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Thread: The Lords of the Horizons: Portuguese AAR

  1. #1

    The Lords of the Horizons: Portuguese AAR

    Played on hard/agressive. EU 1.09, IGC 2.0

    The Iberian Wars

    In 1492 Portugal was not much of a country. It consisted of three provinces in Europe, one in North Africa, two cities in Azores and Capo Verde islands and few trading posts in Africa. The country’s treasury was full of gold (675,000 ducats) and it had an advanced knowledge in naval technology (level 4). Portugal had a standing army of 24,000 infantry and 6,000 cavalry and an impressive fleet of 21 warships and 5 transports. However, Portuguese main advantages did not lie in the military strength of the country. Portugal possessed excellent officer corps and knowledge of sea routes in India. Country’s strategic location on the edge of the known world made an overseas expansion easier and more desirable. Numbers of explorers and conquistadors were eager to travel into unknown and general population was eager to settle overseas as well.

    However, Portuguese recognized that their main obstacle on the way of creating a colonial empire would not be hurricanes and aggressive natives, but competition. Their main competitor was the united kingdom of Spain. Thankfully, it was rather distracted by the siege of Granada at the time, but the end of it was near. Time was ripe for a gamble, and the King of Portugal, Juan II, did not hesitate to seize the moment. In January of 1492 the Portuguese ambassador in Madrid delivered a declaration of war to the royal court of Ferdinand and Isabella.

    First Portuguese-Spanish War 1492-1494

    The war lasted only two years. Portuguese took advantage of Spanish lack of fortifications in Estramadura and Murcia and continuously harassed the former with cavalry raids, keeping main Spanish army of 40,000 from marching on Granada. Another cavalry squadron assisted the Moors with the siege of Cadiz, and later, when Spaniards raised 4,000 and 30 cannons in Gibraltar, continuously attacked that army. In the end the squadron commander lost 80% of his men, but Spanish army was prevented from reaching Granada and taking it before the fall of Cadiz.

    Meanwhile, main Portuguese army of 14,000 infantry and 3,000 cavalry conquered Valencia and fought a valiant battle against 16,000 Spaniards in Madrid. The battle was lost with the losses of 7,000 men. Spanish lost less than 1,000. The Moors were convinced that the war was as good as the lost and offered Spanish peace, paying 50,000 ducats in war indemnities. Portugal, however, was not finished. All of its fortresses were upgraded and a small expedition was sent to seize the Canary Islands from Spain. Retreating Portuguese army besieged Cadiz and reinforced with 20 cannons took the city in April of 1494. All this time Portuguese cavalry made unbelievable sacrifices, preventing Spanish from moving south. In May of 1494 Ferdinand and Isabella had to agree to Portuguese terms of peace.

    As a result of this war, Portugal received the rich province of Andalusia and had to adapt its religious policy toward the Muslim population there. Portuguese total losses in the war numbered 13,000 infantry, 2,700 cavalry and 9 cannons. The navy lost 1 warship and 1 transport. Throughout the war Portuguese maintained the effort of exploration, discovered America and established a number of trading posts in Brazil. A trading post in Fernando Po was expanded into a colony, to provide the navy with a base for further explorations in the south.

    France was one of the few who saw the advantages of having an ally like Portugal, and in 1494 agreed to admit Portuguese in its alliance with Savoy, Papal States and Hafsids. A year later Juan II died and Manual I, later known as "The Fortunate" inherited the throne. He fully supported the diplomatic ideas of his predecessor and when France declared war on England, Portugal was among the first ones to support the French… even if only in spirit. The war came to an indecisive conclusion in 1497, but the Portuguese took an advantage of the fact that all of Europe’s main players were pre-occupied with fighting and further expanded in Africa and America. It even established one trading post in India, but couldn’t advance any further due to a lack of reliable maps of the region.

    In February of 1500 Spain declared war on Granada. The conquest of the Moors was postponed by the First Iberian War, but not stopped. In March the cross took over the crescent on the minarets of the city.

    Manuel II knew that Portugal was next, but could do little to stop the inevitable. Instead, he brought the country in debt, to finance further overseas expansion. When the war came in 1502 the only hope of the King was France.

    Second Portuguese-Spanish War 1502-1505

    In February of 1502 Ferdinand declared war on Portugal, hoping to re-gain the province of Andalusia, which was crucial for Spain’s expansion plans in the Americas. Spain was supported by Milan, Persia, Naples, Lorraine, Palatinate and Scotland. On Portuguese side were only French and the Pope. Portuguese forces (with new recruits) numbered only 16,000 infantry, 3,000 cavalry and 17 cannons. 3,000 of these were stationed in Brazil and Africa. Fortunately, Ferdinand decided to concentrate all his forces on France and Portuguese army was free to siege Spanish cities at will. By the end of war Portuguese controlled Gibraltar, Estramadura, Castille, Murcia, Canary Islands and The Balears. In the end, Ferdinand was not able to refuse Portuguese demands, since the risk of the rebellion would be too high. French and Romans continued the war.

    As a result of this war Portuguese received Gibraltar, Canary Islands and the remains of the Spanish treasury.

    Meanwhile, elsewhere in the world, Turks annexed Mamelukes and Moldova, but faced a collation war, attacked by Russian, Austrian and Spanish alliances. It ended up ceding Moldova to Poland, Aleppo to Persia, Bosnia to Wurtemburg and Serbia to Austria. French continued to fight Spanish until 1509, when they ceded Champaign and Picardie, mainly because of the high war fatigue, as they themselves held several Spanish provinces under control. Papal states managed to quit the war much earlier, getting Messina.

    After the war Portuguese colonial empire continued to expand. By 1512 Portuguese had most of Brazil, South Africa and had established several trading posts in Caribbean. Their control of the island of Mahe provided them with a base for an attack on India. The King managed to repay his debt to Italian bankers and his insistence on colonial expansion began to pay off. As the first wave of colonization began to die off, Portugal emerged as a leading colonial power, ready to defend itself against any foe if needed.
    Last edited by nalivayko; 05-06-2001 at 22:53.

  2. #2
    Aerandir Eärfalas Vulture's Avatar
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    Nice work there keeping the Spanish at bay
    Keep it going mate
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  3. #3
    Althistorian das's Avatar

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    And some screenshots coming up, I guess...

    Nice one! I think that you will have nice Colonial Empire! Spaniards will expand slower without their shipyards! While you will be able to build giant-size fleets! Will you annex Spain? Or you will annex Incas and Aztecs first? I can't wait until some screen shots.
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  4. #4
    Lurk-o-matic 2000 Jon Young's Avatar

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    Ah, Muchachos, these portuguese have the Cojones larger than than the bells of Madrid Cathedral!
    I must admit I love the thought of the spanish being deprived of their empire. Serves them right for building such unreasonably large fortifications

  5. #5
    Thanks for stopping by and dropping a line

    VultureGGF, I think it's quite easy to beat Spanish early on if you attack from the south - their weakest spot is Estramadura. It doesn't have any fortifications and Spaniards are very attached to it. I found it when I was playing Granada, and this info is quite useful when I am playing Portuguese.

    das, I do not think I want to annex anybody in the game... yet. Aztecs and Incas are on the list, but my primary goal is Portuguese domination of India.

    Jon Young,

    And, of course, screenshots are coming as soon as I get back to my workplace.




  6. #6
    Screenshots for Part I.

    EDIT: screenshot links removed - the website no longer exists
    Last edited by nalivayko; 28-01-2004 at 15:34.

  7. #7
    The Colonial Land Grab

    In September of 1515 Turkey once again surprised the Christendom by annexing Georgia. These news, however, were soon forgotten in the light of the new developments in Mediterranean. In November of 1516, the war that started off as a peasant rebellion in Papal Messina flamed a liberation movement in all Sicily. Soon, the entire island claimed its independence from Spanish and Roman rule.

    In February of 1516 The Union of Hansa (England, Poland-Lithuania, Hanover, Pommerania and Teutonic Order – so called English alliance) declared war on Spain. The only developments of this war that were noticed by Portuguese were the temporary conquest of Estramadura by 2,000 English and the removal of 40,000-strong Spanish army from Portugal’s border in Iberia.

    In October of 1518 the teachings of M. Luther sent whole of Europe in flames. Bohemia became the first country to turn Protestant, breaking its alliance with Austria and Hungary. A year later Carlos of Spain became the emperor of Holy Roman Empire. Although he promised to put the interests of Catholic World before those of Spain, the majority of the Christians, including Pope, conspired against him.

    In March of 1520 Suleyman the Magnificent delivered a crushing blow to Venetian republic, forcing it to cede The Cyclades, Istria and Illyria. A month later Pope decided to throw his support to Madrid after all and declared war on Poland, supported by all members of French alliance, including Portugal. As a sign of good will, he signed a Treaty of Tordesillas, giving Spaniards the control of the New World west of Azores Islands. However, Portuguese showed no intentions of abiding to the treaty and pushed even further in the jungles of the Amazon.

    First Portuguese-English War 1520-1531

    Being a part of a larger European conflict, this war was the first armed conflict between Europeans in the New World. At first, Portuguese decided against attacking England, not too eager to worsen relations between two countries. English, however, thought differently and soon enough sent 12,000 men to occupy defenseless Canary Islands. The occupation lasted several years until Papal army drove English off the islands.

    In turn, Portuguese sent two expeditions to Massachusetts. First failed immediately, as 4 pirate warships sank Portuguese transport. A second one was a success; English trading post burned with no losses from Portugal’s side. In September of 1531, eleven years after the start of the war, English finally agreed to a white peace.

    Meanwhile, Portuguese continued to expand their trading empire. The port of Lisbon began to receive goods from all over the world – sugar, coffee and tobacco from Americas, slaves and ivory from Africa and chinaware and spices from India and Arabia.
    Portuguese trading posts in India covered entire southern part of the subcontinent, while in Caribbean Portugal entered in a land grab race with Spain.

    The latter was not having a good time in Europe, already forced to seize Friesen to Poland, thus allowing the latter to become the Elector of the Empire. King Manuel saw an opportunity, but did not want to appear a ruthless conqueror in the eyes of the Pope and the monarchs of Europe. Thus, he invented a crusade against infidel Persians, who by allying themselves with Spain allowed Portugal to bring the latter in the war without declaring one.

    Third Portuguese – Spanish War 1521-1524.

    All Persian allies honored their obligations to the alliance, which couldn’t be said about Portuguese allies. Only Navarra and Rome supported Portugal in its war with Spain.
    Later on, France and the rest of allies were re-admitted to the alliance, but the leadership had passed from the French King to the Pope, who himself was ready to do anything to keep the Spanish away from Italy.

    At the beginning of the war Portuguese army numbered 32,000 infantry, 980 knights and 28 cannons. For a small army it performed brilliantly… as always, but not without flaws. In South America it took 6,000 Portuguese two years and five bloody battles to drive 2,000 Spaniards off Capetonas. A year after the war Manuel died, which did not help morale of the soldiers at all. His son, Juan III was an average ruler, but capable of appointing the right people to the right post. Fourteen months after the death of his predecessor he appointed Pacheco his minister, thus increasing efficiency of military research, economy and diplomatic corps.

    The campaign in South America was an unfortunate, even though successful example on how not to do things. In Caribbean things went better, and by the end of the war Portuguese controlled Tortuga, Dominica, Antigua, St. Thomas and burned trading post in Buharana, which they replaced with their own. In Spain they seized the provinces of Estramadura, Toledo, Sierra-Nevada and Murcia. Finally, after two unsuccessful assault on Madrid, Castile surrended to Portugal. The remaining Portuguese cavalry were sacrificed to keep Spanish army in Estramadura from marching to relieve Madrid.

    In October of 1523 Navarra made peace with Spain, getting Gerona and Rousillion.

    Portugal made peace four months later in the city of Madrid. The terms of Madrid Treaty of 1524 were as follows: Tortuga (3 level colony) and Capetonas (3 level colony) as well as 250,000 were to be given to Portuguese, who in turn swore not to attack Spain and her allies during the period of the next five years. The significance of the gains was appreciated only few years after as the colonies of Capetonas and Tortuga had quickly grown into cities, providing Portuguese with the first recruitment centers in America. 250,000 ducats did not hurt either, providing the country with necessary cash to send settlers abroad.

    For Spain, the peace secured its southern frontier and allowed the country to concentrate on the war in Netherlands, where four major players of Europe - Spain, France, England and Poland - were deciding the future of Burgundian heritage.

    In the following years Portuguese continued its colonization effort. In South America they established the common frontier with Incas and built trading posts in the south of the continent. In Mexico Portuguese established several trading posts along the border of Aztec empire. In the east Portuguese explorers reached the island of Java and built a first colony in India. In Africa Portugal expanded its slave trade operations – the demand for slaves increased with the growth of coffee, sugar and tobacco plantations in Brazil.

    Elsewhere in the world: Spanish client Cologne attacked Hessen and was quickly annexed by this promising German power. Kazan’ was annexed by Russians and Suleyman managed to conquer the Knights of Rhodes. Denmark, left out of Russian alliance, allied itself with Sweden and quickly annexed its neighbor. Later, to a great concern of Russians, Denmark joined English-Polish alliance.

    EDIT: screenshot links removed - the website no longer exists
    Last edited by nalivayko; 28-01-2004 at 15:34.

  8. #8
    First Lieutenant dudmont's Avatar
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    Nice start. Taking Andalusia is good way to hurt Spain. India is where it's at. Playing my own IGC Por game, I've yet to fight, but for me it's still quite early. Good luck and good colonizing.


  9. #9
    Althistorian das's Avatar

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    Nice one!

    Portugal will expand farther, I think. I guess you should annex Aztecs, they had cities, and this will help in farther expansion. Maybe, you should unite all India under Great Potruguese Empire?
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  10. #10
    Thank you mates, you're all absolutely right. Inida should be ours and as for Americas... Aztecs would be annexed in a due course, but for now I have my eyes set on Incas. The conquest of this empire would make Portuguese the masters of South America. Can't resist a temptation. Of course, I'll have to lay low for awhile after that - the bad boy might be too high to bear.

  11. #11
    Althistorian das's Avatar

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    Okay. Its for you to chose about it.

    But Aztecs will be annexed by Spain!
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  12. #12
    Second Lieutenant SimonM's Avatar

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    Originally posted by nalivayko
    Colonial Land GrabSouth America in 1524
    A nice start... I do find it interesting that you are making such gains in the Spanish zone (Central America and such)... Aren't the Spanish interested in extering their rights to sieze these colonies/tradeposts?

    Cheers!
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  13. #13
    A nice start... I do find it interesting that you are making such gains in the Spanish zone (Central America and such)... Aren't the Spanish interested in extering their rights to sieze these colonies/tradeposts?
    They are. Already they took one of my TP's in South America (I burned it in a next war and built another one) and one in Jalisco. I pray for a Council of Trent to cancel this bs treaty - it hurts me more than Spanish

    das, I think conquering Aztecs is overrated Inca empire with 4 golden mines is much more attractive. And for now Spanish simply lack manpower in the New World to get to Aztecs before me. Again, it is still an option, but a less urgent one. You'll see from my next installment.

  14. #14
    The Conquest of Paradise

    By 1531 Portuguese control of the High Seas was unprecedented. Their ships crossed the Atlantic and Indian Oceans on a regular basis to trade, transport troops or simply to explore the unknown. The most common routes were: Lisbon-The Canary Island-Capo Verde-Recife-Tortuga to Americas and Lisbon-The Canary Islands-Capo Verde-Fernando Po-Table-Mahe-Cochin to India. However, the price of the success was high. By 1530’s the kingdom lost 19 ships, mostly warships, to the sea. Some were lost in storms, some were shipwrecked on uncharted reefs, and some simply did not find their way home.

    Portuguese King was determined to change the situation by establishing more colonies with seaports, building new ships and researching new technologies. By 1532 Portuguese naval technology level was 6. The military land technology research was not without funding either. It reached the same level in 1530. In infrastructure and trade Portuguese were at comfortable 4th level.

    The exploration on land continued as well and in 1535 Portuguese discovered Panama. Further south, the same brave conquistador Martim de Sousa established a common border with Inca empire. Portuguese were clearly impressed with a grander of Indian civilization and by the amount of gold, which, if rumors were true, Incas possessed.

    In 1536 Martim prepared his forces for the conquest of Incas. He had 6,900 musketeers and 567 knights on their northern frontier and 8743 musketeers and 961 knights in the south. The declaration of war was delivered before the attack to show that soldiers of God fight fair even with Indian pagans.

    First Portuguese-Inca War 1535-1539

    At first Portuguese forces easily defeated all opposition to their advance. The southern army occupied two Indian provinces, but had to stop because of the lack of maps. De Sousa continued his advance south, defeating all Indian armies along the way and trying to reach Inca capital to learn more of the land ahead. However, he met his match in a military genius of Chalcuchim. The latter led several assaults on Portuguese camp, but they were all repulsed with heavy losses. The fortune smiled upon him when Martim decided to lead a reconnaissance raid with all his remaining cavalry (300 knights). The party moved recklessly south, where they were ambushed by 30,000 Inca warriors. The conquistador and all his comrades-in-arms were all killed in one fateful encounter. Without the leadership of de Sousa the army was helpless against the hordes of Indians. A month later Chalcuchim 40,000-strong army annihilated all 5,000 remaining Portuguese.

    Portugal was not ready to give up the fight jus yet. The governor of Tortuga was ordered to recruit 10,000 men along colonists and Indians and arm them for another expedition. Sadly, their fate was no better than the fate of the army of de Sousa.

    Peace had to be made and although Incas did cede two provinces - Guayaquil and Cajamarca, they were the real victors. Portuguese losses in this war were higher than in all the wars with Spain altogether. Fortunately, this time they were able to recover more quickly.

    Elsewhere, Persia abandoned Spanish alliance and allied with Crimea, which soon initiated a war on Carlos I, mainly as a form of protest against his successes as Austrian sovereign. In Germany, Palatinate annexed Kleves and in the east Russians delivered a coup-de-grace to the Golden Horde and Suleyman of Turkey scored yet another victory by forcing Wurtemburg to cede Bosnia. English surprised everybody by taking Nice from Savoy and turning Protestant first and Reformed later. To the Portuguese it seemed as the Protestant heresy was going to take over in the North, but they were more worried about their Catholic neighbor – the kingdom of Spain.

    Fourth Portuguese-Spanish War 1544-45

    In December of 1544 Portuguese fears of another war with Spain were realized. This time it was France that started the war. All French allies – Papal States, Genoa, Sicily, Navarra and Portugal joined in. Spanish alliance at the time consisted of Spain, Scotland, Lorraine, Palatinate and Naples.

    This war with Spain took completely different course than the ones in the past. To begin with, Carlos I of Spain did his homework and at the start of the military activities he had more than 90,000 men ready to attack Portugal. Divided in two armies of 45,000 each, Spanish began their march on Andalusia, while Portuguese army of 18,000 desperately tried to avoid a confrontation. Portuguese total forces numbered 50,000 musketeers and pikemen, 3,000 cavalry and 54 cannons, but most of them were located in South America and India.

    In March of 1545 Spanish army sacked the city of Cadiz. Portuguese retaliated by taking control of Asturias and burning the last remaining Spanish trading posts in South America. It was the very same post that Spanish occupied under terms of the Treaty of Tordesillas. The Spanish armies made 180 degrees turn and marched on Asturias. Portuguese army had it rough, trying to get out of that mountainous region with cannons intact, but the sacrifice of 1,000 pikemen slowed Spanish armies in Leon. In April the news came that all the fighting had been for nothing, as French King quickly agreed to pay Spanish 169,000 ducats to end the war.

    For the first time in fifty years Portuguese failed to claim a victory against Spanish. The only consolation to the King was the fact that Spaniards lost more than 40,000 men due to attrition in the mountains of southern Spain.

    Taking an advantage of an early peace with Spain, King Juan III sent an envoy to the emperor of the Incas, declaring that Portugal can longer tolerate the presence of pagan empire in South America and that the state of war therefore exists between the kingdom of Portugal and Inca empire. This time Portuguese army was led by another conquistador – Mem DaSa (5/4/5/3). He already had done his country an excellent service by completing the exploration of the northern part of South America. This time he would complete the conquest of Incas. The King put under his command 13,000 infantrymen, 2,000 cavalrymen and, more importantly, 10 cannons.

    The Second Portuguese-Inca War

    DaSa began his campaign with the victory over 30,000 Inca warriors. The war was completely different from the first one. Portuguese troops defeated all Indian armies and occupied Cuzco, the capital of Incas. In there they found the maps of the rest of Inca empire, which gave them a chance to complete their conquest.

    More battles followed and out of this bloodshed a new hero was born, a noble named Figuiera. Given a command of 25 knights, he set out to conquer undefended Inca provinces. In Lima he was ambushed by 3,000 braves, but instead of fleeing he charged the enemy and won an incredible victory, outnumbered as he was 120 to 1. However, this victory paled in the comparison with his next feat, when he faced 22,000 retreating Indian army and attacked them in the rear, loosing ten men, but making Incas to throw their weapons and flee the battlefield. This time Portuguese were outnumbered 880 to 1, but still carried the day under the leadership of Figuiera. Figuiera himself attributed all his victories to God and Virgin Mary, which in no way lessened his chances with women for years to come.

    In November of 1546, a month after “The Miracle of Lima” the empire of Incas collapsed and was joined to Portuguese colonial empire. 25,000 Incas agreed to join Portuguese army, eager to become half-gods with lightnings themselves. The other benefits of the conquest, besides the ownership of the empire itself, included the flow of gold from four mines and the increase in stability.

    DaSa’s work in South America was not over yet. During the next two years he exploited the remaining available provinces and by 1550 Portuguese were the sole masters of the continent.

    Meanwhile in Europe, Suleyman continued his string of successes with annexation of Ragusa and conquest of Cypress. In India Cochin became a city with population of 6,000 and soon enough a flourishing trade center of India. Portuguese King made a point of fortifying the city well and later an army of 20,000 was recruited to govern Portuguese interests in that part of the world.

    The fortification process did not stop at that. By 1550 all Portuguese provinces in Europe and New World, save newly conquered Inca territory, possessed small fortresses.

    Next item on King’s agenda was the build up of Portuguese navy. Not that it had to fear Spanish, as their primary fleet was badly outnumbered and defeated by French navy. Still, the growing maritime power of Western European states made far-flung Portuguese colonial empire more vulnerable to invasion. If Portuguese were to hold their conquests they needed to develop all the colonies into cities with fortress and have a large enough navy to protect the remaining trading posts.

    DaSa’s exploration of Mexico led to another conflict with Spaniards and in 1550 they seized the trading post of Jalisco. This, however, did not stop Portuguese advance north and soon their trading posts and colonies covered all the land between the Cape Horn and the empire of Aztecs. The paradise was conquered, but there were more targets available and the difficult task of protecting the empire stopped Portuguese from relaxing and ripping the fruits of their victories.
    Last edited by nalivayko; 05-06-2001 at 22:56.

  15. #15
    Screens for Part III

    EDIT: screenshot links removed - the website no longer exists
    Last edited by nalivayko; 28-01-2004 at 15:40.

  16. #16
    Emperatore Daciae Cornelius's Avatar

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    You have a nice small country

    Good strategy on fighting Spain, I also implemented it, but much later and because I was outraged when they took possesion of two, hardly conquered, former Inca provinces. As a result I felt obliged to DoW Spain and reclaim this territories for Portugal.

    Btw, how do you keep Spanish conquistadors from seizing your TPs and unfortified colonies?
    Cornelius

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  17. #17
    Well I'll de damned. There I am sitting there on Sunday morning thinking "I'll just have a go as Portugal, see if I can take Andalusia off the Spanish and block their expansion overseas, might make a good AAR..." and now Nalivayko's gone and beaten me to it.

    And I was right, it does make a damn fine AAR. Way to go in South America...
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  18. #18
    Emperatore Daciae Cornelius's Avatar

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    Originally posted by Ariel
    Well I'll de damned. There I am sitting there on Sunday morning thinking "I'll just have a go as Portugal, see if I can take Andalusia off the Spanish and block their expansion overseas, might make a good AAR..." and now Nalivayko's gone and beaten me to it.
    You can take Navarra and try the same
    It's hard, but not impossible.
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    Persia AAR: 1492-1584 (EU1) written April 25 - June 27, 2001

  19. #19
    Lurk-o-matic 2000 Jon Young's Avatar

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    Heh. Bang goes south america. Wierdest thing, The Incas held out in my most recent game. I mean REALLY held out. As in, 1670's, when the english arrived, they were still pretty much intact. Go figure...

  20. #20
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    in my games as portugal, i never even thought of DOW'ing spain and taking their shipyard from them. nice blitz strategy from the start there. sounds like you've really got spain in a world of hurt.

    what are you going to do once your colonial dynamism runs out? i think the last explorer/conquisatdors arrive in the early 1600's. after that, colonial dynamism fades too i think. you plan on annexing spain at some point? that would be an interesting reversal of history.

    Heh. Bang goes south america. Wierdest thing, The Incas held out in my most recent game. I mean REALLY held out. As in, 1670's, when the english arrived, they were still pretty much intact. Go figure...
    i had that happen to me a few times too. the aztecs usually fall pretty quickly, but for some reason, the incas always hold out a fair bit longer.

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