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Are Submarines Worthless?

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I'm sorry, but you won't be getting any reports on the SS-6 vs maximised ASW progress - I just can't stand playing any longer when it takes several RL seconds per game hour at maximum speed when I'm doing absolutely nothing but stare at the in-game clock.
I'll start a new campaign as the USA and try submerged warfare in the Pacific while pursuing a Europe First-strategy.
 
Wobbler said:
I'm sorry, but you won't be getting any reports on the SS-6 vs maximised ASW progress - I just can't stand playing any longer when it takes several RL seconds per game hour at maximum speed when I'm doing absolutely nothing but stare at the in-game clock.
I'll start a new campaign as the USA and try submerged warfare in the Pacific while pursuing a Europe First-strategy.
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Too bad about the super-slowdown. I play on an old 0.95 Gigahz AMD, so I know what it's like. Let me know how the USA vs Japan Sub war goes.

I now have Ship Assembly Lines researched, and have a final date for my Naval Construction... my first four Bismarcks will be in the water by the 17th of August, 1941... so allowing time to ORG-up, Sealion is scheduled for mid-September.

My first set of Paratroops and Air Transports has been delivered, one more set on the way.

Rather than sit idle until Spring, I have started edging into Persia with a shoe-string force. Hopefully, India will be in my hands by the time London falls in September or October.
 
Mahrabal said:
I was thinking that taking Denmark would solve the Baltic problem for me.

My brain is hurting from trying to figure out how, as Germany, you forgot Russia existed :rofl:
Click to expand...

250px-Gumbies1999.PNG

hellO! Russia! The German HKW Gumbies just discovered Russia, Dönitz (to the far left) is baffled!
 
Pablius said:
I don´t know how to make an AI file...much less an event...I understand the concepts, but I don´t have the knowledge to actually do it without risking messing up the game, perhaps someone will come up with a "Scandinavia" mod some day

But back on topic...somewhat...Will you rain V1s over the UK after all?, I remember reading you were researching them. I´ve never found any use for rockets other than deliver a nuke...maybe to cripple infra. so units defending the beaches don´t regain org. so fast...
Click to expand...

the new DAIM has AI for Scandinavia IIRC.
 
March 7th, 1941: Persia annexed.

March 10th, 1941: Iraq annexed.

My Southern force has split into two groups... an Indian Front force now crossing the Indian border, and a Middle East force, now approaching Jerusalem.

I have captured my first multi-thousand-unit stockpile... 5,000-odd units of Oil in Kuwait. This is another feather in Doenitz's cap, since the British would have evacuated the Oil long ago, if only they had some Convoy ships left. 9,999 more Oil awaits me in Bombay.

A minor miracle has also taken place in the Middle East... apparently inspired by the approach of the German forces, the Italians (under AI control, not MC'd) have launched an amphibious invasion of Gaza, out-flanked the British defense, and captured Suez... finally sealing the Med. It's a race for Jerusalem.

The build-up for Seelowe continues apace... with German Aircraft pounding Britain while the shipyards continue to churn out new ships. The German Navy now consists of all of my old ships (none have been lost) plus 2 CVL, 5 CA, 3 CL, 6 DD... all level-4... with 4 BB, 2 CA, 2 CL and 3 DD under construction. Available German Convoys have reached a total of 154, plus 73 Escorts.
 
Middle East then Russia

Love your thread on the subs blue. I can not wait to start a game of my own. I see like most players you took on Russia from the east. I was wondering if you have ever used the Rommel plan and engaged them on a two front war through the south. You would have already captured Persia, and Iraq in a cake walk to Russia's undefended south. This would defiantly allow for more movement as you would be stacked with the oil that you captured and recieve from the middle east. I realize this is of topic, I was just wondering.
 
I quickly felt the pain of playing a democracy with a parliament full of doves and isolationists and had to agree to substantial defence budget cuts in order to get funding for expanding the New Deal, but with the Great War still fresh in so many people's memories there is no risk for a major conflict in Europe that could potentially expand to involve the USA for at least another 30-50 years anyway, is there? However, the Japanese intervention in the Chinese Civil War in late 1936 and the following atrocities (two separate AI DoWs long before any bridge incident - the first one might have been induced by Nationalist China only making event-peace with the Commies) have strengthened the hawks and interventionists in congress and they might agree to increased funding for the Navy before the summer break of 1938 (already two Gearing Up for War-events) - by which time I will have the -44 Electro subs researched. It almost feels like I'm cheating when I'm using American tech teams...
 
I now have Ship Assembly Lines researched, and have a final date for my Naval Construction... my first four Bismarcks will be in the water by the 17th of August, 1941... so allowing time to ORG-up, Sealion is scheduled for mid-September.
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How are you going to group your Bismarks?
 
Whenever I feel like I'm cheating by using American tech teams, I play as Germany for a while. IG Farben, Messerschmitt, Porsche and Krupp, Guderian and von Manstein... then I think of tech teams like Christie. All of a sudden, it doesn't seem like cheating anymore! :D
 
34mike said:
... I see like most players you took on Russia from the east. I was wondering if you have ever used the Rommel plan and engaged them on a two front war through the south. You would have already captured Persia, and Iraq in a cake walk to Russia's undefended south. This would defiantly allow for more movement as you would be stacked with the oil that you captured and recieve from the middle east. I realize this is of topic, I was just wondering.
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I assume that you mean going through Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Turkey, then splitting to go East to Persia and South to the Suez. In-game, this is pretty well the only feasible route to Russia's Southern border, since with the Med not yet closed, it would be almost impossible to maintain over-water Supply to a force of the required size... a land route must be secured.

The plan is certainly practicable... but it would require considerably larger Heer forces than I was able to build in this game. Remember that Russia has a GoI on Turkey, and might easily respond to a German DoW on Turkey with one of their own, against Germany.

In this game, because of my massive U-Boat builds, I was only able to build 14 Armored Divisions in time for the Russian Campaign (Hitler had 20 IRL), and even with my entire army gathered on the Russian Western border... except for a screen of single Infantry Divisions in the West... I was still outnumbered about 5-to-3. Given my meagre forces available, an early extension of the front into the Middle East and Turkey might have stretched me too far... the Russians could attack (because of their GoI on Turkey) at any moment, while I was engaged with the Turks and the Brits.

It is certainly do-able, but perhaps not as part of a U-Boat strategy, which itself places severe demands on the German productive capacity.

Another point is that my U-Boat strategy calls for an early attack on Russia, so that I can free up my Heer and Luftwaffe to launch Seelowe in '41. An early attack means a low-budget attack... especially given the U-Boat construction requirements, siphoning off much of the German productive capacity... and it is much easier, especially on the nerves, to run one shoestring operation rather than three simultaneously (Polish border, Caucauses, Suez).

In the present case, I've taken Iraq and Persia... and knocked Russia out of the war... all by March 1941, which is probably as much as I could have accomplished with a Turkish invasion anyway, given the need to build larger forces for the "Rommel Plan".


War Emblem said:
How are you going to group your Bismarks?
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All in one Task Force, under Raeder.
 
arab Fed?

Blue Emu,
How do I go about creating the Arab Federation? I currently have Iran, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, and Egypt up to El Alimain (where Italy stopped).Will I need ALL of Egypt as well as Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and those smaller countries at the end of the peninsula? I figure this would end my oil and TC problems in one shot IF I can do it.
BTW, in case you are interested, Bebro has released his latest sprite improvement pack. You can now download new Dive Bomber, Fighter, Battleship, and Carrier sprites that make Paradox's seem plain. :D
Thanks,
Scott
 
Pharm said:
How do I go about creating the Arab Federation?
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That sort of info is all in revolt.txt in the /db directory.

Code: 
minimum = {
#Egypt
4 901 902 915 914 913 912 911 910 909 908 906 905 904 903 1023 1024 1026 1027
#Syria
1862 1863 1792
#Jordan
1796 1802 407 1803
}

Code: 
extra = {
#Egypt
1800 1801 907 1021 1019 1022 1020 1025
#Syria
1795 1861
#Jordan
1802 407 1803
#Lebanon
1794 1793
#Iraq
1860 1864 1865 1866 1790 1824 1823 1806 1791
#Kuwait
1822
#Palestine
1797 1798 1799 404 406
#Saudi Arabia
1821 1818 1809 1808 1807 1805 1804
#Oman
1819 1820 1504
#Yemen
1812 1813 1814 1815
}
I suspect that you are either missing Syria or a province or two of Egypt.

Thanks for the heads-up on BeBro's new sprite-pack.
 
so, i've been reading through this periodically and it contains some great info...

but, nobody actually answered whether subs are useless or not. it seems like an awful big investment... sure trashing all the UK convoys is a nice result, but does it really accomplish anything that couldn't have been done in other ways...

i'm still not convinced that given the changes to subs that this is a very effective plan IC wise, time wise, etc...
 
Shingunto_nj said:
so, i've been reading through this periodically and it contains some great info...

but, nobody actually answered whether subs are useless or not. it seems like an awful big investment... sure trashing all the UK convoys is a nice result, but does it really accomplish anything that couldn't have been done in other ways...
Click to expand...

I'd say even if you can do that all by other means subs are still useful in the sense that they can do that as well. So it's a matter of choice, since those other means mean investment too.
 
Shingunto_nj said:
so, i've been reading through this periodically and it contains some great info...

but, nobody actually answered whether subs are useless or not. it seems like an awful big investment... sure trashing all the UK convoys is a nice result, but does it really accomplish anything that couldn't have been done in other ways...

i'm still not convinced that given the changes to subs that this is a very effective plan IC wise, time wise, etc...
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"An awful big investment" compared to what?

The 93 Subs that I built cost about the same number of IC-days as three Bismarcks... and I feel that I over-built by about 30 Subs. 60-odd would have done it. Two Bismarcks.

Compare the effect on the war in the West... especially for Italy vs UK... and the resources that I am now seizing and will seize because the British lack the Convoys to move them home.

I have already captured at least 6,000 Oil in British dumps, with another 20,000 Oil and 30,000 Rares waiting for me to arrive. Italy took Egypt very easily, and Japan (if they were not still locked in China) could have met me at the Persian border by now. Sealion will be a walk in the park, and the British capital will have to move to some godforsaken hole, since I will already have India by then.

All this for the price of two or three Bismarcks... my current Naval builds (4 BB, 2 CA, 2 CL, 3 DD serials, totalling 4 BB, 4 CA, 6 CL and 12 DD) are costing me at least twice as much as I spent on Subs... probably more.

But as I mentioned in my earlier posts... I'm not trying to prove that building subs is the best play... just that it is fully practical and that a valid game-plan can be made that involves a large U-Boat force.

DirtyCommiePuke said:
Subs have proven themselves to be effective... but by the time your subs are having a real effect on their stockpiles, you're ready to Seelowe...
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But I had discounted the effect on the British HOME stockpile right from the start. The main "stockpile" effect is the stockpiles in the colonies that I will capture (and am capturing) because the Brits cannot evacuate them home.

The U-Boat strategy kept Britain completely neutralized, and allowed me to put Russia out of the war in 1940 (instead of a 1940 Sealion, 1941 Russia). This allows me to launch a 1941 Sealion against a Britain that is no stronger (and perhaps weaker) than a typical 1940 Britain... due to the battering that my U-Boats and Air have given them. Certainly their fleet, which is the main defense against invasion, is far weaker than it was in 1940.

By the end of 1941, I will have Russia out of the war, the British Isles occupied, India, the Middle East and Egypt all taken, Gibraltar in Axis hands... how much MORE would I have accomplished by late 1941 with a different approach?

... and I still have my 81 U-Boats, for whatever use they will be.

Also bear in mind that the entire Garrison of India (and Malta, and Crete, and Hong Kong)... a couple of dozen Divisions... all starved to death, without costing me a single Manpower point.
 
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I would also posit that it depends on when one plans to perform Sealion. If before Russia, it is maybe not the route to go. If after, as with Emu's plan, then it seems quite sound.

Vann
 
A small update: The increased influence of the Hawks in congress, combined with not even the most staunch opposers being able to deny the positive effects for both the private and public sectors of the expanded New Deal (more than 11k money in the coffins despite spending more than 45 a day on buying supplies and resources), has made approval of allocating tax money to building and manning defensive installations aswell as a small but modern fleet to keep the coasts and tradelanes safe. No funding for an expanded army able to intervene overseas has been approved of as of March 1939, however.

Or, in other words, the first SS-5 flotilla is finished about half a year later than my initial estimate but still 5 years ahead of the in-game historical year. By the looks of it, it will be able to do convoy raiding in the Indian Ocean based in California. I'm also diverting myself from IC-whoring by fortifying four strategically located islands in the Pacific to enable air patrols over the entire hunting grounds for my subs, but plan to build no army capable of attacking Germany (current size 0 units, plans include 10-15 Inf for manning the Pacific forts) until 1941 - unless I am forced into the war sooner, of course. I don't want to reach Berlin before the Soviets as that would make the rest of the game a lot less interesting.

Edit: I really wish the Gato-class had been one of the named classes in the game. Commanding SS-215 Growler was one of my first computer game experiences and I still load up the game in Dosbox from time to time.
 
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The two plans that Blue Emu is effectively comparing are.

1) Early Sealion followed by Russian campaign. This clearly needs significant naval investment of some sort to land in the UK (ok you can do it with air power and the starting fleet). Having done this the UK capital goes to India and you will have to fight them across the rest of the world.

2) Convoy warfare and Russia first. This seems to work fine and converts the UK into a world spanning empire that can only fight in the UK. Isolating the colonies and starving them is a massive gain and whilst this may not be directly relevant to the win/lose question it does have some very attractive features.

Ultimately the winning issue for the uboats is that they are so cheap. I would not be surprised if the cost of the uboats is less than the cost of units no longer required for garrison in western europe. I may be exagerating here but the manpower transferred east is certainly very significant and manpower is as important for Germany as ICs. Note that the manpower cost of this uboat fleet is quite modest (0.5 per flotilla).

I think Blue Emu has proved that submarines are quite valuable if properly applied. He has probably proved that previous threads claiming they are worthless simply reflect players who do not understand how to use them.

However, it remains true that I may make very little use of them myself but this is because I am always on the offensive and my enemies have very little real use for convoys. However (again), Blue Emu has inspired me to give his namesake (commander of my uboat fleet) a lot more uboats and see what they can do. Gaining control of the world's island bases through attrition is quite an attractive prospect.
 
I'm considering playing a minor with sea access and just being Germany's "Sub Buddy" :rolleyes: . Just to join axis and do almost nothing but make subs for neutralizing England.

Maybe Portugal, or Finland? Brazil? Does anyone think this would work and what would be the minimum country size IC-wise necessary to pull it off? :)

Could be intensely boring as well :eek:

EDIT: Due to the air cover being a significant factor in the success of Blue emu's plan, that might limit me to countries near the target zones between Africa and South America... Portugal? Spain? Brazil? Mexico?!
 
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