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Jan 20, 2000
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This AAR will be special, as I will concentrate on the diplomatical aspects of the game.
For this reason, I will try to achieve the ultimate goal of the diplomaty in EU, becoming Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, in the place of Emperor Johan :).
Election of the Emperor was a very important moment during this period of time, and long diplomatic moves were engaged by nations to obtain this title. Long negociations and big donations were the key to achieve such a goal, with sometimes the interventions of wealthy merchants like Fuggers.

in my AAR, I will exclusively focus on diplomatic game, to highlight to particular aspect of EU.

For this, I will play Charles VIII, king of France.

1492
So my objective in this AAR will be to become Emperor.
For achieve such a goal, I need to create a powerful alliance with France as a leader to compense the anti-French alliance of Spain and England.
However, France is already in alliance with Savoy and the Papal States. The objective of such an alliance is to go for Italy, but as history as learned me that Italy is the cemetary of France, I will first to transform this alliance into a powerful defensive alliance against Spain and England.
In europe, some country can be considered as friends of French: they are Poland, Tuscany, Scotland, Lorraine, and Bavaria.
On the other side some can be considered as enemies: Spain, England, Austria.

If I want to create a strong alliance, Scotland and Lorraine seems to be the best candidate. Scotland can be a good adversary for England, and Lorraine one for Spain.
I immediatly send a diplomat to scotland to propose to enter in the alliance, and Scottish agreed.
The first part of my plan, has been reached.
Now I decide to take 2 missions who were going to reflect my interest in diplomaty and in my strategy: have a royal marriage with Scotland (it shouldn't be too difficult), and the other vassalize Savoy (could be really more difficult). The two should be realized within 5 years. If I manage to relize them, I would gain some extra victory points rewarding my diploamtic game.

On februar 1492, the reconquista is over, grenade has fall.

May 1492:
without difficulty, I have been able to propose a marriage royal with Scottland wich increase even more my relation with them.

September 1492:
Strangely, Spain seems to have not react to my attemp to create a big alliance, and has not propose to Lorraine to join her in alliance. This is my chance, as I can send a diplomat there, and with my good relations they accept.
Now my alliance include: France, Scotland, Lorraine, Savoy, and Papal States.
As this alliance is a very strong one, I really doubt that anyone will join again to me fearing the French ambition.
So now my next objective will be to strenghend this alliance by all means, and trying to vassalize Lorraine and Savoy.

1493:
As I have choose the mission to vassalize Savoy, all my effort will go to there, and the remnants to strenghend army: 'Si vis pacem, para bellum'. If my army is strong enough Spain will never try to attack me, or pay the cost of such an aggression.
I immediatly send to Savoy a big state donation, wich is well received by Philippe II of Savoy. In return, he inform me that France can add Savoy to their friends.
On the other side of France, Lorraine accept to engage into a royal mariage, but still remains a good friend of Spain and Austria.

As I was fearing, the alliance seems too powerful for others nations, and Bavaria, a friend state!, refuse to enter into. This move in direction of Bavaria was motivated by the importance of Bavaria into the election of the Emperor. Damned, the way to Emperor will be difficult and long.

1494:
I still continue to send a huge donation to savoy, but this time, the donation is simply moderately appreciate, thus improving very lightly my relation with them. the thnig is that Charles VIII is not a strong diplomat, and that complicate my diplomatic attempt.

1495:
Charles VIII continue to be a poor diplomat. My donations to Savoy and Lorraine have little effect. Vassalize Savoy will certainly more difficult than I can imagine.
A old marriage with Portugal has ended. I didn't try to reproduce it, as I prefer reserve this to Electorate (And who would engage to someone that has already placed sons, daughter, nephews, old tants, cats and dogs in every European place?).

1496:
this time Charles VIII has been overperforming. Savoy subjugated by the French wealth and performance has accepted without discussion the first proposal of vassalization. Even if I was having this objective, it has been realy much less difficult than what I was thinking. Of course, money is one thing, but when you have not a great diplomat, it is always a pleasure to obtain such a result.

Now my objective is to made the same thing with Lorraine as Lorraine is part of the Holy roman Empire, and could be my entrance here.

1497:
Lorraine has been much more difficult to convinced to enter into vassalization. Charles VIII has tried the same procedure than with Savoy, but Lorraine has polited but firmly refuse to be vassal of France. It has been necessary to send a personnal gift to Rene II of Lorraine to convince him that vassalization will signify a much stronger alliance.


At this time, I have realized two importants objectives:
- create a big alliance to avoid a war with Spain or England
- vassalize Lorraine and Savoy to be strong on my eastern frontier.
Now the harder is to come: becomming Emperor.
For this I will need to wait that Maximilan I of Austria decide to died. I will have to do during this time the following objectives:
- convince as much elector as possibly that France is their best bank... friend, this is: their best friend.
- trying to avoid upseting someone by stupid action like declaring war on him.
- As all Elector are Catholic (for the moment), just consider that every Catholic countries are my friends (except perhaps Spain and England),
- Avoid war with Spain, or if not possible conduct it in the interrest of my allies, they will really appreciated if they gain territories.
I must really care of this point if I want to have a chance to win the election.
 
Interesting concept for an AAR. Exactly how does EU determine the winner of elections for Emperor? I would presume that good relations with the secular electorates helps a lot, but how do you get the support of the ecclesiastical electors? Also, can you follow the time-honoured historical path of bribing the electors for their votes?
 
After having securise France with the strong alliance, french ambition start to move on HRE electorate. To decide wich will be the Emperor, a vote will be decided at the death of the current emperor, and the new Emperor will be the most appreciated Catholic king by the majority of germans countries.
As I sincerely doubt that any germans will be pleased to enter in my big alliance (that is the reason: this is a BIG alliance), there remains only bribering to make me friends in germany. Most of the french treasure will then be affected to the task.

The situation in 1497 is the following:
Bohemia and Bavaria have already France as preferred country. Low effort will be necessary to bribe them.
With the rest of germans countries, my relation could be considered at best neutral. More problematic, some of them are very close to Spain (palatinat and cologne), or Austria (Austria of course, Wurtemberg) or even England (Hannover, and Brandeburg).
All this minors will be more difficults to bribe due to their high relation with other countries, I think I will need much more diplomats and money to convince them.

The other problem, is that French purse is not unlimited, neither the number of diplomat. At best, I will be able to send 2 or 3 diplomats a year, and I have to convince a lot of countries.

September 1597:
My first move is to send a diplomat in Wurtemberg in order to gain this country to my cause and make Austria loose it support from him. The diplomatic mission is a success as Wurtemberg is very please by my donation of 100 ducats. They become very dear friends of France.

October:
Bavaria declare war to Wurtemberg, wich call Austria to help: this is really annoying because if a one of them annex the other, I will lost one potential ally in the emperor election. I start to thing that this election will not be just pleasure.

1498:
Louis XII rose to the throne of France: he is better diplomat than Charles VIII, that will help.
During this year, I am able to bribe Baden, but Bavaria annex Wurtemberg. This action has for consequence to upset the whole catholic world, and relations of Bavaria plunged. In march, Bavaria cede Ansbach to Austria. Consequence of this war: I loose a potential ally, and Austria become bigger.

1499:
I continue to reinforce link (and bribe) with Bavaria.
Hungaria manage to take me the prefernce of Bohemia.
In may, I try to bribe Thuring but with no effect... This start seems not very good.
The only good news of the year is a war betweens Turkey and Mameluk, as Spain and England have allied with mameluk. Fighting turkey, will limited the possibility of Spain into increasing relations with germans nation (their gold will rather go to army).

1500:
continuing sending money in HRE, I am able to bribe Palatinat and Thuringe.

1501:
spain has increase efforts in direction of Cologne and Kleves, but their lack of ressource due to the war, give me the advantage on this two countries.

My diplomatic efforts will last the same way until 1507, when most germans countries have been bribe by french money.

At this time Louis XII decide alone that France should try to conquer Flandres before 5 years. If I don't want to loose victory point with this decision, I have to show carefully what can be done with Spain.
The problem is I don't want to declace war without a Casus Belli, and I didn't have one with Spain.
I will be obliged to found some way to make Spain declare war on me (so Spain will lost a lot of Stability as they too lack a CB).
Looking at the current allies of Spain, I discover that Cologne and Palatinat have join England and Spain in alliance. Having war with Spain will be a big error as this two states will hate me after this. More problematic, there is a great risk that with such allies, Spain will encounter no difficulty beating me.
I decide to wait, but I carefully watch what can be done.

September 1510: A new war Turkey against Mameluk/Spain occurs, but this time Cologne and the Palatinat don't accept to declare war on Turkey, and so leave the alliance with Spain, with a great loss of relation with it.
I start to imagine a plan: Spain will probably try to find new ally, and the most probable of them is Naples (who is already a vassal of Spain but not currently an ally). If I can degrade relations with Spain, they will probably immediatly allied, and as I have a CB for Naples (This is the historical reason for Italians war), I will be able to declare war to Spain indirectly without loss of stability.
This plan has certainly been inspired by an italian man called Machiavel ;).
To degrade easily relation with Spain, I decide to found an old link with the royal king, and thus France claims to everyone that the Spanish throne should be French by ancestrary right. Of course, this declaration has the wanting effect, as the Spanish king become really angry with France.
He immediatly decide to search an ally, and found ... Naples.
My diplomatic plan has worked, I have found my legal casus belli. The first Italian war will begin as I declare war on Naples.
 
Diplomatic AAR part 3: The Italian wars.

By a machiavelic diplomatic move, I have been able to declare war to Spain through their vassal Naples.

Before the declaration of war, the alliance were:
- Spain (leader), Naples, Mameluks
- France(leader), Savoy, Lorraine, Papal States, Scotland

As I have declare war on Naples, the temporary leader of the Spanish alliance will be Naples for the duration of the war and for every peace proposal with France.

After my declaration of war, Naples call his allies who immediatly join the war.
France call his allies, and first problem, Lorraine decline to not join the war. This movement was probably decided because Lorraine was still having very good relation with Spain. With the demission of Lorraine, I see half of troops of the alliance, against Spanish lowland province, not in war. This is a great shame.
Second problem, Papal States report that Napolitan is really bigger than expected, and that they will propably be crushed by Napolitan (15k men for Papal, 50k for Napolitan, and probably as much reserve comming from spanish sicillia.
France immediatly decide to launch a massive attack against Franche Comte (Spain), Roussillon, Artois, and send an expeditionnary force by see to rome.

One month later (Februar 1511):
French and allies army have been severely beaten everywhere: the Spanish Army in Franche Comte has destroyed the French army, and is now besieging Lyon, the expeditionnary force has been intercepted by the Spanish fleet, I have been throwing out roussillon, and Papal State have loose their army...
Naples proposed then a white peace in exchange of my promise not to attack them. As the situation is very critic for me, I prefer accept.
The first Italian war has lenght one month!

France need the rest of the year 1511, to heal wound.


1512: The second Italian war.
Spain has not really accepted that Naples decide to stop the war, and profiting from the current situation of the French army (very weak) decide to declare war on France. Of course this declaration is fully illegimate (no CB, and peace treaty still valid), and stability in Spain drop to the ground.
However his allies follow, but this time mine too: the Lorraine army will be able to help me.
Profiting from the situation in Spain (very low stabilty and most armies against me), the portuguese-english-navaresse alliance declare war to Spain two day after.
Spain start to regret his war declaration.

During spring and summer, the spanish armies are beaten nearly everywhere: in low land, the english army has intercepted most of spanish troops, while remaining spanish forces strugle with Lorraine and France.
In Franche Comte, Savoy destroy the spanish army and take Besancon. In roussilon, the French army has no ennemy, as the spanish army is blocked by Navarra forces. However, in the papal States, Spanish and Napolitans storm everything.
On 19 October, a brilliant news: my fleet in mediterranea has intercepted and sunk a spanish caravel comming from America. My capitaines have been able to take them Portulans indicating the maritime road to America.

30 November: after months of resistance, Navarra has capitulated and been annexed by Spain. As a consequence, most of catholic countries are upset and break diplomatic link with Spain. With this Spain nearly lost every chance to become emperor, but has more than 2* my troops on south. I have to make a quick decision if I don't want to loose war.

Januar 1513: exhausted by the war, Papal States is obliged to capitulate, and Spain decide to annex them by designing a new spanish pope. This time, the whole catholic world (except Naples) decide to simply stop every relations with Spain and consider them as ennemies.

Februar: to force a decision, I have 'secretly' marched on Madrid and take the almost undefended city. With such a loss, and even if spanish forces remains strong, I am able to propose a very avantageous peace treaty: Franche Comte and Artois will go to Savoy.
Behind such a strange treaty (France claims nothing!) here are the ideas:
- by giving all laurels to my allies, they are very pleased and I strenghend relations with them at no cost.
- I give territories to my vassal, and thus making from it a very helpfull ally.
- with no spanish province given to France, Spain don't have a legitimate reason to attack me (still no CB)
- claiming nothing for me with such a victory, give me a diplomatic boost with almost every minors.
- I claim less than what I could ask, so if Spain refuse, the risk of revolt become very high.

Of course, I propose this treaty to avoid to make war during as my troops are very, very weak. Spain has not a lot of choice, because of the capture of the capital, and accept the peace, but with high regrets.
I think that Spain will try something.

March: my army was still retreating from Madrid, than Spain declare that the precedent treaty has been forced, and declare war to me!

This time, the spanish army encounter a high resitance, because no reenforcement will come from Holland devasted by England.
a great battle occurs in Orleans with the victory of the Spanish army, and the retreat of french army in Picardie. Spain don't try to besiege Orleans and march to Artois through Ile de France. At this point, Spain made a big strategical error: to march quickier on Artois, their army has splitted in two: infantery march quickly on artois, while artillery protected by cavalery goes slower. I immediatly launch a sneak attack with my troops in picardy, and with some reenforcement of Lorraine, all spanish cavalry and artillery is destroyed. Spanish Infantery is destroyed few days after.
In south, french army has been reenforced by all savoians troops and capture with no difficulties roussillon and Gerone.
This time, the spanish army has been utterly destroyed, and agian they are obliged to leave Luxemburg, and roussilon to Savoy. (Note that I recidive with my strange treaty, but now the reason is that most my frontiers are covered by Savoy and Lorraine, who are Vassals: I have constituted 2 powerful marches, and war in national French province become nearly impossible).
More important, I can garnissoned my troops in my vassals provinces, giving them a supplementary protection.

This time Italian wars seems to have a conclusion:
- france has be able to take some importants province to Spain without diplomatic loses with others nations, thus becomming the 'good' guy of Europe.
- Spain has lost Franche Comte, Artois, Luxembourg, and Roussilon, but has gained papal states and Navarra, and thus becomming the 'bad' guy of Europe.
Few month later, they signed peace with England giving them Flandres (and the wealthy Center Of Trade) but gain O porto from Portugual.
I consider that the enormous diplomatic loss of Spain is the best effect of the war, as they will not find a lot of allies now. Future wars will certainly become interresting.
 
Time for peace.

After wars against Spain, it was time for me to come back to the election of emperor.
Having a look on my diplomatic mpa, it shows that France was remaining the prefered state of German Empire, so I didn't have problem here.
I decide to increse my link with Scotland until I can vassalize them.
In 1518, afer some tentatives, and a lot of money, Scotland decide to be my vassal.
I immediatly send a 10k army in Edimburg to cover Scotland from England.
normally, you can't send troops in a country without being at war with him, or being allied with him and in war with another.
But you can send troops in Vassals province, and your vassal continue to have his own army. Sometimes, it is much more better to have a vassal, rather than annex him diplomatically.

In 1519, Maximilien I of Austria died of old age, and without surprise, Francois I is elected Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire.
With this title, I will be able to cross the HRE without difficulties (Emperor has the right to walk through the HRE to make war were it think it is useful), eventually make France rule Europe.

France stand firmly as a major continental power, and thus has been achieved almost exclusively by his diplomats.
 
Sarges -
Congratulations on your brilliant diplomatic manuvering! I really enjoyed this AAR and it provided me with some insight into how the diplomatic aspect of the game can affect everything else.

Also, I really liked how you were able to use your military to your advantage, even though you were weaker than Spain you were able to gain two huge military victories that enhanced your diplomatic objectives.

I am curious, did you spend any money on technology improvements and infrastructure development, or did it all go into diplomacy?
 
Originally posted by Jiminov:
did you spend any money on technology improvements and infrastructure development, or did it all go into diplomacy?

Money come from basically 2 sources:
- one is direct taxes, and depend essentially of the number of province you own and the wealth of this provinces. This money goes directly into your treasury in the beginning of the year. Generaly, this money is used to pay merchants, armies, improvement... I have used this money for my diplomaty and a little bit to trade and army.
- the second source, come from trade, ressources... It is collected every month, and you dispatch it between research, stability, troops maintenance and money. But here, if you take this source to have fresh capital you will slower research and increase inflation. It is sometimes necessary to buy a costly improvement like manufacture. Here I haven't used this money except in research, and millitary maintenance.

Of course, having invest most of my treasure into diplomaty, signify that other aspects (improvements, colonization,...) have received nothing and are a bit late compaired to some other country.
However, I think that such a strategy is an interesting ones, as it can give you some decisive advantages, without inconvenients. If I have take all this territories from Spain for me, and annex Savoy and Lorraine, I don't think that I will be more powerful (my alliance is powerful not France alone), only much more wealthy.
 
Sarges......very nice, thank you. Interesting how almost a completely non-agressive stance paid off in a very big way for you, somewhat reminicent on the Venice AAR except more elaborate. Becoming the HRE is very nice.

Is there an economic benefit to the HRE position?

When sitting on the HRE throne are your Catholic allies more inclined to follow where you lead?
 
Originally posted by Dragon:
Is there an economic benefit to the HRE position?

When sitting on the HRE throne are your Catholic allies more inclined to follow where you lead?

Dragon:
I am not sure of your two questions, as I never played a emperor country long enough before this AAR. Perhaps, I will continue this AAR to see if converting back all HRE protestants to catholiscism is possible...
 
Great AAR Sarge!

If I may say so, you probably employed the shrewdest strategies I've yet seen in any AAR. (It would be nice playing a multi-player game with or against you :))

Gamewise your report has sparked two new concerns:

1) I don't like Spain's incredible aggressiveness despite its lousy stability and morally beaten armies. It reminds me of earlier AARs where major powers were annihilated due to their unreasoning aggressiveness.

2) What happens to the Dutch revolt if Spain doesn't hold their provinces in the late 16th century? France, England or a German principality could just as well occupy the Netherlands by then... IMO, the revolt would not be as likely under those circumstances.
 
Originally posted by Doomdark:

2) What happens to the Dutch revolt if Spain doesn't hold their provinces in the late 16th century? France, England or a German principality could just as well occupy the Netherlands by then... IMO, the revolt would not be as likely under those circumstances.

Actually it all depends on your tolerance towards reformed religion and what the state religion is.

/Johan
 
Originally posted by Doomdark:

1) I don't like Spain's incredible aggressiveness despite its lousy stability and morally beaten armies. It reminds me of earlier AARs where major powers were annihilated due to their unreasoning aggressiveness.

Of course Spain has lost 5 provinces, but has gained 4 during the same period. I consider that it is not an unreasoning aggressiveness. Much more, Spain is able to manage low levels of stability (there is no revolts here). And during the same time, Spain has expand and conquer most of Aztecs and Inca. I would say that Spain has become the dominant single power, but my alliance is far stronger than Spain alone.
 
Actually it all depends on your tolerance towards reformed religion and what the state religion is.

Aaah. That's nice... Thanx for answering that one Johan!
 
Originally posted by Johan:
Actually it all depends on your tolerance towards reformed religion and what the state religion is.

Does the Netherlands always revolt or is there a chance that it will remain quiet? Is there some type of option on the Dutch Revolt (i.e., always happens, random chance it happens, only happens with low stability like 'normal' revolts)? While I appreciate the value of the Netherlands historically, I would like the random option so it is not a foregone conclusion. They didn't have time machines in 1492. ;)
 
IMO this wonderfull AAR shows (again) the tremendous potential of this game...but it raises a big question to me!
The AI seems to play as good a military game as a human, but can it play such good diplomatic game as the one Sarge showed us?

Sarge thanks again for a great AAR
 
Originally posted by Henrique Duarte:
The AI seems to play as good a military game as a human, but can it play such good diplomatic game as the one Sarge showed us?

Perhaps AI is not able of doing as good as a human player when trying to obtain such machiavelic combinations, but you will be astonished by AI diplomaty. Some of their alliances are very powerful (exemple: once playing England, I have seen a Franco/Scottish/Savoyan alliance during 50 years and I have lost Calais to them). Sometimes, you think that time has come for war, and see that your adversaries will be too strong.
 
A perfect example of another way to play the game.

After starting this AAR game 'peacefully' eventually a war breaks out.

Where my question is aiming at is this: When playing the game an arms race or an ally/coalition race develops.
1. Is there no way to avoid a war due to these to races? I mean can you win the game by playing diplomatical only or is the AI always playing like these races?
2. Is the attitude of different countries different or is there one AI for all?
3. Does the AI set goals or do you have pre-set goals before the game starts?

These look like strange questions to you, but I like to understand the underlying idea of diplomacy. The diplomatic procedure of the AI mainly.

Well if you know the procedure then it would be easier to win I guess :) :D .

Thanks for such a nice AAR.
Geronimo.
 
1. Is there no way to avoid a war due to these to races?

Yes: try to have a bigger army than your adversaries. They will be less tempt to declare war.
2. Is the attitude of different countries different or is there one AI for all?

Some countries are very colonist, or merchants. Some are very aggressive.

3. Does the AI set goals or do you have pre-set goals before the game starts?
I'm not sure that there are pre-set goals but some goals will be here everytime (race for gold for Spain for exemple)
In all cases, you can have some surprises.

Well if you know the procedure then it would be easier to win I guess :) :D .

Thanks for such a nice AAR.
Geronimo.[/B][/QUOTE]
 
Originally posted by Sarges:

Well if you know the procedure then it would be easier to win I guess :)

Well, I always seem to lose at this game :) damn sneaky untrustworthy allies signing seperate peaces for good treaties when i need them the most..

/Johan