How about an African expansion?

[unmerged(652342)]

^^^ During the entire 4-year development cycle for Europa Universalis III, Paradox did NOTHING to make North America interesting to play in. So by your logic Paradox thinks gamers in the U.S. and Canada don't have money. But yeah, obviously they're only adding Jewish Khazars to CKII because of the massive audience of Jewish Khazar gamers.

- 1) you can "rolleye" all day long but main point of SoA was catolicism and not jews, who actually was implemented really shitty. 2) loled about 'Murricah in game about european renaissance and enlightenment.

As i said - Pdox cares only about things that well known for "common" type players like for example those popular LetsPlayers, who not know shit about history of surrounding world.

 

[Miaow]

Uh, what? Ethiopia's under the "Horn of Africa" section, not the "East Africa" section, if that's what you mean.

Indeed, I only looked at the section directly linked. That said, the paragrahph on Ethiopia mostly focuses on how they re-established

How do you know that? I'm pretty sure that there was sea trade along the Red Sea during this period; that the Arabs didn't suddenly forget how to sail their dhows when they approached Aden. And I'm pretty sure that there were Muslims in both Egypt and Ethiopia and both were making the not-long trip to Mecca where they would have talked to each other.

Because the Egyptians, unlike the 10th century Ethiopians, left us many historical records. The figure of two decades I gave may not be accurate, but that is the estimated delay between when Aksum fell and when its fall is recorded by Egyptian authors, who mention that it had occured many years before they heard and wrote of it. Of course, the date of Aksum's fall is not known with precision, so error is possible (the dating of the Arab chronicles and other writings, though, is seldom in doubt). In fact, were it not for these Arab sources, the fall of Aksum would simply be an event shrouded in Ethiopian legends. There are no Ethiopian sources on it, other than wildly contradictory myths.

As to the Hajj and trade: certainly Muslims from the Horn of Africa did make Hajj, but Muslims from inland Ethiopia wouldn't have done so as frequently, moreover Islam had almost certainly not progressed as far into the Ethiopian heartlands as it later did. Arabic language litterature is AFAIK not known from this period in Ethiopia, indicating a language barrier etc. Also, just because the distance seems not great on a modern map, does not mean it wasn't a long and dangerous journey, especially as there wasn't any established pilgrim route from inland Ethiopia (that we know of, at least).

Aksum had once controlled thriving ports but the emergence of new Indian Ocean trade routes going down to the Swahili coast allowed the Arab traders to ignore it completely, in favour of routes entirely on Islamic control. The main exports of Ethiopia, ivory and slaves, were even more abundant further South in East Africa, and these regions were being Islamised and even colonised by Arabs and Persians, unlike Ethiopia.

Aksum itself was in an economic and cutural downwards spiral, which is why we know more about that kingdom in ancient times than during the Middle Ages. By the 8th century, Ethiopia was simply no longer part of the regular Indian Ocean trade circuit. There would almost certainly have been some contact between Southern Arabia and Ethiopia, but nothing on the scale of previous centuries.

 

[Talq]

No, just no.

Contacts between Europe and sub-saharan africa were minimal for a reason. Pushing the scramble for africa back from 1850 to 1050 just encourages people with a confused sense of history.

 

[remagynona]

If you're going to add-on a sub-Saharan Africa region, then you would probably need to add the rest of India as well and create a second sea zone for the Indian Ocean. That would be a major undertaking. Maybe it would be warranted for CK3, but that's a pretty significant undertaking for something that would be sold for only $10-15. I think it would be better just to focus on what's already on the map. Do an expansion for Nubia/Ethiopia and Miaphysite Christians. Since the West Africans are already there, something should probably be done to make people want to play them.

 

[Cardinal Sin]

I like the idea of calling it CK2: Heart of Darkness.

Anyways, I know there is some resistance, and I would not even advocate adding a heckload of new counties. Not even the inclusion of Kanem-Bornu is necessary, though I would like it - I think some more room around East and West Africa (similar to the VIET setup) with some more routs through the Sahara would be very nice.

Here are the things that could be tackled apart from adding a very judicious, not over-inflated amount of provinces:

-Navigable Red Sea and Atlantic down to Senegal
-Miaphysite flavour + decisions
-Shia flavour + decisions (after all, big in Egypt and Morocco)
-Shia schools of thought
-West African flavour
-New East African religion + flavour
-Beta Israel/Semien
-Baqt (agreement between Nubia and Egypt not to attack each other, quite wonderfully implemented in PB via province modifiers) - look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baqt
-In the vein of the Baqt, perhaps implementation of tribute payments?
-Republic of Oran

And as this expansion would have quite some Muslim content, the patch to go with it could include a decadence overhaul

 

[sirrichard]

Add a malaria modifier on the provinces in Africa for Europeans.

 

[BritNavFan]

Because the Egyptians, unlike the 10th century Ethiopians, left us many historical records.

OK, so 9th C Ethiopia is poorly documented. 9th C west Africa is worse. Still, the game is primarily 1066-14xx, and towards the end of those periods documentation getting better. I don't think expanding the map should be a priority. But adding new cultures to the existing areas is realistic, improves gameplay, and is reasonably easy; dividing "Mali" and "Abyssinia" into multiple kingdoms is realistic, improves gameplay, and is easy (IMO Yemen should be its own kingdom too); splitting the four- and six-county duchies into one-, two-, and three-county duchies would be easy/realistic/improve gameplay. The only thing that's relatively hard would be adding additional provinces. Paradox should add a placeholder for "unknown person" to the history files: we don't know who the wives of the rulers of 867 were but it's a safe bet that those rulers were married. And represent the baqt in some way; I like to simply alter the casus belli file so that holy wars can't be declared by or against Miaphysites. I don't think that's a huge project, and it would make those areas much more interesting to play in.

 

[unmerged(652342)]

OK, so 9th C Ethiopia is poorly documented. 9th C west Africa is worse. Still, the game is primarily 1066-14xx, and towards the end of those periods documentation getting better. I don't think expanding the map should be a priority. But adding new cultures to the existing areas is realistic, improves gameplay, and is reasonably easy; dividing "Mali" and "Abyssinia" into multiple kingdoms is realistic, improves gameplay, and is easy (IMO Yemen should be its own kingdom too); splitting the four- and six-county duchies into one-, two-, and three-county duchies would be easy/realistic/improve gameplay. The only thing that's relatively hard would be adding additional provinces. Paradox should add a placeholder for "unknown person" to the history files: we don't know who the wives of the rulers of 867 were but it's a safe bet that those rulers were married. And represent the baqt in some way; I like to simply alter the casus belli file so that holy wars can't be declared by or against Miaphysites. I don't think that's a huge project, and it would make those areas much more interesting to play in.

- pointless wall of text, Pdox will not do this ever.

 

[Tufto]

I think an expansion of Africa as a whole (i.e. including Morocco and Egypt) could be good. West Africa in particular would be neat if improved; would be a good opportunity to add some inland trade into the game.

But this should be one of the smaller, LoR sized expansions, I think.

 

[KmVoss]

I would be all over this expansion.

 

[DC123456789]

I would definitely buy a DLC giving more depth and flavour to Africa. Who knows, after the expansion it might actually be realistic and fun to play!
I do disagree with extending the map though. Pushing it south a little bit would work, in my opinion (giving more land to Mali, Ethiopia, and the Somalis), but Sub-Saharan Africa would definitely be way outside of the range.

 

[cybrxkhan]

@miaow: regardless of whether Ethiopia was involved in the region during this period, other parts of east Africa on the map were. The map currently includes the northern parts of Somalia, for instance, which were important to the Indian Ocean trade routes. There is also Nubia, which had some interesting interactions with Egypt as well as the Bedouin tribes that spread into it particularly towards the end of CKII's timeframe. There is also the fact that the current map fails to represent the coastal regions dominated by the Beja which harbored major port cities of the Red Sea such as Suakin and Aydhab who were also important transit sites for pilgrims going on the hajj.

I'm also against expanding the map down towards sub-Saharan Africa in general, and while I think adding in Kanem-Bornu and the Hausa would be cool I would be wary of that - however, even ignoring those, there is still plenty of room for new provinces and added depth and flavor in africa even with the limited space we have for now.

I like the idea of calling it CK2: Heart of Darkness.

Anyways, I know there is some resistance, and I would not even advocate adding a heckload of new counties. Not even the inclusion of Kanem-Bornu is necessary, though I would like it - I think some more room around East and West Africa (similar to the VIET setup) with some more routs through the Sahara would be very nice.

Here are the things that could be tackled apart from adding a very judicious, not over-inflated amount of provinces:

-Navigable Red Sea and Atlantic down to Senegal
-Miaphysite flavour + decisions
-Shia flavour + decisions (after all, big in Egypt and Morocco)
-Shia schools of thought
-West African flavour
-New East African religion + flavour
-Beta Israel/Semien
-Baqt (agreement between Nubia and Egypt not to attack each other, quite wonderfully implemented in PB via province modifiers) - look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baqt
-In the vein of the Baqt, perhaps implementation of tribute payments?
-Republic of Oran

And as this expansion would have quite some Muslim content, the patch to go with it could include a decadence overhaul

For some reason your suggestions look a lot like a modified version of VIET's feature list.

 

[Miaow]

@miaow: regardless of whether Ethiopia was involved in the region during this period, other parts of east Africa on the map were. The map currently includes the northern parts of Somalia, for instance, which were important to the Indian Ocean trade routes. There is also Nubia, which had some interesting interactions with Egypt as well as the Bedouin tribes that spread into it particularly towards the end of CKII's timeframe. There is also the fact that the current map fails to represent the coastal regions dominated by the Beja which harbored major port cities of the Red Sea such as Suakin and Aydhab who were also important transit sites for pilgrims going on the hajj.

Agreed. Actually, the game could really do with a North African tribe system—alot of the power there was held by various tribal groups, not the dynastic empires we see in CKII (or rather, they held power at the sufferance and the tribal alliances). And a system that represents the shifting Berber tribes could also represent the Bedouin tribes in Nubia, and elsewhere in Northern African.

I mean, IMO, some parts of Africa really shouldn't have been there in the first place, but since we have them we might as well do something cool and interesting with them—and of course the Maghrib and Egypt were terribly important in the period, so they would justify work on the mechanics that affected them.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Agreed. Actually, the game could really do with a North African tribe system—alot of the power there was held by various tribal groups, not the dynastic empires we see in CKII. And a system that represents the shifting Berber tribes could also represent the Bedouin tribes in Nubia, and elsewhere in Northern African.

I'd pay full price for a North African/Berber DLC. (Though if that ever happens, which I doubt, it would probably be under some other DLC like a land trade DLC or something like that.) Berbers are kewl.


Sleight of Hand knows.

 

[Olaus Petrus]

I'll say no. The inclusion of the two bits of sub-Saharan Africa we have already leads to wildly unlikely scenarii like the Muslim blobs going into Ethiopia. The reason Ethiopia wasn't invaded by the Fatimids or Seljuqs etc was that it was isolated and had nothing to interest them. Adding more African stuff would mean either a big departure from history, which I don't like (YMMV, though that sounds more like Civ than CK to me), or areas of the map that are largely isolated from each other.

If they add more areas, they should go East, not South. Central Asia, Afghanistan, etc were just much, much more relevant to the existing CKII map than anything in sub-Saharan Africa.

The idea is to do the area properly this time, so that Africa is balanced and African nations can actually defend themselves against blobbing. And another reason why I suggested doing Africa is because it's already on the map, so you don't have redraw the map, but just change province borders. I believe that adding some new nations and more provinces would make the area more interesting for human players as well.

- 1) you can "rolleye" all day long but main point of SoA was catolicism and not jews, who actually was implemented really shitty. 2) loled about 'Murricah in game about european renaissance and enlightenment.

As i said - Pdox cares only about things that well known for "common" type players like for example those popular LetsPlayers, who not know shit about history of surrounding world.

Pardon my ignorance, but what are LetsPlayers?

 

[PerciXal]

Pardon my ignorance, but what are LetsPlayers?

People who make gameplay videos on youtube with commentary, usually they're popular for being funny, smart, etc and picking games that they know will get a lot of attention. (ex. chuggaconroy, theprussianprince, alfapiomega, diplexheatedhd)

Also, I too would enjoy a DLC improving Africa. Although the research would be a pain, I think it'd be worth it to tweak western/eastern Africa.

 

[farn]

I would like to see a literal expansion of Africa - the continent should be a lot wider than how it's represented in game. Arab peninsula as well.

 

[unmerged(133356)]

I almost think I'd rather see more east than south if the map were to grow.

 

[elvain]

The idea is to do the area properly this time, so that Africa is balanced and African nations can actually defend themselves against blobbing. And another reason why I suggested doing Africa is because it's already on the map, so you don't have redraw the map, but just change province borders. I believe that adding some new nations and more provinces would make the area more interesting for human players as well.

Exactly.
I think that Africa could be made interesting even with the current provinces (if little redrawn) or with only very few provinces being added.
I also agree that without the DLC would make sense only in broader DLC which could introduce:
- inland trade
- tribes (for Berbers, Arabs, Turks and all the steppe nations) with possibility of new settlement type - Oasis/tribe
- new events for West African religion
- tribute / tributary peace which would also work for Byzantines and eastern nomads
and several above mentioned great ideas

Generaly, you don't need this to have Africa improved.
I can imagine that even this little tweaking would make West Africa way more interesting - this suggestion works with 3-15 provinces being added to the whole region of Sahara and West Africa (while I think even 3 more provinces are enough, but for Paradox I can make new African setup with as many/few provinces they would wish).

Spoiler

comparison fo vanilla:

Duchies:

1066 cultures:

just to note, research on all this is already done, Paradox can just contact me and Cybr for rulers and cultural names respectively

Also, I too would enjoy a DLC improving Africa. Although the research would be a pain, I think it'd be worth it to tweak western/eastern Africa.

It might be, but if they check few mods, they have it done. The sources are available and last week I filled even 9th century Sahara and West Africa with dozens of historical tribes and characters

I almost think I'd rather see more east than south if the map were to grow.

I agree, but this is not about expanding map southwards, just making the current content more interesting and possibly filling some empty spaces in the Sahara.

 

[Olaus Petrus]

People who make gameplay videos on youtube with commentary, usually they're popular for being funny, smart, etc and picking games that they know will get a lot of attention. (ex. chuggaconroy, theprussianprince, alfapiomega, diplexheatedhd)

Also, I too would enjoy a DLC improving Africa. Although the research would be a pain, I think it'd be worth it to tweak western/eastern Africa.

Ah, those videos. Never really undestood the popularity. I rather use the little gaming time I have to play the games myself, instead of watching how others play and listening their annoying commentaries. Then again I'm member of the generation, which prefers written AARs rather than video commentaries. Interestingly that applies to everything else as well, I disilike watching news videos, but instead I rather read a well sourced and written article (unfortunately not that many are of either these days). Besides it's easier to read articles while taking short breaks from working than watching videos. Turning the volume on could disturb other people's work.