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Thread: VIP - POPs, POP Growth and Demographic Issues

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    Banned Lycortas2's Avatar

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    VIP - POPs, POP Growth and Demographic Issues

    I have just finished fixing the POP of the world number wise. I adjusted religion a bit here and there as well.

    Basically this lowered India, China, The Ottomans (Syria, Iraq, Anatolia, & Bulgaria), Persia, Crete, Cyprus, Palestine & Trans-Jordan, French Guyanna, Ireland and Tunisia.

    I have increased population in Algeria and Morocco.

    Mike

    edit: many, many other changes have been added & fixed. Most of this is not in the VIP or POP mod for reasons unknown to me.
    If anyone would like my POP mod email me at: lysimachus@charter.net
    Last edited by Lycortas2; 14-03-2004 at 21:31.

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    Banned Lycortas2's Avatar

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    VIP - POPs

    Hi all,

    If our other groups (Balkans, Ottomans etc) could send their info on population locations & ammounts for different ethnic groups to me I will work it into the game files.
    I am getting fairly good at it after 12 hours of editing yesterday! Holy bleeding eyes Batman!

    I am a little disgruntled at how bad the Pop situation was screwed up in these files. As an example, Argentina was completely correct, while Tunisia has in the game files 4,000,000 people which is exactly 4x the size it should be. Now that is understandable; someone was told 'give the Tunisians 1,000,000 people' and that person thought they were being told 1,000,000 POPs. Which gives 4,000,000 people.

    The entries i can not figure out are Persia which I had to multiple by .22 to get correct figures. Or Bulgaria by .46. Or Cyprus by .33. Just way out wacked numbers! Well, they are fixed... mostly.

    If you want it, give me a yell.

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    Banned Lycortas2's Avatar

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    umm..

    I will be posting some numbers/sources in the next couple of weeks.

    The resources and distribution are affected by population levels around the world; when i remove 75% of Persia's population it affects the world market.
    Does Persia produce an equal share of grain in the world? If they do not and I lower their population there will be more or less grain on the world market. These issues are all interconnected and can not be looked at in isolation.

    This is why i am not stopping work on this even though unknown-x is doing a mod of AI & factory productivity. I think his AI is wonderfull, but i think my population/terrain/resources/resource pricing combo will be better than that part of his mod.

    Michael
    Last edited by Lycortas2; 12-12-2003 at 15:16.

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    First Lieutenant stefano2294's Avatar
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    nationality/culture changes

    just a couple of notes regarding provinces:
    Corsica should either have its own culture or should be given at least 20% Southern Italian or Northern Italian after all this island was a posession of Genoa until 1746
    Fiume and all provinces on the adriatic coast to the west of Fiume should be part Italian. in 1919 D'Annunzio established a Republic in Fiume in defiance of the Versailles negotiations. The city was later split in two by the Italian and Yugoslavian governments.
    all of the turkish coastal provinces should have a greek minority and, correct me if I'm wrong, but some Ottoman provinces need to have minority Jewish. For example Salonika (I don't know what the province is in the game) was more than 50% jewish, Baghdad was also around half Jewish until after World War I, and finally Istanbul had many semites
    this is all I've noticed so far, but to date I've only been playing as Piemonte and the Ottomans in grand campaign
    "...But the fates have seen otherwise. The machinations of a hostile Power, moved by hatred, compel me after many long years of peace to take up the sword to preserve the honour of my Monarchy, to defend its integrity and its power, and to stand guard over its possessions...." Franz Josef
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  5. #5
    First Lieutenant valisk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefano2294
    just a couple of notes regarding provinces:
    Corsica should either have its own culture or should be given at least 20% Southern Italian or Northern Italian after all this island was a posession of Genoa until 1746
    Fiume and all provinces on the adriatic coast to the west of Fiume should be part Italian. in 1919 D'Annunzio established a Republic in Fiume in defiance of the Versailles negotiations. The city was later split in two by the Italian and Yugoslavian governments.
    all of the turkish coastal provinces should have a greek minority and, correct me if I'm wrong, but some Ottoman provinces need to have minority Jewish. For example Salonika (I don't know what the province is in the game) was more than 50% jewish, Baghdad was also around half Jewish until after World War I, and finally Istanbul had many semites
    this is all I've noticed so far, but to date I've only been playing as Piemonte and the Ottomans in grand campaign
    Provinces like Smyrna, had very large Greek minorities and Constantinople had about 40% Greek population until the 1920s iirc
    War is an evil thing, but to submit to the dictation of other states is worse...
    Freedom, if we hold fast to it, will ultimately restore our losses, but submission
    will mean permanent loss of all that we value... To you who call yourselves men of peace,
    I say: You are not safe unless you have men of action on your side.

    Thucydides c 460 - c 411 BCE

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    Banned Lycortas2's Avatar

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    Russia

    Hi all,

    There are many population corrections being proposed in the Russia section...
    virtually all of them are good choices.

    Do we want to bring this all together here?

    Mike

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    the Infidel Tunch Khan's Avatar
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    POP correction issues about Greeks, Jews and more, are being discussed in VIP-Balkans and VIP-Ottoman threads.
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    Banned Lycortas2's Avatar

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    sources et al

    Hi all

    Source info on pop changes. Remember, I am not at the moment adjusting pop location, i am adjusting pop total numbers.

    I do believe that the biggest mistake Paradox made designing this game is the graded changes in pop size-efficiency. Two 1000's are better than one 2000.
    This really helps multi ethnic countries such as Austria and soon our Ottomans as we are adding & changing Pops. I do not yet have any good answer except maybe Paradox will make the Pops efficiancy more of a steady growth curve, or we could mod the major nation-states such as France & Britain to split some of their Pops in two to give them a bit more adaptability.

    But that is some one elses decision!

    Sources:
    Persia i multiplied their Pops by .22. My sources were Julian Bharier's
    Population Studie 22 and J.C. Russel's Late Ancient and Medieval Populations .
    The Pop started at 30m plus, I adjusted it to 6.7m.

    Iraq I mutiplied by .52 to lower the pop down to about 1.1m.
    Same sources plus a British survey taken for the sultan in the 1890's.

    Bulgaria I multiplied by .46 to lower their pop down to about 2.25m.
    Cambridge Economic History of Europe & Ottoman census data from 1888.

    Asia Minor i multiplied by .38 to lower its pop to about 10m including Constantinople. About 9m in Asia.
    Same sources as Bulgaria

    Korea I multiplied by .21 to lower their massive pop down to a more accurate 8m.
    Source: Hoon K Lee Land Utilisation and Rural Economy in Korea.

    Syria & Lebanon were a disaster with 10m + people! I multiplied by .12 to bring it to an accurate number.
    Source: There are no direct sources for the Ottoman centuries; I have tracked Syrian pop through the centuries and it tended to stay between 1.5m and 1.75m. With the low growth economically & culturally in non Turkish provinces of the empire I am going for 1.65m people at game start.

    Palestine, Jordan, Crete: .5 multiplier.
    Source:Atlas of World Population History.

    Cyprus has actually had very good census information both from the Ottoman years & shortly after the British takeover. .33 multiple
    Sources: Britiah official census registers, Island of Cyprus.

    French Guyana only has, what, 70,000 people today? Most demographers figure between 10,000 and 30,000 in 1836.

    Ireland has 21m people at game start... do any of you need proof that that number is complete bull? huh? no, good.
    I lowered to a hair below 7m.
    For a source the Cambridge Economic History is fine.

    Andaman Islands i lowered completly from gut instinct. So sue me!

    Algeria & Morocco were vastly low so I brought both up to about 2m.
    Tunisia i lowered to 1m from 4m. I think that was just a misunderstanding on someones part at Paradox as it is a perfect 4:1 ratio.
    The Maghreb has since 700Ce. maintained a 2:2:1 ration between Morocco, Algeria & Tunisia.
    Source:
    Populations of the Middle East and North Africa Clarke and Fisher.

    Michael

  9. #9
    Minister of Peace for Europe Moderator Grosshaus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lycortas2
    Not to be too much of a pain but its more or less my thread and we do not have a VIP population thread.
    As to correctness, I am correct the game is woefully wrong in many cases. I did not even need to check sources when i looked at these pop figures!
    Instead of hijacking a thread you can always start a new one. If it's seen as desperately needed for VIP by me or Guinnessmonkey it can even have an "official" VIP - name format.

    Just remember to work in co-operation with regional threads and general questions about pop modding belong to pop subforum.

    btw. nobody owns a thread, especially if he hasn't even started it
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  10. #10
    Marshal of Poland Halibutt's Avatar
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    Do we really need a VIP POP thread? IMO the whole POP mod is enough and we could simply keep our efforts there.
    Cheers
    1.4.5-compatible ICE+MPP+YFP pack
    You forgot Poland now version 1.3 (Feb.18)
    Improved SOV leaders

    Originally posted by Juu:
    The Soviets won the war. We happened to be nearby.

  11. #11
    Minister of Peace for Europe Moderator Grosshaus's Avatar
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    The thing is pop forum was supposed to be about pop modding in general, so it isn't that good either to have VIP issues discussed there. Perhaps a better way would be to have a VIP Pops subforum like technology has?
    Pity comes for free, but jealousy must be earned - Lauri Tähkä

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  12. #12
    POPs are one huge mess anyway. Errors sometimes border criminal.
    Fiume (why is the name of the province "Fiume" anyway? it took me quite some time to figure out what is that.) is the least of it. Idrsko (again what the hell is "Idrsko"?) is 100% Italian when there never was any. At the same time Udine hasn`t got a single Slovene. Neither does Trieste. Or Karnten. And then there is the Serb free Vojvodina and Croatian free Bosnia (again what happened to Herzegovina?)...

  13. #13
    ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Jayavarman's Avatar
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    Yes. I was puzzled about the general purpose of the main scneario forum's POP subforum. The organization of new POPs for VIP would be much easier with a VIP POP subforum.

  14. #14
    Marshal of Poland Halibutt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip V
    Yes. I was puzzled about the general purpose of the main scneario forum's POP subforum. The organization of new POPs for VIP would be much easier with a VIP POP subforum.
    I started a POP reference thread with link to all the POP modifications I found, regardless of the thread they are attached to. Links to new ready files will be added on the run.
    Cheers
    1.4.5-compatible ICE+MPP+YFP pack
    You forgot Poland now version 1.3 (Feb.18)
    Improved SOV leaders

    Originally posted by Juu:
    The Soviets won the war. We happened to be nearby.

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    Nitpicker Aetius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lycortas2
    Persia i multiplied their Pops by .22. My sources were Julian Bharier's
    Population Studie 22 and J.C. Russel's Late Ancient and Medieval Populations .
    The Pop started at 30m plus, I adjusted it to 6.7m.
    Found this:
    Code:
    Population Estimates (in thousands)									
    	1800	1812	1838	1867	1869	1884	1888	1891	1909
    Gardane	9000								
    Thompson				4400					
    Houtum-Schindler						7654			
    Zolotoliv							6000		
    Curzon								9000	
    Medredev									10000
    Be'mont		5000	6000		5000				
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    "We demand guaranteed, rigidly-defined, areas of doubt and uncertainty" Vroomfondel

  16. #16
    Banned Lycortas2's Avatar

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    numbers

    So my numbers are not too far off!

    Mike

  17. #17
    I'm Lazy. anti_strunt's Avatar

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    Will these POP changes include some stuff from the POP subforum?
    I couldn't really think of anything witty to put here, but you've got to have a signature, right?

    Can a human player with cores on half of Europe and four cultures defeat the AI and recreate the Roman Empire?
    The Kings and Queens of Sweden. Did I do that?

    Lurking Hanger-On (like a virtual barnacle, sort of) to the AGCEEP Project.

  18. #18
    ★ ★ ★ ★ ★ Jayavarman's Avatar
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    Please do not have two seperate POP mods.

  19. #19
    I'm Lazy. anti_strunt's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip V
    Please do not have two seperate POP mods.
    That was sort-of my question, I think POP work should be centralized, much like the GUFSM for EU2 or whatever, having several would be confusing.
    I couldn't really think of anything witty to put here, but you've got to have a signature, right?

    Can a human player with cores on half of Europe and four cultures defeat the AI and recreate the Roman Empire?
    The Kings and Queens of Sweden. Did I do that?

    Lurking Hanger-On (like a virtual barnacle, sort of) to the AGCEEP Project.

  20. #20
    Marshal of Poland Halibutt's Avatar
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    [SHAMELESS AD]The first POP mod installer is ready for download. Check my sig[/SHAMELESS AD]
    Cheers
    1.4.5-compatible ICE+MPP+YFP pack
    You forgot Poland now version 1.3 (Feb.18)
    Improved SOV leaders

    Originally posted by Juu:
    The Soviets won the war. We happened to be nearby.

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