HRE Sub-project

[Twoflower]

I know that Arnou wanted to start this project, and I am sorry if I have done something he wanted to do, but I was bored and began thinking about what should be improved about the HRE countries. The most important issues in my opinion are:

1. The HRE needs to stay fragmented. We have to find some way to reduce the number of annexations and wars within the empire. Possible solutions so far are:
- A unified HRE as a fantasy option (possibly vassal of the emperor, and it should break up after the reformation or the thirty year war)
- all HRE members are vassals of the emperor. This would become difficult with ahistorical emperors, and there would probably be too much annexations.
- all HRE members are in one alliance. I have already tried this, and it basically works fine, but it usually dissolves after 20-30 years.
- there are some events that make a nation that conquered HRE territory release it as a vassal. The problem about this is that they keep the acquired BB points without significant gain
- Long peace treaties between all HRE countries (probably until 1648)
- Good relations between all HRE countries

2. HRE Meta events (events concerning the empire as a whole)should be reworked or added. The ones I have in mind are:
- Hussite wars
- peasant rebellion
- reformation
- defense against the Ottomans
- Thirty Years War
3. The empire should have a bit more influence; there could be some events like e.g. the Diet of Worms that emphasize its role.
4. Most HRE countries badly need events. AFAIK Austria and Brandenburg-Prussia are the only ones that have something like an event file in original EU, and some countries (Mantua, Savoy, Venice, Siena, Hannover) have events in the EEP, but most HRE countries completely lack events, which makes playing them boring. Therefore it is definitely necessary to script some events.

 

[Araanor]

Maybe giving all HRE minors peaceful.ai (with 0 aggressitivity) will make things better.

Originally posted by Twoflower
- all HRE members are in one alliance. I have already tried this, and it basically works fine, but it usually dissolves after 20-30 years.

You could give the alliance some crazy death date.

- there are some events that make a nation that conquered HRE territory release it as a vassal. The problem about this is that they keep the acquired BB points without significant gain

BB is nearly irrelevant to the AI. Experiment by giving France 80 BB in the GC, won't change the outcome even though they're in their weakest.

 

[unmerged(9384)]

I know that Arnou wanted to start this project, and I am sorry if I have done something he wanted to do

Do not worry about it, there needs to be colaberation for the HRE been done proper

*Coming Soon HRE specific random events*

 

[unmerged(8576)]

Originally posted by Twoflower
- there are some events that make a nation that conquered HRE territory release it as a vassal. The problem about this is that they keep the acquired BB points without significant gain

This seems like the best option to me.
And as Aaranor stated, BB doesn´t matter much to the AI.

 

[Twoflower]

Unfortunately, it does matter to the AI by causing BB wars. And the problem is that the big AI nations (especially France) get involved in those wars and take the relations hit for annexing without gaining new territory. IMO it is even a bit like cheating, because a human will not annex HRE territory because he knows that he cannot keep it while the AI does.

 

[unmerged(8576)]

Well, the AI does not get BB wars, AFAIK. At least not the traditional BB wars we´ve all grown to love and hate with equal passion.

 

[Twoflower]

But it does definitely get the relation hit for annexing, and this eventually causes wars and worsens their situation - without any territorial gain in return.

 

[unmerged(8017)]

WOW! The beginning of this thread is exactly what I tried to accomplish with "German EEP" but I did not have the time to keep the thread going....
and you are not looking for a collection of events for different countries within the Empire. In any case great idea for a thread.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

Originally posted by Oleg
Well, the AI does not get BB wars, AFAIK. At least not the traditional BB wars we´ve all grown to love and hate with equal passion.

Strictly speaking they don't, in that they don't get the wars where everyone declares war on you regardless. However BB makes it much more likely that AI nations will DoW if they think they can get away with it. This means that the AI WILL gang up on the BB even if there are no 'BB wars' strictly speaking going on. This happens to the AI Ottomans all the time, everybodyand his brother goes to war against them when they reach (I'm guessing) 20 BB points, and they lose gobs of territory.

 

[Araanor]

CBs, revolt risk, army size and size of country are more important factors. Relations even more so, you won't see an AI attack an AI they have 150 in relations with. In fact, what makes annexations dangerous to the AI is the demolished relations and temp CBs everyone gets at them, the BB plays a minor part.

Burgundy starts out in a war against a mighty foe, France, has small armies and some BB. If they would have started out with a sizable army they wouldn't get gangbanged.

 

[unmerged(9384)]

Anyone have HRE random event suggestions any oppinions welcome

 

[chegitz guevara]

One of the things you can do is create events that trigger on the death of a monarch, splitting any overly large HRE countries. If you look at a map of the HRE, not only does it not get united in this period (until Nappy comes along), it actually continues to split more and more. Only a few states in the HRE actually grow, Austria, Bavaria, and Saxony. (later, Brandenburg can be added to this list). This would require quite a bit of scripting and would only affect, HRE states.

 

[Truchses]

I would appreciate if the German Kingdom and the HRE could be implemented in the game as they existed historically, even with triggers. But as wrote already in the other threads, you all keep confusing them from one thread to another, and I guess this will develope into a fantasy scenario.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

How could they be implemented as they existed historically?

 

[Truchses]

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
How could they be implemented as they existed historically?

I don't know as you don't, but you discussing here how it can be done with events. I don't fear you wouldn't find a way. I only fear you base your events on a wrong concept of the HRE and Germany, and from the posts I read, I am sure you do.

I pointed this already out in some long posts. But I have the feeling they were not read, some people got angered about the length, and others who seem to have read them still misunderstood them.

There are permanently posts like conquering all HRE-provinces, claiming all HRE-provinces, claiming the throne of the german Emperor, etc. If you want this, you can of course make the specific triggers. But this are fantasia events, not historically possible decissions.

I wanted to and still want to contribute, but i don't want to bore and anger you and waste my time with long posts, if you don't want it. I got already some bad feedback on another thread, so I am cautious with contributing here. I have the feeling I already overtuned it with my posts on the German EEP and the United Germany and Italy EEP thread.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

I was neither bored nor angered, I just don't understand how events can be used to model the massively decentralized entity that was Germany in any reasonable way. I'd love to hear ideas that can be scripted.

 

[AlanC9]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
One of the things you can do is create events that trigger on the death of a monarch, splitting any overly large HRE countries. If you look at a map of the HRE, not only does it not get united in this period (until Nappy comes along), it actually continues to split more and more. Only a few states in the HRE actually grow, Austria, Bavaria, and Saxony. (later, Brandenburg can be added to this list). This would require quite a bit of scripting and would only affect, HRE states.

So, after each HRE monarch dies, his nation gets an event that releases all HRE vassals? I think this could be coded quite simply -- with a B option for a human player. Just have to repeat it a lot.

Obviously, we'd have to remove certain nations from that list (or from revolt.txt) after they're due to be annexed. But it's not too hard.

 

[Truchses]

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
I was neither bored nor angered, I just don't understand how events can be used to model the massively decentralized entity that was Germany in any reasonable way. I'd love to hear ideas that can be scripted.

But you all permanently are reflecting about that, and some have already written some events. I have also thought how this could be done. But it makes no sense to debate this, if obviously alle want a fantasy Germany. I am not interested in this. Even in the EEP thread no one was interested in events for the German Kingdom or the HRE. All posts were simply about conquering all lands and creating a new one. I am really not against this fantasy setting in the IGC2 if many people want this. But I want an implementation of the German Kingdom and the HRE of 1419.

 

[unmerged(9384)]

I am in favour for events for the HRE and a fantsey Germany I can scrip them. I demand research ideas for events and some support I look at it this way, events for the minors leading up to fantasy Germany it would be like stepping stones in a way. I have knowalage of history but could use help, ideas for HRE events and random events we got to stop talking about we want Germany this or that and the other thing. There needs to be a solid framework for this sub-project who is doing what I would like to see a packet of HRE minor events the first thing really significant added to AGC

My suggestion for positions (if people are onboard state position)
- Scripters
- Research (historic event ideas)
- Think Tank (fantasey event ideas)
- Odd jobs
- Suggestion giver

A person can be a combination of two
I would like to see useful constructive conversation here not just random demands.

I apologise for seeming a little harsh

 

[unmerged(10513)]

Well, I think the HRE Elector states should be able to vote on the next HR Emporer. As of now, its simply the most powerful nation or something (i dont know).
My suggestion is;

Say if you own Brandenburg, you get an event to chose the next HRE from a list of all electorate nation's leaders. Say, if you have conquered Brandenburg and Saxony, then you would get an event for each. The AI would pick randomly. The leader with the most votes after the events is picked as the HRE.

Just in case some dont know, a little history lesson.
In the HRE, the major German states made up a group of Electors. At the death of the Emporer, they would get together and vote for a new Emporer.
The Major electorates were Austria, Bohemia, the Palatinate, Saxony, Brandenburg, & Bavaria. However, Im not sure if it was just these or all of the leaders that voted. I do know that to vote, one had to hold the title of Elector.