• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
The game will be done when it will be done......
But I'd like to know how much the mechanics showed in the first DDs are changed now....


And I'd like to see weekly DDs :p

The goals system we scrapped and replaced with the national focus one as an example.
 
  • 7
  • 2
Reactions:
When we have a new expected releasedate, we'll announce it. When the game gets an approved alpha, we can start plan for that, but there is no way a game can go from alpha to relaese in less than six months, as i've said repeatedly.

@Johan, @podcat

I'd rather that the game be late than not be good. I love most of what I have seen in the DDs, so keep the game moving forward and ship it when it is done. :)
 
They're afraid of posting because people might ask questions?

Because they don't want to show something that may be changed later, soon after they reach alpha they will start to post information more frequently because no thing will have a major change at that point.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
They're afraid of posting because people might ask questions?
So if his answer was: Yes That would have made you happy? Or would you ask what were the changes? and if he had given you 2 more examples would that have been enough or would you have asked "anything else change?'
Where/when do they stop answering?
 
  • 1
Reactions:
So if his answer was: Yes That would have made you happy? Or would you ask what were the changes? and if he had given you 2 more examples would that have been enough or would you have asked "anything else change?'
Where/when do they stop answering?

Uh... couldn't they just give a list of what had changed since?

I mean, yeah, I totally agree that a back and forth of a year stretched over 200 posts attempting to haggle information would be really annoying for everyone involved. I don't see why that's what you jump to first, though.
 
Uh... couldn't they just give a list of what had changed since?

I mean, yeah, I totally agree that a back and forth of a year stretched over 200 posts attempting to haggle information would be really annoying for everyone involved. I don't see why that's what you jump to first, though.

Most of the changes would be on system that haven't been revealed yet, thus totaly useless for us.
 
Uh... couldn't they just give a list of what had changed since?
Well, Johan gave us an example of something that changed and how it changed from one thing to another. Well even if we are just talking about changes regarding things we knew about they might be able to say like 'Air Zones have changed'. How does that help us without knowing how they changed so they would also need to tell us how they changed (another DD) and they may be changed again.

They clearly announced the game too soon a built up excitement for the game. Now if they keep posting changes over & over the game wont look like it is going well. People wont be excited about a troubled game!
 
at least he didn't say

"we are now going to release this game as a freemium app on your iphone or android device ,conquer provinces in single-player and multi-player in order to win fuhrer manna, which is used to unlock new armies and technology."
 
  • 3
Reactions:
Well that is sad to hear. Who actually thought in the last two months that this could be released in Q2. It would be nice to have some kind of expected release date, but I suspect Paradox doesn't want to get burned again.

Take your time and do it correctly. Thanks for all the hard work.
 
There is no way we were promised a Q2 release, and Paradox have not gone back on any promises, and there has not been "further delays".

Johan was clear that Alpha submission was taking place in late March. A few people thought, and have repeated it in this thread, that this meant Alpha was finished and Beta was underway. This absolutely wasn't the case - probably the process was the Project Lead (Dan) was submitting his report, or however they do it, to the company executives showing how the features work, how they fit together etc. It's a business proposal - will you agree to invest NNN euros for the project to carry out Alpha and then Beta testing.

At first in a project you start with an idea, or concept. If that is accepted, then you usually move to proof of concept, not straight to implementation. That is where they had reached just before Easter. All the features designed and put together into a working prototype.

Something they could show some YouTube gamers, give them some hands on and talk about. They played around a year, and it was setup for Germany to be able to invade Poland in 1936 to see some combat.

But as important as that was for ongoing PR, someone with alot more knowledge of HOI3 and the expectations of the community, and knowledge of history, would have been assessing it. Did they have an air war model which actually worked, or did the Battle of Britain result in one side losing all of its planes in a couple of days? Did trade make sense without money? Did the (new?) combat model produce realistic outcomes? Was an Intel system with spies like HOI3 required? Did the logistics system make things for GER very difficult in North Africa, easy in Poland or the Low Countries? Was the decision to have individual ships instead of Destroyer Divisions workable, or a micro hell for the naval powers? Were the diplomatic processes able to stop most countries going to war most of the time before 1939, but not delay war until 1944? Did the exceptions for Spain and Japan feel not too forced? And alot more.

Did the concept of the game, work as a game? In other words, fun, replayability, accessibility for new players, challenge for hardcore, modability to engage the community long-term etc.

Remember not only did Dan set out to improve the use of AI control of armies/corps using battle plans, but quite the opposite with other major processes - removing the option of AI control of production for instance, and therefore trade. Did the trade model feel interesting/fun/challenging/realistic or just an absolute chore if you have to continuously browse through a list of countries selling a particular rare material, and offer to buy it, in order to keep your production up? Is there total frustration that many times country X is selling resource Y, but when it comes to the crunch always rejects offers from the player of country Z.

Here I'm not talking about balancing, but how often you have to go into the trade interface, how many buttons you have to press to make a trade, how is the information presented of what trades are available and what trades you already made?

And let's remind ourselves of an important game interface used IIRC in HOI2, as well as HOI3, which we have seen nothing of in screenshots of HOI4 - the little game log interface showing what has happened recently in case you missed a pop-up or have certain types disabled. What, if anything, has replaced this? And, if nothing, how does all of the information on what is going on get presented to the user? Seemingly the concept was that everything would be presented visually on the map, limiting written information. Could they prove that this works effectively when you are playing a country with interests across large sections of the globe, where you can't possibly be watching these all at the same time.

We knew there were changes to the battle plan interface and the National Goals replaced with the National Focus Trees. And we can see hints of other things from differences in screenshots. Such as one showing British Raj in India, and there is mention in this article by Dan, "Poland contains three different air zones at the moment." I'm sure there was only two in the original screenshots and discussions, so if the strategic air regions proved too big, then they have had alot of reworking of the map. And we know they only recently decided that they needed to include trucks as an equipment type to be able to better model the cost of creating/sustaining motorised units.

But we don't know what might have been changed in processes we had had no information about, such as trade, logistics, land combat, amphibious landings, para drops, etc. It was notable that Dan had to use the trade interface to get production working in a live stream, but he went out of his way not to show it. And, as far as I know, the devs have never spoken about it in the forum, or to the media. Other than to say, and get alot of flak about, not having money.

The lack of any big announcement over the last couple of weeks, since Dan came back from holidays, that the Alpha submission was accepted and therefore they could predict a potential release of Q3, and would begin the weekly DD's seemed to imply to me that things might not have gone well with the submission, but I tried to be optimistic. Johan's confirmation that Alpha has not yet been accepted, a month after being submitted, suggests something more than sitting in someone's in-tray waiting for a decision. But that at least one feature, process, model or interface has been rejected and sent back for further work on the design. Iteration, iteration, iteration.

But ultimately if the concept Dan and Johan had for the game doesn't fit together into something which is economically viable, then the game might be pulled completely by the people who pay the bills. The quality of recent Paradox releases is one thing, but the enormous sales that they have generated is another. Paradox don't want an HOI3 type broken release, but also nor must they want something which is bug-free but is actually a yawnfest, that the YouTubers recommend to give it a miss because it is too boring/tedious micro. It has to sell in large enough quantities to warrant the investment, or they are better off devoting the time of the developers to another project.

I hope not, and that they can resolve the issues, and design a great game. But until they say (not some little known website) 100% definitely they plan to release Q... then and only then, do we have grounds for complaint if they change that without informing us the reasons.

ATM all that Johan is saying is stop talking bull about a Q2 release. It was never going to happen even if the Alpha submission was accepted.
 
  • 3
  • 1
Reactions:
Until approved aplha, everything is on the table and subject to change. Typically after an approved alpha the changes are smaller by comparision, with regard to in game systems.

While the above general rule of thumb, there are always deviations when required.

Therefore, most companies do not make promises they cannot guarantee cannot be kept.

Once game modules are coded and in place and working as designed, and ensure it can actually be coded and properly integrated into the game as a whole; it can then generally release info to the public.

However, some game modules after desig ed and before coding (just mockup) can have info released. However, there is always the risk that some may not make it into the final or be modified heavily due to integration factors and fun factors and or immersion factor in what you are trying to develop.

Just my 1 cent
 
There is no way we were promised a Q2 release, and Paradox have not gone back on any promises, and there has not been "further delays".

Johan was clear that Alpha submission was taking place in late March. A few people thought, and have repeated it in this thread, that this meant Alpha was finished and Beta was underway. This absolutely wasn't the case - probably the process was the Project Lead (Dan) was submitting his report, or however they do it, to the company executives showing how the features work, how they fit together etc. It's a business proposal - will you agree to invest NNN euros for the project to carry out Alpha and then Beta testing.

At first in a project you start with an idea, or concept. If that is accepted, then you usually move to proof of concept, not straight to implementation. That is where they had reached just before Easter. All the features designed and put together into a working prototype.

Something they could show some YouTube gamers, give them some hands on and talk about. They played around a year, and it was setup for Germany to be able to invade Poland in 1936 to see some combat.

But as important as that was for ongoing PR, someone with alot more knowledge of HOI3 and the expectations of the community, and knowledge of history, would have been assessing it. Did they have an air war model which actually worked, or did the Battle of Britain result in one side losing all of its planes in a couple of days? Did trade make sense without money? Did the (new?) combat model produce realistic outcomes? Was an Intel system with spies like HOI3 required? Did the logistics system make things for GER very difficult in North Africa, easy in Poland or the Low Countries? Was the decision to have individual ships instead of Destroyer Divisions workable, or a micro hell for the naval powers? Were the diplomatic processes able to stop most countries going to war most of the time before 1939, but not delay war until 1944? Did the exceptions for Spain and Japan feel not too forced? And alot more.

Did the concept of the game, work as a game? In other words, fun, replayability, accessibility for new players, challenge for hardcore, modability to engage the community long-term etc.

Remember not only did Dan set out to improve the use of AI control of armies/corps using battle plans, but quite the opposite with other major processes - removing the option of AI control of production for instance, and therefore trade. Did the trade model feel interesting/fun/challenging/realistic or just an absolute chore if you have to continuously browse through a list of countries selling a particular rare material, and offer to buy it, in order to keep your production up? Is there total frustration that many times country X is selling resource Y, but when it comes to the crunch always rejects offers from the player of country Z.

Here I'm not talking about balancing, but how often you have to go into the trade interface, how many buttons you have to press to make a trade, how is the information presented of what trades are available and what trades you already made?

And let's remind ourselves of an important game interface used IIRC in HOI2, as well as HOI3, which we have seen nothing of in screenshots of HOI4 - the little game log interface showing what has happened recently in case you missed a pop-up or have certain types disabled. What, if anything, has replaced this? And, if nothing, how does all of the information on what is going on get presented to the user? Seemingly the concept was that everything would be presented visually on the map, limiting written information. Could they prove that this works effectively when you are playing a country with interests across large sections of the globe, where you can't possibly be watching these all at the same time.

We knew there were changes to the battle plan interface and the National Goals replaced with the National Focus Trees. And we can see hints of other things from differences in screenshots. Such as one showing British Raj in India, and there is mention in this article by Dan, "Poland contains three different air zones at the moment." I'm sure there was only two in the original screenshots and discussions, so if the strategic air regions proved too big, then they have had alot of reworking of the map. And we know they only recently decided that they needed to include trucks as an equipment type to be able to better model the cost of creating/sustaining motorised units.

But we don't know what might have been changed in processes we had had no information about, such as trade, logistics, land combat, amphibious landings, para drops, etc. It was notable that Dan had to use the trade interface to get production working in a live stream, but he went out of his way not to show it. And, as far as I know, the devs have never spoken about it in the forum, or to the media. Other than to say, and get alot of flak about, not having money.

The lack of any big announcement over the last couple of weeks, since Dan came back from holidays, that the Alpha submission was accepted and therefore they could predict a potential release of Q3, and would begin the weekly DD's seemed to imply to me that things might not have gone well with the submission, but I tried to be optimistic. Johan's confirmation that Alpha has not yet been accepted, a month after being submitted, suggests something more than sitting in someone's in-tray waiting for a decision. But that at least one feature, process, model or interface has been rejected and sent back for further work on the design. Iteration, iteration, iteration.

But ultimately if the concept Dan and Johan had for the game doesn't fit together into something which is economically viable, then the game might be pulled completely by the people who pay the bills. The quality of recent Paradox releases is one thing, but the enormous sales that they have generated is another. Paradox don't want an HOI3 type broken release, but also nor must they want something which is bug-free but is actually a yawnfest, that the YouTubers recommend to give it a miss because it is too boring/tedious micro. It has to sell in large enough quantities to warrant the investment, or they are better off devoting the time of the developers to another project.

I hope not, and that they can resolve the issues, and design a great game. But until they say (not some little known website) 100% definitely they plan to release Q... then and only then, do we have grounds for complaint if they change that without informing us the reasons.

ATM all that Johan is saying is stop talking bull about a Q2 release. It was never going to happen even if the Alpha submission was accepted.
I would like to note that, this Q2 release date was not just some date people randomly dreamt about. They told the writer of that article Q2, and numerous other places stated as Q2.

It is a delay.

They obviously are not on schedule for whatever reason or series of reasons.

I am only curious about do they have a functional alpha and are working towards beta. Or if they are back to the drawing board.
 
  • 3
Reactions:
I would like to note that, this Q2 release date was not just some date people randomly dreamt about. They told the writer of that article Q2, and numerous other places stated as Q2.

It is a delay.

They obviously are not on schedule for whatever reason or series of reasons.

I am only curious about do they have a functional alpha and are working towards beta. Or if they are back to the drawing board.
and its right in the top of hearts of iron Developer Diary "Hearts of Iron IV is planned for a late Q2 2015 release." so pretty legit a delay.
 
There is no way we were promised a Q2 release, and Paradox have not gone back on any promises, and there has not been "further delays".

Ahem i dont know about you but:
Release Schedule
On to other important matters. As some of you on the forum have already guessed, we have decided to move the original Q1 2015 release target to late Q2 2015. Hearts of Iron IV is a very ambitious undertaking and we might have been a tad optimistic with the original date that was communicated.
[...]
With the new schedule, I'm happy and confident with where we are now with the game and with it being one of our core titles there is not really any risk of any other delays. After the last spurt of work we did before Christmas for example we have really seen all the pieces fall into place.

sounds like a pretty confident conviction to a timeframe to me. Its also in the Announcement Thread of the HOI4, so if that is not official i guess they are not working on HOI4 either?.

Also while in dont want to belittle the effort you put into that post, this is the most elaborate contribution to a strawman debate. To everyone saying: "Dont get upset about the delay!" I ask: "Who are you talking to?" I havent seen any posts which get really upset about the delay. Are people dissapointed? Yes. Are they up in arms? By no means. Nobody faults them for pushing back the release of a game that hasn't been evolving as they wanted it to. People want a good game on release and from what i have read here, everyone is willing to wait for that. I think everyone trusts PDX in their judgement regarding the development of their game.

The question i am pondering and i think many others is: "Why havent they been more straightforward in their communication?" I feel highly irritated that people get scorned upon how they could ever have expected a Q2 release in light of these posts.


Nobody questions that:

When we have a new expected releasedate, we'll announce it. When the game gets an approved alpha, we can start plan for that, but there is no way a game can go from alpha to relaese in less than six months, as i've said repeatedly.

But wouldnt it have been nice if podcat had been reminded of that when he wrote the quote above in January, when they didnt even had an approved alpha?
Or maybe this rather optimistic sounding guy 8 weeks ago, who was hoping for alpha approval:

The game is coming along nicely, and alpha submission is today.. So fingers crossed, in a few weeks time we’ll be on the stretch run, with dev diaries every week during the final months until release.

Turns out Game Development can be a bumpy road, big surprise. But i dont want to be talked into feeling guilty for ever expecting a Q2 Release.

Your sincerly

Edit: Typos, Punctuation
 
Last edited:
  • 9
Reactions: