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guare

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Feb 21, 2014
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  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2
I recently got the Heart of Darkness expasion, and my very first game I chose the 2 Sicilies. Italian unification is the best game in my opinion.

First thing I do is get lots of prestige, done. Then industrialize like hell, done. When I was ready to kick Austria's ass, for my surprise, there's no Casus Belli on them. In later versions, as soon as you become a superpower, you can declare war anytime on the Austrians to get Lombardia from them. Now, it seems, I have to forge a CB on them, with infamy penalties.

Why god, why? Italy unification is hard like hell, and now? It became worse.

Poor Garibaldi...
 
Pretty realistic.

Well to be fair the only reason Garibaldi was so supportive of the Piedmontese was because A) it's king was the only real contender to unite a italy and B) because they were the were more liberal than all the other Italian states and the only ones against Austria.

So if Two Sicilies were a great power and a constitutional monarchy Garibaldi would probably have supported them
 
Well to be fair the only reason Garibaldi was so supportive of the Piedmontese was because A) it's king was the only real contender to unite a italy and B) because they were the were more liberal than all the other Italian states and the only ones against Austria.

So if Two Sicilies were a great power and a constitutional monarchy Garibaldi would probably have supported them

He was a gruesome mercenary that joined a secret society that used guerrilla tactics, false flag attacks and manouvred rebellions funded by the british and the french. I highly doubt he had any concern as to how liberal this guy or that other guy was: the actual liberal was Mazzini here, and Garibaldi didn't have any problems going to beg at the sardinian court (where he got refused once already) to wage war against the austrians, after having done horrible things to basically half of the american continent. He had no problems declaring himself dictator of Sicily: how liberal is it to use an army of professionals (the "mille") against the rioting peasants of Palermo to defend the ancién regime landlords?

Truth is, Garibaldi went where gold and his bloodlust led him. The sicilians were FAR, FAR, FAR richer and held more land than the piedmontese, but had no intent in toppling the rightful rulers of the rest of the country: the Savoia, on the other hand, needed gold to fund their bank where they printed cash without having the currency counterpart. They were in deep debt and inflation before the french and the british came, and with them came the "hero" of the anglo-french wars in southern America, Garibaldi. So they staged this "liberation" and doomed southern Italy to 150 years of poverty and mafia, which is the remnant of the people that were offered gold and a place in the sun in exchange of armed men to topple the sicilians: it's no coincidence mafia organizations date back to the late 1800s.

So no. Garibaldi didn't go at the sardinian court due to how the Savoia were liberal: he went there because no other southern european power would employ such scum.
 
Ideologies and personality aside, you still needed titanium basketball-sized cojones to face Austria with a bunch of mercenaries...

If you look closely at history, there are no good guys. If you rose to the power, you did nasty stuff. Simple as that.

But I still want to know how the heck I get Lombardia! :)
 
Ideologies and personality aside, you still needed titanium basketball-sized cojones to face Austria with a bunch of mercenaries...

If you look closely at history, there are no good guys. If you rose to the power, you did nasty stuff. Simple as that.

But I still want to know how the heck I get Lombardia! :)
I think they made it so you need Nationalism and Imperialism to get the culture group CB; otherwise Austria and Prussia beat down Denmark on day 1.

As SDSkinner said you need the Nationalism and Imperialism tech (in the culture tree) which should give you access to the culture group CB. This works for German nations as well and as SDSkinner said again this was to prevent Austria and Prussia attack Denmark on day 1 which used to nearly every game pre HOD
 
I usually puppet SP, release Venezia, Lombardia and occupy Two Sicilies as Austria for a few years to have an awesome reliable ally, just need to make sure they stay out of GP.
As soon as Redshirts take over a capital every country will get an event and from experience will say yes unless they are a sphereling, so anything but a sphereling will become an united Italy.
 
The sicilians were FAR, FAR, FAR richer and held more land than the piedmontese

You were right up to this point. No, the Two Sicilies were not a richer country than SP, if not for the size. Naples was a big a quite modern city, but out of there you went back half a millennium to feudalism. Spain had economically devastated the country in its domination, and the regime that followed changed little of this. While the Savoia's approach to the Southern Question was a series of blunders and flat-out horrible acts, neo-Borbonic claims that Naples was somewhat an Italian England are ridiculous.
 
You were right up to this point. No, the Two Sicilies were not a richer country than SP, if not for the size. Naples was a big a quite modern city, but out of there you went back half a millennium to feudalism. Spain had economically devastated the country in its domination, and the regime that followed changed little of this. While the Savoia's approach to the Southern Question was a series of blunders and flat-out horrible acts, neo-Borbonic claims that Naples was somewhat an Italian England are ridiculous.

The two sicilies weren't filthy rich, but still richer than the piedmontese, if not for the size. )) For sure they weren't a great power. They were an old power, an old state, and so forth.
I agree on the rest, the riches of Naples are many times overexaggerated by a lot of italian historians. But then again, I think we both know the kind of guy who "uses" his country's good-doings to boost his own ego, as if he did those things in person! It's always about that damn first railroad, eh?

The sardinian would have collapsed under the weight of inflation in a few years if they didn't act quick and use other people's stuff to mend their wrong doings: where the Two Sicilies where somewhat stable, SP was on a downwards curve in my opinion.
 
He was a gruesome mercenary that joined a secret society that used guerrilla tactics, false flag attacks and manouvred rebellions funded by the british and the french. I highly doubt he had any concern as to how liberal this guy or that other guy was: the actual liberal was Mazzini here, and Garibaldi didn't have any problems going to beg at the sardinian court (where he got refused once already) to wage war against the austrians, after having done horrible things to basically half of the american continent. He had no problems declaring himself dictator of Sicily: how liberal is it to use an army of professionals (the "mille") against the rioting peasants of Palermo to defend the ancién regime landlords?

Truth is, Garibaldi went where gold and his bloodlust led him. The sicilians were FAR, FAR, FAR richer and held more land than the piedmontese, but had no intent in toppling the rightful rulers of the rest of the country: the Savoia, on the other hand, needed gold to fund their bank where they printed cash without having the currency counterpart. They were in deep debt and inflation before the french and the british came, and with them came the "hero" of the anglo-french wars in southern America, Garibaldi. So they staged this "liberation" and doomed southern Italy to 150 years of poverty and mafia, which is the remnant of the people that were offered gold and a place in the sun in exchange of armed men to topple the sicilians: it's no coincidence mafia organizations date back to the late 1800s.

So no. Garibaldi didn't go at the sardinian court due to how the Savoia were liberal: he went there because no other southern european power would employ such scum.

Pretty sure Sardinia-Piedmont was the only Italian country with notable industrialisation in this period, Sicily was mostly still feudal and agricultural. Highly doubt that an island which can't afford a military strong enough to defeat a hastily-scraped-together guerilla force were 'far far richer' than an industrialised, moderately progressive state.

As for his motives, his brutality in warfare hardly shows his motives to be purely for gold. If he didn't care about Italy, would he really have thrown himself and his men against the larger, better equipped and entrenched French garrison in Rome? Even when the situation was bleak and became increasingly worse throughout the battle? There's not much gold in death.
Garibaldi had been known to sack towns and cities, and this is fairly common to an extent in early raiding and guerilla forces because they tend to have little to no lines of supply, and he was certainly a brutal commander, but that doesn't mean he fought in Italy purely out of self-interest.
 
Pretty sure Sardinia-Piedmont was the only Italian country with notable industrialisation in this period, Sicily was mostly still feudal and agricultural. Highly doubt that an island which can't afford a military strong enough to defeat a hastily-scraped-together guerilla force were 'far far richer' than an industrialised, moderately progressive state.

As for his motives, his brutality in warfare hardly shows his motives to be purely for gold. If he didn't care about Italy, would he really have thrown himself and his men against the larger, better equipped and entrenched French garrison in Rome? Even when the situation was bleak and became increasingly worse throughout the battle? There's not much gold in death.
Garibaldi had been known to sack towns and cities, and this is fairly common to an extent in early raiding and guerilla forces because they tend to have little to no lines of supply, and he was certainly a brutal commander, but that doesn't mean he fought in Italy purely out of self-interest.

The Two Sicilies were NOT an island, they were the lower half of mainland Italy plus Sicily. They were not heavily industrialized (they were known as the granary of Europe) but had some highs, namely the shipyard of Castellamare di Stabia, Pietrarsa (largest machine parts factory in Europe), the first steamboat in Europe that used screw propulsion. Not to mention the state subsidized and funded heavily the industrial complex, something that doesn't really scream backwards craphole. Cotton, sulfur, iron, not to mention pasta and edible goods. The Two Sicilies alone could satisfy the entirety of the world's sulphur needs, if needed.

The real problem there was that the british WANTED the Two Sicilies to get utterly destroyed, and this is a very important thing, due to an economical .. let's call it "clash" that happened in the 40s: the sulphur mines were the focus of the problem. At the beginning, more than half of the sulphur in Sicily went overseas, to Britain, due to a deal made by the sicilians with the english, that gave them practical monopoly over the sulphur mines. With time the sicilians realized that was detrimental to their economy and started training workers on their own, on top of giving some of the concessions to a french company, Tax et Aycard. Lord Palmerston, a british lord, told the king of the Two Sicilies that he DEMANDED monopoly over the sulphur mines. This created a diplomatic incident at the next court party, where the king didn't greet the british delegation, preferring the Russian Empire delegates instead. On top of the economical loss, the british also got insulted.

South Italy, the Two Sicilies, HAD to be annihilated for three reasons:
1) the importance south italy would get due to the incoming opening of the Suez canal;
2) the treatment the king of Naples reserved to the freemason lodges existing in its reign;
3) the utter coldness of the relations between the two realms.

It's a long story, but to make it short it was Cavour who pointed out the name of Lord Palmerston to fund the anti-borbonic rebellions.
When the mille landed in Marsala (which, by that time, was basically a british colony), the captain log of the Stromboli (head ship of the sicilian fleet) says that all the british soldiers on the ships -oddly at bay, not in the docks- were dressed in red, like the pirates he was told to hunt by the king. When the Stromboli saw the pirates (the mille) they already landed, and the british shops and houses on the docks raised the british flag under the orders of the ambassador (which lived in Marsala), "to avoid creating an international incident", he said. The brits were so many in the Marsala defense that a guy got lightly injured at a foot and a dog died. The Two Sicilies couldn't defend themselves.


Maybe the fact that a RICH state with a growing industrial economy (but an ancién regime head, not really friendly to jacobines) couldn't face a thousand "hastily-scrapped-together" militia should tell you that maybe those thousand weren't so hastily scrapped together but were indeed a professional mercenary force; maybe it should tell you that the port where they started the invasion had been set up in a certain way by the brits and french so that the sicilians couldn't shoot to stop the invasion; maybe there were powers higher than a lowly mercenary taking charge in that moment of the fate of one of the few last old countries.

The spanish and the british (with the protectorate) made of the Two Sicilies a sad and miserable state, it was only after Charles Bourbon that the country started heading upwards, and it still was before Garibaldi came: in the year 1860 the Two Sicilies had a patrimony of 455 MILLION lire in gold and coin, whereas Sardinia Piedmont had a meager 27 million lire of patrimony.
As I stated before, Sardinia Piedmont was on the verge of economical failure due to the lack of gold in their banks and the great amount of worthless paper they printed to pretend they were bigger than what they actually were. I'll tell you more: the entirety of pre-unitary states of Italy without the Two Sicilies doesn't income to HALF of what the Two Sicilies had in gold.
Gold that obviously disappeared when Garibaldi nominated himself as dictator of Sicily and sedated the revolting (and starving) farmers' revolts with his army.

This trend is even more obvious if you look at the taxation in both realms: the Two Sicilies kept it constant for around fifty years, whereas Sardinia-Piedmont added around 4 or 5 new taxes every year in hope of getting out of the devastating inflation and economic collapse they were about to face.

I could go on for hours on how your view of the Two Sicilies and Sardinia-Piedmont and the entirety of the processes that governed what happened in those years is imbalanced and short sighted, but I think this is enough evidence to make your statement on how the Two Sicilies were poor and "an island which can't afford a military strong enough to defeat the mille" a poorly worded, uneducated, wrong opinion.
 
I wouldn't call it 'evidence', seeing as it's all coming purely from you and is unsourced. I'd be interested to know where you got all this from though. And I was referring to 'Sicily' as an island, which you will find most definitely is an island.

Either way, you're clearly very emotionally attached to the issue and I really can't be bothered nitpicking that unnecessarily long post to defend an in-game change I suggested that will almost definitely never be implemented either way.
Not sure why you're defending the Bourbons though when in 1820 Ferdinand I asked the Austrians to come and crush a revolution against him and then Ferdinand II (in 1848) crushed those same Sicilian farmers when they revolted against him, just like Garibaldi :confused: