We got to change how mercenaries work

[Kent_Lang]

I've got around 200 hours on CK2. Even if I don't play CK2 too often, I love this game. I know how mercenaries work, and I know how their balance affects the game but honestly I think their mechanics are really, really dumb.

My grievances has always been the same for mercenaries. They're incredibly expensive, you have to put down a payment in advance for them to even show up and when they do show up - they're at 0 army strength. Not only that but holding a mercenary army costs an arm and a leg and it's impossible to utilize them unless you got a significant war chest for 1000 gold or more, or alternatively a very large income. When you get into the red, instead of being indepted to the mercenaries - you will get an event that disbands them from your army regardless if they managed to succeed at the mission you hired them to deal with in the first place.

I dislike this heavily for many reasons. Mercenaries in their current state are only useful for rich characters, yet historically mercenaries were widely utilized. The problem historically isn't the scarcity of gold, but the costs of the mercenaries as the scarcity of gold was a problem during the medieval period which is well represented in the game, but mercenaries are not well represented in the game.

I know mercenaries has been largely untouched for basically the entire time that CK2 has existed. At least they haven't changed since I started playing this game back in 2013, but still I don't think their mechanics works well within the game and needs a more significant overhaul.

What I dislike the most is the upfront payment which for some companies is comparable for their upkeep for a whole year! It's not fair to hire a company for the cost of their upkeep for a whole year and then be abandoned by them as soon as you go in the red.

My suggestion is to remove upkeep for mercenaries and instead only have a single upfront payment that allows you to utilize them for a couple of months after which they disband unless you can renew their contract. At least that way they have a chance to be able to fulfill the mission that'd you'd hire them for in the first place instead of just being hired, taking a month's salary and disappear with both your first investment as well as your monthly upkeep payment without accomplishing anything at all. Alternatively you can keep the upkeep but then you have to remove the upfront payment. As it is right now the mercenaries gets to have their cake and eat it too.

 

[WomboCombo]

They're incredibly expensive, you have to put down a payment in advance for them to even show up and when they do show up - they're at 0 army strength.

I feel like that's a balance decision, so you can't exploit with a teleporting 5k stack at full morale.

I do agree that Mercs need to be reworked a bit, so not only megarich dudes can use them. Maybe different tiers of mercs? But they kinda already do that... You can form your own and hire them at a discount, but it's not guaranteed.

 

[makaramus]

hire small mercs?

 

[Kent_Lang]

I feel like that's a balance decision, so you can't exploit with a teleporting 5k stack at full morale.

I do agree that Mercs need to be reworked a bit, so not only megarich dudes can use them. Maybe different tiers of mercs? But they kinda already do that... You can form your own and hire them at a discount, but it's not guaranteed.

It's annoying to discuss mercs here on Paradox forums because everybody shoots down ideas because they themselves don't know how to balance the mercenaries and are very aware on how they can be exploited. I agree, they can be exploited but again - that's something Paradox have to balance after. What I want is for mercs to fulfill their contracts. I don't think that's too much to ask for. If I could for instance hire a band of mercenaries for just one war and get them to see it to completion, I'd be happy. To have them abandon their contracts after getting the upkeep for a whole year upfront should be unacceptable and shows that they're poorly balanced to begin with.

Thing is that they don't come with full morale. They come with 0 morale. During a poorly planned war I had a rival stomp my mercenary band who spawned adjacent to the capital province so I had to get them to recover which is more precious money wasted on them not being ready to do what they're paid to do. I quickly ran out of money waiting for them to get to full morale at which point they left. So basically I just paid them their upkeep for a whole year + like one or two month's upkeep for them to build their morale to be useful and then they disappear, only accomplishing getting stomped and taking my money. It's absolutely ridiculous!

It would even be fine if mercs acted like war allies that simply could be called into wars freely for a fee and was under the control of the AI. That would also basically limit how they could be abused.

Frankly I'm not as concerned over the overall price but the fact that how they're financed makes them really bad at fulfilling their missions. That is what has to change.

Ironically there's mercs in both Stellaris and EU IV and in both of these games they work fine. It just seems that Paradox has neglected them in CK2.

 

[WomboCombo]

It's annoying to discuss mercs here on Paradox forums because everybody shoots down ideas because they themselves don't know how to balance the mercenaries and are very aware on how they can be exploited. I agree, they can be exploited but again - that's something Paradox have to balance after. What I want is for mercs to fulfill their contracts. I don't think that's too much to ask for. If I could for instance hire a band of mercenaries for just one war and get them to see it to completion, I'd be happy. To have them abandon their contracts after getting the upkeep for a whole year upfront should be unacceptable and shows that they're poorly balanced to begin with.

Thing is that they don't come with full morale. They come with 0 morale. During a poorly planned war I had a rival stomp my mercenary band who spawned adjacent to the capital province so I had to get them to recover which is more precious money wasted on them not being ready to do what they're paid to do. I quickly ran out of money waiting for them to get to full morale at which point they left. So basically I just paid them their upkeep for a whole year + like one or two month's upkeep for them to build their morale to be useful and then they disappear, only accomplishing getting stomped and taking my money. It's absolutely ridiculous!

It would even be fine if mercs acted like war allies that simply could be called into wars freely for a fee and was under the control of the AI. That would also basically limit how they could be abused.

Frankly I'm not as concerned over the overall price but the fact that how they're financed makes them really bad at fulfilling their missions. That is what has to change.

Ironically there's mercs in both Stellaris and EU IV and in both of these games they work fine. It just seems that Paradox has neglected them in CK2.

Maybe just that -- A contract interface, where you talk to a mercenary company leader in the diplomacy menu, work out the particulars:

• How many men
• Their equipment, so you can be like "I just need 2000 light infantry to hold this siege, I need 3000 Pikemen for this crusade, etc"
• For how long, maybe this could have different stipulations ( time based, # of battles/sieges they participate in, up until the end of the war)
• Where you need them (distance from captial would be exponentially more expensive to prevent dropship troops)

That combined would work out a contract price that you'd pay upon releasing them. Monthly upkeep is still paid.

They'd take some time, maybe 1-2 weeks for staging and deployment, and they'd be at full morale.
After the contract was complete, you'd get an invoice, and if you can't pay it, they'd do stuff like:

• Join your enemy for free in their next war.
• Seize a county in lieu of payment (maybe with the aid of people who don't care for you)
• Label you and by extension your children personae non gratae, so you cannot re-hire them for 2 generations.

That's my idea.

 

[Kent_Lang]

@WomboCombo
That's a great idea! I would 100% support something like that.

 

[WomboCombo]

@WomboCombo
That's a great idea! I would 100% support something like that.

Thanks, I just fleshed it out a bit more.

 

[IntoTheMaelstrom]

Mercenaries and how to use them, this knowledge is usually first noob's stepping stone to greatness. There is you and your neighbor. You can wait 50 years until you outbuild his levies OR hire mercs. Congrats, your power is doubled. You won.

What do you do with your money? They say best defense is offense. For PUNY 1500-3000 gold you can crush your 2x as strong neighbor, then sue him for damages and make him pay for the bullets.

Mercenaries too expensive? Reduce their numbers! Storm those castles, wiping up 3/4 of your merc stacks so he can't recover his levies.

If you hire mercs, offensively, with no blitzkrieg in mind, you're doing it wrong!

 

[Rockphed]

Maybe just that -- A contract interface, where you talk to a mercenary company leader in the diplomacy menu, work out the particulars:

• How many men
• Their equipment, so you can be like "I just need 2000 light infantry to hold this siege, I need 3000 Pikemen for this crusade, etc"
• For how long, maybe this could have different stipulations ( time based, # of battles/sieges they participate in, up until the end of the war)
• Where you need them (distance from captial would be exponentially more expensive to prevent dropship troops)

That combined would work out a contract price that you'd pay upon releasing them. Monthly upkeep is still paid.

They'd take some time, maybe 1-2 weeks for staging and deployment, and they'd be at full morale.
After the contract was complete, you'd get an invoice, and if you can't pay it, they'd do stuff like:

• Join your enemy for free in their next war.
• Seize a county in lieu of payment (maybe with the aid of people who don't care for you)
• Label you and by extension your children personae non gratae, so you cannot re-hire them for 2 generations.

That's my idea.

I would have you pay some money up front and then when you release them have an event with a couple options like "of course you will be paid", "give him anything he wants, just get those swords out of here", and "I have no use for honorless dogs! Get out of my sight!" That last one (or running out of money for upkeep) would prompt the current set of revenge options for mercenaries.

 

[afrodius]

I do agree the 0 morale thing is lame. Having to wait a couple months before mercs are ready to fight is stupid. It would make more sense if they spawned with full morale, but at their own home base of operations instead of your capital, and then had to march or be ferried to the battle zone. I guess that could be exploited if the mercs home base was in enemy territory though. Honestly I rarely use them, and when I do its usually in a defensive war I don't think I can win on my own.

 

[Kent_Lang]

@IntoTheMaelstrom
Basically mercs 101. I usually spend my money on upgrading a good county with several forts so I can put a marshal on there and get some of his bonuses while putting all my vassals on money sponsorship so I can sponsor my personal armies. While the AI got like 1k troops in his demense and 7 - 8 k between his vassals I got around 7k troops in my demense and 1k troops between my vassals.

On a long term spending basis it's almost always a better idea to spend the money on boosting the demense than on the mercs. And in my opinion it's also for the most part better to rely on vassals to sponsoring your demense financially than with levies. Ironically they'll even support this, giving you more money while their own coffers bleed dry - leaving them with maybe better levies but far worse base to expand their holdings which keep them relatively weak and forces them to play wide.

When I use mercs I use them when things are looking desperate or when I want to quickly overpower a rival. As a emperor with many wealthy vassals this isn't a problem, but as a king with a few vassals they're a huge gamble and it almost never works out in my favor and I never learn to stop using mercs this way. Since they spawn with 0 morale they're really bad at blitzkrieging or in desperate situations since it'll take one or two months for their morale to recover to the point that they might even be useful. Storming the ememy's defenses is good if you do need to reduce the mercs numbers right away but I needed them for a decisive victory against my opponent's somewhat stronger army. 1000 is puny if you're for instance the kaiser of the HRE or a very successful and powerful vassal but it's quite a lot if you're trying to recover from losing a bunch of your titles like I was. Your description here basically proves my point that the mercs are unbalanced and poorly implemented in the game since they heavily boost the power of already powerful characters while being downright detrimental and practically useless to less powerful characters.

I do agree the 0 morale thing is lame. Having to wait a couple months before mercs are ready to fight is stupid. It would make more sense if they spawned with full morale, but at their own home base of operations instead of your capital, and then had to march or be ferried to the battle zone. I guess that could be exploited if the mercs home base was in enemy territory though. Honestly I rarely use them, and when I do its usually in a defensive war I don't think I can win on my own.

You know I'd rather have the mercs spawning somewhere on them map and having to escort them to their objective than having them spawn near or on my capital with 0 morale. The fact that you have to pay for useless mercs at 0 morale is stupid too. Why are we paying for people that aren't producing results for us? It would be like an employer paying their workers to commute to work or paying their recess.

 

[Rags17]

Later in the game dozens of dynamic and adventurer (ie second son) merc bands will crop up but I agree that in the beginning of most games the choice is between paying a ridiculous amount of gold for an OP merc company or getting nothing.

One little workaround I like to do is set up my own merc band then keep pumping it up until it is around half the size of all other bands. At that point it will be the perfect "price point" between tiny nomad adventurer bands and the full on 6-8,000 man super bands.

If that is not enough then you could consider creating a mod that adds say half a dozen small to mid range bands to help you out in the early years. In my experience by the time you get to the ate game mercs are pretty much redundant - retinues give far more bang for your buck and are always available as and where you need them, AND with no huge up front fee.

 

[IntoTheMaelstrom]

You want to see problems with mercs? Try custom mongol zunist ruler in orkney or ireland. You will have like 1 merc band available, if not 0

 

[Rags17]

You want to see problems with mercs? Try custom mongol zunist ruler in orkney or ireland. You will have like 1 merc band available, if not 0

Umm, WAI ?

If you are the only Mongol Zunist in Ireland then isn't it kind of obvious that there will be no Mongol Zunist mercenary bands in your area ?

OTOH, another way of looking at the issue is that mercenary bands are not dynamic enough - if you did start as a Mongol Zunist in Ireland then yeas there should be no mercenaries in your area. However, as time passed and more Mongols and Zunists started moving or being born on your area then more Mongol Zunist mercenary bands should appear.

What I would REALLY like to see is some way for dynamic mercenary bands to be cut loose so that you could sponsor a merc band of your own culture and religion, then send it off to seek its own fortune as you start and build up another and another . . .

 

[MentziaIII]

One little workaround I like to do is set up my own merc band then keep pumping it up until it is around half the size of all other bands. At that point it will be the perfect "price point" between tiny nomad adventurer bands and the full on 6-8,000 man super bands.

Does the Ck 2 Wiki explain how to set up your own Merc band ? Some article elsewhere on the internet ? Or do you have to mod the game , or console command , in some way ?

I have always wanted to play a Landgrave of Hesse - Kassel - type of scenario . a merc business would seem an excellent way to at least partially finance a small state and / or beef up a small states army to a degree it could otherwise never afford.

If not , I would STILL like to role play the Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel.

 

[Admiral_Obvious]

Does the Ck 2 Wiki explain how to set up your own Merc band ? Some article elsewhere on the internet ? Or do you have to mod the game , or console command , in some way ?

I have always wanted to play a Landgrave of Hesse - Kassel - type of scenario . a merc business would seem an excellent way to at least partially finance a small state and / or beef up a small states army to a degree it could otherwise never afford.

If not , I would STILL like to role play the Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel.

What specifically is the question? Are you asking how to form the band, or are you asking about the unit composition, or maybe the price tag the mercs have?

For the first one, you can usually use a courier with a martial education, or depending on the religion, you can have a kid assigned to lead a mercenary band.

The second one, I'd try and go for lots of pikes and heavy infantry, that way you won't have to send them new men as often.

For the price, it's hard to say. Making the merc unit super expensive discourages the AI from contracting them. Super low and they're always contracted, but they'll basically have no troops, and end up giving you less cash as the men die.

 

[MentziaIII]

Are you asking how to form the band
.

^ I was asking this. At this point , I suppose it is enough just to know that you CAN do such a thing. I never knew you could do such a thing. ^^

 

[Rags17]

^ I was asking this. At this point , I suppose it is enough just to know that you CAN do such a thing. I never knew you could do such a thing. ^^

Right click on any courtier with a military education and the option will appear. Some cultures/religions may be blocked (I have no idea which, just guessing eg Jain), but it works for all Christian and pagan realms AFAIK.

 

[afrodius]

I actually DID have my merc band break free one time. I always said no anytime they asked for anything, never hired them myself as I never needed them, the captain ended up hating me and eventually said something along the lines of screw you. My penalty to levies went away and I was able to create a new merc company.

 

[IntoTheMaelstrom]

Umm, WAI ?

If you are the only Mongol Zunist in Ireland then isn't it kind of obvious that there will be no Mongol Zunist mercenary bands in your area ?

OTOH, another way of looking at the issue is that mercenary bands are not dynamic enough - if you did start as a Mongol Zunist in Ireland then yeas there should be no mercenaries in your area. However, as time passed and more Mongols and Zunists started moving or being born on your area then more Mongol Zunist mercenary bands should appear.

What I would REALLY like to see is some way for dynamic mercenary bands to be cut loose so that you could sponsor a merc band of your own culture and religion, then send it off to seek its own fortune as you start and build up another and another . . .

I mean maybe they fixed it, but I recall no mercenary band showing up. It's like I can't hire scotts to defeat englishmen? Really? They are paid to fight, not to moralize me.