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Portugal said:
The event in which D.Afonso V kills his uncle should be named Alfarrobeira Battle , and marks the end of the merchants/burghers influence over the Portuguese Crown, achieved in 1385. D. Afonso V represents the Noble party, and the renewal of the North Africa Campaigns for God's and King's glory (and Nobles profit).
After 1460, the king rents the discoveries of the West African Coast to some merchants, but his son (that'll be João II) after 1470 takes the responsability of such discoveries.
With D. Manuel I and the 1st portuguese economical crises (the commerce from India don't pay the costs of the lavish court and nobles, as the german merchants are the intermidiaries and stall the sellings untill the prices are too low) he takes the control and monopoly of the East commerce, giving another blow to the portuguese commercial groups/merchants/burghers.
With D. João III marring D. Catarina (daughter of the spanish Kings), he abides and acepts the Inquisition in Portugal, that his father didn't allowed, prefering to baptize all the portuguese jews and moors. With the Inquisition in Portugal, the jews run away to the netherlands, where they will profit from the East knowledge they gained with portuguese commerce. This will further deplete the portuguese merchant social group.
Now... who can translate this in to code, for some more events?
I'll further complete this in other posts
Luis de Aveiro said:
We're going to need more detail on what the game effects ought to be. But this is a good outline of how domestic policy evolved over the period. The Inquistion could be modeled on Inquisition events for other countries (and more Catholic nations ought to get this event, even France who historically never adopted it). Scripting events is easy, getting the event effects and choices right is the hard part
Historically the Portuguese-Spanish border has virtually been unchanged since the 12th century and both powers never really were at war either since then.However,in many games,Portugal is reduced to one province already in 1450.This usually happens,because Portugal allies with Aragon,which get into a war with Castile,which then take Algarve and Oporto.This in the following cripples the Portuguese colonization and leads to very strange results in the Americas.Don't know,could this somehow be prevented by the AI files or relation changes?It would even be OK,if the Portuguese join Castile and fight Aragon,because the Aragonese hardly would get through to Portugal.
Other than:Kennelly said:
-Portuguese involvement in the Castillian civil war from what 1474-1477?
-Spanish conquest of Portugal 1580
-Repeated Spanish invasion attempts in the war that lasted from 1640-1668.
-Portuguese invasion of Spain and capture of Madrid during the War of Spanish Sucession (1707?)
-Spanish invasion of Portugal during 7 years war (1760-1762)
-Spanish participation in the French conquest of Portugal in 1807.
That's just off the top of my head. Spain and Portugal were frequently at war with each other.
edit: which is not to say that Castille taking Argarve and Porto is a good thing. Clearly we'd like to avoid that. But Spain and Portugal shouldn't be the best of friends.
Isaac Brock said:
The Spanish didn't conquered Portugal in 1580. Their King inherited it
The Spanish didn't invade Portugal in the 7 years war.
There was a war before the Napoleonic invasion, (1801?) called the Guerra das Laranjas (Oranges War - the fruit, not the dynasty), where portugal lost Olivença to Spain
Luis de Aveiro said:
I suppose it's a question of interpretation, but what happened is this. Don Antonio had himself crowned in Lisbon over the objections of Philip II. Philip sent an army into Portugal. That army met and defeated a Portuguese army that supported Don Antonio at the battle of Alacantra. After the battle resistance collapsed and the Spanish army occupied Lisbon. I call that a conquest. Philip II inherited Portugal in the same way that William I inherited England.
From a A Portuguese site
Is there any support to the idea of making the Portugese inheritance actually happen? The current vassalage is pretty much an admission that the game can't handle the situation. But I think it can. Here's how I'd go at it:
- Spain get the event where it can claim the throne. "A" choice is to do so, with a small BB cost. "B" choice improves relations with Portugal by a lot, and other major powers by a little, and ends the sequence.
- Portugal has the option of accepting the claim ("B" choice - skip to part 4) or crowning Don Antonio in stead (break alliance, vassalage, royal marriage, go to war).
- If peace is restored, the sequence is over, and relations get improved a little. If Spain gets control of Tago, it triggers the inheritance events.
- The inheritance events secede every Portugese ToT province to Spain (which will have no BB cost, right?) and then have Spain inherit Portugal. Spain will also vassalize Portugal here, as a backup for a human Portugal.
- The Portugese rebellion events will work in reverse: Spain releases Portugal, breaks vassalage, and secedes all Portugese ToT lands to them. If we want this event can be expanded to have all sorts of alternate possibilities thrown into it as well.
Isaac Brock said:
Although the site it's no very accurate (for started the Marquis of Pombal didn't wasn't minister of John/João V but Joseph/José I) That might have happened, but I'll read about in in millitary book and I'll update the info.
Anyway If I can get you a list of possible events (and possible conquenses, can you "translate it" to EU2 file code?
doktarr said:
see this event in vanilla, I'll tell you this weekend what further or updates and alterations could be done to it
http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~dpohara/portugal.html is a detailed description of the Spanish invasion of Portugal in the Seven Years War.
Aside from the question as to whether Spain inheriting Portugal is feasible (and that depends on whether the BB rules have been changed since 1.05, and I don't know whether they have) I think we have to ask whether it is desirable. In the case of a human Portugal they would clearly go with Don Antonio, so that isn't a problem.
A human Spain would be much better off than with the Portuguese vassalage. Will this cause problems? To me it's a lot like the Spain-Austria situation under Charles V - they would become so powerful in the rotw as to make gameplay problematic. Would MP be required to have a human Portugal so as to take Don Antonio?
I'm on the fence on this one. Portugal did contribute greatly to the Spanish Empire and from a pure accuracy point of view inheritance is probably better. But I don't know how gameplay will turn out.
Aside from the question as to whether Spain inheriting Portugal is feasible (and that depends on whether the BB rules have been changed since 1.05, and I don't know whether they have) I think we have to ask whether it is desirable. In the case of a human Portugal they would clearly go with Don Antonio, so that isn't a problem.
A human Spain would be much better off than with the Portuguese vassalage. Will this cause problems? To me it's a lot like the Spain-Austria situation under Charles V - they would become so powerful in the rotw as to make gameplay problematic. Would MP be required to have a human Portugal so as to take Don Antonio?
I'm on the fence on this one. Portugal did contribute greatly to the Spanish Empire and from a pure accuracy point of view inheritance is probably better. But I don't know how gameplay will turn out.
Well, yes and no. It would be the default choice, so both a human and a computer are likely to choose it. I agree that a human player ought to be able to prevent their capital from being captured. Even if a human is woefully unprepared and loses, a clever player will break the ensuing vassalge and then invoke the ToT to swallow all their colonies back up.Isaac Brock said:
The biggest gameplay issue would be in MP, where it's easy to imagine a human Spain sacking a human Portugal's capital and preventing Portugal from reasserting herself. Perhaps claiming the Portugese throne should give the other major powers a temporary CB on Spain? This will allow them to apply considerable pressure to prevent the formation of a Iberian juggernaut in MP, and it could be enough to cause a human Spain to let the matter fall and accept Don Antonio.
Would you put the Spain-Astria union in the same boat, centralization-wise, as the Spain-Portugal union? Especially in the more recent patches (which I think we both agree should not be supported, but anyway) it's clear that we're supposed to consider vassalization to be a reasonable approximation of a national union, at least for decentralized states.Isaac Brock said:
Well again, the biggest concern here is MP. In single player, nobody plays Spain if they're looking for a challenge.Isaac Brock said:
Sorry. I meant to ask:
"Would an MP game be required to have someone play Portugal so that human Spain wouldn't get all the benefits from AI Portugal."
And about the Austria thing I meant that the main reason to keep Spain and Austria seperate in 1520 is for play balance.
Would Portugal even need to break vassalage in order to use Tordesillas to reclaim all her provinces? I think the answer is no.
"Would an MP game be required to have someone play Portugal so that human Spain wouldn't get all the benefits from AI Portugal."
And about the Austria thing I meant that the main reason to keep Spain and Austria seperate in 1520 is for play balance.
Would Portugal even need to break vassalage in order to use Tordesillas to reclaim all her provinces? I think the answer is no.
My understanding is that Portugal is taken the vast majority of the time in MP. It could be agreed that Spain has to let the matter fall if Portugal is AI controlled. Much like many MP games have the house rule that the Ottomans can't keep orthodox tech.Isaac Brock said:
I understood this; I was just asking about the relative centralization of the Spanish/Austrian union versus the Spanish/Portugese union.Isaac Brock said:
That's true, but she surely would if played by a human.Isaac Brock said:
doktarr said:
The Vassalge, in game terms, seems the most plausible (unless someone finds another, like some kind of regency (vice-king governing portugal, which was true)
Can you explain me this clearly?
Will (, in case of the human player is playing spain) the computer be able to choose between Dom António or Felipe? If so who would the computer choose more promptly?
If the human player is playing Portugal, and choose Felipe, and begins vassalage, he might reclaim the provinces under tordesillas treaty, but he also want to have access to them (that happened historically). Also, in this case there should be a event providing the Portuguese Restoration in 1640,Dec,01 - that could, this optional fall in to war status/ Or the possibility to get the independence if spain forces portugal into war (i.e. the more wars/attacks from spanish enemies to portugues provinces/colonies, more the chncefor portugal to get independent)
Another thing: according to historical matters: the portugues player, wether human or not, should have the possibility to choose a third possibility: Catarina, Duchess of Braganza (grand-mother of John IV), in which the aristocracy gets more points. Dom António is english-frendly and he stablished a base in azores, and felipe had to attack it. If felipe is choosen the azores should revolt, besides the other things.... If António is choose +50 diplomacy to English, French and other enemies of spain/habsburgs
As doktarr suggests the default AI choice would be Don AntonioLuis de Aveiro said:
Which is a major problem in trying to get this to work.
The event breaking the vassalage in 1640 already exists. What would be needed would be to cede all the Portuguese provinces held by Spain back to Portugal. Your idea of tying it to attacks on Portuguese colonies is a very good one, but it's next to impossible to implement.
Would it make much difference though? Other than making it simpler to get Joao IV onto the throne by 1640 of course
Those are good ideas.
Fernando Po
I think Fernando Po should have sugar as a commodity not slaves. This island's main commodity historically was sugar. Also under the city name of the province it says "Sao Thome," which was another island close to fernando Po. I'm assuming that this province in the game also reprsents this island too and that's why it has it for a city name. Sao Thome produced alot of sugar historically.
This is my first post please tell me if i have to back up my claims and how. Just in case i do here are a couple of links that briefly discuss what i am claiming. I'm not sure if this is the right spot for this post please let me know. I put it here because fernando Po in the game is usally discovered and colonized by Portugal.
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/5434.htm
http://courses.wcupa.edu/jones/his1...NE/T-OVERSE.HTM
I think Fernando Po should have sugar as a commodity not slaves. This island's main commodity historically was sugar. Also under the city name of the province it says "Sao Thome," which was another island close to fernando Po. I'm assuming that this province in the game also reprsents this island too and that's why it has it for a city name. Sao Thome produced alot of sugar historically.
This is my first post please tell me if i have to back up my claims and how. Just in case i do here are a couple of links that briefly discuss what i am claiming. I'm not sure if this is the right spot for this post please let me know. I put it here because fernando Po in the game is usally discovered and colonized by Portugal.
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/5434.htm
http://courses.wcupa.edu/jones/his1...NE/T-OVERSE.HTM
Looks right; the references you provided seem pretty solid. I'll post a link to your comment in the "province goods" thread.idontlikeforms said:
Welcome to the forums, and thanks for the help.
doktarr said:
I definitely prefer that the vassilization take place and not annexation. Historically, when portugal was joined to Spain it still functioned on an administrative level as Portugal. It's colonies etc. were still run by portuguese. I interpet vassilization to be cover barely what took place with Portugal and Spain when they were joined. If it is annexed then Portugal's colonies after awhile will convert to Castilian. This is a problem too. However I do support the idea that Fernando Po and Tangiers be turned over to Spain when and if Portugal breaks vassilization. Also if there were any other colonies that Spain got historically when this happened that I'm unaware of I'd agree with that too then. The annexation idea seems to me that it might cause other unpredictable problems too. I'm concerned that it might make things worse.
I do like your desire to add many events to the game. I think that makes it more fun and a better history lesson while playing. I just happen to differ in opinion with you on this one.