1419: New Order II

Philip II said:

Excluding Austro-Russo-Turkish conflicts the last major war in europe was the one fought against england and burgundy.

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A conflict were England was not included i mean
When was the latest war between Russia-Austria-burgundy-Aragon-Venice-France-Venice, that was my point....

Fredrik82 said:

A conflict were England was not included i mean
When was the latest war between Russia-Austria-burgundy-Aragon-Venice-France-Venice, that was my point....

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heh...i think maybe some minor aragonese-venetian conflicts.

Hive said:

But this whole game have been odd, with few wars in Europe the last many sessions and 1 single naval nation to rule them all...

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That is sooo not true, i dont know if you RP here Hive or if you'r seriuse. :rofl:

I have no ability whatsover to do anything about Europe, England can't do that. Her job is to support the weakest one against the stronger one and try to even it out. Take the latest war as an example, what can england do? especially my England that face everyone else as enemies. I could jump in and out and try to assault provinces, that failed to 50%. I'm not able to make any major different whatsoever in a land war in Europe. Sure i can fund and support with those troops that i have but any kind of losses can be devestating for england in a long war.

Claiming that England rule Europe is BS, and the one who dont understand that have never played England before.
I'd say that the one who rule Europe is Austria, she can do whatever she want atm. and no-one can stop her. Especially not England.
And that is so fucking silly, that the player who play Austria claim that England is the one that rule Europe. When she is a friend with every neighbour except OE that hardly can make a different when Austria is allied to her three biggest enemies.

And the only reason why Hive can say this is because he have been ridicoules peaceful as that Austria, if i would have played that nation then i would have fought alot more wars. to encourage RP and the balance of the game. Allying everyone in Europe and say that England is the only major threat is just silly, not it's plain silly. I have no words for it.....
But obviously, that suite the most of the players in this game. Sadly

And what could i do to help OE in the latest war vs Austria? Nothing, i could send some cash. I could have sent like max 100K troops to assist OE, that would hardly make any differences. And the English funding was obviously not enough to help OE either.

Then what if Austria attack France, Russia, or Denmark? same problem there, England cant do a shit. The same if anyone else major land nation decied to attack someone else, England can't do a shit.

I had to accept Austrian demands when she invaded Denmark, there was no way in hell that i could fight off Austria and "save" Denmark. It was impossible. And then Hive started to demand even more things, Danzig? and then that Denmark had to leave English alliance. If the sub in Russia (Iron was new and wasn't that brainwashed as the others are in Europe so he "threatend" Hive when he started to demand more things) then god now what would happend.

I'm not saying that England is a innocent nation here, i know that i'm uber and rich and stuff, but claiming that i'm the nr1 nation in all areas is just BS, and what England isn't strongest at the seas? Just because i'm strongest at the seas and the most richest nation make me the most dangerous and evil nation, that is just some bad RP from Hive that have successfuly taken away every focus on Austrian actions to English.

ForzaA said:

That is not exactly what I said, it was *not* merely the uberness of england, but it did contribute- I'll sleep on it for a night, then give a longer explanation if I DO decide to quit, or withdraw my statement if I don't

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Forzaa, you claim that England is uber and stuff that make you leave the game? :rofl:

Tell me, what nation isnt uber in this game?
I'm strongest on the seas atm, yes. Will i be in future too? Not likely.

And in the latest war, you fought me once. you didn't even try to take ivoria, you didn't even try to take colonies in Asia or Africa or whatever. You didn't even try to send troops to the british islands to even try to force me to peace.

And then thinking on quitting for the reason that England is the most uber nation at the seas and that won some lucky naval battles that "won" the war for England?

*shrug*

Fredrik82 said:

Forzaa, you claim that England is uber and stuff that make you leave the game? :rofl:

Tell me, what nation isnt uber in this game?
I'm strongest on the seas atm, yes. Will i be in future too? Not likely.

And in the latest war, you fought me once. you didn't even try to take ivoria, you didn't even try to take colonies in Asia or Africa or whatever. You didn't even try to send troops to the british islands to even try to force me to peace.

And then thinking on quitting for the reason that England is the most uber nation at the seas and that won some lucky naval battles that "won" the war for England?

*shrug*

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I really am going to have to agree with fred on this.

Forzaa, the fact that you could spend months participating in a game and then get up and quit is quite a shocker. I also think its rude to post on the forum that you will quit because another nation is so *uber* (when, infact, it really isnt that uber). That really can hurt the player-in-question's performance. Fred shouldnt be made to feel guilty because he is playing well ~ last time i checked that was one of the points of europa.

While im aware your tech lags behind the rest of western europes', that still doesnt warrant you quitting. If i remeber correctly, it was aragon which was the first european nation to expand beyond europe. You had control of north africa( and its gold) before 1492.

* Dont piss in the water, then complain that your thirsty

** I know it seems like im really thrashing you forzaa, i just dont want to see you quit

*** BTW, hive you said before there were 2 ppl who were thinking of quitting, who was the other?

Fredrik82 said:

And what could i do to help OE in the latest war vs Austria? Nothing, i could send some cash. I could have sent like max 100K troops to assist OE, that would hardly make any differences. And the English funding was obviously not enough to help OE either.

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Well even swedish attack on Russia was not able to help as during winters I was able to do nothing so I only got over +50 WS after OE was forced to peace being in +40-46 WS was annoying then finally after OE makes peace I get next summer +65 WS it was to late .

Rezag said:

Well even swedish attack on Russia was not able to help as during winters I was able to do nothing so I only got over +50 WS after OE was forced to peace being in +40-46 WS was annoying then finally after OE makes peace I get next summer +65 WS it was to late .

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Manpower.

Austria vs. OE alone was unbalanced in favour of Austria at that stage because of the CRT and leader advantage. Once Ironfoundersson started subbing, he started using the large manpower pool that Konstantin had left nearly unused, and actually decided to send some enough troops to besiege Astrakhan and support the siege. I didn't have enough troops to hold off Austria in the west, let alone Russia as well, and my manpower pool was exhausted several months before I peaced, despite the difficulties of recruitment in the Balkans.

Fredrik82 said:

And Sweden only joined with navy obviously.

I got a feeling that none of you guys really was interested to fight England nor to win over it, you do it so you can continue to share a common enemie so you don't have to fight in Europe. I mean, when was the latest major war in Europe?

I dont blame you guys for getting bored, but i don't feel sorry for ya...
It's sad for the game if nothing else.

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Swedish goal was simple only to see if english fleet could be defeated and new nations to take hes place as masters of sea.

I could have easyly invaded NA, India or Australia but I wasnt in this war for land but for seas. As it has been the english fleet thats been the reason for all whining for long time.

What Iam worried is that even if allinces are removed will it mean anything new realy war after centuries peace in west europe between old allies now how likely that is. So will it be that only nations that can make any change are England&Sweden as Iam realy getting bored to be only one who makes any suprise shifts.

Owen said:

Manpower.

Austria vs. OE alone was unbalanced in favour of Austria at that stage because of the CRT and leader advantage. Once Ironfoundersson started subbing, he started using the large manpower pool that Konstantin had left nearly unused, and actually decided to send some enough troops to besiege Astrakhan and support the siege. I didn't have enough troops to hold off Austria in the west, let alone Russia as well, and my manpower pool was exhausted several months before I peaced, despite the difficulties of recruitment in the Balkans.

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Yes sad we got so mutch wiser Tzar who knew how to wage war this sessio.

I think the problem is there are too many uber players and that the 1419 scenario is unbalanced.

Oh and important nations (Portugal, Russia) have been subbed or not played at all, due to lack of players available.

Hive said:

That's probably true. If what Fred says about eg. Burgundy and Sweden's support limits are true, then it's only a lack of will that prevents them from succeeding.

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It's time to check the stats and work out whether there really is a problem, people.

This is a list of nation's land/naval slider value, followed by their naval tech, number of shipyards and number of naval manus, with the list going from largest to smallest, in terms of provinces:

Russia 10 4 0 0
OE 10 5 1 0
England 0 42 5 6
Aragon 1 26 1 0
France 10 18 1 1
Denmark 0 37 2 7
Austria 10 17 1 1
Burgudy 7 42 6 4
Sweden 5 42 4 7
Venice 0 32 2 0

So, England, Burgundy and Sweden have the best naval tech together. England has the largest naval support, and while Sweden and Burgundy are close, both will have slightly more expensive warships. Sweden and Burgundy together easily outnumber England in support and do so in numbers even now, though Denmark also has a large navy, and her naval tech isn't far behind.

Meanwhile, Aragon and Venice both suffer from their tech being generally low. I can't tell if the bad war losses they suffered fully explain this. Certainly inflation has been a hindrance.

Two European nations have refused to engage with naval matters at all, despite building substantial colonial holdings. Step forward France and Austria.

OE and Russia have not invested in naval tech at all, because of the need to keep up in other techs while in the Orthodox tech group. The question on everyone's lips is "Will Russia ever be able to build transports?"

On balance, England with Denmark should be able to beat Sweden and Burgundy, but not alone. Other nations helping would only make it worse for England.

Now, is this a cause for everyone to remain at peace in Europe and gang up on England in order to be able to invade the British Isles? I would argue that it is not. The current strength of England's navy, relative to other nations pretty much matches her historical strength, and it is used for the same purpose. This didn't stop France, Spain, Austria or Prussia fighting wars in Europe historically.

Oh, and this screenshot shows you what can happen when a vindictive coalition with much greater manpower gets the better of the Royal Navy. I imagine Fredde is willing to fight quite hard to prevent this (taken at the end of the Mach3 game):

Hive said:

Indeed. Playing the 1419 scenario was an interesting, but failed experiment.

Next time, I'll find some different experiment to try.

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You think so? I think it would have been fine if Portugal had been played week in, week out. Even now, I don't think it's particularly bad, and most of western Europe seems to have rebuilt their fleets ready to have another, better crack at England.

Owen said:

Also, can we plead with Ironfoundersson to finally come on board as a perm? We've had so many unreliable people volunteer for Russia and then not turn up, it's silly.

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Looks like my thursday wil be fre most of the itmes, so I can come in as a perm for the remaining 80 years. Though Russia is in quite a bad shape, low fortification, low tech and its manpower advantage is almost gone with CCs all over Europe. Maybe I can get some compensation for the years of bad sub managment

Rezag said:

Yes sad we got so mutch wiser Tzar who knew how to wage war this sessio.

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Only barely. Almost all your attacks on the siege army in ingmarland were not spotted by me, thus I never got to reinforce that army in time.

Owen said:

Two European nations have refused to engage with naval matters at all, despite building substantial colonial holdings. Step forward France and Austria.

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It is indeed strange that a country can have a major colonial base without a good navy.