-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
I mean, I would recommend against using Crash Course as a source, as John Green is not a historian, but whatever. It does make sense, however, that the Japanese are remembered positively in Taiwan, an area conquered before Japan's militarists took charge. However, as the military assumes further control we can see a trend of dehumanization of people conquered, from the use of comfort women, to the activities of Unit 731, etc. For this reason I think it likely that, had the Japanese won total control of the Pacific they would have used significantly more unsavory methods to integrate what they conquered.
Well you mentioned "British neocons and colonial apologists", and considering that insofar as I know Icon isn't British it would have had to be me.
Constant was the wrong word, I do apologise for that.
The 53 million number does include BEIC period so, using that number (or the 60 million number on that wiki). We still get Japan being 17.05-ish times worse than Britain. I'll agree that Japan would transition to less deaths but it also is a fact that we have no idea how Japanese policy might have been shaped by 2.5 centuries of rule.
Anyway, I'm just trying to say that I think Japan was worse than Britain. I should state on the record that I do think Britain had some positive impacts on India that probably wouldn't have occurred under a local state, but they definitely pale in comparison to the atrocities.
I think you miss the point, it's not question of numbers, toll of death or value of stolen goods, it's mentality, it's question of why there is war, both Japan and UK fought over Pacific and both justified it similarly: i can do more beacause i am better, and I am better because i was born into best civilization in the world, there is no better or worse in that, both of them waged war for their greed and justified it through social darwinism.
And about "positive impacts", of course that their builded things like railroads and modern ports, it's fair easier to take stolen goods when you have modern infrastructure, thief can stole more with a truck than with bare hands.
And about "positive impacts", of course that their builded things like railroads and modern ports, it's fair easier to take stolen goods when you have modern infrastructure, thief can stole more with a truck than with bare hands.
Firstly, you and I are clearly viewing this under lenses. I do view empires in terms of deaths per year, and thus Japan comes off poorly. To me it is the death tolls. This is my point.
I really should stop commenting, I do enjoy this but I feel like I keep launching the discussion down tangents.
Honestly it's really starting to grow on me.I'll change it back once I stop grinning like a stupid kid at it
You make a good point about the Japanese government shift. And the Japanese political power struggle between its three major blocs is very hard to predict... in the end, we're just speculating here. Only thing we do know is British Empire's longer duration DID leave bigger numbers overall (which we already agreed on before @AvatarOfKhaine interjected).
I use Crash Course as a source a LOT because it's a fairly reliable, very concise, and readily accessible. It's one of the most widely used online education sources used in middle/high school classrooms and colleges in the English speaking world. John Green is merely a presenter. There's a whole team behind him who are more qualified.
Where does it show he's not British and you are?
(Union Jack is way too common of a symbol)
At any rate, if you believe I'm out to antagonize you, nobody is pulling your leg to stay.
Last edited:
He's made some extreme historical simplifications, the most egregious of which is probably "There was no difference between Bourbon France and Napoleonic France" essentially because both were monarchies, and ignoring the meritocratic military, code of laws, legal reforms, among others, that Napoleon implemented. The historiography of the French Revolution, however, is DEFINITELY off topic.
Wooop , I just nominated you Zanaikin to the weekly AAR showcase. For all the time and work you put in your story you deserve it !
Special 2: Chiang Kai-shek's Generals
Something fun to take off the edge from all the recent scuffles.
Despite appearances, my foremost interest is actually in culture and psychology (I'm bit of a Xenophile). So unlike many people who read history and focus on events, I read history and focus on characters and behavior. During my research both prior and during the AAR, I've found a number of very interesting tidbits about Chiang's various commanders and helps to reflect Chinese attitudes overall during this period of time. Since the CBI Theater is ignored by most WW2 historians and its personalities aren't very well known, I thought I'd share some. It also serves as a good example of just how diverse the Kuomintang really was and... its many quirks.
The writing is simpler than my usual, as much of it is a text dump from notes:
He Yingqin
Ethicnity: Han Chinese
Current AAR Role: Chief of Staff
Nickname: "The Lucky General" (despite partaking in every major military campaign the KMT has fought in, he has never been wounded once)
Notes: Good organizer, but otherwise the classic example of a "tactically incompetent but political reliable" general who Chiang used many of (to his great detriment in the Early Civil War)... at least until the Xi'an Incident when He proposed a military solution (which likely would have gotten Chiang killed). Chiang never forgave him after that. I would compare him to Soviet Marshal Shaposhnikov (same position too).
Bai Chongxi
Ethicnity: Hui (Chinese Muslim), Persian descent
Current AAR Role: Head of Military Operations
Nickname: "Little Zhuge" (after the most famous strategist in Chinese history)
Notes: Brilliantly intelligent, but spiteful. His reputation on the mainland is in the gutter as he hated Communists with a murderous passion. A Xenophobe who hated westerners as well, yet a strong proponent of modernization/westernization (famously bulldozing temples to make room for schools during the Northern Expedition). Bai is credited as being the strategist behind most of the KMT's hard-fought victories during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Widely accepted as the leader of the KMT Muslims yet is famous for his secular beliefs. British intelligence noted that he was "a Muslim who ate pork and drank wine".
Li Zongren
Ethnicity: Zhuang (a Tai/Thai culture), most likely a Pagan/Animist (Zhuang Shigongism)
Current AAR Role: CO of 2nd (Coastal) War Zone
Notes: The 2nd most powerful man in the Kuomintang, due to his control of the Guangxi Clique. Ardent militarist who disliked intellectuals; poorly educated with little understanding of Sun Yat-sen's political philosophy. Yet oddly enough he was a good governor-general and worked well with civil authorities (filled with intellectuals due to the Confucian's "Scholar-Bureacrat" social class). Was so close with Bai Chongxi (another intellectual) they might as well be brothers. Fought endlessly with Chiang in our history leading to general disunity in the KMT (which is why I needed the two to make up for this premise).
Yan Xishan
Ethnicity: Han Chinese
Current AAR Role: ???
Notes: Japanese-educated warlord who modernized his province, Shanxi, from one of the poorest in China to one of the 'model provinces' via social reforms... just in time for the CPC to take it over. He changed sides many times in ROC's various power struggles. Extremely good at bribing people -- money, prestige, position, women, everyone has a desire. Welcomed in foreign missionaries to set up churches, then had them end every service praising Confucius (laugh). Once named "China's Next President" by TIME Magazine. I'd call him the 'perfect politician', as the man was so persuasive he routinely made former enemies side with him.
Unsurprisingly, he came from a long lineage of merchants -- classified as the lowest of the four social classes by traditional Chinese Confucianism due to their inherent "greed, self-interest, and moral corruption".
Chen Jitang
Ethnicity: Hakka
Current AAR Role: Former Chief of Army, commander (of a stack of divisions)
Nickname: "Celestial King of the South" (for his work in Guangdong)
Notes: Governor-general of Guangdong, creditted with the province's rapid development in the 1920s/30s. Established a modern school system with public standardized schools and prestigious colleges. An accomplished modernizer but deeply suspicious of Chiang. Orchestrator of the 'Liangguang Incident' (1936) when he tried to overthrow Chiang but was outmaneuvered and undermined by his own troops, who saw it as undermining Chinese unity in the face of the Japanese aggression. Strongly aligned with Li Zongren.
Zhang Xueliang
Ethnicity: Han Bannerman descent (Han Chinese integrated into late Manchu Banner social class)
Current AAR Role: CO of 1st (Northeast) War Zone
Nickname: "The Young Marshal" (son of Fengtiang warlord Zhang Zuolin)
Notes: Famous womanizer; most notably his affair with Edda Ciano, Mussolini's daughter. Saved Chiang's life several times during the Central Plains War. Leader of the Xi'an Incident who surrendered himself to Chiang afterwards as repentence. Chiang kept him under house arrest for most of his life, yet treated him like family and routinely dined/went to Church together (so... no trust, but always grateful?). In stark contrast, Zhang Xueliang's partner at Xi'an -- Yang Hucheng -- lost his entire family to Chiang's revenge. Widely recognized as a martyr by the PRC.
Ma Bufang
Ethnicity: Hui (Chinese Muslim), dynastic military family (Qing)
Current AAR Role: CO of 3rd (Northwest) War Zone
Notes: Excellent administrator/industrialist. Contributed leaps and bounds to the modernization of NW China. US observers noticed that his government was unusually efficient compared to the rest of China. Extremely tolerant towards other religions (he personally partook in local pagan ceremonies). Often described as a "socialist" yet deeply trusted by Chiang (named Supreme Commander of the Northwest in the late Civil War). Said to support Pan-Arabism. His role in the AAR will grow with time.
Ma Hongkui
Ethnicity: Hui (Chinese Muslim)
Current AAR Role: Inspector General of Cavalry
Notes: Brutal, dictatorial, with the moral propensity of Genghis Khan. His motto in battle was "kill them all" (he literally had to be ordered to offer quarter). He ruled through martial law and full militarization. Ningxia essentially became a 20th century version of Sparta during his reign, with its good and bads -- his troops were fanatically well-disciplined. His father Ma Fuxiang was Chiang Kai-shek's sworn brother, which sorta made him family.
Xue Yue
Ethnicity: Han Chinese
Current AAR Role: CO of 1st Route Army
Nickname: "War God", "Tiger of Changsha" (for defeating IJA's strategic offensive three times at Changsha)
Notes: Hailed by Chiang Kai-shek as "a true example of a Chinese officer" yet they never really got along. Xue never held his opinions back which led to repeated clashes; he even offered to arrest Chiang if he did not declare war on Japan during the Xi'an Incident. Proud and arrogant. Sworn brothers with US General Chennault.
Zhang Fakui
Ethnicity: Hakka
Current AAR Role: CO of 3rd Route Army
Nickname: "Hero of the Iron Army" (for his many victories during the Northern Expedition)
Notes: KMT old guard; once served as Sun Yat-sen's personal bodyguard. His Chinese was so poor he and Chiang had trouble conversing. Chiang had to double check every time he passed orders to Zhang.
Ma Biao
Ethnicity: Dongxiang (mongolic)
Current AAR Role: oddly enough, he's not in DH's KMT leaders list
Notes: Fought in the Boxer Rebellion. Acted as a imperial guard for the Qing Court's withdraw. Hero of the 2nd Sino-Japanese War. Commander of the elite NRA 1st cavalry division (100% mongol) and later the 2nd Cavalry Army. He was a polyglot who led a force of combined Han, Hui, Turkic Salars, Mongolic Dongxiangs, and Tibetan Lamaists. His troops generally fought to the death when cornered, commiting suicide rather than being captured. Feared by the Japanese for his brutality in battle (he did many things that would make Vlad the Impaler proud) -- like many other Ma Clique generals, he swore an oath of vengeance against the Japanese for the brothers they lost during the Boxer Rebellion.
(Interesting fact: like the Mongols, the Chinese culture and its veneration of ancestors holds 'revenge' on a pedestal, with numerous adages like 'the killing of one's father is unforgivable even by the heavens'. Combined with its history obsession and long racial memory, this means the Chinese routinely hold grudges across the span of centuries... and then use this humiliation/revenge as a drive for self-strengthening [shaming students is standard practice in Chinese education]. One could say that the 'Century of Humiliation' is key for modern China's successful revival. Contrast this with the Indians, whose Samsara cycle makes them unusually forgiving.)
Du Yuming
Ethnicity: Han Chinese
Current AAR Role: CO of 200th Division (mot.)
Notes: One of Chiang's star pupils (Whampoa Academy 1st class) and among the KMT's best commanders. Founder of China's 1st 'mechanized' division. De-facto commander of the Chinese Expedition Force in the Burma Campaign. Best known for defeating Lin Biao, the CPC's best field commander at Siping, twice. Du was professional, uncorrupt, skilled, but... very compromised. Both his chief-of-staff and his wife were Communist agents ^^'
Li Mi
Ethnicity: Han Chinese
Current AAR Role: CO of some infantry division
Notes: Another Whampoa star pupil. Divisional commander of the Chinese Expedition Force into Burma (WW2). Retreated into Burma after the Chinese Civil War as the leader of the "Lost Army" and waged a guerilla war against both the Chinese Communists and Burmese government (aided by American airdropped supplies and CIA trainers). Basically, he destroyed any unity Burma had after independence and is a big part of why Burma is so messed up today.
Qiu Qingquan
Ethnicity: Han Chinese
Current AAR Role: CO of 9th Cavalry Division
Nickname: "Qiu the Mad" (for his suicidal fanaticism in battle)
Notes: Another Whampoa star pupil. Graduate of the Prussian Military Academy. Student of the famous Heinz Guderian. One of the founders of the ROC armored forces. One of many KMT generals who committed suicide (or fought to death) rather than surrender.
(Du Yuming, Li Mi, and Qiu Qingquan fought as a leadership trio in many, many battles)
Chen Cheng
Ethnicity: Han Chinese
Current AAR Notes: Chief of Army
Notes: Another Whampoa star pupil. 1st ROCN commander-in-chief despite... not having any naval experience <_<. Excellent organizer with a strong of ethics, which did not help him in the various power struggles within the KMT. Proved to be a better Governor-General (Taiwan) than a field commander, but remembered as a fascist for all times because he, dutifully obeying his orders, declared martial law in Taiwan (which lasted for 38 years).
Zhang Lingfu
Ethnicity: Han Chinese
Current AAR Role: CO of 11th Mountain Division
Nickname: "Lame Legged General"
Notes: Another Whampoa... and Chiang's favorite. Called the 'model soldier' for his bravery, relentlessness, and utter refusal to leave front lines (even when he leg was wounded and the doctors warned he might become a cripple if he didn't rest; his nickname speaks the story). However, he was absurdly proud, killed his own wife because he believed she was having an affair, and routely scolded his direct superiors as if he was the boss. As a result many fellow generals hated him.
Because of his WW2 reputation, the CPC tried to get him to surrender after destroying his 74th Corps during the Civil War. Instead, Zhang shot anyone who proposed surrender (including his own nephew), then fought to the death himself with a machinegun in hand. Due to how martyrdom worked in the Kuomintang, he was recorded as "committed suicide" instead.
Chiang Kai-shek was so grieved by the loss that he fired a whole slew of generals in the aftermath.
Dai Li
Ethnicity: Han Chinese
Current AAR Role: Minister of Intelligence
Nickname: "Himmler of China"
Notes: Another star pupil of Chiang's, Dai Li's infamous career began in school when he became Chiang's student informant to spy on the Communists. He later became the head of the Fascist "Blue Shirts Society" and the Bureau of Investigation and Statistics (BIS) "Juntong" -- a cabal of assassins, saboteurs, spies, guerillas, and commando/executioner squads who served as both army intelligence and black ops.
Ultra-conservative, xenophobic, and fanatically loyal, Dai Li often spoke of how the Juntong (himself included) should follow Chiang "like dogs and horses serving their masters without a mind of their own". A fan of historical romances, Dai Li required all senior Juntong officers to swear an oaths of brotherhood. Men and women in the Juntong were expected to be ascetic; they were forbidden to marry, smoke, drink, or gamble, with the expectation that their only love was to China (i.e. they're nationalism-worshiping monks). To reflect his ethos of fanatical dedication, Juntong agents were routinely sent out on suicide missions, and an estimated 45,000 Juntong agents lost their lives over the course of the Second Sino-Japanese War.
( I may add more later... )
( Next Chapter - Vanguards of the Revolution )
Last edited:
That could make for some interesting conflict within the Sino-Indian alliance (once they are liberated ofcource). Altough I am not sure what kind of character Bose has.
And considering the Indian Front, what was the relation of the KMT with the Tibetans? They not seen as one of the 5 races, and could be of use to the British in sabotaging the supply lines in Tibet
I just learned more about the KMT generals, thanks bro!
IMO I like the pop culture on alternatehistory timelines, (Cartoons, movies, books).
IMO I like the pop culture on alternatehistory timelines, (Cartoons, movies, books).
Renamed AAR: Blue Sky, White Sun, And A Wholly Red Fort: Asia's Liberation Wars [EoD/Customized]
India will be playing a very important role in this story from this point on.
Yes, I hope to write some character conflicts later. Will be fun ^^
What I know of KMT-Tibet:
- Tibetan semi-declared independence from China (1912) in the wake of the Xinhai Revolution, with British support. The ROC government never recognized this but... labelled Tibet an autonomous province and didn't/couldn't do anything about it. Thus, Tibet was de-facto independent and de-jure an 'autonomous province', leaving very blurry historical lines that continue to spark arguments today.
- The Lamas ruled through the Tibetan Caste System, which exercised medieval law (amputations were a commonly-used punishment) and practiced serfdom. This is widely seen as slavery, and Chinese modernizers were very hostile towards it. However, Buddhism overall received a warm welcome in the ROC as they wished to uphold the traditional Three Teachings (Buddhism, Daoism, Confucianism); unlike the PRC who initially suppressed religion as 'superstition'. Would Tibet still revolt if they had a chance? Likely, because those in power like staying in power, and the serf had no voice in Tibet.
- The Ma Clique (Ma Bufang in Qinghai especially) supported the Panchen Lama over the Dalai Lama -- yes, Buddhist monk power struggle.
- Sino-Tibetan War (1930): Cause disputed. The Ma Clique almost won and forced Tibet back into chinese administration, then the British intervened, pressuring Chiang to call off the Ma Clique and settle for a truce (and some land gains).
Tibet is so heavily garrisoned by China during this AAR I didn't even consider creating any kind of uprising event... which in hindsight would have been a nice way to open this topic. Given that Tibet lacked local armaments production, rebellion is rather absurd without direct outside support (i.e. CIA in 1959).
I already blamed one British sabotage event on "tibetan collaborationist" P=
India will be playing a very important role in this story from this point on.
Yes, I hope to write some character conflicts later. Will be fun ^^
What I know of KMT-Tibet:
- Tibetan semi-declared independence from China (1912) in the wake of the Xinhai Revolution, with British support. The ROC government never recognized this but... labelled Tibet an autonomous province and didn't/couldn't do anything about it. Thus, Tibet was de-facto independent and de-jure an 'autonomous province', leaving very blurry historical lines that continue to spark arguments today.
- The Lamas ruled through the Tibetan Caste System, which exercised medieval law (amputations were a commonly-used punishment) and practiced serfdom. This is widely seen as slavery, and Chinese modernizers were very hostile towards it. However, Buddhism overall received a warm welcome in the ROC as they wished to uphold the traditional Three Teachings (Buddhism, Daoism, Confucianism); unlike the PRC who initially suppressed religion as 'superstition'. Would Tibet still revolt if they had a chance? Likely, because those in power like staying in power, and the serf had no voice in Tibet.
- The Ma Clique (Ma Bufang in Qinghai especially) supported the Panchen Lama over the Dalai Lama -- yes, Buddhist monk power struggle.
- Sino-Tibetan War (1930): Cause disputed. The Ma Clique almost won and forced Tibet back into chinese administration, then the British intervened, pressuring Chiang to call off the Ma Clique and settle for a truce (and some land gains).
Tibet is so heavily garrisoned by China during this AAR I didn't even consider creating any kind of uprising event... which in hindsight would have been a nice way to open this topic. Given that Tibet lacked local armaments production, rebellion is rather absurd without direct outside support (i.e. CIA in 1959).
I already blamed one British sabotage event on "tibetan collaborationist" P=
Last edited:
It bloody well should, you are invadi.... sorry, Liberating it from colonial oppression.
How are you going to deal with the hindu-muslim conflict in India? The Muslim League is in power because of the Quit India movement, but because of number of Muslim generals there could still be support for the Muslim minority in India among the RoC upper echelons, which could cause tension with Bose, who was Hindu.
Say it with me now: Ethnic Cleansing. Thats usually how these things work out.
Without action, all words are mere propaganda.
Therefore, at the moment, it is definitely an Invasion.
Quit India Movement (1942) hasn't officially launched yet.
The Partition of India is a major topic I'm still preparing notes for.
Given that the Muslims minorities in China has a long history of coexisting with other religions (notice that Chiang, a Christian Methodist, become sworn brothers with a Muslim), why would they even care?
For your ignorance: https://www.quora.com/What-do-Pakistani-people-think-about-Netaji-Subhash-Chandra-Bose
Last edited:
Was Gandhi's strict Hinduism that influential in the Partition?
I love Great Man theory myself, but I do find it a bit hard to believe that one man would change this course. That is unless the tensions weren't anywhere near as strong yet(I admit to not knowing much here.)
On the same note, what did the "Autonomous" rajas think of Bose in this time?
I didn't say Bose was going to magically fix everything...
I was simply disturbed by the fervent claim of Ethnic Cleansing when he clearly didn't know the complex set of actors that contributed to the Partition of India -- Jinnai, Nehru, Mountebatten, Cyril Radcliffe's idiotic map drawing spree. I don't want to blame Mountebatten since he was the wrong man for the job in the first place and he was under a lot of political pressure from everyone involved, but he screwed the partition up royally.
The Princely States? No idea. Feel free to give pointers.
Also: I appreciate speaking on civil terms again. It's obvious that I hate the British Empire but I don't blame the fault of governments on the people; so it'd be nice if you don't simply presume I'm out to antagonize every Briton.
@Rifal:
Sorry, my fatigue last night made me trigger which is my wrong. And please avoid such blatant accusations in the future unless you can back it up well.