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TeutonicKnight

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While I expect to get flamed for this post, please read it open minedly.

Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor officially began the Pacific War, but American foreign policy misjudgements helped bring about the attack. Among complicated negotiations between the US and Japan, two unreasonable policies of the US are prominent:

1. The demand that Japan withdraw from Indo-China and China.
2. The imposition of an embargo on oil and scrap iron.

Concerning Indo-China, Japan occupied it legally, although the Vichy government would have been powerless to resist militarily.

On China, the US was influenced by propaganda to support Chiang Kai-shek early in its war with Japan. The support was largely engendered by the tradition of 100 years of missionary work in China, and the picture of Chiang and his wife as peace-loving Christians, leading an oppressed democratic people against Japan's militarists.

Henry Luce, born in China, encouraged this attitude, putting the Chiangs on the cover of "Time" magazine as "Couple of the Year" in 1937. Chiang's was a one-party government, complete with secret police and censorship. As a military leader, he was inept. But Americans were bombarded with pro-Chiang publicity, and the considerable power of the Communist opposition was ignored by the media.

American policy towards Japan was influenced by an unrealistic appraisal of the Chinese situation, and by the British government, which persistently attempted to persuade the US to be more severe in its dealings with Japan--undoubtedly to further its own Empire interests. FDR said during the war that the US was not in the war to preserve the British Empire. Yet, British influence on American policy toward Japan had that goal, and American demands on Japan reinforced it, although perhaps unwittingly.

I don't believe that Roosevelt intended to provoke Japan into attacking the US. Certainly, the US had its own Pacific territorial interests to protect. Rather, American policy was dictated by arrogance and a nearly fatal under-estimate of Japanese capabilities and determination. I do not absolve Japan from atrocities in China, from its own ambitions to build an empire, or from the Pearl Harbor attack, although the attack made sense from the Japanese point of view, given the unacceptable demands by the US.

Japanese historians today maintain that the attack was as much an attempt to save face rather than accept America's terms, as it was to paralyze American power in the Pacific.

Considering that Japan imported 80% of its oil products from the US, as well as 90% of its gasoline, 74% of its scrap iron, and 60% of its machine tools, it seems improbable that the US would seek to impose an embargo without expecting some response from Japan. When the attack came, it was stunning in its scope, power,and direction--a testament to crucial miscalculations in American foreign policy.
 
Well, from what I know of history none of the great powers of that time would be very likely to surrender their imperial ambitions without a fight. From a Japanese point of view the Chinese Incident cannot have looked much different from various European colonial wars of annihilation in the 19th and early 20th century, the not-distant-at-all past. The Germans in south-west Africa, the British in Australia etc. And the concept of 'grab as much of China as you can' had been the European national pastime just a few short decades earlier. This isn't really what the question is about, but I think it has some bearing on it.

The US government must have known that Japan was extremely likely to lash out when faced with the American actions prior to Pearl Harbor. Wasn't that why the Pacific Fleet had been moved to Pearl in the first place?

But to determine whether the Pacific War was "Japan's fault" or not has more to do with morals in my mind. Did the US perform actions that forced the Japanese to choose between attacking the US and the European colonies and shelving their imperial ambitions? Yes. Was it politically reasonable to demand of a major power that it should give up a struggle for dominance of what it considered its regions of interest (China in this case)? Judging from British and above all French (both US allies) actions in SE Asia after the war, no. Did Japan act, in purely political terms, any different from how the Western European powers had acted when it comes to war, conquest and empire? No. Did the Japanese behave so morally objectionable that stopping their fury of destruction in Asia was a legitimate goal in itself? In my mind, yes (though I am not saying that this was the driving force behind Western decision-making at the time).
 
The US government must have known that Japan was extremely likely to lash out when faced with the American actions prior to Pearl Harbor. Wasn't that why the Pacific Fleet had been moved to Pearl in the first place?

While its true that America moved its fleet to Pearl Harbor in 41, FDR and the powers that be didn't think that Japan could get there with a large fleet. The Pacific fleet, after all, was thousands of miles away from the roaming of the IJN and, in theory, the IJN would be seen if they came within a few hundred nautical miles of Hawaii. Not to mention FDR figured that Japan would declare war, which before the turn of the century had asked the US to teach them how to be more diplomatic.
 
I know that they didn't expect an attack on Pearl Harbor itself, but the fact that the Japanese attacked Pearl and not just other US installations in Asia is just a minor detail in this context, right?

If FDR seriously expected Japan to not use a surprise attack (against whichever targets) and issue a formal declaratiuon of war before starting any hostilities then that is strange. Or maybe not so strange given the fact that AFAIK the Japanese tried to get a a DoW delivered before the attack while maintaining tactical surprise. But regardless of those efforts of etiquette and the exact timing of DoW:s the surprise attack as a pretty standard way of opening hostilities was well established by the fall of '41. Denmark, Norway, Belgium, The Netherlands, Poland, Russia and others had AFAIK been attacked in that manner. If the US leaders truly did not expect the Japanese to do the same then that was a serious blunder, and one that is not easily explained. That they didn't expect an attack on Pearl however is no worse than many other miscalculations by all sides in the war, and pretty understandable.
 
I recently read this one book about Japans history and it said that that the japanese declared war before the pearl harbor invasion but the declaration never reached the U.S government because of some cockups in the Japans embassy in USA. Has someone heard anything similar to this, I haven't and I don't know if to believe this or not.
 
I know that they didn't expect an attack on Pearl Harbor itself, but the fact that the Japanese attacked Pearl and not just other US installations in Asia is just a minor detail in this context, right?

It is minor, however, the real culprit is the gross miscalcualtion on behalf of the United States that Japan could/did not have the logistical support to carry a campaighn outside of the Mariannes(SP?) without the United States at least knowing about it.
 
Originally posted by Folt-leabhar
I recently read this one book about Japans history and it said that that the japanese declared war before the pearl harbor invasion but the declaration never reached the U.S government because of some cockups in the Japans embassy in USA. Has someone heard anything similar to this, I haven't and I don't know if to believe this or not.

Well-the Japanese embassy received a communication to be passed on to the American government half an hour before Japan was supposed to strike Pearl Harbor (curiously, the Americans from their codebreaking efforrts knew this, and that the message would be important, but not exactly what the contents would be.) Unfortunately, only one member of the Japanese embassy staff could, or was authorised to, decipher the code. He was not a particularly fast typist, it was a difficult code, and he was using an antique typewriter (I believe) so the message was translated late, and thus presented late.

However, the question then becomes "would the Americans have understood that the message was a declaration of war"? I would imagine not, since the message made no mention of war, but rather was along the lines of breaking off the talks, and with a mention of other measures (Hannibal Barca can probably provide us with a link to the full text.) While sufficuent for a language and culture as used to subtleties as Japan this would be sufficient, we would probably still have America calling foul to this day under Japan;s preferred circumstances.

I personally believe that the USA backed Japan into a corner from which the response was entirely predictable. The USA overplayed its' hand rather badly, and then reaped the consequences. I place the blame for the war on both sides, but the circumstances prevailing at the time are mostly of Japan's making, I admit.

As an aside, American hostility to Japan seems to have existed pre-China, given the way the Americans forced the British to divest themselves of the Japanese alliance in connection with the negotiations for the Washington treaty.
 
Originally posted by Agelastus
,,,I personally believe that the USA backed Japan into a corner from which the response was entirely predictable. The USA overplayed its' hand rather badly, and then reaped the consequences. I place the blame for the war on both sides, but the circumstances prevailing at the time are mostly of Japan's making, I admit.
I do not agree on that US have any responiblity for the outbreak of the war, the failure at Pear Harbour is however to partly caused be misstakes by the US.
 
Originally posted by The Brain
If FDR seriously expected Japan to not use a surprise attack (against whichever targets) and issue a formal declaratiuon of war before starting any hostilities then that is strange. Or maybe not so strange given the fact that AFAIK the Japanese tried to get a a DoW delivered before the attack while maintaining tactical surprise. But regardless of those efforts of etiquette and the exact timing of DoW:s the surprise attack as a pretty standard way of opening hostilities was well established by the fall of '41.

I find it extremely odd that the US did not expect a surprise attack by Japan, because a lighting surprise attack [pre-declaration of war] to neutralize the enemy's fleet was very much Japans' trademark. Not needing to go all the way back to the invasions of Korea [yes, even the 1592 one], the Russo-Japanese War began with a surprise japanese attack on the russian fleet at Port Arthur that nicely disabled the Russian Far East Fleet [why do you think that the Tzar had to order the fleet at St.Petersburg to sail all around the world to Japan?].

And if I remember correctly, the US newspapers of the time applauded the japanese 1905 surprise attack on the Russians as a «daring», «cunning» and «brilliant» plan. Somehow they magically changed their minds about the merits of these strategy when it was used against them.

Regards,
Keoland
 
Originally posted by Keoland
And if I remember correctly, the US newspapers of the time applauded the japanese 1905 surprise attack on the Russians as a «daring», «cunning» and «brilliant» plan. Somehow they magically changed their minds about the merits of these strategy when it was used against them.

What I find most surprising is that you would find this a important. What exactly do you expect, praise for a surprise attack on their own country?

If an embargo should be reasonably challenged by war then of course the US is equally guilty of war. In that case, the EU would be quite rationally attacked by the former Yugoslav Republics during the Balkans War, Britain should be expecting a Rhodesian response to it's embargo in the 70's, and the entire world waiting for an Iraqi attack.

I guess South Africa would have been justified in attacking all her neighbours, then the entire world.
 
Originally posted by sean9898
.........and the entire world waiting for an Iraqi attack.

I guess South Africa would have been justified in attacking all her neighbours, then the entire world.

An embargo placed by one country on another has never been seen as a friendly act-the USA was not operating as part of any international organisation in 1941. Such an embargo would be regarded (to quote the game we all play here) as a legitimate Cassus Belli for most of history. The only possible Japanese response to the USA's actions was war-which means that the USA, acting blindly or not, cannot be absolved of all culpability for the war or the Pearl Harbor incident.

Blaming one side entirely for a war is part of the reason we got into the WWII mess we did. Certainly in the last two centuries there's very few wars where one side is entirely blameless of provocation prior to the war breaking out, even if that has to be traced back to events twenty years earlier.

As to the above two quoted examples-well, I for one suspect the Iraqis have been trying to attack us over the last few years, and it could be argued that attacking her neighbours is what South Africa did................:)
 
Originally posted by Agelastus
An embargo placed by one country on another has never been seen as a friendly act-the USA was not operating as part of any international organisation in 1941. Such an embargo would be regarded (to quote the game we all play here) as a legitimate Cassus Belli for most of history. The only possible Japanese response to the USA's actions was war-which means that the USA, acting blindly or not, cannot be absolved of all culpability for the war or the Pearl Harbor incident.
Correct, which is why the problem lies far deeper than just an embargo. The US either underestimated Japan, thought Japan was too remote to strike out, or deliberately engineered a war.
Blaming one side entirely for a war is part of the reason we got into the WWII mess we did.
I think the American reaction to PH is more the shock factor, being vunerable, expecting a gentlemanly DOW, and being caught with pants not merely around the ankles, but still hanging in the closet.

Of course no one side is usualy blameless in a war, but one must consider what is a reasonable response to US pre-war actions. Remember, though acting outside the L of Nations, the US was acting in a manner not isolated from the world reaction to the Japanese invasion of China.

As for blaming a nation, I really find it exagerrates, and exhonorates the position of 1939 Germany. War continued almost ceaselessly in Europe for 1000 years, not always because an aggrieved nation found herself treated harshly.
 
Originally posted by sean9898


What I find most surprising is that you would find this a important. What exactly do you expect, praise for a surprise attack on their own country?


We don't expect it - from Russians, Americans, English, Haitians or anybody else. It's just useful to have pointed out the hypocrisy of people's positions from time to time. As far as the particular subject under discussion goes, the hypocrisy is that of America, but every other country in the world has done the same thing. Don't feel singled out.

If an embargo should be reasonably challenged by war then of course the US is equally guilty of war. In that case, the EU would be quite rationally attacked by the former Yugoslav Republics during the Balkans War, Britain should be expecting a Rhodesian response to it's embargo in the 70's, and the entire world waiting for an Iraqi attack.
I guess South Africa would have been justified in attacking all her neighbours, then the entire world.

Yes, in all cases, if people today still used the moral code of the 19th century. That's why we tried to establish a United Nation which would be above any one particular country, and would always operate in the best interests of the world as a whole. As is so often pointed out, so far the concept has been a fairly enormous failure. But we can still hope :)
 
Originally posted by sean9898
Correct, which is why the problem lies far deeper than just an embargo. The US either underestimated Japan, thought Japan was too remote to strike out, or deliberately engineered a war.

Yes, it's quite a paradox-the best explanation is that the Americans deliberately engineered a war, or the circumstances for one, without ever quite realising what they were doing.

They certainly pushed their demands too high but circumstances (the weakening of European power in SE Asia) certainly worked against the Americans' intentions too. It's interesting to note that without Germany's rampages in Europe, the Japanese culd very well come to have realised that China was a stalemated war, and got out with some face-saving concessions. After all, one of the reasons they did decide to strike was a realiation that they lacked te resources to push the "China Incident" to a satisfactory conclusion.
 
Originally posted by Keoland
I find it extremely odd that the US did not expect a surprise attack by Japan, because a lighting surprise attack [pre-declaration of war] to neutralize the enemy's fleet was very much Japans' trademark. Not needing to go all the way back to the invasions of Korea [yes, even the 1592 one], the Russo-Japanese War began with a surprise japanese attack on the russian fleet at Port Arthur that nicely disabled the Russian Far East Fleet [why do you think that the Tzar had to order the fleet at St.Petersburg to sail all around the world to Japan?].

And if I remember correctly, the US newspapers of the time applauded the japanese 1905 surprise attack on the Russians as a «daring», «cunning» and «brilliant» plan. Somehow they magically changed their minds about the merits of these strategy when it was used against them.
This leaves only one example of modern Japan attacking without a declaration of war. Also, Japan had at least severed diplomatic relations with Russia prior to attacking. Furthermore, the attack on Pearl Harbor can also be described as "daring" and "cunning" without morally exonerating it.
 
Originally posted by Dark Knight
This leaves only one example of modern Japan attacking without a declaration of war. Also, Japan had at least severed diplomatic relations with Russia prior to attacking.

Well, taking into account that modern Japan only came into being in 1868 with the beguinning of the Meiji Era, «modern» Japan was in 1941 73 years old. In that period of time, Japan was involved in two foreign wars: The first Sino-Japanese War (1895) and the Russo-Japanese War (1904-05).

Since the Sino-Japanese War began when the Japanese Navy launched an assault without a declaration of war on the soldiers' conveyors of the Q'ing army at Hainan, Fengdao (outside Yashankou, Korea), I guess that left «modern» Japan with a 100% record of suprise attacks on enemy fleets before Pearl Harbour... in fact, I'd say that, if your foe is Japan, the question is not how they will beguin the war, but where can they make a surprise attack on your fleet.

Originally posted by Dark Knight
Furthermore, the attack on Pearl Harbor can also be described as "daring" and "cunning" without morally exonerating it.

Quite, but the fact is, the US newspapers never condemned the attack as «treacherous»; they portrayed it as a great way to take your enemys' military fleets out of the way as soon as the war started, not as a «morally reprehensible» attack. And it sounds awfully hypocritical of the US to call the Pearl Harbour attack as «infamous» and typical of a cowardly nation only because this time the pepper was in its eyes.

Either you condemn ALL suprise attacks, or you condemn none - especially if they're aimed strictly at military targets.

[and the US never did condemn Israels' initial suprise attacks aimed at military targets against Egypt, Syria and Jordan in 1967, which marked the beguinning of the Six Days' War, did it?]

Regards,
Keoland
 
Originally posted by Keoland
And it sounds awfully hypocritical of the US to call the Pearl Harbour attack as «infamous» and typical of a cowardly nation only because this time the pepper was in its eyes.

Either you condemn ALL suprise attacks, or you condemn none - especially if they're aimed strictly at military targets.
Do you realize what you are saying. You expect non-subjective journalism in a time of war. You expect the editors of newspapers on December 8th 1941 to suddenly remember that a predecessor praised a Japanese surprise attack?
 
Would Japan have attacked the PH at all if they hadn't won the Russo-japanese war? Wasn't it that the japanese thought that the victory over Russia was gift and sign from gods(as Russia was much larger and powerful) and that the gods would favor their military efforts in the future. And their victories during WWI and after that just strenghtened that idea.
 
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Well, if Japan had lost the war with Russia, her modernization plans would have been severely curtailed. As it was, Japan's meteoric transformation from a feudal to a modern (more or less) nation in the space of 40 some years, easy victories against China and Russia, meant that a clash with the US and/or Britain would be inevitable, especially after WWI. IIRC, one of the US war plans during the 1920s called for fighting BOTH Britain and Japan. Now that would have been an interesting, albeit unlikely, what-if!

Grr, why should Turtledove have a monopoly on WI books? On this forum alone we have dozens of history buffs, academics, strategists etc. We should pool our great resources and write a spanking trilogy. Hannibal can lead off. :D
 
Originally posted by Keoland
Quite, but the fact is, the US newspapers never condemned the attack as «treacherous»; they portrayed it as a great way to take your enemys' military fleets out of the way as soon as the war started, not as a «morally reprehensible» attack. And it sounds awfully hypocritical of the US to call the Pearl Harbour attack as «infamous» and typical of a cowardly nation only because this time the pepper was in its eyes.
And just how many newspapers have you read that you're making this assumption?