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Sep 25, 2000
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Hello,

I would like to have more detailed informations on this war: about its origins, the conduct of the war and the outcome.
Could you suggest me any interesting book on this conflict ?

by advance Thank you
Crusader
 
Originally posted by Vurbil:
I think this post is off topic. You can only ask questions about the game EU on this board. This is a History question, not an EU question, so it should be deleted.

The Board Police are looking through my folders
The Board Police are talking to my niece
Gamers watch out it's Board Police
:)

Really now. I just witnessed the Talonsoft TOAW message board disintegrate because posts were deleted, and Talonsoft policed the board with the zeal of the Gestapo.

Who are you Vurbil to decide, what can be posted and what can't? Instead of trying to scor brownie points with Paradoxx, how about kicking back and relax? This is the kind of stuff that makes message boards unpleasant.

And Crusader: Unfortunately I know absolutely nothing about the Spanish war of succession, but I'll be interested to know anything you'll find out.

Oh, and Paradoxx: You might want to consider a forum for historical questions.

Regards,

The E.

------------------
Uhm... nice province. I
think I'll take it.

[This message has been edited by Emperor of Europe (edited 06-10-2000).]
 
chill guys :p

anything regarding history 1492-1792 is on topic (most stuff on history outside that time is also on topic here..)

please read my forum post again :)

/Johan
 
Originally posted by Crusader:
Hello,

I would like to have more detailed informations on this war: about its origins, the conduct of the war and the outcome.
Could you suggest me any interesting book on this conflict ?

by advance Thank you
Crusader

Dear Crusader,
There is quite some information on this war... in Spanish or Catalan! Nevertheless, the book 'Imperial Spain 1469-1716' by J.H. Elliott (printed by Penguin Books and still easy to find) contains information about the background and devotes its last pages to the consequences of the war.

I will try and see if I can find any more books in English. If am not successful, I will prepare a resume and include it in this topic as soon as possible.

By the way, I might be wrong, but I do not believe this is OT. After all, we not only discuss the game but also the history of the period. Am I wrong, Johan?

Kind regards,

Martin C-Y
 
Sir

As I understand things, the origins of the War of Spainish Succession can be traced to the intrigues of one man, Louis XIV.

Louis XIV was married to Maria-Teresia of Austria. They had one son and three grandsons. It had been the goal of the House of Bourbon since Henry IV first ascended the throne to replace the Hapsburgs as the preeminent House of Europe. The chance came when Carlos II, the King of Spain, and little brother of Maria-Teresia died. The late King named one of Louis XIV's grandchildren the Duke of Anjou as heir.

The war itself, is Louis XIV's attempt to see his grandson king of Spain. Opposition was comprised of a host of nations unwilling to allow France already the strongest State in Christendom, to become truly Imperial. Coalition commanders such as Marlbourough standing against the sheer amount of troops and monies Louis XIV had to command meant the war dragged on year after year.

The end of the war, as signed in the Treaty of Utrecht, did indeed see a Bourbon on the Spainish Throne: Felipe V. However, in order for this to take place he had to renounce all claim to the French Throne.

The war was the capstone of the Sun Kings' reign, leaving France exhausted and bankrupt, Spain stripped of territory and headed of twilight, Germany divided as ever, and England in control of Gibraltar.
 
Originally posted by Johan:
chill guys :p

anything regarding history 1492-1792 is on topic (most stuff on history outside that time is also on topic here..)

please read my forum post again :)

/Johan

Does it have to be history? I thought evrything regaring that period was ok. But nowdays evrything about that period may be considered history?
 
Thank you Pontiac and Martin

As for the Spanish position, Was there no claim from any Spanish ? What was the logic of the claim of Louis XIV as only men could inherit the crown in Spain and France ?

Crusader
 
Originally posted by Crusader:
Thank you Pontiac and Martin

As for the Spanish position, Was there no claim from any Spanish ? What was the logic of the claim of Louis XIV as only men could inherit the crown in Spain and France ?

Crusader

Did they have that rule in Spain also? I thougt that was only in France.
 
Can any of you guys give me a progression of the war? i.e. major battles, descriptions of the battles (if poss), any of that sort of stuff?

Pweaseee? :)


Sapura
 
Hey Sapura,

Your request is huge, but I'll give it a try. The war saw France, Spain, and Bavaria allied against most of the rest of Europe (the Pragmatic Sanction). Bavaria started on the other side but France wooed them away diplomatically early on. The French king Louis XIV had been very aggressive in earlier years and made a lot of enemies. When the lid blew off over the Spanish throne (both France and Austria had claimants - France's was a grandson of Louis) France's neighbors feared that France had grown too powerful and needed a setback. Much of the fighting took place in Flanders but there were some colorful sideshows going on in Italy and Spain. For example, the Austrian claimant invaded Spain with a large English contingent and did well at first. The good times ended with the disaster at the battle of Almanza. There were also a number of epic sieges, such as Lille in 1708.

1702 saw the French and Dutch going at it in Flanders with the French getting the upper hand. The Dutch leadership was indecisive and the French took a lot of territory. Marlborough arrived at the height of the crisis and sent the French reeling. A lack of cooperation on the part of the Dutch saved France from a serious tromping. Most of this was done via manuever with few battles (none of them major) being fought.

1704 saw the main effort shift to Germany as the Pragmatic Sanction sought to take out Bavaria. This resulted in the battles of Donauworth and Blenheim in July and August. The Franco-Bavarians lost both battles and Bavaria pretty much bailed out after that. The French maintained a front here, in which Villars displayed his great ability, but the effort was secondary as Flanders got most of the attention from here out.

1705-1709 saw lots of tramping around in Flanders with the battles of Ramillies in 1707, Oudenarde in 1708, and Malplaquet in 1709. The French lost all of them. Things were looking very grim in France but Louis wouldn't abandon his grandson. Villars was given command at Malplaquet and the Pragmatic army was gutted in it's victory. The French might have won the battle, except Villars took a musket ball in the knee during a critical counterattack and the French withdrew over his vehement objections. Shaken by the carnage and French resolve, peace began to look more attractive to the Pragmatic Sanction.

Marlborough was recalled in disgrace at that point on embezzlement charges and peace soon followed. Nothing had been solved by either side and the basic quarrel was left intact.

Does that help? If you'd like more detail than this let me know.

Regards,
Dan
 
France's was a grandson of Louis) France's neighbors feared that France had grown too powerful and needed a setback


This is almost a mirror image of what happend to Poland in the mid 17th century. Most of its neighbours took advantage of it between 1648-1660 and gave it an utter shake up. Mirrors it almost perfectly.

1705-1709 saw lots of tramping around in Flanders with the battles of Ramillies in 1707, Oudenarde in 1708, and Malplaquet in 1709. The French lost all of them.


Again, mirrors the early years of the Polish deluge when the Poles lost battle after battle. What was the reason for the French being defeated so consistently during this war?

France and Poland share much of the same history, and the same stumbling blocks. Revolution broke out in Poland and France almost at the same time in the 18th century, though at least in France it was successful. Both the Poles and the French were the first to make sweeping changes to their constitutions as well..


Sapura
 
Here's a try at a brief history of the war:

1702: May 15: War declared. France, Spain, and Savoy against England, the Netherlands, Austria, and Baden. Portugal had signed an alliance with France and Spain, but wasn't actively participating. Bavaria was inclining towards the French.
In Italy, Prince Eugene of Savoy led the outnumbered Austrian forces against the French and Spanish under Vendome. Marlborough led an Anglo-Dutch force and although obstructed by the Dutch deputies was able to expel the French from the Maas and lower Rhine.
Admiral Rooke led an Anglo-Dutch force in an attempt to seize Cadiz, which ended in fiasco. However, on the way home, Rooke attacked Vigo destroying the Plate fleet and 15 French ships of the line.
In September, Bavaria joined France with the understanding that it would get greatly increased territories and the Imperial throne after victory had been acheived.

1703:Marlborough invaded the Electorate of Cologne and catpured Bonn. He then returned to the Netherlands, where his plans were ruined by the antagonism of the Dutch generals.
A French army advanced through Baden and, after linking with the Elector of Bavaria's army, moved into the Tyrol. Vienna was menaced by Hungarian insurgents and by the end of the year, Austria was in a desperate position. Eugene was recalled from Italy by Emperor Leopold.
In May, Portugal defected from France and signed an alliance with England. In October, Savoy, increasingly distrustful of the French, allied with Austria.

1704: To prevent Austria from being defeated, Marlborough took his army into Germany against the protests of the Dutch. After moving into Bavaria, Marlborough encountered and routed a French force at Donauworth, losing 1,400 killed and 3,800 wounded to 10,000 total for the French. In August, Marlborough connected with Eugene and then attacked the main Franco-Bavarian army at Blenheim. Although outnumbered 52,000 to 60,000, the allies won a major victory, suffering 12,000 casualties while the French and Bavarians lost about 2/3rds of their army from casualties, prisoners, and desertions. This battle saved Austria and put France on the defensive for the rest of the war.
Also in this year, a force under Admiral Rooke captured Gibraltar from Spain and gained control of the Mediterranean.

1706: Marlborough won a victory over the French at Ramillies, forcing them to withdraw from the Netherlands. The French were also driven out of Italy.

1707: An Anglo-Portuguese force invaded Spain, but suffered defeat. Louis XIV's grandson, Philip V, retained control over most of the country.

1708: Marlborough won another victory at Oudenarde, causing Louis XIV to seek peace. However, the allies demanded that he help remove his grandson from power, causing negotiations to break down.

1709: Marlborough won his fourth great victory at Malplaquet, causing negotiations to resume, but break down for the same reason as before.
1711: Emperor Joseph died and his younger brother, who was to have inherited the Spanish throne, became Emperor Charles VI. Britain then worried about the Hapsburgs becoming predominant, leading the breakup of the Grand Alliance.

Peace negotiations began in 1712, leading to the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713 that established peace between France, on the one hand, and Britain, the Netherlands, Portugal, Savoy, and Prussia on the other. Austria attempted to continue alone, but ultimately made peace with France in 1714 and Spain in 1715.
 
Sapura asked, 'What was the reason for the French being defeated so consistently during this war?'

The French did rather well except when facing Marlborough, who brought a new style to the battle field. He attacked quickly and vigorously, something the French were historically used to doing to others. Marlborough would invariably attack one flank then the other. The French would respond to these strong attacks and commit their reserves. Only then would Marlborough launch the real attack at the French center, caving it in. It worked every time. Only when Villars took command did things begin to change. Villars figured out Marlborough's game and had a few surprises for him at Malplaquet, stopping the first flank attack (delivered by the Dutch) cold with horrendous losses. Villars trusted the French Guards to deal with the other attack while he took personal command of the reserves and prepared to teach Marlborough a thing or two about counterattacks. I think it would have worked, too. Unfortunately and unbelievably, the French Guards fired one volley and ran away. Villars somehow restored the situation with fresh troops and returned to delivering the counterattack. It was going great when Villars took that ball in the knee. He was only hit on the third enemy volley - his staff sacrificed themselves by throwing themselves in the way for the first two. Villars was carried to safety over his strong objections and the attack faltered. The French army slowly retreated and the enemy was in no shape to follow.

Those were the days,
Dan
 
Originally posted by Crusader:
Hello,

I would like to have more detailed informations on this war: about its origins, the conduct of the war and the outcome.
Could you suggest me any interesting book on this conflict ?

by advance Thank you
Crusader
One book on the warfare of the 17th century is 'Gustavus Adolphus' by Theodore Ayrault Dodge, a 19th century US colonel, who also excellent books on Alexander, Hannibal and Caesar (reading that right now). The full title of the Gustavus book is 'A History of the Art of War from its Revival After the Middle Ages to the End of the Spanish Succession War, with a Detailed Account of the Campaigns of the Great Swede, and of the Most Famous Campaigns of Turenne, Conde, Eugene and Marlborough'. 863 pages, I got it at Amazon.