AGC/EEP: British Isles & France

Toio · Oct 10, 2008

@mandead

I agree with your numbers for Charles VII

i disagree with your Loius XIand it should be

name = "Louis XI"
DIP = 5 #was 6
ADM = 8 #was 7
MIL = 5

I think he did a great job ADM but not in the DIP area

on Charles VIII , i think they need to be
name = "Charles VIII"
DIP = 5
ADM = 5 #was 7
MIL = 9
He could not administer his italian "allies" and they revolted to turn on him at fornovo.

and Francis I
name = "François Ier"
DIP = 8 #was 5
ADM = 5 # was 8
MIL = 9
He did arrange his freedom from prison by diplomatic means, be it a peace agreement

On nicknames I want them retained as it is. it's less confusing , example like 2 x Charles VII regardless if they are from different states or not

Crookback · Oct 10, 2008

Toio said:
@mandead

I agree with your numbers for Charles VII

i disagree with your Loius XIand it should be

name = "Louis XI"
DIP = 5 #was 6
ADM = 8 #was 7
MIL = 5

I think he did a great job ADM but not in the DIP area

on Charles VIII , i think they need to be
name = "Charles VIII"
DIP = 5
ADM = 5 #was 7
MIL = 9
He could not administer his italian "allies" and they revolted to turn on him at fornovo.

and Francis I
name = "François Ier"
DIP = 8 #was 5
ADM = 5 # was 8
MIL = 9
He did arrange his freedom from prison by diplomatic means, be it a peace agreement

On nicknames I want them retained as it is. it's less confusing , example like 2 x Charles VII regardless if they are from different states or not

I really don't understand why you'd wish to lower Louis XI's DIP stat - my point was that it - I felt - needed raising. I see no reason to lower it, especially to a 5. Edward IV has 5/5/7 and then 6/6/7 - he was not the diplomat Louis was. Charles the Bold (their contemporary) is a special case, he has 2 DIP because of everyone hating him, and usually being at war with him. Ditto for Richard III - well, the first part anyway.

Regarding Charles VIII and Francis I, I don't know enough about their reigns to make an objective point on the matter. I know far more of Charles VII and Louis XI, which is why I proposed changing their stats, so I can't really argue with you here.

Finally, regarding nicknames - I'm afraid I disagree. It's not about flavour, it's about convention & consistency. The AGCEEP does not tend to go with nicknames, or we could add most of the nicknames in the "remark" section of the monarch files. I say we remove them, but of course we must wait to see what others think. I understand your reasons, but I do not see them as valid or fitting the rest of the mod.

Garbon · Oct 10, 2008

mandead said:
Finally, regarding nicknames - I'm afraid I disagree. It's not about flavour, it's about convention & consistency. The AGCEEP does not tend to go with nicknames, or we could add most of the nicknames in the "remark" section of the monarch files. I say we remove them, but of course we must wait to see what others think. I understand your reasons, but I do not see them as valid or fitting the rest of the mod.

I was against nicknames but was soundly defeated...however, now that the balance on the HC has shifted.

Crookback · Oct 10, 2008

Garbon said:
I was against nicknames but was soundly defeated...however, now that the balance on the HC has shifted.

:rofl:

I am against them on principle of them being debatable and in some cases numerous. Moreover, it clutters the screen somewhat depending on the length of the name. Personally, I say we go with a straight, simple monarch name & regnal number and leave nicknames to the "remark" section.

Just to clarify, Garbon, what do you think 4/6/6 for Ch. VII?

Toio · Oct 10, 2008

Garbon said:
I was against nicknames but was soundly defeated...however, now that the balance on the HC has shifted.

Diplomacy at work

I am always the odd one out

Toio · Oct 10, 2008

@ mandead

was'nt it Plillippe III le bon ( the good)

who is phillippe the VII le bon .......or is this a typo.

ANy way..........do what the consensus says , but my preference is for

Philippe Le Bon

Garbon · Oct 10, 2008

mandead said:
:rofl:
I am against them on principle of them being debatable and in some cases numerous. Moreover, it clutters the screen somewhat depending on the length of the name. Personally, I say we go with a straight, simple monarch name & regnal number and leave nicknames to the "remark" section.

Agreed. Fodoron already did the same to the monarchs of Granada a while back (when I was still a fan of nicknames) on the basis that many monarchs had many (depending on your point of view) and in many cases didn't acquire that nickname until death. So yeah, I'm against them in the actual name.

mandead said:
Just to clarify, Garbon, what do you think 4/6/6 for Ch. VII?

I'm fine as long as it doesn't alter the balance of the HYW. If it does leaders need to be added (that successfully compensate) or the value needs to stay the same.

Of course, we might be in for some input from the French forum.

Crookback · Oct 10, 2008

Toio said:
@ mandead

was'nt it Plillippe III le bon ( the good)

who is phillippe the VII le bon .......or is this a typo.

ANy way..........do what the consensus says , but my preference is for

Philippe Le Bon

Philippe III of Burgundy, but he would have been Philippe VII of France.

@ Garbon - agreed, but let's hope we don't encounter too much nationalism there...

Toio · Oct 10, 2008

mandead said:
Philippe III of Burgundy, but he would have been Philippe VII of France.

@ Garbon - agreed, but let's hope we don't encounter too much nationalism there...

no nationalism problems here, but i am already confused, so phillippe III of burgundy is Phillippe VII of France. confusing or what!

At least with Le Bon attached to his name I had a chance to match these guys

I am in deep trouble with all the Henry's, Charles and Edwards that are with FRA, ENG, BUR etc etc

Anyway, As i stated , if I am outvote , what can i do

Crookback · Oct 10, 2008

Toio said:
no nationalism problems here, but i am already confused, so phillippe III of burgundy is Phillippe VII of France. confusing or what!

At least with Le Bon attached to his name I had a chance to match these guys

I am in deep trouble with all the Henry's, Charles and Edwards that are with FRA, ENG, BUR etc etc

Anyway, As i stated , if I am outvote , what can i do

:rofl:

No, he isn't Philippe VII of France, but he would have been had he been crowned king of France. The previous King Philippe was VI, the first Valois IIRC. Philippe III (le Bon) would not have been Philippe III of France, because there'd already been one, hadn't there?

The English monarchs aren't too difficult to understand if you know a bit about them - they're all pretty different, TBH.

And hell, look at France - ten Charles' and eighteen Louis'

(not including pretenders!)

And it is a democracy; we can all vote - all are taken into account, I simply wish to hear what Yoda & others think.

Crookback · Oct 10, 2008

French monarch names & missing Regent (?)

Regarding the proposed namechanges, this event needs editing:

Code:

#(1461-1483) The Throne of France
event = {
	id = 170313
	trigger = {
		event = 137074 #BUR: The Throne of France
		NOT = { event = 361028 } #DAU: The Consecration of Charles VII
	}
	random = no
	country = FRA
	name = "EVENTNAME170313" #The Throne of France
	desc = "EVENTHIST170313"

	date = { day = 22 month = july year = 1461 }
	offset = 1
	deathdate = { day = 28 month = august year = 1483 }

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME170313A" #Long Live the King!
		command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 049501 } #Charles VII
		command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 049502 } #Louis XI
		command = { type = wakemonarch which = 049535 } #Philippe VII [COLOR=Red]le Bon[/COLOR] °
		command = { type = wakemonarch which = 049536 } #Charles VII [COLOR=Red]le Teméraire[/COLOR] °
		command = { type = wakemonarch which = 049537 } #Louis XI [COLOR=Lime]°[/COLOR]
	}
}

#-#With the death of the Dauphin Charles, neither his son Louis nor the King of England was in a position to impose their rights on the Duke of Burgundy, who had controlled the government of the Kingdom for many decades already. Ensured of the support of the Parliament of Paris and being joined by many former Armagnac partisans after the failure of the cause of the Dauphin, the road towards the throne was now open. Admittedly his legitimacy was contestable, and many were likely to be agitated, but nobody had the authority to oppose him...

Reading the event text, am I right to assume that this Louis XI is the historical one, only becoming king later, or is he in fact a fantasy monarch? (a son of Charles the Bold, for example)

I just need to be sure, so as whether he needs a * or not. He has the same deathdate, but different stats, so I wasn't sure...

He is refered to as the spider king in monarchs.FRA though, so I guess he is the real Louis XI?

If so...

Code:

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 049537 }
	startdate = {
		day = 5
		month = january
		year = 1477
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 29
		month = august
		year = 1483
	}
	name = "Louis XI [COLOR=Lime]°[/COLOR]"
	DIP = 5
	ADM = 6
	MIL = 5
	dormant = yes
	remark = "L'Universelle aragne (The spider King)"
}

Finally, are the lowered stats intentional? (6/7/5 --> 5/6/5)

Also, I think this is needed, but because the whole HYW sequence is so complex, I dunno if any other events need editing...

Code:

#(1422) The Death of Charles VI (Duke Philip has refused to support King Henry V)
event = {
	id = 170293
	trigger = {
		event = 137015 #BUR: The Assassination of Jean the Fearless
		OR = {
			event = 164164 #ENG: Refusal of English Ambitions
			NOT = { event = 164163 } #ENG: Negotiations at Troyes
		}
		OR = {
			control = { province = 385 data = BUR } #Ile de France
			owned = { province = 385 data = BUR } #Ile de France
			vassal = { country = BUR country = FRA }
		}
	}
	random = no
	country = FRA
	name = "EVENTNAME170293" #The Death of Charles VI
	desc = "EVENTHIST170293"

	date = { day = 21 month = october year = 1422 }

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME170293A" #Long Live the Regent Philip!
		[COLOR=Lime]command = { type = wakemonarch which = 027052 } #Philippe de Bourgogne (Charles VII) °[/COLOR]
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 10000 }
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 10000 }
		command = { type = trigger which = 137060 } #BUR: The Estate of Charles VI
	}
}

Code:

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 049544 }
	startdate = {
		day = 21
		month = october
		year = 1422
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 17
		month = july
		year = 1429
	}
	name = "Philippe de Bourgogne (Charles VII) °"
	DIP = 8
	ADM = 8
	MIL = 8
	dormant = yes
	remark = "Regent for Charles VII"
}

I'm by no means an expert on the French side of the war, so I used Charles' historical coronation as the date at which he overthrows Philippe's regency. Can anyone suggest a better date?

And finally, on the subject of removing nicknames...

monarchs.BUR:

Code:

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 027000 }
	startdate = {
		year = 1404
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 10
		month = september
		year = 1443
	}
	name = "Jean Ier [COLOR=Red]sans Peur[/COLOR]"
	DIP = 9
	ADM = 5
	MIL = 8
	dormant = no
}

Code:

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 027001 }
	startdate = {
		day = 10
		month = september
		year = 1419
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 15
		month = june
		year = 1467
	}
	name = "Philippe III [COLOR=Red]le Bon[/COLOR]"
	DIP = 8
	ADM = 8
	MIL = 8
	dormant = yes
}

Code:

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 027002 }
	startdate = {
		day = 10
		month = september
		year = 1443
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 15
		month = june
		year = 1467
	}
	name = "Philippe III [COLOR=Red]le Bon[/COLOR]"
	DIP = 8
	ADM = 8
	MIL = 8
	dormant = no
}

Code:

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 027003 }
	startdate = {
		day = 15
		month = june
		year = 1467
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 5
		month = january
		year = 1477
	}
	name = "Charles Ier [COLOR=Red]le Teméraire[/COLOR]"
	DIP = 2
	ADM = 5
	MIL = 7
	dormant = no
	remark = "Dies on historical date."
}

Code:

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 027005 }
	startdate = {
		day = 27
		month = march
		year = 1482
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1506
	}
	name = "Philippe IV [COLOR=Red]le Beau[/COLOR]"
	DIP = 5
	ADM = 6
	MIL = 4
	dormant = no
}

Code:

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 027019 }
	startdate = {
		year = 1560
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1598
	}
	name = "Jean II [COLOR=Red]Roi de Lune[/COLOR] *"
	DIP = 5
	ADM = 7
	MIL = 8
	dormant = yes
}

Code:

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 027016 }
	startdate = {
		year = 1482
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1506
	}
	name = "Charles[COLOR=Red], Dauphin de France [/COLOR][COLOR=Yellow]d'Valois[/COLOR] °"
	DIP = 3
	ADM = 3
	MIL = 3
	dormant = yes
	remark = "merely a boy"
}

Code:

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 027027 }
	startdate = {
		day = 27
		month = march
		year = 1482
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 28
		month = february
		year = 1508
	}
	name = "Philippe IV [COLOR=Red]le Noble[/COLOR] °"
	DIP = 3
	ADM = 6
	MIL = 5
	dormant = yes
	remark = "Philipp der Edelmütige"
}

Code:

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 027029 }
	startdate = {
		day = 5
		month = march
		year = 1544
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 26
		month = february
		year = 1556
	}
	name = "Frédéric Ier [COLOR=Red]le Sage[/COLOR] *"
	DIP = 4
	ADM = 3
	MIL = 3
	dormant = yes
	remark = "Friedrich II der Weise"
}

Code:

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 027031 }
	startdate = {
		day = 12
		month = february
		year = 1559
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 26
		month = october
		year = 1576
	}
	name = "Frédéric II [COLOR=Red]le Pieux[/COLOR] *"
	DIP = 7
	ADM = 3
	MIL = 3
	dormant = yes
	remark = "Friedrich III der Fromme"
}

Code:

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 027033 }
	startdate = {
		day = 22
		month = october
		year = 1583
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 19
		month = september
		year = 1610
	}
	name = "Frédéric III [COLOR=Red]le Droit[/COLOR] *"
	DIP = 7
	ADM = 3
	MIL = 5
	dormant = yes
	remark = "Friedrich IV der Aufrechte"
}

Code:

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 027034 }
	startdate = {
		day = 19
		month = september
		year = 1610
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 25
		month = february
		year = 1623
	}
	name = "Frédéric IV [COLOR=Red]le Roi d'Hiver[/COLOR] *"
	DIP = 5
	ADM = 4
	MIL = 6
	dormant = yes
	remark = "Friedrich V der Winterkönig"
}

Code:

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 027039 }
	startdate = {
		day = 27
		month = march
		year = 1482
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 15
		month = january
		year = 1521
	}
	name = "Jean II [COLOR=Red]le Pieux[/COLOR] °"
	DIP = 7
	ADM = 4
	MIL = 6
	dormant = yes
	remark = "Johann II der Fromme"
}

Code:

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 027040 }
	startdate = {
		day = 15
		month = january
		year = 1521
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 6
		month = february
		year = 1539
	}
	name = "Jean III [COLOR=Red]le Paisible[/COLOR] *"
	DIP = 6
	ADM = 6
	MIL = 6
	dormant = yes
	remark = "Johann III der Friedliche"
}

Code:

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 027041 }
	startdate = {
		day = 6
		month = february
		year = 1539
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 5
		month = january
		year = 1592
	}
	name = "Guillaume Ier [COLOR=Red]le Riche[/COLOR] *"
	DIP = 3
	MIL = 4
	ADM = 7
	dormant = yes
	remark = "Wilhelm V der Reiche"
}

Code:

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 027042 }
	startdate = {
		day = 5
		month = january
		year = 1592
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 25
		month = march
		year = 1609
	}
	name = "Jean Guillaume [COLOR=Red]le Bon[/COLOR] *"
	DIP = 4
	ADM = 1
	MIL = 2
	dormant = yes
	remark = "Johann Wilhelm der Gute"
}

leaders.BUR

Code:

historicalleader = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 027311 }
	category = monarch
	name = "Jean II [COLOR=Red]le Pieux[/COLOR]"
	startdate = {
		year = 1490
	}
	deathdate = {
		year = 1521
	}
	rank = 0
	movement = 3
	fire = 3
	shock = 2
	siege = 0
	dormant = yes
	remark = "alternative Mary's husband, Johann II der Fromme, Duke of Kleve and Mark"
}

Anazagar · Oct 10, 2008

Yes that Louis is the historical Louis. Methinks that his lowered stats may come from the fact that he has less experience in running teh kingdom and his situation as a ruler is more difficult.

Crookback · Oct 10, 2008

Anazagar said:
Yes that Louis is the historical Louis. Methinks that his lowered stats may come from the fact that he has less experience in running teh kingdom and his situation as a ruler is more difficult.

Yeah, that's what I thought. Thank you.

Amended accordingly!

unmerged(40707) · Oct 10, 2008

At least, nicknames could be "saved" as extra information in comments or remark and not just erased.

About 049537, Loui XI, he is the "right" monarch for France at this time but shortened => I disagree with the added "°" and stats are intentional. He can't be the same monarch he historically was (just as Anazagar said).
Check if some events raise Louis XI's stats (IIRC, reforms?). This could explain why he starts with "lowered" ones.

But I agree it is a problem for Louis XVII and "°" is better than "*". He never ruled but he is not "fictional" (could be a mistake of mine).

027016 => "Charles de Valois °" (and in remark: "Dauphin of France - merely a boy")

And about Toio, maybe he could join the HC in order to see his vote "counting"?

Crookback · Oct 10, 2008

YodaMaster said:
At least, nicknames could be "saved" as extra information in comments or remark and not just erased.

Well, I'm not against that, I was just 'correcting' the actual names. If you wish to have their nicknames in the remark section, then that is fine with me.

YodaMaster said:
About 049537, Loui XI, he is the "right" monarch for France at this time but shortened => I disagree with the added "°" and stats are intentional. He can't be the same monarch he historically was (just as Anazagar said).

I realise this, but the ° represents the fact he is not the vanilla, historical timeline version of Louis XI - he succeeds not his father but Charles the Bold as King of France, and his reign is much shorter - not to mention his lower stats - that is why I suggested the ° - because he is not the standard historical choice.

YodaMaster said:
But I agree it is a problem for Louis XVII and "°" is better than "*". He never ruled but he is not "fictional" (could be a mistake of mine).

Yes, definitely ° because Louis XVII existed and was de jure king.

YodaMaster said:
027016 => "Charles de Valois °" (and in remark: "Dauphin of France - merely a boy")

Agreed.

unmerged(40707) · Oct 10, 2008

About "alternate" Louis XI, history just goes back on track (even if the road was not the historical one), this is the real Louis XI who ruled in France. ° is for real people that could have ruled but never did in historical existence of the country. When we use several occurrences of the same historical monarch, we don't add extra symbol (even if we can have differences in the stats of this monarch because of the context). See other monarchs in monarchs.fra and especially Louis XIII with possible different regencies.

Crookback · Oct 10, 2008

I shall have to post a few more changes here later then.

House of York

Code:

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 046047 }
	startdate = {
		day = 17
		month = march
		year = 1490	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 7
		month = september
		year = 1523
	}
	name = "Edward V[COLOR=Red] °[/COLOR]"
	DIP = [COLOR=Yellow]5[/COLOR]
	ADM = [COLOR=Yellow]5[/COLOR]
	MIL = [COLOR=Yellow]7[/COLOR]
	dormant = yes
}

Code:

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 046048 }
	startdate = {
		day = 7
		month = september
		year = 1523
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 28
		month = january
		year = 1547
	}
	name = "Richard III °"
	DIP = [COLOR=Yellow]5[/COLOR]
	ADM = [COLOR=Yellow]4[/COLOR]
	MIL = [COLOR=Yellow]5[/COLOR]
	dormant = yes
}

House of Tudor

Code:

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 046051 }
	startdate = {
		day = 28
		month = january
		year = 1547
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 6
		month = july
		year = 1553
	}
	name = "Edward VI[COLOR=Red] °[/COLOR]"
	DIP = 6
	ADM = 7
	MIL = 4
	dormant = yes
	remark = "Historically, Edward died before declaring his majority..."
}

Code:

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 046052 }
	startdate = {
		day = 10
		month = july
		year = 1553
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 17
		month = november
		year = 1558
	}
	name = "Jane[COLOR=Red] °[/COLOR]"
	DIP = 4
	ADM = 5
	MIL = 3
	dormant = yes
	remark = "De facto Queen of England between the 10th and 19th of July 1553[COLOR=Lime].[/COLOR][COLOR=Red] - executed by Mary's supporters soon after[/COLOR]"
}

House of Stuart

Code:

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 046040 }
	startdate = {
		day = 11
		month = december
		year = 1688
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 28
		month = december
		year = 1694
	}
	name = "Mary II[COLOR=Red] °[/COLOR]"
	DIP = 6
	ADM = 6
	MIL = 5
	dormant = yes
	remark = "Should Mary II reign without her husband William, due to Parliament's refusal to crown him"
}

Code:

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 046041 }
	startdate = {
		day = 28
		month = december
		year = 1694
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 1
		month = august
		year = 1714
	}
	name = "Anne[COLOR=Red] °[/COLOR]"
	DIP = 8
	ADM = 6
	MIL = 7
	dormant = yes
	remark = "Should Anne succeed to the throne earlier than usual, on the death of her elder sister, Mary II"
}

Crookback · Oct 11, 2008

Post #3152 updated (removed all instances of ° from Edward V - if I've missed any, please correct them!), plus upped Beaufort & Gloucester's stats somewhat:

Code:

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 046043 }
	startdate = {
		day = 14
		month = september
		year = 1435
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 6
		month = december
		year = 1437
	}
	name = "Humphrey Plantagenet (Henry VI)"
	DIP = [COLOR=Yellow]6[/COLOR]
	ADM = [COLOR=Yellow]6[/COLOR]
	MIL = [COLOR=Yellow]5[/COLOR]
	dormant = yes
	remark = "Duke of Gloucester. Succeeds Bedford after his death."
}

Code:

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 046037 }
	startdate = {
		day = 1
		month = september
		year = 1422
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 6
		month = december
		year = 1437
	}
	name = "Humphrey Plantagenet (Henry VI)"
	DIP = [COLOR=Yellow]6[/COLOR]
	ADM = [COLOR=Yellow]6[/COLOR]
	MIL = [COLOR=Yellow]5[/COLOR]
	dormant = yes
	remark = "Duke of Gloucester."
}

Code:

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 046007 }
	startdate = {
		day = 1
		month = september
		year = 1422
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 6
		month = december
		year = 1437
	}
	name = "Henry Beaufort (Henry VI) °"
	DIP = [COLOR=Yellow]7[/COLOR]
	ADM = [COLOR=Yellow]4[/COLOR]
	MIL = [COLOR=Yellow]4[/COLOR]
	dormant = yes
	remark = "Bishop of Winchester [COLOR=Lime]& Henry V's uncle.[/COLOR]"
}

This post & the previous one (above) should contain the latest amendments of English monarchs. Please use these versions for betas/submissions. All previous versions (from post #3144 onwards) have been deleted from their original posts so as to avoid confusion.

Thus, AFAIK, everything is ready for submission (given time, of course) from #3144 onward with the exception of any amendments to Charles VII/Louis XI, which are still under discussion here.

Third Angel · Oct 11, 2008

mandead said:

monarchs.BUR:

Code:

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 027000 }
	startdate = {
		year = 1404
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 10
		month = september
		year = 1443
	}
	name = "Jean Ier [COLOR=Red]sans Peur[/COLOR]"
	DIP = 9
	ADM = 5
	MIL = 8
	dormant = no
}

Code:

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 027001 }
	startdate = {
		day = 10
		month = september
		year = 1419
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 15
		month = june
		year = 1467
	}
	name = "Philippe III [COLOR=Red]le Bon[/COLOR]"
	DIP = 8
	ADM = 8
	MIL = 8
	dormant = yes
}

Code:

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 027002 }
	startdate = {
		day = 10
		month = september
		year = 1443
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 15
		month = june
		year = 1467
	}
	name = "Philippe III [COLOR=Red]le Bon[/COLOR]"
	DIP = 8
	ADM = 8
	MIL = 8
	dormant = no
}

Code:

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 027003 }
	startdate = {
		day = 15
		month = june
		year = 1467
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 5
		month = january
		year = 1477
	}
	name = "Charles Ier [COLOR=Red]le Teméraire[/COLOR]"
	DIP = 2
	ADM = 5
	MIL = 7
	dormant = no
	remark = "Dies on historical date."
}

I disagree that we should systemically remove nicknames. This should be done on an individual basis for each monarch.

The nicknames that were used during the monarch's lifetime should certainly be kept or added if absent. That is the case for Jean sans Peur who gained his during the crusade against Nicopolis. I seem to recall that both his immediate successors also wore theirs during their reigns, so they should be kept until evidence is shown that they did not.

Above all, I think that this last sentence should apply as a general rule: no adding or removing without arguments that the nickname was used/not used during the monarch's lifetime.

Crookback · Oct 11, 2008

Third Angel said:
Above all, I think that this last sentence should apply as a general rule: no adding or removing without arguments that the nickname was used/not used during the monarch's lifetime.

That seems sensible, yes.

However, we do have rules of thumb for such things, and I believe the consensus (so far, at least) is to remove them.

AGC/EEP: British Isles & France

Field Marshal

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Sultan d'Afrique

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Field Marshal

Field Marshal

Sultan d'Afrique

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Field Marshal

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emotionally retarded theif

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Just call me Yoda in private!

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Just call me Yoda in private!

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Mad Medievalist

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