How come mostly only guys play Paradox Games/grand strategy?

[Adonnus]

In theory, of course the answer is obvious, "only guys like that kind of stuff." But why is that I've wondered? This question occurred to me after I saw the viewership statistics for a video I made about Hearts of Iron IV, 98% male. Hmmm... I wonder why it is? Maybe because history is mostly dominated by male figures...? Maybe this isn't true, but it is what I have so far observed.

 

[Vedinu]

In theory, of course the answer is obvious, "only guys like that kind of stuff." But why is that I've wondered? This question occurred to me after I saw the viewership statistics for a video I made about Hearts of Iron IV, 98% male. Hmmm... I wonder why it is? Maybe because history is mostly dominated by male figures...?

That would only prevent militant feminists from playing. I think the reason is indeed just "only guys like that kind of stuff". Maybe they don't like waging war for fun. Maybe they don't care for strategy. Maybe they are less interested in history and politics. Maybe they just don't play games.

 

[diegosimeone]

Most gamers are guys. Most girls who like gaming are probably into consoles like Wii or pc games like Sims. Most guys play sports or 'violent' games that involve shooting, spy stuff or war games. Also, many girls who like playing video games are usually not well-researched and they'll usually play what their boyfriends or male friends talk to them about [or games that are heavily advertised]... I don't think strategy games (that are labelled by many as 'nerd' games) are something you're gonna hype to a girl you want to impress I'm sure that a large number of women play this kind of games but they definitely are a small minority. I think in the OT section of the Paradox Forums there's like 2-3 active female users at best.
It's rather similar to 'taste' in movies. War movies appeal more to males while Rom Coms appeal more to females and so on. So it's not really a marketing failure or anything of that sort, it's just how things are with this genre. History itself is appealing to everyone, regardless of sex, so I don't think that's the issue.

 

[zharliette]

Most gamers are guys. Most girls who like gaming are probably into consoles like Wii or pc games like Sims. Most guys play sports or 'violent' games that involve shooting, spy stuff or war games. Also, many girls who like playing video games are usually not well-researched and they'll usually play what their boyfriends or male friends talk to them about [or games that are heavily advertised]... I don't think strategy games (that are labelled by many as 'nerd' games) are something you're gonna hype to a girl you want to impress I'm sure that a large number of women play this kind of games but they definitely are a small minority. I think in the OT section of the Paradox Forums there's like 2-3 active female users at best.
It's rather similar to 'taste' in movies. War movies appeal more to males while Rom Coms appeal more to females and so on. So it's not really a marketing failure or anything of that sort, it's just how things are with this genre. History itself is appealing to everyone, regardless of sex, so I don't think that's the issue.

That's wrong on so many levels, I don't even know where to start. Girls do play video games and mostly they play the same games that boys play. I mean, sure. At certain age it's more likely that parents buy Sims to their daughters and GTA to sons, but as they grow up, these things equal out. There's absolutely no reason to say "girls don't play video games and if they do, it's what their male friends play". Please let's not forget that they are people capable of independent thought.

But I have two main theories as to why guys are (seemingly) more likely to play grand strat.

1. You just assume that most of the people here are guys, because there isn't much to indicate sex in most usernames.
2. Girls don't want to participate in the forums for obvious reasons (see: gamergate).

Of course, there is some truth to the fact that generally, girls are not expected to like such things and are somewhat discouraged from it, but I think if we take the younger generations, ie people in their 20s or younger, this isn't very much the case anymore.

 

[-Malovane-]

Well, strategy games have never been really loved by women.

It's been speculated that men like these win-lose games because they are more competitive, whereas women like the more cooperative approach. Personally, I find this a bit nonsensical, as women can be incredibly competitive and combative. They also aren't averse to win-lose situations - at least where they think they can win.

My personal opinion is that the games favor reason, logic, and future modelling - and that the females of our species, whether through biology or social indoctrination (or both), are less adapted to such things. Take a look at female chess players. Even those who have dedicated thousands of hours to the game do quite poorly in comparison to their male counterparts. So, they usually shy away from them, as it's not where their strengths are.

 

[vaca_loca]

For whatever reason, women tend to be less nerdy than men. PC gamers are generally in the nerdier side of the gamer spectrum. Strategy gamers in the nerdier side of the PC gamers spectrum. And grand strategy players in the nerdier side of strategy gamers. Not that I have a good definition of nerdy, but my point is that there are few women playing grand strategy because it is the extreme of areas where women are already rare. I'm not a social or brain scientist to know the reasons for that, but looking at the big picture it seems coherent.

 

[GRFenrir]

You could theorize all you want as to the underlying reasons of women being a tiny minority in grand strategy games, but I believe this gender disparity is accentuated by the absolutely male-dominated multiplayer scene. This is the internet, so if I was a woman I would hide the my gender if I was playing with 31 guys(taking an EU4 session as an example). I don't think I need to explain why.

Also, games like these require a significant time investment. Unfortunately I think it's still less socially accepted for a woman to spend a lot of time on video games, than a man.

 

[SAS]

Here is my take based on both my pc gaming and my wife. I play games to be entertained and wine down/de-stress. I enjoy organizational games and ones that make me think, not just eye candy shooters. Thus I play EU IV, CK, Vic II, and HOI 3. Now don't get me wrong i play FPS also but mostly on my PS4. My wife on the other hand plays video games to pass the time while she is doing other things like watching her tv shows while she winds down. This limits the types of games she can/will play. She likes games that she does not view as "work." I in no way am saying this is the majority case for women, its just my two cents. Now if Paradox releases more phone/tablet type games they will get a cash cow, wife loves those games.

 

[diegosimeone]

That's wrong on so many levels, I don't even know where to start. Girls do play video games and mostly they play the same games that boys play. I mean, sure. At certain age it's more likely that parents buy Sims to their daughters and GTA to sons, but as they grow up, these things equal out. There's absolutely no reason to say "girls don't play video games and if they do, it's what their male friends play". Please let's not forget that they are people capable of independent thought.

But I have two main theories as to why guys are (seemingly) more likely to play grand strat.

1. You just assume that most of the people here are guys, because there isn't much to indicate sex in most usernames.
2. Girls don't want to participate in the forums for obvious reasons (see: gamergate).

Of course, there is some truth to the fact that generally, girls are not expected to like such things and are somewhat discouraged from it, but I think if we take the younger generations, ie people in their 20s or younger, this isn't very much the case anymore.

I don't know where you get all that "they are people capable of independent thought" speech from my post. I don't know how life in Estonia is but what I described is pretty much most girls I know from Greece, Italy, Spain, England and the USA as well as a few others who are aged 23+ to 35ish(though most girls I know over 27 haven't ever played a videogame and some younger ones have only tried gameboy as kids or wii. All that have ipads seem rather keen on ipad stuff). It's how girls used to get into "tech" stuff that is marketed at boys. Their level of interest will definitely spark further interaction in the tech markets and this is where we are now where it's not weird for a girl to play video games. But the tendency for women playing video games was to follow a trend, usually sparked by a male, be it their dad, brother, friend or boyfriend. I don't see how this reality seems so offensive to you

 

[AndPimentel]

Women are mostly casual gamers. It might change in the future, but that's it for now.

 

[zharliette]

I don't know where you get all that "they are people capable of independent thought" speech from my post. I don't know how life in Estonia is but what I described is pretty much most girls I know from Greece, Italy, Spain, England and the USA as well as a few others who are aged 23+ to 35ish(though most girls I know over 27 haven't ever played a videogame and some younger ones have only tried gameboy as kids or wii. All that have ipads seem rather keen on ipad stuff). It's how girls used to get into "tech" stuff that is marketed at boys. Their level of interest will definitely spark further interaction in the tech markets and this is where we are now where it's not weird for a girl to play video games. But the tendency for women playing video games was to follow a trend, usually sparked by a male, be it their dad, brother, friend or boyfriend. I don't see how this reality seems so offensive to you

I'm sorry if I misintepreted your post, but the "Also, many girls who like playing video games are usually not well-researched and they'll usually play what their boyfriends or male friends talk to them about [or games that are heavily advertised]." bit did sound pretty much like "girls can't into independent thought and must rely on information of males."

On the whole I agree - it has a lot to do with girls are taught not to be very tech-savvy and games being marketed mainly to boys, but if I look at people my age and younger than me, ie 20 and younger, that trend is somewhat disappearing. Although personal observations aren't really a good source of information as such. Most of my bias - if you can call it that - comes from my own family. I have one sister who is by far a bigger gaming-nerd than I am(I'm very casual in that regard), and a younger sister who regulary demanded to play GTA when she was younger. And then I have two nieces who are both avid console-players. And also I have a girlfriend who also plays quite a lot and one of her favorite games is CK2. So...yeah. Coming from such backround, I have to say, I personally haven't seen any difference whatsoever. I mean, sure - I've met people who don't play video-games or only play very little, but I can't honestly say such people tend to be girls.

But if we're talking about PI games and grand strategy in general...I don't really know what could cause such sex-difference. Especially if you take CK2 as an example. I mean, HoI and EU perhaps dwell in the territory of war and bloodshed that usually isn't considered girly and therefore girls are somewhat discouraged from playing such games(although they do play FPS games and the such, so obviously this argument doesn't hold water and there is probably something else at play), but CK is another beast entirely. I see no reason why there should be more male CK players. I have often jokingly said that CK is basically a game version of tumblr.

 

[satyrlord]

#GamerGate aside (this is no place to talk about that, although it's certainly the most important political issue in gaming at the moment), the answer to OP's question is VERY complicated. Since males and females of all species are obviously different, they have different hopes and needs, and products on the market are designed to fill those needs.

There are plenty of female gamers, casual and hardcore alike, my girlfriend is a dedicated hardcore gamer and she did learn to play EU4 however the game just doesn't appeal to her just like other games don't appeal to me. Games are so many and diverse that they can afford to specialize and appeal to a certain demographic. Some of them are obligated to rely on that demographic for survival.

So if you're asking why grand strategy gaming is not appealing to women, you'd better ask yourself why strategies of war are not appealing to women. There are plenty of women warriors and tacticians, however GSG is more about strategy not tactics. Cultural conditioning as well as marketing, biological determinism and just plain-old aesthetics, they all have a factor in this.

I think you should seek answers in the following places: sociology, group psychology, marketing or, maybe, ask a girl. I could ask my girlfriend her opinion on the subject but she's too busy programming or gaming to offer a response.

Also, I used to play EU3 with one of my exes. I remember she was very competent at holding the country together however, when it came to warfare, and it always did, she just got too emotional and started to miss the big picture. However, this is an anecdote and is in no way a statistically-validated stereotype.

 

[Lemont Elwood]

In theory, of course the answer is obvious, "only guys like that kind of stuff." But why is that I've wondered? This question occurred to me after I saw the viewership statistics for a video I made about Hearts of Iron IV, 98% male. Hmmm... I wonder why it is? Maybe because history is mostly dominated by male figures...? Maybe this isn't true, but it is what I have so far observed.

I've yet to meet a woman who had any real interest in history.

I don't know why this is, but there seems to be a general anti-intellectualism among women, with the arts being the only subject they appreciate. These are, of course, just tendencies; you can cherry-pick as many counterexamples as you want, but they don't override the trend.

 

[satyrlord]

I've yet to meet a woman who had any real interest in history.

I don't know why this is, but there seems to be a general anti-intellectualism among women, with the arts being the only subject they appreciate. These are, of course, just tendencies; you can cherry-pick as many counterexamples as you want, but they don't override the trend.

Again, it's all about cultural conditioning. Perhaps the society in which you are located has a significant anti-intellectual bias however, in other societies, academia is more diverse. I will not make assumptions about your location however, in most of the EU, females are equally represented in academia, of course with STEM fields being somewhat dominated by male students and teachers while the social and humanistic domains being more female-dominated. And yes, that includes history and geography.

 

[Vedinu]

I'd say here in Finland everyone is mildly anti-intellectual regardless of gender
That said, a lot of my male friends are interested in history, but I have not met a woman who is deeply interested in history, although they generally do like nice trivia. I know one who is studying politics and social sciences though.

 

[Korbah]

I know several women who play grand strategy and strategy games in general; I think the proposed lack of female gamers is more a matter of limited social contacts than actual lack of female gamers (that is, you guys simply don't speak to, or don't know you're speaking to/playing with women, not that it should matter).

As to women being uninterested in history, my wife would dispute this. She teaches history, politics and geography; perfect for playing Paradox games I think (and so does she; her "Swiss Africa" was impressive in her last Victoria II game). Same with "unresearched"; she regularly reads gaming publications.

 

[exin]

I would argue that the reason mostly guys play these types of games is pretty simple. It is all about the mechanics and gender specific preferences. Because guys are by all means stronger, it is how we are conceived still due to evolution, we like games that are tailored to that. We like shooters, macho games, and strategy games. Strategy games because it is all about conquering, which means soldiers, which boils down to a more complex shooter/fighter game, except you are not the one shooting, but the one commanding. In Paradox Game, you are in charge of thousands, and millions of soldiers who go about and kill for your pleasure.

Women on the other hand, being physically weaker than us, again due to our evolution to date, prefer activities and lines of work where they use their minds more, which is their strong point. I for one personally believe that if you get a man and a woman, with equal upbringing, education and abilities, the man will win most physical challenges, while the woman will win most intellectual ones. As such they prefer games that are either casual, or require them to use more of their mind power. Now strategy in itself is consuming for the mind, but honestly... it still boils down to soldiers and swords mostly in the majority of games. So they are not challenging for girls. Paradox Games, good as they might be, they are with the exception of Victoria 2, map painter games. The only activity you have is conquering the map and painting it in your color. There is no peacetime occupation. And if there is, it is limited and uninteresting. Vicky 2 lets you play politics and industry, and that is about it, but even those two are limited, at after a time there is only so much you can do.

So simply Paradox games do not offer enough challenge for girls, there is no real and meaningful intrigue, no real peace time building of a province, other than clicking the same stuff if you have money. There is simply no real meaning occupation other than war. My wife for example thinks the games I play, Vicky 2, CK2 and EUIV are boring. At the same time when I play a good RPG, she likes to watch me from time to time. And I even got her to play Space Engineers, and she does play quite a bit, given she is not a gamer, due to the challenge of building new and formerly impossible things.

 

[Illanair]

As to women being uninterested in history, my wife would dispute this. She teaches history, politics and geography; perfect for playing Paradox games I think (and so does she; her "Swiss Africa" was impressive in her last Victoria II game). Same with "unresearched"; she regularly reads gaming publications.

I can second that - The missus has a major hardon for European Royal History.

 

[loup99]

Any women here who can comment on this?

I think that having a more diverse group of players, both genderwise and agewise (not many old people) would add a lot to the PDS community and forums in general.

 

[Had a dad]

Any women here who can comment on this?

I think that having a more diverse group of players, both genderwise and agewise (not many old people) would add a lot to the PDS community and forums in general.

Why would they want to, as in this thread, we've already learned that women are only causal gamers, all grand strategy games are only played by nerds, women won't do nerdy things and Pdx games aren't challenging for women...

Guess I should go tell my GF, and Secret Masters wife that they cannot play anymore Pdx games.

As for agewise, this forum does have a very diverse age of members.

EDIT and we need to ban Kohbah's wife too