represent and warrant that the chain of title is free and clear, which in this case (or in any of our cases) it would not be.
 
This is an exceptionally helpful thread. It answers most of the questions I've had.

I decided to do what Egg and some others did - I've deleted all the posts from my AARs that I think have an even remote chance of making it to the published products, in however a changed form. Even if just in a general inspiration.

I also completely stopped writing AARs, out of fear for my 'intellectual property'.

The problem I am facing is that I got one or two good ideas from the people who posted in my AARs; but I think I can only resolve them by talking directly to those people, who are my good friends.

I think many of the posters here are correct: if the final product resembles an AAR, it's simply not publishable. And an inspiration is OK.

Good luck to all those writing real books. Make sure you let us know about them when they come out!
 
Ouch, it seems we are witnessing a bit of frenzy in the AAR forums, which cannot be good for business!

I decided to do what Egg and some others did - I've deleted all the posts from my AARs that I think have an even remote chance of making it to the published products, in however a changed form. Even if just in a general inspiration.
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In light of this disturbing quote, I do think that the AAR forums should be in some way restricted from the general Paradox copyright rule, since that was created solely for game mechanics reasons, and not for literary and publishing purposes. If Paradox would have wanted to make use of their rights, they could have made a release, in which several AARs would have been bundled together as an advertising gimmick. It didn't happen and I fail to see what other use could these texts have to Paradox. I don't know how this exclusion from the copyright rule could be achieved but we need a to feel safe if we're to continue on the same path. Otherwise, we might be looking at other deleted AARs, lost forever. As trust!
 
Alexandru that will not happen :( the rule is general for all boards even ot :eek:


Gajin I think you're overreacting, as I see this the main fear here is someone stealing or ideas, and that ofc is possible in any public media...

The copyright is an issue ONLY if your AAR is publishable AS-IS or if you have very heavy references to the games, in which case you infringe the PE copyright to the game, even if it is only a derivative. But that would be the case whther you posted here or not, and is mostly an issue in CK as the personae there is PE creations, as opposed to the historical events of EU Vicky and HoI.

I sincerly hope you will reconsider, Alexandru is right, it would be devestating for the AAR fora if all deleted their sotries out of misinterpretated copyright rules, I've seen very few AARs here ready for anything close to publishing, and thus falling within this category.

If in doubt contact PE directly, but seriously, PE copyright is NOT a likely cause of concern when it comes to publishing your story (copycatting ofc is), as so many have stated the final novel will be at worst a derivation of your forum ideas and posts, not even a close one at that, and PE do not retain any exclusivity over that deriviation :)

V
 
Alexandru H. said:
Ouch, it seems we are witnessing a bit of frenzy in the AAR forums, which cannot be good for business!



In light of this disturbing quote, I do think that the AAR forums should be in some way restricted from the general Paradox copyright rule, since that was created solely for game mechanics reasons, and not for literary and publishing purposes. If Paradox would have wanted to make use of their rights, they could have made a release, in which several AARs would have been bundled together as an advertising gimmick. It didn't happen and I fail to see what other use could these texts have to Paradox. I don't know how this exclusion from the copyright rule could be achieved but we need a to feel safe if we're to continue on the same path. Otherwise, we might be looking at other deleted AARs, lost forever. As trust!
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The rule cannot be changed due to the CP laws. PE have to maintain a full CP without a waver to avoid watering down their rights to any part of the license, that is the way it works.

V
 
Ok, this is more troublesome than I thought. Two of my favourites CK AARs (frostbeastegg's and Shayatana's) have been erased. Too bad I haven't been able to save them (Gaijin de Moscu's original AARs are in my possesion, though) and maybe enjoy them in my old days... :(

What is more annoying is that the copyright rule was here before any of the AARs and there wasn't such a problem until today. Hmmm, this is why a simple reader-writer relationship just isn't suitable for the creation and maintainance of a community. "A writAAR is, most of the time, a self-centered being while a membAAR has to be detached from his own private enterprise if he wants to achieve some kind of success; a writAAR is mainly interested in participation within his own AAR, while a membAAR wants an undiscriminating pool of readers, free to choose their selections among every offer in the forum". What would happen if all the previous OscAARs would be erased (for publishing purposes)?
 
Alexandru H. said:
Ok, this is more troublesome than I thought. Two of my favourites CK AARs (frostbeastegg's and Shayatana's) have been erased. Too bad I haven't been able to save them (Gaijin de Moscu's original AARs are in my possesion, though) and maybe enjoy them in my old days... :(

What is more annoying is that the copyright rule was here before any of the AARs and there wasn't such a problem until today. Hmmm, this is why a simple reader-writer relationship just isn't suitable for the creation and maintainance of a community. "A writAAR is, most of the time, a self-centered being while a membAAR has to be detached from his own private enterprise if he wants to achieve some kind of success; a writAAR is mainly interested in participation within his own AAR, while a membAAR wants an undiscriminating pool of readers, free to choose their selections among every offer in the forum". What would happen if all the previous OscAARs would be erased (for publishing purposes)?
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And it really doesn't make any sense. Erasing the AARs doesn't affect Paradox's copyright. They have been posted here, which gives Paradox the copyright according to the user agreement, and erasing the posts doesn't destroy the copyright.
 
Valdemar said:
as I see this the main fear here is someone stealing or ideas, and that ofc is possible in any public media...
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In my case that is the main reason I deleted Red Hand, but there is another reason; I couldn't stand looking at something so broken and crushed compared to my vision. Working within the limits of the AAR...well in the end it just wasn't possible. The 90% I felt obliged to throw away was unimportant to the game and main 'aims' of an AAR, but critical to the story as a whole. Nuala became a hateable bitch because no one saw the scenes that made her sympathetic. She was just one of many casualties, and the situation was only going to get worse, much worse. The whole AAR went from perfectly sound to crumbling at the foundations within 12 hours; I realised I just couldn't write it as an AAR. You know the famous artists tantrum where they smash their work up? Well I suppose I am slightly guilty of that here.

Who here wants to read 5+ pages of AAR a day for a year? I suspect very few, but that kind of posting pace would be the only way to write what I wanted. I feel obliged to give my readers an ending, I do feel wretched at being unable to finish Red Hand, an ending that arrives before they get bored or real life calls them away. A year is an incredible amount of time, no one should have to wait that long. Is there even the interest in something that is only related to the game in the most tenuous of ways? Something focused intently on the characters, with many scenes where nothing much happens on the face of things?

I am writing another AAR, as I plan out Red Hand's transformation; it will be short and completed before I post so much as a word. More importantly it will be focused, as I wanted Red Hand to be; I will see how many are interested in what I wanted to write. As a game it can be summed up in a single sentence, as a story I expect it to be about 20 pages. It may be that there is an audience, and that on a far smaller scale I can work my vision. It is too late for Red Hand, that one truly can only be written as a book now, but Dragon's Tears...we will see.
 
I think people are really over-reacting to this thread. There are two facts that might help slow it down.

1) Some confirmation from PE that they have no intention of causing copyright conflicts

2) Someone who has published a work confirming whether or not publishers require a warrant that no one else has an intellectual property interest in the work.

PE can do the first (if their lawyers recommend it). Can anyone out there do the second?

For my part, nothing I put here remotely resembles the book I'm actually working on (that's not by design, just the way it worked out).

V.
 
I repeat, the CP isn't an issue, really it isn't :)

Alex can the membaars crap ;) its only faning the flames :)

The CP is there to protect the Games Licenses, and it is not a problem for this.... Its out of proportions, the only issue is the fear of stolen ideas, and the CP issue have no bearing on that.

Frog, as Richv pointed out, it is already posted here :) but have no fear, you are in the safe with the CP, it is a non issue unless you truly have publsihed you final novel on this board :)

V

EDIT the issue is also for PE, where to draw the line at what is a Game derivative AAR and what is pure fabtasy, thus the rule assume all posted here is derivatives :)
 
Voshkod said:
I think people are really over-reacting to this thread. There are two facts that might help slow it down.

1) Some confirmation from PE that they have no intention of causing copyright conflicts

2) Someone who has published a work confirming whether or not publishers require a warrant that no one else has an intellectual property interest in the work.

PE can do the first (if their lawyers recommend it). Can anyone out there do the second?

For my part, nothing I put here remotely resembles the book I'm actually working on (that's not by design, just the way it worked out).

V.
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Again PE cannot relinquish the CP claims in such a statement, even if they do not intend to ever use anything in here, the problem is such a claim would diminish their overall claim, and spoil the CP in other areas, according to their lawyers.

V
 
Well, I am finishing my novel by July 16 in draft and by August 30 as an edited version (hopefully!). I will then start the submission work - the agent letter, the search, all that stuff that takes months.

While some of my novel's mood is 'inspired' by the game, I had its core ideas and first chapter drafts at least 2 years before the game was released. So I think I should be fine. The mistake I made was to publish bits of it in the AAR forum as they fit so perfectly... So now I've deleted and re-written them almost completely.

We'll, I'll be happy to be a publishing test for the CP stuff :D

As for the over-reaction... I agree. But I began to feel damn uncomfortable when the CP talk started about a year ago (I think someone erased his China AAR, which was brilliant, saying he intended to convert it into a book). I wrote to Patric, never got a reply, and deleted my work.
 
Valdemar said:
The CP is there to protect the Games Licenses, and it is not a problem for this.... Its out of proportions, the only issue is the fear of stolen ideas, and the CP issue have no bearing on that.

Frog, as Richv pointed out, it is already posted here :) but have no fear, you are in the safe with the CP, it is a non issue unless you truly have publsihed you final novel on this board :)
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I would think this is sufficient assurance from PE on the copyright issue.

On the other issue, here is a sample contract from Atlantic Bridge (no, I've never heard of them either):

B. The Work does not infringe upon any copyright or proprietary right, common law or statutory law, and does not contain any material of libelous nature.

C. The Work is not in the public domain and the Author is the sole owner and copyright holder of the work with full power to enter into this contract.

D. If the Work has been previously published in whole or part, the Author currently holds all copyrights to the Work and is legally permitted to enter this agreement.
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And some more info from a legal website:

An author's specific representations may vary between different agreements however the scope of the representations should provide that the work is free of any legal defects and that the author has the unencumbered right to enter into the publishing agreement. Representations that are usually incorporated into the publishing agreement should include all or some of the following statements by the author: (1) the author is the only author of the work; (2) the author is the exclusive owner of all the rights transferred in the agreement to the publisher and these rights have not previously been transferred to another party; (3) the author's work is original except for any copyrightable material included in the work by the author for which permissions have been obtained by the author; (4) the work has not been previously published; (5) the work is not in the public domain; (6) the work does not infringe any third party's copyright, trademark or other proprietary rights; (7) the work is not libelous, obscene or otherwise contrary to the law; (8) the work does not violate any third party's right of privacy or publicity; (9) all statements of fact in the work are true and based upon deliberative research and all instruction and advice in the work is harmless and not negligent or defective; and (10) the author has the full power to enter into this agreement with the publisher and agrees not to enter into any other agreement that conflicts with the rights granted to the publisher in this agreement.
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(Emphasis added).

So there may be some concerns there. The problem, if any, is unlikely to lie with PE, but with the potential publisher. And they'll have their own lawyers try to determine the effect of PE's copyright statment.

But no one should panic because, as is noted here frequently, damn little of the stuff put up here, even the really good stuff, is what's going to be publishable.

V.
 
Voshkod said:
I would think this is sufficient assurance from PE on the copyright issue.

On the other issue, here is a sample contract from Atlantic Bridge (no, I've never heard of them either):



And some more info from a legal website:



(Emphasis added).

So there may be some concerns there. The problem, if any, is unlikely to lie with PE, but with the potential publisher. And they'll have their own lawyers try to determine the effect of PE's copyright statment.

But no one should panic because, as is noted here frequently, damn little of the stuff put up here, even the really good stuff, is what's going to be publishable.

V.
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I agree with Voshkod here, though any statements made here are mine, not PE's..

All I keep repreating is that this IS a public board, and as such, THAT is the concern, not the CP,

Yes P maintain some sort of CP/licensing issue over your idea IF it was posted here, but it is highly unlikely that they should ever excersise that right, and as I quoted Johan, they cannot use the info without your explicit consent.

Thus as Voshkod pointed out, the main issue would be IF a publishing house would consider an AAR here as an already public display of the idea that grew into a novel, and as such they would either A have to decide how far the derivative should be fore its an issue, or B contact PE to get any precieved CP released.

B is the easiest, as I stated PE will not publish anything from in here without your consent :)

V
 
Gaijin de Moscu said:
Well, I am finishing my novel by July 16 in draft and by August 30 as an edited version (hopefully!). I will then start the submission work - the agent letter, the search, all that stuff that takes months.

While some of my novel's mood is 'inspired' by the game, I had its core ideas and first chapter drafts at least 2 years before the game was released. So I think I should be fine. The mistake I made was to publish bits of it in the AAR forum as they fit so perfectly... So now I've deleted and re-written them almost completely.

We'll, I'll be happy to be a publishing test for the CP stuff :D

As for the over-reaction... I agree. But I began to feel damn uncomfortable when the CP talk started about a year ago (I think someone erased his China AAR, which was brilliant, saying he intended to convert it into a book). I wrote to Patric, never got a reply, and deleted my work.
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Sasha, that's the boat I'm in (except for having a finished story beyonod a concept), so I can understand that point of view (though my "real" writing is rather in German than in English). :)
 
I think a mountain is being made out of a mole hill here. I am in no position to speak on behalf of Paradox, however I think the salient points are as follows:

  1. PE has an interest in protecting their intellectual property. This means that they would not allow you to publish a book that is based on one of their games unless they receive some sort of consideration for you having done so. With regards to an AAR that was subsequently published, this would likely amount to merely an author's acknowledgement and would almost certainly not extend to any feduciary consideration (flat sum or roylaty percentage).
  2. PE has an interest in protecting possible future publishing aims - most notably something like a strategy guide. If an AAR was converted into a strategy guide for one of their games then they would (and should) wish to have some say over its content and also receive some form of tangeeable compensation since that sort of publication would be just as much their intellectual property as yours.
  3. PE must protect itself against possible litigation with regards to future enhancements to their games. This means that if in your AAR you offer up suggestions about how the game could be improved/modified and then they subsequently incorporate some part of your idea (whether they were actually influenced by your writing or simply decided to do it on the basis of other input) they need to be protected against having you sue them for royalties or a lump sum for part of your intellectual property becoming part of their game. As far as AARs goes this is a long shot, but there are other parts of this board where people post scenarios and mods that could end up in a game and they don't want to have to negotiate with every single person who writes an event or suggests a substantive change to an existing one. This, more than any other reason, is why the copyright notice exists at all.
  4. Much the same is true of things like the "What I'd like to see in EU3" type threads. If PE subsequently uses one or more of those ideas they don't want to be forced to negotiate with the idea's author (or be open to litigation from him/her) so the copyright notice on the board is designed to protect them from this possibility.
  5. Keep in mind that even though PE also has a publishing division, the copyright notice on the board does not remove your right to refuse them permission to alter or publish your AAR. You may do so and they would be unable to use your material since they are equally obliged to negotiate this same type of contract with you as they would be if they were approched by any other author.
  6. Since PE does have a publishing division, if your material is suitably good it's entirely possible that the best company for you to approach for subsequent publication would end up being PE. The copyright notice in no way affects any subsequent negotiations.
  7. If you were entering into contract negotiations with another publisher, you can simply contact Fredrik Malmberg to obtain a release from PE. I can guarantee you that he will not be unreasonable.
  8. Anyone concerned about someone else stealing their ideas should give their head a little shake. If someone does steal your work then they are violating copyright held both by you and by PE and would be open to dual litigation. In that respect, PE would be your best possible friend since they have legal resources that you might not be able to afford.
  9. If you are *that* worried about a good idea being stolen then by all means horde it and write a book without ever showing it to anyone else until you approach a publisher. Do not *ever* post it anywhere or in any form until you've got your book out on the store shelves. Even then, you'll probably be in a position to litigate someone when it shows up as a scan on the internet somewhere.
I think the thing to keep in mind is that the copyright notice is there to protect Paradox from litigation. It is not there as a means to inhibit or limit you, the writAAR.

On a sadder or more sober note, the fact that PE hasn't made a fuss over this thread or directed Fredrik Malmberg to respond here officially is that they really (as a company) pay little or no attention to the AAR forums at all. It's a little corner they set up to make some of their customers happy but otherwise pretty much ignore. If you feel that something you're writing is of the calibre that it could be published then simply contact Fredrik about getting a release. He might be a bit bemused but would be very unlikely to deny you. On the other hand, please don't everyone start emailing him all of a sudden since we don't really want to flood his in box with unneccesary mail...
 
Sorry to reopen this discussion a fortnight late, but something is troubling me.

Havard and MrT have said that PE claim a non-exclusive right in the copyright in anything posted, that the authors retain full control, etc.

That doesn't actually square with the forum rules:

All content posted on the message boards of Paradox is the exclusive intellectual property of Paradox. Copyright ownership resides in that content by Paradox and the Company is free to use any of the content as they wish. Anyone other than Paradox seeking to reprint, republish, or reproduce content posted on the Paradox message boards must receive the express written permission from the Webmaster of the Paradox forum in which the content was posted. By posting on the Paradox message boards you are agreeing to the above and relinquishing all copyright to the contents of the post(s) to Paradox.
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This is unequivocal. PE here offers a contract: in exchange for our letting you post on this forum, you absolutely assign all copyright in your posts to us. Thus PE owns it outright and can use the work however they like. It is not[/B[] a claim to a non-exclusive licence or anything like that.

There is a good argument that this is an enforceable contract. richvh is also right: deleting work already posted is too late.

I guess that, in practice, there will be no problem. However, when copyright problems do arise and need disentangling, they generate many fruitful hours of billable work for lawyers.
 
Well I do not know for any other place, but Johan himself claimed that for the AARs it is non-exclusive, as PE cannot claim an exclusive on the litterary stuff, differnt for the scripting though.. I suggest anyone with issues use the mail offered earlier.

V
 
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