The 'More Depth' idea thread

[TheArkayn]

There's a large and vocal portion of the Crusader Kings fanbase that is asking for more depth, all in small disparate and scattered threads, so let's attempt to cooperate and think of ways to create more depth in the game in one big idea sheet.

Personally, I'm excited for the India expansion, because I think it'll be fun.

But I do think making the pond deeper rather than wider is a worthy goal.

Shoot for a fair balance between history and fun, and let's try to give suggestions in the form of potential mechanics or events, rather than just saying "The HRE needs more depth" or "Decadence is broken"

-----------------------------------------------------Suggestion List----------------------------------------------------

Dynasty Relations -

a dynasty loyalty system that makes it so I don't have to have civil war every time my character dies. It should be both modelled as a dynasty-to-dynasty relation system (ie if your dynasty is rivals with another one, you get a lower opinion of rulers of that dynasty, and AI are far more likely to try and get them out of power). But your dynasty should also get cadet branches; for instance, if you have a bastard child who creates a new dynasty, it should be treated as a cadet branch of yours, and get an opinion boost. Furthermore, your dynasty members AI should be far less likely to oppose you at every turn, as they seem to now.

Holy Roman Succession -

Make a new type of succession, HRE elective. Create a special title, elector, which is exclusively inheritable in agnatic primogeniture succession - Maria Theresa, first female elector, only came way after our time frame. Thus, it is made a bit challenging to keep the title in your family! Only electors can vote. There can be only 7; if one electorship dies out, the emperor can grant a new one. Also, make it possible for the Emperor to make some special decisions that reflect medieval laws (promote Roman law as the Emperor's law, Worms compromise with the Pope, Mainz general peace, Golden Bull, Eger general peace, institute Archduchy - only one in the empire - are just examples I came up with off the cuff).

Decadence -

Get rid of the free imprisonment! Spend money or piety to decrease the rate of decadence! Or make decadence something that only affects you rather than the entire family, and make it dependent solely on close family and your court. Or get rid of decadence completely and make Muslims stick with a choice between gavelkind and seniority (to make up for their great cbs - that can also be their undoing when somebody just invades - and the choice of Ashar and Muzuzuzu), so you have a reason for weeding out unpalatable family members to get them out of the succession game.

Hordes -

Make it possible for Tengrists on duchy, kingdom or empire level to abandon their territory, plunder their way around and then invade another duchy/kingdom/empire to set up shop there! If you end up in Spain that way and do not like it there, rinse and repeat. A republic-style barony off the map, your "yurt", which you can develop even when you are on the road, should help to keep you up to speed. Reform Tengriism to unlock spicey buildings in your yurt and make your horde organisation more efficient. New succession type for Horde should be Kurultai succession (one of your sons or brother will get picked).

Role-playing/Story -

A whole crapload of Events that randomly fire and select people around you.

For example, a brothers in conflict storyline, where 2 of your sons decide they are massive rivals and hate each other, and it randomly splits powerful lords of yours and gives them + friendly or - enemy tags based on this.

Story events where a neighbouring kings daughter runs away to marry your son, and you are forced to choose to send her back and have your son hate you and the other reprecussions, or accept her for a claim and risk open war.

Many more story events that effect your family and rule, such as your wife betraying you, your sons being great allies of each other, a bunch of grand conspiracy story events against you.

At the moment it just lacks that "story depth" that medieval europe had.

 

[Bonkster]

id much rather say there is a fairly large part of the vocal minority of the ck2 fanbase asking for these things. but anyways i i never thought they would add india (still happy that they are ^^). so i was hoping for some kind of rpg dlc. more interaction with courtiers. some sort of republic-family mansion for feudal lords. in most of my games i carve out my kingdom and then try to stay peacefull. maybe spread my dynasty. so i would like to have more things to do while at peace more events like feasts perhaps or more diplomatic interaction with your neighbours

as long as its no playable theocracies ^^

 

[Halcyan]

There's a large and vocal portion of the Crusader Kings fanbase that is asking for more depth, all in small disparate and scattered threads, so let's attempt to cooperate and think of ways to create more depth in the game in one big idea sheet.

Personally, I'm excited for the India expansion, because I think it'll be fun.

But I do think making the pond deeper rather than wider is a worthy goal.

Shoot for a fair balance between history and fun, and let's try to give suggestions in the form of potential mechanics or events, rather than just saying "The HRE needs more depth" or "Decadence is broken"

I am excited that I will get to learn Indian geography. CK2 is such a spectacular way to learn geography - it has really improved by European geography skills!

However, I do fall in the camp of preferring more depth to existing features rather than additional new features (which may be underdeveloped). This is a problem that occurs with LOTS of games (computer, board, card, etc.), not just CK2.

 

[Capulet]

Playable theocracies, for one.

If not, a dynasty loyalty system that makes it so I don't have to have civil war every time my character dies. It should be both modelled as a dynasty-to-dynasty relation system (ie if your dynasty is rivals with another one, you get a lower opinion of rulers of that dynasty, and AI are far more likely to try and get them out of power). But your dynasty should also get cadet branches; for instance, if you have a bastard child who creates a new dynasty, it should be treated as a cadet branch of yours, and get an opinion boost. Furthermore, your dynasty members AI should be far less likely to oppose you at every turn, as they seem to now.

 

[JvK1791]

Fleshed out HRE mechanics, something similar to LoR. Maybe something like the Imperial Diet....

 

[wilcoxchar]

I'd like to see the option for an electoral college succession law, with a college of cardinals but for a non-religious head title.

 

[Cardinal Sin]

OK, more depth suggestions.

HRE: Make a new type of succession, HRE elective. Create a special title, elector, which is exclusively inheritable in agnatic primogeniture succession - Maria Theresa, first female elector, only came way after our time frame. Thus, it is made a bit challenging to keep the title in your family! Only electors can vote. There can be only 7; if one electorship dies out, the emperor can grant a new one. Also, make it possible for the Emperor to make some special decisions that reflect medieval laws (promote Roman law as the Emperor's law, Worms compromise with the Pope, Mainz general peace, Golden Bull, Eger general peace, institute Archduchy - only one in the empire - are just examples I came up with off the cuff).

Decadence: get rid of the free imprisonment! Spend money or piety to decrease the rate of decadence! Or make decadence something that only affects you rather than the entire family, and make it dependent solely on close family and your court. Or get rid of decadence completely and make Muslims stick with a choice between gavelkind and seniority (to make up for their great cbs - that can also be their undoing when somebody just invades - and the choice of Ashar and Muzuzuzu), so you have a reason for weeding out unpalatable family members to get them out of the succession game.

Hordes: make it possible for Tengrists on duchy, kingdom or empire level to abandon their territory, plunder their way around and then invade another duchy/kingdom/empire to set up shop there! If you end up in Spain that way and do not like it there, rinse and repeat. A republic-style barony off the map, your "yurt", which you can develop even when you are on the road, should help to keep you up to speed. Reform Tengriism to unlock spicey buildings in your yurt and make your horde organisation more efficient. New succession type for Horde should be Kurultai succession (one of your sons or brother will get picked).

British Isles: set up witengamot succession! Put into place a proper system for the Irish high kingdom! Script a nice huge event for the Harrying of the North.

New starting date: Brilliant ones would be 955 (Otto the Great! Gain power as the Capets! Invade Bavaria as the Hungarians!) or, perhaps, if Paradox is really daring, 732 - battle of Poitiers. In that starting date, you may also legitimately have the last vestiges of Hellenism and Druidism^^

Just ideas for starters.

 

[Sarin]

I for one would like "Story Events"

A whole crapload of Events that randomly fire and select people around you.

For example, a brothers in conflict storyline, where 2 of your sons decide they are massive rivals and hate each other, and it randomly splits powerful lords of yours and gives them + friendly or - enemy tags based on this.

Story events where a neighbouring kings daughter runs away to marry your son, and you are forced to choose to send her back and have your son hate you and the other reprecussions, or accept her for a claim and risk open war.

Many more story events that effect your family and rule, such as your wife betraying you, your sons being great allies of each other, a bunch of grand conspiracy story events against you.

At the moment it just lacks that "story depth" that medieval europe had.

 

[Liar]

I have to agree with Sarin. I would like to have more story elements in the game. It's often why I play the mods with a lot of events because it fires off more things like that. It's hard enough that events rarely fire for me as it is.

 

[GC13]

First and foremost, a lot more needs to happen as a vassal, and the liege needs to be involved in it. There needs to be an entire screen named Court, broken up like Laws is if the character has multiple courts (i.e. if he's a duke there's his court of him and his counts, and his liege's court). There needs to be some kind of Favor ranking that has a base point of the liege's attitude towards each vassal, but is affected by new plots, decisions, and events that occur within the court. The liege may also add favor to a particular vassal (let's let the courtiers get in on the action too!) manually.

Vassals can attempt to cash-in favor for money (relatively small sums), prestige (likewise), council jobs, honorary titles (with some new ones added to go with this mechanic), landed titles, vassal transfers, and anything else that can be thought up. Just so the liege can enjoy playing his vassals off of each other, they don't get so mad at him if he gives things they want to someone with lower favor, but they get really steamed at the person who got the boon. Remember, your vassals can only be working one plot at a time. ^_^

Also, I'd like a Coup system built around retinues. Rather than be a standing army built in 500-man blocks, they are household guards built in 50-man blocks. They're pretty expensive to build up if you compare them to levies or mercenaries, but their loyalty to you is the real draw. You assign a leader of the guard, and he functions a lot like a spymaster does for regular schemes for the Coup scheme: important for whichever side he's on, so as always make sure he's loyal. When the schemers fire their coup, they try to take over, and have to contend with the retinue.

Rebellions also need a lot of work. Peasant rebels, probably religious rebels too, should essentially never happen as they do now, and should be turned into a province effect that gets worse and starts spreading over time, and is taken care of by parking an army in the province and the army commander doing an event chain. Liberator rebels should only rise up when the realm is weakened, probably during a war or a succession crisis. They should, a few weeks before spawning, give an event to the enemy leader asking for their support and/or an alliance. Then, regardless of his answer (which may very well be "we shall not ally with traitors!" as it would involve some prestige hit) they fire a little later into the war (unless there is a force mismatch which makes it obvious the war won't last long). Peasant and religious rebels should only rise up and form true armies that take the field against yours if the realm levies have been significantly depleted.

Finally, diplomacy needs a bit of touching up. I'm not so full of specific suggestions here, but a little bit of sitting around thinking "what kind of promises might players like to be able to make to the AI?" would help a lot, I think. Also, I do think it would be neat if you could ask a third party who liked you to mediate a war. You might still lose whatever the enemy had declared on you for, but perhaps it could ease the prestige hit?

 

[kemmy23]

In my view religion and culture need a significant amount of attention.

Religion in CK2 is the one that requires the most amount of work in my view. They all seem very similar to play, no matter which ones you choose. The only divergence from that pattern is when you are a minority religion (although that soon changes if you are successful with them).
Each religion needs to play differently for every ruler, and would make CK2 much better.

I have already made multiple suggestions regarding Shia Islam (found here). I believe the Sufis should be involved as well.

My suggestions regarding culture are much more geared towards asthetic issues. For example I believe that a Muslim Persian ruler should have significantly different clothing than a Persian Zoroastrian. Furthermore, the inclusion of Cardinal robes and White and Black turbans for Shia clerics is a must.

 

[Mr_Hobo]

A quick list off the top of my head:

1. Some people have already said this one I believe, some dynastic relations boosts/penalties that last over multiple generations. Giving a lowborn courtier his own kingdom should make his descendants very grateful to your descendants as you've made them nobles. Obviously this would decrease over time, and would depend on pretty direct succession. The traits of the vassal could determine whether or not the vassals would be loyal to only direct descendants or to other inheritors as well. If you assassinate/execute several members of one dynasty they could gain a blood feud against you, giving them a massive relations penalty against all members of your dynasty for several generations.

2. When you are caught assassinating anyone you suffer a relations penalty for being dishonorable, and you also suffer a "murdered close kin" penalty with their close relations. I propose modifying this a bit; for example, you are caught killing a duke and his son takes over. The son hated the father and wanted his title, so the son should get a relations boost with you for getting rid of the elder duke and putting him in charge. You will still incur the dishonorable penalty, but you will also get a boost with everyone who hated the duke. On the other hand, you will incur a further penalty with everyone who liked the duke.

3. There should also be a change in the Short/Long range penalties and bonuses. If you are an active, young ruler you should get a bonus with other young rulers. However, you may also get a penalty with older rulers who view you as challenging the status quo. Older rulers should generally get a long reign bonus, but younger dynasty members and ambitious young vassals should dislike older rulers. Rulers that are placed on thrones by rebellions should get the young ruler bonuses to prevent multiple civil wars.

4. Loyal vassals should be called into civil wars. Along with the above, this will help prevent multiple successive succession crises and represent the ruler's faction confronting the rebels' faction in a large civil war.

5. Currently, tyranny penalties are really messed up. Ending a war against rebels with a white peace should result in no possibility of imprisonment for rebellious vassals; a "white peace" is a return to the pre-war state with no repercussions. However, when a rebellion ends because of the death of a claimant the ruler should get tyranny-free imprisonments against the rebels. Also, if a vassal rebels, is imprisoned, is released/ransomed, and the rebels again his liege should get a tyranny-free banishment against him. Breaking the feudal contract once is one thing, but breaking it after having been mercifully forgiven should result in banishment.

That's all I've got for now, possibly more to come!

 

[wilcoxchar]

I would also like to see a bit of expansion on how anti-Popes work. Mostly just having other rulers be able to switch support to an anti-Pope if they dislike the current Pope enough.

 

[Arcvalons]

More Casus Belli! A CB to marry someone by force, basically steal a girl to be your wife if her father refuses you.A CB to release prisioner, can be any prisioner and not necessarily related to you. CB to take revenge against someone for making your wife/daughter a concubine...

Also I had a game in which as Norse I took France, but Germany and Italy kept squabbling amongst themselves without fighting back in any meaningul way. I think if you border infidels, depending on how large the borders, then you get substantial vassal opinion increases on something like "realm threatened" - it would basically make realms super stable if Muslims or Norse or Mongols threaten the very heart of christendom.

Finally, a Crusade mechanic in which each participant takes their occupied territory, instead of the winner taking it all.

 

[Matthew Janes]

1) A Terra Incognita system somewhat similar to EUIV, especially with the upcoming Rajas of India. Limit the range at which you can send your council members or engage in diplomacy, or at least cause greater distances to make things take more time. Perhaps have your councilors to travel through the intermediate territories when sending them out.

2) More diverse handling of government types not historically landed aristocracies/feudalism. I would like it if the political mechanics of the Byzantines, the Islamic world, merchant republics, theocracies, Russia, etc., felt different. Admittedly, I'm not exactly sure how, but you can find a hundred plus threads with suggestions on this forum.

 

[Aedynn]

As countless people have mentioned, I think a must-have is the cadet system. It's just plainly weird to have a count who is unrelated to the king for 10 generations still considered in the royal dynasty. Here's some idea:

If a landed member is n-times removed from the head of dynasty, he will start a new dynasty. A naming rule could be A) naming after the title; such as in the case House of York; or B) naming after the given name, e.g., Hugh Robertian. Perhaps the name of the parent dynasty could be appended to the name of the cadet, e.g., Bourbon-Capet.

Prestige-wise, the cadet dynasty could carryover a certain percentage of the parent dynasty's prestige. After the cadet is formed, it's member no longer contribute prestige to the parent dynasty --- therefore giving more reasons for intra-dynasty marriage just like the Habsburgs did.

 

[LordNeidhart]

New mechanics in place for Empire creation; while I do not agree that only the Holy Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire should be the only true empires modeled in the game like some people, I do think that the act of creating and legitimizing an Empire-level title should be a tad more involved and developed than merely clicking the Create Title button. Here are a few (hastily thought out) suggestions:

Papal Sanction: For catholic nobles, the creation of an imperial title would imply being sanctioned by the Pope, complete with event chain related to your negotiations with both the Pope and the Holy Roman Emperor (who naturally would jealously defend the rights of being the true single Empire of Christendom, either diplomatically or through arms), and events related to your eventual crowning and possibly expansion of the Imperial Capital, represented by a modest tax boost on the capital itself and a prestige bonus. Naturally, were His Holiness to deny you such sanction, you could either coerce him to acquiesce through warfare, or go ahead without papal sanction while incurring in the wrath of your nobility.

Imperial Hierarchy: It would be beneficial for Empires to follow the proper de jure structure of the realm, with kingships formed and properly distributed; while also giving the Emperor more powerful vassals to worry about, obeying such organization would bestow upon the title small bonuses such as slightly reduced building costs and increased levies, as well as a slight taxation mallus representing inefficiency and corruption inherent in the system. Not following such system would inccur in a moderate relationship mallus with your vassals.

Imperial Crisis: A system similar to the one from Heart of Darkness where powerful quarreling nobles within an Empire can spark a political crisis, with neighboring nables opting to take sides and ultimately taking the issue to the Emperor's attention; succesfully defusing the crisis would lead to a relationship bonus and prestige gain; taking sides would alienate a share of your subjects, perhaps incurring in internal wars; and neglecting to take a side or defuse to situation, or failing spetacularly to do so, would inccur prestige loss, a small relationship mallus AND internal war.

On the flavor side of things, adding a LOT more clothing options would be very very nice, including an UI button for changing it (we have a barber already, so why not). Also, on a completely unrelated note, a new UI button that would bring up a small notebook-like window where you could take notes within the game itself. Surely you can do it yourself, but flavour people, FLAVOUR.

Also, perhaps the most important thing of all. Dearest Paradox: PLEASE PLEASE PRETTY PLEASE ADD WINDOWED FULLSCREEN MODE TO THIS GAME, YOU ALREADY ADDED STEAM INTEGRATION AND THAT WOULD PRESUMABLY BE A LOT HARDER.

 

[klopkr]

I love the hordes idea and after seeing the conquest of paradise stuff for EUIV i wonder if they could maybe be modeled similarly to the migrating option. Instead I would make it a cb in which you migrate to an adjacent county after winning a war and leave your last county. I think this would work fine up to duke level titles that can use the same cb to take a dukedom but you lose the cb if you gain more than one duke level title or more than say 5-6 counties (it's weird for whole kingoms and empires to just move, at that point you've solidified and will simply be expanding like the mongols.) I would also make it so you automatically lose the county furthest away from the county you migrate to or in the case of duchies, the entire duchy you previously had for the newer one.

The yurt idea is great and I would add possibly having other chiefs who you need to compete with to stay the leader of the tribe. (I'm not sure how historic it is but it seems right to me). These dynasties would work similarly to patrician elections but instead of age, money, and elections it's judged by your martial, prestige, and the raiding you've done. I would also add the ability to challenge the other chiefs to battle to prove your strength which would play out as events and risk your life or at least your eyes/arms/fun bits to prove yourself the dominant chief. Alternatively you could also declare war on other chiefs while you're a minor chief and you would use what ever warriors your yurt improvements give you to defeat them thus giving you a higher ranking and allowing you to get closer to becoming the next main chief. The second suggestion might not work so well though since unlike patricians all your armies would show up in the main county so idk how it would be handled. I wouldn't allow yurts to become over powered but i would allow them to add plenty of martial and prestige boosting "buildings" to construct. Maybe you construct it through prestige instead of money and it give you slight martial boosts, piety, prestige gains, and adds to the amount of prestige you gain in battles.Having this yurt comes with a price though and obviously you would lose it if you change culture, change religion, or reform. Also if you hit king or empire level you no longer have "elections" but all other chiefs stick around and get claims on your title when you die, they will also be enraged if they are unlanded in a kingdom/empire level and will be prone to starting factions to make themselves the new leader if things aren't going well.

 

[Knotz]

1. Meh.

2. Meh.

3. Meh.

4. Meh.

5. Yes pls.

 

[Labrynian Rebel]

Tributary states (exclusive to Mongols)
Rota succession (exclusive to Russians)
More event chains that involve your immediate family and your relationships with them.