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Jul 14, 2003
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I am playing Rumania and would like to have some tanks....how do I research them as I can not find a way to do so?
 
Singleton Mosby said:
I am playing Rumania and would like to have some tanks....how do I research them as I can not find a way to do so?

I'm going off of a slightly scatter brained memory here, so this may not be 100% correct. IIRC, you must reach a certain industrial level, and then opt for one of the tech paths, either domestic production or foreign purchase for Armor in the armor tech tree. I don;t recall at what level you get what though..
 
JRaup said:
I'm going off of a slightly scatter brained memory here, so this may not be 100% correct. IIRC, you must reach a certain industrial level, and then opt for one of the tech paths, either domestic production or foreign purchase for Armor in the armor tech tree. I don;t recall at what level you get what though..

Ok, it is now 1938 and I have done my best to get a good start on the industrial tree but still no panzers.
 
I don't think there are Industrial tree connections to the Armor tree, so there is something at play here with the Armor tree. Do you know if you can build various armor brigades? The ability to build an armored division we judged as too much for minors, so this might be the problem here, but you should be able to build some kind of armor-based brigade that you can attach to your infantry.

Playing as Hungary I didn't manage to build an armored division until 1940, or perhaps even later.
 
baylox said:
I don't think there are Industrial tree connections to the Armor tree, so there is something at play here with the Armor tree. Do you know if you can build various armor brigades? The ability to build an armored division we judged as too much for minors, so this might be the problem here, but you should be able to build some kind of armor-based brigade that you can attach to your infantry.

Playing as Hungary I didn't manage to build an armored division until 1940, or perhaps even later.

I can build light tank brigades.

And I am not a minor anymore....controlling all of the balkan/Italy/austria/hungray and Chech......... So, my most hardhitting units will become motorized inf with brigade attachment?
 
The game cannot be made to interpret such conquerings and move a "minor" to a "major" status. You still need to research Observers, Mech Cavalry and then 19xx Armored Division tech (or so, I'm just writing this from my head - this is what I had to do as Hungary, at least).

Let me know if it works out for you!
 
baylox said:
The game cannot be made to interpret such conquerings and move a "minor" to a "major" status. You still need to research Observers, Mech Cavalry and then 19xx Armored Division tech (or so, I'm just writing this from my head - this is what I had to do as Hungary, at least).

Let me know if it works out for you!

I will give it a try...:) Thanks a lot.
 
baylox said:
The game cannot be made to interpret such conquerings and move a "minor" to a "major" status. You still need to research Observers, Mech Cavalry and then 19xx Armored Division tech (or so, I'm just writing this from my head - this is what I had to do as Hungary, at least).

Let me know if it works out for you!


perhaps the armor tree could be altered in a similar fashion as the air-doctrines, enableing foreign purchase, but also enableing to go the way of domestic tank production, if one chooses to do so...
 
I think the minor/major distinction will cause problems, and be pretty unpopular. Mostly because there are a lot of players who manage ridiculously ahistorical expansions with minor powers. However it should be possible as either Nationalist or Communist China to unite China early and aim for major power status. If them why not Hungary, Romania and others? Maybe it shouldn't be entirely possible in the time frame (China and Japan took much longer than ten years) but a good start on the process should bbe possible.

At its heart aren't you connecting raw IC and minor/major power status? Is there any possibility of modding to create new 'research' buildings like reactors and rocket test sites? Existing major powers could get 'major industrial centres', 'tank schools' and 'domestic air industry' buildings - expanding minor powers could build them, at great cost, allowing feasible research of the gateway techs into Armoured divisions etc. Get enough IC together and you can gain major power status.

I'm guessing the game isn't that moddable, but it would be an interesting possiblity (though suspiciously akin to an RTS style of play)
 
Horza said:
I think the minor/major distinction will cause problems, and be pretty unpopular. Mostly because there are a lot of players who manage ridiculously ahistorical expansions with minor powers. However it should be possible as either Nationalist or Communist China to unite China early and aim for major power status. If them why not Hungary, Romania and others? Maybe it shouldn't be entirely possible in the time frame (China and Japan took much longer than ten years) but a good start on the process should bbe possible.

At its heart aren't you connecting raw IC and minor/major power status? Is there any possibility of modding to create new 'research' buildings like reactors and rocket test sites? Existing major powers could get 'major industrial centres', 'tank schools' and 'domestic air industry' buildings - expanding minor powers could build them, at great cost, allowing feasible research of the gateway techs into Armoured divisions etc. Get enough IC together and you can gain major power status.

I'm guessing the game isn't that moddable, but it would be an interesting possiblity (though suspiciously akin to an RTS style of play)
I cannot say that I've heard any complaints about the current system so far, but then again most play either of the major powers.

What we've done is decide which nations are "major" or "minor" depending on what they were historically. As far as industrial quality (the Agricultural, Semi-Industrialized and Fully Industrialized techs) we have decided that during the current time-frame it isn't possible for a nation to change status here - the changes required are simply too vast to conquer in that short a time (regardless of how many IC you gain during the game - this isn't connected to IC). As for how the other trees are designed (Armor, Infantry and Aircraft)... I can't answer for Armor/Infantry, but the Air tech tree does allow for this type of expansion, though it is very time-consuming. I judged that such expansion should be possible. As for tanks - the apparatus revolving around designing and building tanks is very large and this is why few nations actually produced their own designs (there is a big gap, apparently, between being able to design your own and just build a foreign design). Again, I'll have to let McNaughton respond to this since he is responsible for the infantry and armor/artillery trees.

Note that I will be tightening down the ability for minors to develop their own Aircraft industries (so it is more streamlined - not necessarily more difficult), which will also take care of the problem reported by someone developing their own industry while not gaining access to certain aircraft types).
 
Czechoslovakia is at least one exception to the rule. It is obviously by all measures a 'minor' power, yet it had a tank industry that was at least as advanced as that of Germany's (if not better). Many German divisions even as late as 1942 were primarily equipped with Czech tanks. If you want a real rationale for Czechoslovakia (or others) to not have tank divisions, you must look at doctrine and training, not technology, because the example of Czechoslovakia contradicts your argument.
 
As you say it is not a technology question, it is a matter of doctrine - if you look at how these techs are described within the game you'll see this (it doesn't matter if it is located under a "technology" tab). If it had been a technology question, then Czechoslovakia wouldn't be able to research advanced tank brigades, which I think they can.

Did Czechoslovakia field actual armored divisions?
 
baylox said:
Did Czechoslovakia field actual armored divisions?
No. They did the same thing with their armor as the French. The closest thing the Czechs had to a real armored division was 4 motorized divisions. However, as I said, it was an issue of doctrine and training. The Czechs actually had more tanks (and better ones) in 1938 than the Germans did.

I just took exception to you using "apparatus revolving around designing and building tanks" as a rationale for minor nations not having armored divisions. That may hold true for most nations, but not all. As long as the only thing preventing a nation like Czechoslovakia from having armored divisions in CORE is not having (yet) researched the proper doctrine, I'm fine with it. Czechoslovakia should have the same opportunity to build armored divisions as France has.
 
In my current Hungry game (currently early '43), I've run into the same situation, no armor divsions, but can build the armor birgades. Figured it was by design, I can understand it, and live with it. But..... I think this is going to be a sore spot with a lot of people.

If a human is playing a minor and they become an 'uber-minor' which the game can't really stop, they're going to want armor. Historical possibility is already pretty much out of the game by this point. To accomidate these flights of fantasy there should be a 'policy change' somewhere down the tech tree, a tech that comes late (1941ish?) and takes forever to research and cost money, that would allow a human player to backtrack down the armor tree and get armor divsions. If the minor is controlled by the AI, the yet to come tech/research AIs should put the policy change tech on the ignore list.


Also reguarding the uber-minors. Someone will evetually need to take a good look at TC and partisan activity. Atleast on normal difficulty, It's pretty easy to expand a minor's borders with no real negitive effect. An example, as Hungry I've taken Chek, Rom, Bul, Tur, Greece, Egypt, Iran, most of Africa, and a huge chuck of USSR (which I gave back in the bitter peace) My TC was NEVER overloaded even after I switched out all my IC ministers for others.
 
Czechoslovakia is also able to research the full armour technology tree, representing its proficiency in armour development. Also, most of their armoured forces were (as said above) mainly motorized infantry forces with armoured units attached (like French DLC, German Light Divisions, Italian Celere Divisions). Not really armoured divisions, but, there was the potential (should Czechoslovakia survived) of developing such forces (even developments of medium tanks were under way). All other nations relied primarily on foreign equipment, or foreign design (in cases of Hungary and Sweden foreign designed equipment re-designed to suit their needs) for their armoured forces. Units were increasingly obsolete as time goes by, but, utilization of older equipment, with newer organization, was the strength of these minor nations.

I personally don't agree with the determination that a nation 'may' be unrealistically large, meaning that they should be able to get access into the full armour technology section.

The current system will allow for minors to develop their own armoured forces, but, not to the same individual level as a major nation.

In 0.2, the tree will be different than it is, slightly easier for a 'foreign tank design' to get off the ground. You will get some useful wartime units (starting in 1940 you get your armoured division), but, are NEVER going to be able to fight 1:1 vs. a major nation.

Minor nations will primarily be based around the Light Tank, until 1944 when they get a medium tank (which is, realistically, a 1942 era tank), and in 1945 when they get access to an early version of 1943 Main Battle Tanks (such as the Panther, T-34, Comet Mk.I, etc.). There is a future in minor tank design, but nowhere near that of a major nation.

This is a WAD and will remain as such. People may expand at their own leisure, but, will still have the same industrial potential for armoured vehicles. I cannot, and will not, cover all possibilities. Major nations will recieve a bonus for armoured warfare, as it was very realistic that they were ahead in such development and production. If a Minor nation gets big, that means they can just field more of their own armoured divisions.

In 0.2, Minor nations will have access to...

#1. The full Light Tank Tree (barring 1936 division).
#2. The full Infantry Tank Tree
#3. Limited access the recon tree (1938 Scout Car)
#4. Their own Medium Tank tree (resulting in a comparable 1944 armoured division to majors)
#5. Their own Main Battle tank tree (gives them a 1943 MBT or up-gunned 1943 Medium Tank)

In 0.2, minor nations will be totally locked out of...

#1. Heavy Tank tree
#2. Tank Modifications tree (TD and SP-Art)
#3. Major nation Medium Tank tree
 
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ShadoWarrior said:
No. They did the same thing with their armor as the French. The closest thing the Czechs had to a real armored division was 4 motorized divisions. However, as I said, it was an issue of doctrine and training. The Czechs actually had more tanks (and better ones) in 1938 than the Germans did.

I just took exception to you using "apparatus revolving around designing and building tanks" as a rationale for minor nations not having armored divisions. That may hold true for most nations, but not all. As long as the only thing preventing a nation like Czechoslovakia from having armored divisions in CORE is not having (yet) researched the proper doctrine, I'm fine with it. Czechoslovakia should have the same opportunity to build armored divisions as France has.

Actually, if you would look, Czechoslovakia has access to the full armour tree....

Anyway, minors do get armoured divisions, just not to the same level of armour as major nations. Their units will use older equipment, lighter equipment, and fewer individual tanks per division. Looking at the few nations who actually developed armoured divisions that were not the major nations (Canada and Australia are lumped in with Czechoslovakia, and get the full tree), being primarily Spain, Romania and Hungary, their divisions tended to be full of old equipment, and usually not the same amounts of equipment, as comparable contemporary major nations.
 
Don't want to flip-flop too obviously here, but I think I can live with this quite happily. My original examples of China and Japan who acquired power status from lowly beginnings both relied on the existing major powers' industrial products to help bootstrap their advancement for decades, so it seems fair enough.

Actually I'm now intrigued by the limitations on the larger minor powers - should be an interesting puzzle to shoot for superpower status without 'proper' armoured divisions etc. And the Czechs suddenly become a much more interesting minor to play of course ;-)
 
baylox said:
I don't think there are Industrial tree connections to the Armor tree, so there is something at play here with the Armor tree. Do you know if you can build various armor brigades? The ability to build an armored division we judged as too much for minors, so this might be the problem here, but you should be able to build some kind of armor-based brigade that you can attach to your infantry.

Romania had a tank division in 1941.

The Czechs actually had more tanks (and better ones) in 1938 than the Germans did.

And Sweden had a better tank industry than Czechoslovakia, although not as large.

All other nations relied primarily on foreign equipment, or foreign design (in cases of Hungary and Sweden foreign designed equipment re-designed to suit their needs) for their armoured forces.

Incorrect. Swedish tanks were developed by Swedes. In addition, a number of tanks were bought from Czechoslovakia. It is true however that the Hungarian Toldi I tank was a redesigned (and downgunned) Swedish L-60 tank.

Anyway, minors do get armoured divisions, just not to the same level of armour as major nations. Their units will use older equipment, lighter equipment, and fewer individual tanks per division. Looking at the few nations who actually developed armoured divisions that were not the major nations (Canada and Australia are lumped in with Czechoslovakia, and get the full tree), being primarily Spain, Romania and Hungary, their divisions tended to be full of old equipment, and usually not the same amounts of equipment, as comparable contemporary major nations.

Why not simply make the standard tech tree decide this? Minor countries have substantially lower IC than do majors. Hence, their tank formations will trail behind those of bigger countries anyway. Why punish small countries with an inferior tech tree just because they are small?

And if a minor grows big, why should it continue to be punished with an inferior tech tree?
 
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