The Byzantine early breakdown and a possible way to fix it

[Arizal]

Until last week, I didn't experienced the Fatimids invading the Byzantine Empire, because I played either games started with a different version of the game, at a different startdate or with mods. I just tried a game as one of the venetian families and just when I discovered that the new DLC didn't prevent at all republics to expand by conquering Italy in few years, I saw the dreaded fiction becoming truth. Fatimids indeed invaded the ERE to take Greece, but left it totally untouched on the east side. I will say as many said before me : this makes no sense and it totally broke my immersion, already shakened by the very agressive republics I was dealing with when I though trade would be more subtle.

So, I humbly suggest to the developpers an idea that could be a potential fix to this problem. Make holy wars CB impossible to use if you are not bordering the land you mean to take. You would still have other CBs, of course, but this one, aiming at entire kingdoms, would be forbidden, for christian and muslims alike. What would you think of this, until we have a proper navy? While making an invasion of Ireland by muslims less likely, and also an invasion of North Africa by catholic less likely, it could stop the too early desagregation of the ERE.

 

[lelyanra]

Until last week, I didn't experienced the Fatimids invading the Byzantine Empire, because I played either games started with a different version of the game, at a different startdate or with mods. I just tried a game as one of the venetian families and just when I discovered that the new DLC didn't prevent at all republics to expand by conquering Italy in few years, I saw the dreaded fiction becoming truth. Fatimids indeed invaded the ERE to take Greece, but left it totally untouched on the east side. I will say as many said before me : this makes no sense and it totally broke my immersion, already shakened by the very agressive republics I was dealing with when I though trade would be more subtle.

So, I humbly suggest to the developpers an idea that could be a potential fix to this problem. Make holy wars CB impossible to use if you are not bordering the land you mean to take. You would still have other CBs, of course, but this one, aiming at entire kingdoms, would be forbidden, for christian and muslims alike. What would you think of this, until we have a proper navy? While making an invasion of Ireland by muslims less likely, and also an invasion of North Africa by catholic less likely, it could stop the too early desagregation of the ERE.

Funny you should mention that, I'm currently playing a game in which the byzantine empire actually took hungary entirely and even manage to sligtly expand into fatimid and suljuk lands.

I guess it all depends on the games, developers won't change randomness.

 

[unmerged(494787)]

The problem is rarely the Holy War CB. The problem is almost always the Invasion CB. Making that one require a land border, not so crazy (though Holy War needs to remain free, since that's how Denmark historically captured pagan lands across the baltic.)

 

[KroganElite]

I played about 5 games since patch for around 100 years and Byzantine is going strong in all of them. It goes to show the depth of the game and how much each game can diverge from one another.

 

[wormyguy]

The problem is rarely the Holy War CB. The problem is almost always the Invasion CB. Making that one require a land border, not so crazy

But that would make William the Bastard's invasion of England impossible in game terms...

 

[justin6477]

But that would make William the Bastard's invasion of England impossible in game terms...

Easy, just make 2 CBs called invasion. One for Catholics by way of The Pope, one for Muslims. Give the border requirement only to the second one.

 

[unmerged(7537)]

Easy, just make 2 CBs called invasion. One for Catholics by way of The Pope, one for Muslims. Give the border requirement only to the second one.

There are already 2 (technically 3 if you count tribal) invasion CBs in the cb_types.txt, you just need to pick the one that applies for Muslims.

Personally I changed the Muslim invasion CB to be applicable only against other Muslims, and it's worked fine.

 

[Dreamshifter]

But that would make William the Bastard's invasion of England impossible in game terms...

...I wasn't aware William was a Muslim...

The Christian Invasion CB is completely different from the Muslim one, and fairly balanced overall (though like any tool in the player's hands, can get a bit over the top). The Muslim one is... less so.

Regarding the OP, the Fatimids, in my experience, don't tend to Invade areas they don't border. But the ERE does usually share a border with them (a few counties down the coast) so unless you couldn't declare on anything but a neighbouring kingdom, even that wouldn't help much. The only place they do go that isn't on their border is Sicily, and it seems to me that there is a connection across the sea there to North Africa. Could just be that a single water zone counts as a connection as well, which isn't really such a bad thing.

Honestly, I've adjusted to the idea that there's a 50/50 chance the ERE will disappear in any game, so it doesn't bother me as much any more. Now, if the AI would just learn that keeping people in their De Jure areas afterward is a *good* thing...

 

[Kanin_Usagi]

Perhaps make invasions and holy wars only for a land border or a border which touches an ocean square which borders part of your land.

 

[Alerias]

The Fatimids should start with massive decadence to represent how much down on their luck they were in '66. Its perfectly reasonable as the Seljuks get a large Decadence reduction to reflect their strength.
Personally, I've long modded the Fatimid leader to have 60% decadence at game start, and the Fatimids still perform better-than-historically quite often, but there's no more 'invasions of Greece'.

 

[justin6477]

The Fatimids should start with massive decadence to represent how much down on their luck they were in '66. Its perfectly reasonable as the Seljuks get a large Decadence reduction to reflect their strength.
Personally, I've long modded the Fatimid leader to have 60% decadence at game start, and the Fatimids still perform better-than-historically quite often, but there's no more 'invasions of Greece'.

60 seems a bit high. Granted, 25% is the base level... I'd probably settle for 50.

 

[unmerged(7537)]

The problem is that the Fatimids start with most of their sons already landed, and they still have a large enough demesne to give out yet more land to extra sons. Meaning that they can quickly lower their decadence to manageable levels.

Unlike the Seljuks, who seeem to drown in decadence once their initial war with the ERE is over.

 

[Alerias]

60 seems a bit high. Granted, 25% is the base level... I'd probably settle for 50.

Sure, it can work. I personally tried both 50 and 75, and settled on 60 as a compromise. The fatimids were supposed to be in REALLY bad shape in 1066, after all. And they're pretty good at managing 50 somehow. 60 gave me better results in hands off tests.

 

[Alexandre_007]

i think that Fatimids should start with at least 75% decadence, plus a Sunni/Miaphysite realm. it would surely bring them down.