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Wowwww... This is some awesome gameplay!

Though sending out DDs to fight your subs would be grossly inefficient, this would really be the only thing a player could do in this situation. How well would it have worked? I have seen the German AI do a number on UK convoys before, so a player may have to face a sub offensive, just not so skillfully directed (though I'm sure HoI3 Devs are lurking on here and taking notes LOL!).

In real life offensive patrols were horribly inefficient, with the deadliest sub killer being the convoys themselves once they received adequate surface and air escort - the baited trap. How would it have affected your sub offensive if Britain had say, 600 escorts with more in the que; would a more powerful convoy escort have driven off or even sunk some of your wolfpacks?

BTW emu, Don't know it this has been mentioned yet, but you also adopted another policy that Doenitz was wailing for - Luftwaffe cooperation with subs, which was woefully, even criminally from a German POV, inadequate during the war.

Though a bit ahistorical, wouldn't CVs have worked better that BBs for escorting Sealion transports? Even with the crappy positioning they get from your doctrine, they should keep the RN away from the transports longer by engaging them at longer range shouldn't they?
 
And by the way, may not be hearing from blue emu today, as this is the first day he can legally stand on his front porch in golf shorts and sock garters, yelling at the kids to keep off his lawn...

HAPPY BIRTHDAY OLD MAN!!!
 
Even if the type XXI had been equipped with radar that it could use from submerged then this would have made little difference. I am pretty sure there would have been almost instant development of a radar detector and this would have worked from much greater range than the radar, especially if the detector was in an aircraft.

The real issue with allied ASW effort is that its main success was down to air reconnaissance and the this success was simply from having enough aircraft to provide constant surveillance. This cannot be fixed by having better uboats. Ultimately finding convoys will expose the uboats unless they can achieve such a high density that they can simply stay submerged. Even then the solution is more air cover since centimetric radar was perfectly capable of detecting a submarine periscope.

In game the type XXI is a significant improvement over the type IX. It's visibility is halved and its convoy attack doubled. It is significantly more effective than a type IX. The problem with their apparent ineffectiveness is the improvement in enemy units. Once allied ASW is good there arguments for using cheap crappy units since you are going to lose lots of them whatever happens.
 
Happy birthday Blue emu! :)

It has been great to read about this experiment!
 
noobermenschen said:
... In real life offensive patrols were horribly inefficient, with the deadliest sub killer being the convoys themselves once they received adequate surface and air escort - the baited trap.
Exactly... one lesson that was forgotten between the two World Wars, and had to be painfully re-learned, was that U-Boats were not a threat unless they were in the immediate vicinity of a Convoy. Also, they were extremely hard to locate by random searching, except (again) in the immediate vicinity of a Convoy... where the area to be searched is greatly reduced.

Offensive Patrols were both unproductive... sinking very few U-Boats... and also strategically pointless, since they were hunting for U-Boats in places where the U-Boats threatened nothing anyway. Not until Airborne RADAR became a mature technology could Offensive Patrols actually accomplish anything.

noobermenschen said:
How would it have affected your sub offensive if Britain had say, 600 escorts with more in the que; would a more powerful convoy escort have driven off or even sunk some of your wolfpacks?
In-game, Convoys Escorts do not sink U-Boats... a flaw in the game system, since it is my understanding that in real life, the MAJORITY of U-Boat losses were to Convoy Escorts. What Convoy Escorts do in-game is to sharply reduce Convoy losses... instead of losing (for example) eight Convoys, a well-escorted run might lose two Convoys and one Escort.

Had my opponent started with more than his actual 160 Convoy Escorts and with more Destroyer flotillas, his losses would have been lighter, and my losses heavier... but note that it wasn't really neccessary for me to sink all of his Convoys before the historical date of the Vichy settlement (as has happened in this game), and that I could have afforded far more combat losses than the five flotillas actually lost. If it cripples the UK, I could have afforded ten times the losses.

noobermenschen said:
BTW emu, Don't know it this has been mentioned yet, but you also adopted another policy that Doenitz was wailing for - Luftwaffe cooperation with subs, which was woefully, even criminally from a German POV, inadequate during the war.
Correct... in my game, Goering is not quite the self-inflated buffoon that he was in real life. The major contribution that the Luftwaffe has made in my game has been Air attacks on ASW forces... rather than Anti-Shipping operations. Both types of operation were on a grossly inadequate scale in real life.

noobermenschen said:
Though a bit ahistorical, wouldn't CVs have worked better that BBs for escorting Sealion transports? Even with the crappy positioning they get from your doctrine, they should keep the RN away from the transports longer by engaging them at longer range shouldn't they?
CVs might have worked better for that one operation (Sealion), just to hold off the British forces... but I am building my Navy for the long term, and my Doctrines favor a surface fleet... also, there is an element of role-play involved.

I expect that my U-Boats plus my surface fleet plus my Luftwaffe should be able to hold off the Royal Navy.

noobermenschen said:
And by the way, may not be hearing from blue emu today, as this is the first day he can legally stand on his front porch in golf shorts and sock garters, yelling at the kids to keep off his lawn...

HAPPY BIRTHDAY OLD MAN!!!
I'm here... just got back inside from chasing the dang kids off the lawn... :mad:

========= ========== ========= ========= ========= =======

Update : 00:00 hours, July 1st, 1940.

The Russians are making very slow progress in subduing the Baltic States... Lithuania has been annexed, but Estonia and Latvia are still fighting. The Bessarabia-Northern Bukovinia region of Romania has been demanded and occupied by the Soviets. In response to this, a coup in Romania has replaced the Democratic government with a Totalitarian one.

It looks like Barbarossa is ready to go... Latvia and Estonia will not join the Allies when attacked, since they are already in alliance with each other.

The fourth HQ has arrived from the West, and a fifth HQ has been newly constructed and deployed on the German/Russian border. That should be plenty.

Stocks on hand for the operation:

692 Manpower, with an income of 1.49 Manpower per day.
80 k Rares.
89 k Oil... which should be plenty, given my shortage of Armored Divisions (only 14).
TC: 454/776.

Convoy losses continue at a greatly reduced level... 16 Convoys and 8 Escorts being sunk in this two-week period, bringing the total losses to 1070 Convoys and 160 Escorts. That should just about wrap it up... ten months from start to finish.

British warship losses continue to mount, reaching a total of 84 RN vessels (almost all ASW vessels, almost all to Air attack) and 32 Allied warships. German and Italian Naval forces have suffered no additional losses.

Starvation and disease continues to claim isolated British garrisons around the world... half of the Divisions on Malta are gone, and the Crete garrison is shrinking. Italy has resumed their offensive in Egypt against the unsupplied British forces, pushing Southward up the Nile Valley towards Khartoum. I would much prefer that the offensive had been aimed at Suez...

All German forces in Poland have been placed on the highest state of alert... the operation is expected to commence within hours.
 
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Update : 05:00 Hours, July 1st, 1940.

We are now at war with the Baltic States and the USSR. As expected, Latvia and Estonia have held to their own seperate alliance, and did not join the allies... so Russia is only at war with the Baltics and the Axis.

Phase 1 operations will include the conquest of Estonia and Latvia, the encirclement of the Russian forces advancing into the Baltics, and the encirclement of the Pripyat marshes and Kiev... all part of a general advance to the line of the Dneiper. In Phase 2, the Panzer forces will turn South-East into the Ukraine... unless the situation requires their presence elsewhere.

July_1_40_EF.jpg


A minor Amphibious move has been planned as part of the assault on Riga, and sufficient forces have been held in reserve in Konigsburg.
 
You inspired me to try submarine warfare in my current German campaign. I have no idea how you managed to build that many subs, I am struggling to find the resources to build them right now, but we're going to give it a go. We're a year away from war in Poland. We'll see how it turns out!
 
blue emu said:
Update : 05:00 Hours, July 1st, 1940.

We are now at war with the Baltic States and the USSR. As expected, Latvia and Estonia have held to their own seperate alliance, and did not join the allies... so Russia is only at war with the Baltics and the Axis.

Phase 1 operations will include the conquest of Estonia and Latvia, the encirclement of the Russian forces advancing into the Baltics, and the encirclement of the Pripyat marshes and Kiev... all part of a general advance to the line of the Dneiper. In Phase 2, the Panzer forces will turn South-East into the Ukraine... unless the situation requires their presence elsewhere.

A minor Amphibious move has been planned as part of the assault on Riga, and sufficient forces have been held in reserve in Konigsburg.

The “AAR” continues to be fascinating. Many questions come to mind:

What is your supply situation? Will you be able to go with offensive supply continually or somewhere near that?
I take it you have ’39 infantry or have you been able to upgrade to any extent to ’41?
What level are your tanks and motor rifles?
Have you considered an arm attacking to the Black sea to cut off the USSR forces between there and Romania?
Are you allied to Romania?
What do your spies tell you of USSR ground strength?
What will you do when winter sets in; continue attacking, dig in or play it by ear?

You may be OK, but it feels like you might be cutting it a bit close in terms of available campaigning months with the forces available. Hopefully, there will be no stalling in front of Moscow and Leningrad when winter comes. I think your Schlachtgeschwader und Sturzkampfgeschwader may be a decisive asset in the upcoming battles with your current order of battle. Use them relentlessly, ignore the casualties. The Fuehrer would approve.


...
 
ClinOps said:
What is your supply situation? Will you be able to go with offensive supply continually or somewhere near that?
34 k Supplies, and building 215 per day. I intend to use Offensive Supply until I am one "use" short of running out... I will save the last "use" of Offensive Supply for a crisis. Oil does not look like a problem... given my shortage of Tanks.

ClinOps said:
I take it you have ’39 infantry or have you been able to upgrade to any extent to ’41?
1939-Infantry, correct. 1941-Infantry is 40% researched.

ClinOps said:
What level are your tanks and motor rifles?
Armor-III and Motorized-I.

The step up to Armor-IV is comparitively minor... I often put it off in favor of more critical research. In this case... I'm working on V-1 Buzz-Bombs for the planned 1941 Sealion... instead of better Tanks.

The step up to Motorized-II is more signifigant... but I wanted Mauser to start working on 1941-Infantry instead.

ClinOps said:
Have you considered an arm attacking to the Black sea to cut off the USSR forces between there and Romania?
That was what I meant when I said "In Phase 2, the Panzer forces will turn South-East into the Ukraine"... their target will be Melitopol, if the situation on the ground allows it.

ClinOps said:
Are you allied to Romania?
Not yet.

The Southern extention of the offensive is not planned until Phase 2... and I didn't want to bring in the Romanians and then just leave them in the lurch. Neither did I want to sacrifice Concentration-of-Force by sending a detachment to defend them.

I will let their own neutrality defend them until I have dealt with the enemy opposite the center of my line.

ClinOps said:
What do your spies tell you of USSR ground strength?
201 Infantry, 14 Armor. The figures for Air Strength are obviously incorrect... they start the game with several times as much.

ClinOps said:
What will you do when winter sets in; continue attacking, dig in or play it by ear?
If the enemy army has been decisively broken, I will continue advancing... "attacking" is probably too strong a word for brushing aside the remnants that I expect to be facing by then.

Remember that Winter tends to come earlier in the North than in the South... except for Mountains. It may be possible to continue attacking towards Baku and Sverdlovsk even after Winter weather shuts down the Northern part of the front.

ClinOps said:
You may be OK, but it feels like you might be cutting it a bit close in terms of available campaigning months with the forces available. Hopefully, there will be no stalling in front of Moscow and Leningrad when winter comes. I think your Schlachtgeschwader und Sturzkampfgeschwader may be a decisive asset in the upcoming battles with your current order of battle. Use them relentlessly, ignore the casualties. The Fuehrer would approve.
This is indeed a valid concern... the calander represents as large a problem as the Russian resistance.

However... since I was determined to avoid exploits, once the Russians attacked Lithuania, I was more-or-less forced to just wait until they annexed them, to avoid triggering a spurious war between Russia and the Allies.

Other than that, I've been ready to go for about two weeks.

War Emblem said:
You inspired me to try submarine warfare in my current German campaign. I have no idea how you managed to build that many subs, I am struggling to find the resources to build them right now, but we're going to give it a go. We're a year away from war in Poland. We'll see how it turns out!
Let me know how it goes... Single-Player or Multi-Player? I am particularly interested in hearing from people who try to adopt a (no doubt modified) version of my "cordon" or "double-cordon" anti-shipping strategy in MP games.

EDIT: *sigh* The invasion has been underway for 19 hours... and already my TC is in the Red. Oh, well... it won't take forever to reach Moscow... it will just seem like forever...
 
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blue emu said:
That was what I meant when I said "In Phase 2, the Panzer forces will turn South-East into the Ukraine"... their target will be Melitopol, if the situation on the ground allows it..

DoH! Missed it........ pauses to remove head from ass.

blue emu said:
201 Infantry, 14 Armor. The figures for Air Strength are obviously incorrect... they start the game with several times as much...

Sounds to me like you are going to cruise right over them with this force distribution. You should be able to bag 30-50 divisions in the first two major encirclements alone, maybe another 20-30 to the south in the next step. The USSR probably has another 30 divisions or so in the far east and 10-20 more in Finland. That doesnt leave much. The east front should be pretty empty in a month or two.

War Emblem said:
I have no idea how you managed to build that many subs,

One final (well, for the moment) question; were you IC-whoring to get to that level of submarine production?

Very intersted to see what happens next on the east front and hopefully, how you end up dealing with the UK. Keep em coming!

...
 
ClinOps said:
Sounds to me like you are going to cruise right over them with this force distribution. You should be able to bag 30-50 divisions in the first two major encirclements alone, maybe another 20-30 to the south in the next step. The USSR probably has another 30 divisions or so in the far east and 10-20 more in Finland. That doesnt leave much. The east front should be pretty empty in a month or two.
I hope to have a superiority of force by the end of Phase 1, yes... certainly by the end of Phase 2.

In my last German game, my Phase 1 encirclements netted only about 20 Divisions total... but I actually over-ran another 40 or so on the march, while they were retreating.

ClinOps said:
One final (well, for the moment) question; were you IC-whoring to get to that level of submarine production?
I built about 12 IC less than I usually do for Germany.

My production strategy involved starting a 99-unit serial of obsolete Medium Armor-II right from January 1st, 1936... so that I would not have to build Armor in parallel in '38 or '39. Medium Armor-II upgrades directly to my "Barbarossa" Tank, Medium-III, in one step... unlike those starting Light Armor, which require three upgrade steps (two of them at full cost).

By accumulating Armor assets gradually... and with a large Gearing bonus... I was able to put a larger-than-normal fraction of my production into building U-Boats, once the 1938 design was researched... I only Tech-Rushed it by half a year or so.

I managed to steal the Motorized blueprints from Russia, so I was able to rush that as well, and start two more long serials. As you've probably noticed from my OOB a few posts above, 10 out of my 12 Panzer Corps only have one Armored Division each... Motorized makes up the bulk of my mobile forces.
 
blue emu said:
I managed to steal the Motorized blueprints from Russia, so I was able to rush that as well, and start two more long serials.

Quite a coup! I usually get 4th century optics, or sheep herding, or fur lined sink production or something equally usefull when I steal techs. :rolleyes:

blue emu said:
As you've probably noticed from my OOB a few posts above, 10 out of my 12 Panzer Corps only have one Armored Division each... Motorized makes up the bulk of my mobile forces.

I did indeed, hopefully you won't pay too high an organizational penalty for this mix in combat.

...
 
ClinOps said:
Quite a coup! I usually get 4th century optics, or sheep herding, or fur lined sink production or something equally usefull when I steal techs. :rolleyes:
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!

I've tried stealing techs as a minor, and what I get is EXACTLY that useful!!!

Emu, I'd have thought for sure your TC would have been alright, even on OS (that I think would jack it up to around 675??) I may have to pay more attention to what my divisions consume in combat/movement (I usually fight w/Infantry armies)
 
noobermenschen said:
Emu, I'd have thought for sure your TC would have been alright, even on OS...
It's fine... I'm just practicing my whining, for later in the campaign. It's 815/776. 95% SE.

Watch it go through the roof as I collect some Partisans and OTM, though.

======== ========= ======== ======== ========= ==========

08:00 Hours, July 7th, 1940.

The campaign is in its seventh day. All spearheads are still pushing forward, and each one needs to advance only one more province to seal the pockets around the Baltics and the Pripyat.

July_6_40_EF.jpg


Latvia has been annexed, following an amphibious landing in Riga, and German Infantry are pushing forward towards Estonia.

The Russians under Zhukov have mounted a strong Armored counter-attack aimed towards Konigsburg and have thrown me out of Siauliau in former Lithuania... thus playing right into my hands, as the pincers led by Manstein and Model are about to snap shut behind them.

Guderian and Hausser, facing lighter opposition and no organized counter-attacks, will soon meet up behind the Pripyat marshes, slamming the door on another chunk of the Red Army.

OKW is well satisfied with the initial progress, but reports from the front indicate than the Armored forces are already beginning to tire.
 
My production strategy involved starting a 99-unit serial of obsolete Medium Armor-II right from January 1st, 1936... so that I would not have to build Armor in parallel in '38 or '39. Medium Armor-II upgrades directly to my "Barbarossa" Tank, Medium-III, in one step... unlike those starting Light Armor, which require three upgrade steps (two of them at full cost).

This is interesting because this is what is killing my ICs right now, parallel runs of armor in '38. It also has affected my ability to produce Subs. I was rolling along well in '37 since I wasn't building anything but Subs, but now I have lots of infantry to build. I waited to build infantry until I got '39 Infantry and these are being built now along with MOT and ARM. Hopefully, we get this all straightened out in the next year. We'd be more prepared for war in '40, but I guess if we have to go we have to go.
 
Update : 23:00 hours July 8th, 1940.

Reports from the front confirm that Manstein and Model have linked up at the Daugava (Western Dvina) River, closing the trap on the Russian forces in Lithuania. Earlier this same day, Guderian and Hausser linked up near Zhlobin on the Dnieper, sealing the Pripyat pocket. It is not yet known how many Russian Divisions have been trapped in these two encirclements... but the Armored counter-attack led by Zhukov was still pushing towards Konigsburg when his supply lines were severed.

The Luftwaffe has been instructed to deluge the trapped forces with bombs, and Infantry formations have been ordered to advance to mop up the two pockets.

Rommel has been ordered to delay his attack on Priluki by 24 hours, in order to allow supporting forces to move into position to assist his assault crossing of the lower Dnieper with flanking pressure.

July_9_40_EF.jpg

The pincers close behind the Russian frontier armies.

EDIT: Colonel Pieckenbrock of Abwehr-I has tendered an urgent report insisting that the previous estimates of Russian Army strength (~215 Divisions) are much too optimistic, and that intelligence assembled by H-Ost indicates at least 241 Russian Divisions... perhaps more.
 
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This is a great thread I've been enjoying it from the start.

Just 2 questions.

1. Can we see a picture of your empire in partisan mapmode? I think that would be interesting see.

2. What did you do when you no longer had "sea wolf" admirals? Did you use "blockade runner" or "spotter"?

Thanks
 
AKSKDL said:
This is a great thread I've been enjoying it from the start.
Thanks... I've been enjoying it, too.

AKSKDL said:
1. Can we see a picture of your empire in partisan mapmode? I think that would be interesting
Partisan_mode.jpg


AKSKDL said:
2. What did you do when you no longer had "sea wolf" admirals? Did you use "blockade runner" or "spotter"?
Spotters, to search for Convoys... then when I ran out of good Spotters, I started training up some Superior Tacticians for my Battleship Navy now under construction.

It's surprising how many Experience Points you can get just by Convoy Raiding... one of my Sea Wolves seems to have gained two Skill-levels.
 
blue emu said:
Thanks... I've been enjoying it, too.


Partisan_mode.jpg


Spotters, to search for Convoys... then when I ran out of good Spotters, I started training up some Superior Tacticians for my Battleship Navy now under construction.

It's surprising how many Experience Points you can get just by Convoy Raiding... one of my Sea Wolves seems to have gained two Skill-levels.

So you arent releasing puppets?

You could go for SCA or release NatSpain...although natspain wouldnt be as useful.
 
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