Chinese Cheese - A Ming AAR

sprites said:

they should not be allowed to convert the hindu lands , for sure ^^
the real question is have they enough troops to gain enough prestige? , well if you don't wipe the stacks , maybe
and a few minors removed ... the world forget fast with a bowl of ramen

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Deccan had about the same amount of troops as I had in that region. I had some extra infantry in Burma, but they were busy herding animists.

...and Deccan proved a rather nasty adversary. I failed to remember the strength of the early Indian units.

spock2 said:

just one more step to become latin nation

and i see u have been clearing those OPM-s

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Yep - just a little longer.

The OPMs vanish one by one... but a few of them will be around for some time, as I keep getting sidetracked on other fronts.

Musthavename said:

I love how gamey this AAR is. What's your tech relative to the Europeans anyway?

Btw, as everyone has already said, I can't believe how exploitable that Oirat Mission is.

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Compared to Europe, I was - and still am - ways behind. They had a fifty year head start, you know. The neighbor bonus doesn't help that much when you're "only" five levels behind.

Still, by going Latin this early, I ought to catch up faster too... Maybe by 1600, we'll be equals. Or they'll be gone. Either is fine with me.

The Oirat mission is ridiculously easy to exploit since it only triggers on relationship points, which is easy to manipulate with diplomats. That said, I'd say the Castille/Spain mission of 'Finish the Reconquista' is just as good - it has more difficult 'reset' conditions, but greater rewards (+50 army tradition, -20 BadBoy).

Vesimir said:

More updates. Your first AAR had an update every time I looked and it made it perfect for me! Now your AARs are only very good....

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Now, now... Very good is good enough for me.

I have only so much time to play the game, edit screenshots, type up some wannabe-whitty side commentary and reply to feedback, you know. Plus, my boss likes it when I work rather than do any of those other things during office hours.[size=-2]...not that I can't find free moments occasionally.[/size]

Despite the ongoing war, Hongzhi I decides to continue the reforms. at last reaching the Latin technology group. This does cause our stability to collapse, but it is necessary for our grand future.


Deccan proves a nasty surprise for us. They have a large, all-cavalry army - and their Hills Fighter Cavalry is quite devastating. Even so, by outmaneuvering them, Ming forces make good progress.


September 17th, 1464 - Assam is force-converted to animism


We turn to Deccan's overlords for a peace settlement. We do not claim Indravati, for a reason.


This massive gain of land boosts our prestige above the magic limit, and we can again focus on the Oirats.


This is why Indravati was left alone; Hindu zealots loyal to Ming.


Some chow mein wins the Oirats over. We then get a novel challenge - pursue trade in distant Paris. First, we must force France to open their Center of Trade to us, and then send merchants there. This could prove a costly affair.


To our astonishment, Tranvancore not only sails to Malacca, but also succeeds in conquering them. To say the least, this is a wrench in the works of Ming's plans. We need that Center of Trade for colonists. For now, we can but hope it will increase so much in value that we can split it apart.


Boundaries are there to move forward. Ayutthaya is now in our way.


The same is the fate of Deccan.


December 18th, 1465 - Manipur is force-converted to animism


Castille is starting to concern Emperor Hongzhi I. Not only did they invade Turkey, they also decided to take the only Center of Trade the Ottomans had built for themselves.


To open a market, we only need +50 relations with the target. The hard part is actually placing five whole merchants there. Alas, after many failed attempts at getting as many as two there, it is increasingly obvious this mission could take decades.


Due to our good relations with Japan and Travancore, two of the nearby coastal Centers of Trade are off-limits, for now. The Timurids hold another two, but they are still too powerful for us. The last nearby one was in the hands of the Timurids, but amazingly enough, some carefully placed spies sparked a nationalist revolt, and Sind re-emerged. Now, January 3rd, 1467, we reap our reward.


As soon as we regain 0 stability, we abandon Colonial Ventures for Conquest of the New World. Castille and Ming are thus the only nations exploring the unknown.


It will take a while to recover from this...


For that reason, the Emperor abandons the trade mission, in favor of more of the Oirat seesaw.


Chagatai is trimmed down. It is time to prepare for a confrontation with the Timurids - especially since the big, evil empire has begun preying on their fellow Sunnis now.


The Oirats are quickly bribed and buttered up. While we already have a daring explorer making ventures deep into the unknown oceans, we will have to expand our fleet. No less than thirty carracks are needed as a mere starting point. While it will take us a year and drain our already pressed economy, but it is worthwhile to complete. Every cored port we have now builds a ship.


It turns out our invasion of Sind is far easier than we ever could have imagined. Their only army is a rebel army we once sponsored, and they will thus not fight us. The only way they can fight us, is by increasing the rate of attrition.


Emperor Hongzhi I is greatly troubled by Castille's continued procurement of Centers of Trade. This time, they rob the Golden Horde of their southernmost trading hub.


It is a small comfort that Indravati at last joins us voluntarily.

spock2 said:

you are finally latin,yay

and i cant wait to see what have u discovered

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Latin tech group is nice. Too bad my units will only ever be half as good... at least when the fire phase comes around at Land 18 or so. I will have a slight edge in cavalry tech for a few decades, if I make it to Land 13. As for discoveries... we'll get to that.

Vesimir said:

It goes without saying that the Aztecs must be the first to feel your wrath.

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They'd certainly be a good choice... if they're there still. Maya got awfully aggressive.

Kartos said:

Great, you're finally Latin.
The Oirat mission is very usefull, within how much year do you receive the mission?
And are you going to stop Castille before they expands to the new world?

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Since I'm almost - but not quite - guaranteed to get it every two missions, since I have to do another mission while I send them insults to make the Oirat mission eligible again, I should have it no later than every five years. That's how often I can cancel any impossible assignments I get. However, there are ways around that too. By staying at war when you fulfill a mission, you eliminate the chances for certain missions like manufactory construction, and make eligible a number of easy missions (break blockades, blockade this port, rout this siege, lift this siege, etc.).

If I'm lucky, the gap between two Oirat missions can be as little as six months (1st month is the mission completion diplomat, 2nd and 3rd are insult diplomats, 4th, 5th and 6th are gift diplomats, the last of which completes the mission again - if I've performed or cancelled an alternate missionafter the two insults).

As for Castille... Europe was far away at this point, and I wasn't in the best of shape to tackle a rich, higher tech, better unit, higher manpower, bigger navy, halfway around the world country by amphibious assault. That said, all in due time...

sprites said:

he gets it every 2 missions , so every 5 years at worst

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Exactly. Five years at the worst - more if I'm seriously unlucky and get a mission with a 5 factor over a 1000 factor one. Six months at the best, about.

whitesoxfan said:

I just realized something! This is very hard difficulty, so the AIs will build very strong forts. You should be at least slightly offensive, since the fort decay will help with the animist spread.

Also, it seems like the best strategy for Ryukyu would be to give them a few rich provinces and a few others in places around the world you want them to convert. Once they've converted one of these, you can sponser a nationalist rebellion and them conquer the nation that comes out of it.

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Given time, the AI will build superforts at Normal difficulty too. That caused me headaches in Italy in the Teuton game. Of course, you're right - this time, the AIs will have more money to squander. I checked the save with the eu3stats generator just now, as I just passed 1500 in play. Some of the AIs have more than ten thousand ducats saved...

And yes, eventually, I might just slide back towards Offensive. I certainly won't go Defensive, if I can help it. Mind, no reason to worry about this until I or the AI reach Level 3 Fort and up Land Tech. If the Timurids built Level 3 forts, I could forget all about the animist wavefront.

As for Ryukyu... I really must sell them something worthwhile soon. They got a nice army going, but no missionaries still. After seeing the screenshot with pagan AI missionaries in that last beta patch, I'm sorta wishing I'd waited for that... but since they also eliminated rebel pong, what I'm doing would probably be a lot harder.

And as for dealing with Ryukyu... If they get around to doing what I want them to, I'll just save them for last, just as they've finished the last conversion, or the year 1800 rolls by.

Kartos said:

erhm, I thought he was hoping for defecting to Ming.

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Nope, defections to Ming will only happen with Hindu rebels (if I'm lucky) or Chihan rebels (of which there are none to be spawned, since I own all Chihan lands). Ryukyu will be dealt with like a Pagan nation, in the end - complete, sudden annexation through war.

jhhowell said:

Impressively fast progress! Though I'm jealous of that missionary super-court you assembled - I haven't seen a single theologian in my game, let alone 15 stars worth.

I'm a bit puzzled by the Kyaukse and Taungoo force-conversions. I thought you demonstrated in the TO AAR that force-conversion requires that no neighbor province has the force-conversion flag, which lasts two years. Yet those two provinces converted nine months apart. Obviously I've misunderstood or misremembered something...

Do you have any plans to trim the Oirats a bit more? Their middle province should give you a way to get pagans into the ex-Mongol Khanate provinces, and eventually Manchu if you bother with converting same culture group provinces. It looked like you left the Cantonese provinces Confucian on an earlier screenshot, so I guess you do aim for same culture group provinces eventually.

Why the rush for QftNW? You must be pretty close to your second Idea slot anyway, and given your impressive pace so far I doubt a wait of a few years would matter.

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I'd actually not planned on converting that much, but when I found these many-star Theologians wandering around the open market, I jumped at the chance. Did make parts of that Russian tendril much more tranquil.

Actually, that's not what I demonstrated in the Teuton AAR... It's what I thought, true enough - but the reality is, as long as they have one bordering province of their religion without the force-conversion flag, they can convert the province they're in. Thus, if you spread the pagans around in a steadily growing circle, you can keep going almost indefinitely (or at least until the rebel group is completely destroyed). Since there are three animist provinces in South East Asia at game start, it's relatively easy to get going with that. It gets harder when you start pushing down thin bottlenecks, like the Himalayas or the Thai peninsula.

I've contemplated OPM'ing the Oirats, but I'm in no great rush to do so. It'd be a straightforward way to spread shamanism eastward, since I'll otherwise have to force-convert a Hindu Chihan province along the way. However, I would then run the risk of a Mongol Khanate rising up from the Oirat ashes, eliminating my favorite Pagan. I've had that happen before.

The southernmost Cantonese, I eventually left alone. Any Cantonese province bordering a Hindu Chihan one, I converted. The reason for that was a gamble on dumb luck and the 'cultural assimilation' event.

As for QFTNW... "close" in this case is still decades. Govt 9 was a tough climb, especially since my plan called for Production 9 and Workshops first. My income at this stage was nowhere near enough to fund the mega-army I'd need, much less more colonies and missionaries. Also... well, we'll get to that.

TonyJoe said:

With a nearly unified Iberia, QFTNW and a bunch of COT's it looks like you've found your colonial nemesis. I'm looking forward to all the fun you're going to have with Castile.

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Yeah, Castille would prove to be quite the headache... Along with a couple of other Europeans. At least Portugal was out of the running, for which I was very relieved.

Holland is still a bit scary. They have two CoTs, and are close to becoming the Netherlands, come the turn of the century.

Artr Thormodr said:

Yeah. Castille is going to be a Colonial powerhouse.

Hopefully you can take the Western side of the Americas and limit them in Asia.

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The good thing about them taking those CoTs is that those provinces were plenty rebellious, and gave Castille borders with several hostile Sunni nations - the sort that happily DoW since there is no stab penalty.

Asia will be my playground. I'll be damned if any European will make it here.

Turrosh Mak said:

Yes, the requirement is for at least one animist adjacent without the force-convert flag. Adjacent force-convert provinces do not hinder conversion.

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Precisely. I'm taking full advantage of this information, this time around. I'm hoping to do a better job than in the Teuton game - though I doubt I can stretch all the way to Europe by the 1800s. I'm in better shape in Ming 1500 than Teuton 1500 for animism spread, though.

Our former ally is forced back to their capitol province, increasing our frontier versus the Timurids.


The fleet construction program completes.


We award the Oirats with a live panda for their imperial zoo. We did not pick the most aggressive panda in China by mistake, and relations deteriorate once the panda mauls their zookeeper. We're charged with dealing with some rebels.


Alas, our rebel routing force could not arrive in time, and the mission is cancelled in favor of the Oirats.


Tribute paid to the late zookeeper's family eases tensions with the Oirats, at least until the counterfeit gold piece amidst the ducats is discovered. We care not; our task is to colonize Irian, the most hostile province we know of.


Emperor Hongzhi I argues for a more Naval approach, and so it is. Alas, many of our arsenals are deserted in the process, greatly reducing our investment in Land technology.


The war with Sind is brought to a close, awarding Ming with its fourth coastal Center of Trade. This is good, as they are currently our only source of colonists.


August 13th, 1470 - Dali is force-converted to animism.


Some time earlier, a suicide expedition did reach the Mexican coastline. While the three carracks, the explorer and all hands were lost, their explorations were still received at the imperial cartography office. The Emperor immediately summons a new explorer to the court, and puts him in charge of a fleet of cogs, designated to ferry a conquistador and ten thousand horsemen across the great, calm sea.

As soon as we make landfall, war is declared. It's January 13th, 1471, and Ming arrives in the new world, greeted by Mayan troops.


We need an anchorage. Tarasco is seized the moment our forces land.


The fleet sails in for badly needed repairs.


Our forces quickly move east. We claim another two provinces in order to secure a land bridge and a port in the Mexican Gulf. Fifty years from now, we might have a shot at colonizing the Caribbean islands. All depends on the Europeans' progress.

Since we need to secure these provinces, we do not go deep into Mayan lands, prioritizing the construction of forts in our new gains.


August 21st, 1471 - Bhutan is force-converted to animism.

October 13th, 1471 - Arakan is force-converted to animism.

Mars 23rd, 1472 - Koch is force-converted to animism.

Mars 25th, 1472 - Silhet is force-converted to animism.


Liangshan, a Cantonese province, embraces Chihan culture fully.


With Irian colonized, it is time to send souveniers from our southernmost colony to the Oirats.


Zapotec, a tiny nation in Mexico, is our next target. September 1st, 1472, we attack them. Maya rallies to their defense.


The colorful parrots from Irian are well received. We're tasked with colonizing the Siberian coastline. Unfortunately, we have no colonists left. This might thus take a while.


It is strange how Castille appears a much greater threat than the usual French nightmare. Will the ambitious Iberians take Alexandria as well?


As a stepping stone - and to prevent Europeans from gaining the same stepping stone - we settle Diego Garcia. The colonists were sent before we got our current mission.


As another stepping stone, we attack the tiny pagan nation of Mutapa on August 6th, 1473.


Since they have no gold reserves to speak of, we annex them outright. Our explorers continue around the Cape of Good Hope, seeking the sea route to Europe. This is sponsored by the West European Trade Company.


The expeditionary force is charged with mapping out the neighborhood, and we start a war with Swahili on June 1st, 1473.


Curiously, the Mamluks do not send out their navy at us - and we presume their land forces are busy repelling Castillian invasions.


August 13th, 1473 - Yunnan is force-converted to animism.


A Tribal Succession Crisis in a country you're fighting is never a good thing - especially if they have no forts. We lose much of our warscore in an instant.


As if that was not bad enough, the Swahili monarch emerges from terra incognita.

...of course, that six Shock rating would have been far more scary if he led a force of cavalry, rather than a bunch of spearmen.

darkbrokendisk said:

don't insult the oriat, that will reduce the relationship by 50, embargo them and then offer them trade agreement which they will decline. this way you only lose 20 relationship.

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Hrm... Well, that would work, but it'd save me maybe 1 diplomats and 20 ducats, versus the everlasting side-effects of having an embargo going. I'm not sure that is completely worthwhile, in the long run.

Mind, I hardly ever play around with Trade Agreements or Embargos. I'm no good at this 'free trade' style gameplay; I'm a very Mercantilist player.

enkhuush said:

Poor American and African natives.

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Now, now... they'll all be good Chinese citizens eventually.

MacroEconomics said:

I think you should be good to go for WC from this point on. Ignore Japan, Korea and everyone else in Asia for now. The effort requires to take those countries is much less once you get to about land tech 16 or so. And it's not as if their provinces are highly desirable. Yet. Instead send some regiments to Africa and seize one (but only one) of the pagan culture ports from Mali (it's Ok to take additional inland pagan provinces). That one pagan port province gives you a decent shot at getting a core claim on the other pagan port province. Once that happens you seize it and you can begin colonizing Atlantic islands and the Brazilian coast right away, without waiting 50 years - similar to the chance you have of getting a core claim from provinces adjacent to your Mexican holdings.

While you are waiting for the possible Atlantic core claim, build up a fleet and DoW Spain. Pick off their small fleet detachments, and burn any and all colonies they start up. Stay at war with Spain permanently. Literally for the rest of the game. Or at least until you start conquesting their home provinces. I've stayed at war with them (and Britain) for 150+ years. As long as it takes to paint the entire Atlantic coasts of North and South America with colonies. It doesn't cost much war exhaustion and it makes the transition time between Oirat missions lower (as do all wars). The big plus of course is that by fighting the Euros in the Battle for the Atlantic, you never need to fight them in the New World or West Africa.

You did get a bit lucky with your Western stab towards Sweden. Sometimes that strategy can be stopped dead in its tracks even with maximum Ming effort. The problem is that sometimes a conflict between Novograd/Muscovy and Golden Horde is won by Horde not the Russians. Then, even if you beat the crap out of Horde and get adjacent to the Russians, you can't discover their adjacent province. And that means you can't DoW them. You wind up stuck there for 100 years until you get QftNW the hard way (w/o shifts into more advanced tech groups). It doesn't happen that way all the time, maybe 30% of the time or so, but it's a significant risk with the Go West strategy.

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Barring my constant shortage of ducats, WC would be possible. I'll have to move relatively slowly from this point, until I've teched up enough to flatten any non-European nation. As for Mali, they were an inland OPM at this stage. Keep in mind that I'm playing far ahead of the AAR bits I'm posting, so any advice with less than a 50 year horizon are probably 'too late'.

As for burning colonies - that might work, but only if I was ready to replace them. Eventually, every liliput in Europe would be within naval range of the closer Atlantic islands and West Africa, and that could be bothersome to 'clean up'.

I've never had too much trouble with the 'Go West' gambit. Even when the Golden Horde has done well, it's possible to break through as soon as they're in a Tribal Crisis or at war in the far west. By the time they get back, you ought to have enough warscore for at least a few provinces - and continuing the war once their forces have returned west is easy, since they're liberal with their Guarantees.

Rather than slug it out against Mayan rebels and loyalists alike, we settle the matter for as many ducats worth of gold trinkets they can spare.


Shortly after, Maya collapses.


Our seafarers make their way up the coast of Africa, encountering the realm of Kongo. However, they are a secondary target, for now. With Castille busy and still out of Africa, the Emperor has hopes for an amazing overreach.


October 23rd, 1474 - Xishuan Banna is force-converted to animism.


Curiously, Madeira seems to be the only colony Castille has yet established, despite already having gathered a third National Idea.


The fight with Swahili is brought to a close, claiming a good portion of their coffers.


Then, Castillian ships are observed off the coast of east Africa. If you ever thought the AI only explores within their naval range, I'd say this disproves that. Natal is a good portion away from Gibraltar, their nearest core port.


Our intrepid Conquistador has finished his walk up the coast of the Mexican Gulf, encountering some of the North American tribes. This task achieved, he returns to recuperate and gather a stronger force.


Sadly, our African gambit might face disaster. Pagan Sokoto will not be able to defend against Castille. It is a small comfort that Castille did not manage to take any land from the Mamluks. The race for Sokoto is on.


September 13th, 1475 - Chittagong is force-converted to animism


We reach the coast of Gambia - and we immediately ferry in the forces from Swahili.


October 2nd, 1475, we attack Sokoto. Though they hardly see it as such, we are actually trying to protect them from a far more vicious attacker.


Gabu is secured. Alas, it does not look like we'll reach Trarza in time, and for that reason, we go for the province further inland.


Wolof is secured, just in time. Castille is now our neighbor.


Castille now attempts to circumvent Ming intervention by colonizing the coastline. Trarza is a point of contention.


A spy is sent to incite the natives, and the Castillian outpost burns. We must do this now, before Castille lands a dozen regiments there to wipe out the natives.


We manage to establish a settlement in Okhotsk, but West Africa is quickly heating up.